Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Don't get mad or your feelings hurt, but the main issue is that you have a few extra pounds if you want to be a commercial model.

This is one of the reasons the mirror shot isn't working.

Clients do not want to hire a model that they have to worry about what angle will she look good from.

"Plus size" is size 14 or so, and in porportion. You are not even approaching that size.

You would do well to get into a regular aerobics routine or hire a personal trainer.

Xtreme, how could you!!! Be so brutally honest, that is.

Diane, I think you are just right, but it does look like Xtreme knows what he is talking about, if you have a look at Xtreme's port you will see a stunning tit shot, I think you get one like this done before you drop 20Kg

Posted by XtremeArtists: 
Don't get mad or your feelings hurt, but the main issue is that you have a few extra pounds if you want to be a commercial model.

It's politically incorrect as hell of Xtreme to point this out, but he's right. Your portfolio has you in a couple of outfits and poses that would look SLAMMIN' (as GWC would say) if you dropped a few pounds. We're not talking "get anorexia" here, just that you look like you've got the kind of body that would turn into miles of hot curves with a bit of aerobics.

mjr.

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
It's time to change the rules of the game, and the more women step up to bat on the field, the more they're GOING to change.

How do we begin to change them? By saying that we're happy with how we look...we ain't changin' it for nobody...and if they don't like it, it's their loss.  Then we move on and don't look back!

I think the best way to change a system is from within.

For the most part, men and women in magazines are idealized versions of reality. I know there are unfair pressures on men and women to live up to these unrealistic examples of human beauty. Most of the top models don't look as good as their magazine covers when you take away the makeup, lighting, and Photoshop.

If consumers stop responding to unrealistic images, companies will stop using them to market themselves. I don't see this happening in the near future, but I suggest that is an area you could explore if you really wanted to make a change.

There is an outlet for alternative models who don't fit into the mainstream model mold, but honestly her photos do not look like she is going for an alt look, and I don't think alt modeling would pay as well as commercial print, even though commercial print pays less than fashion.

For the look she seems to be going for from her port, I think she would have the potential to get more paying work if she lost a few pounds. It's just an honest observation.

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
DO NOT listen to Xtreme and Marcus!

Hey, thanks. Really. What a dumb-ass thing to say - here's someone asking for advice and commentary and a couple people give it. Just because you don't like what we had to say you're gonna wade in and say "DON'T LISTEN TO THEM"?? Maybe next you'll tell her not to ask for advice and only to listen to you.

I spent most of high school trying to overcome anorexia because I wanted

Why don't you start a separate thread about your unfortunate personal problems? If I recall, this was the thread where she publicly and openly asked for advice about modelling. Spewing a bunch of politically correct rhetoric about patriarchy is so 80's.

Bottom line is that the models who make money are the ones that match what's popular. Me and Xtreme are unfortunately, in this case, acting in the role of the "harsh voice of reality."

mjr.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
What't the point in following the rules, making yourself as average as possible so that nothing is inoffensive.  Yeah, you'll fit right in with the pack.  Do what you want, but all my favorite models stand out as completely different from the industry standards.

I agree standing out from the pack is important, but one should do it in a manner that is benefitial.

Just for discussion, can you give examples of some of your favorite models that stand out?

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
Hey, I didn't wade in...I stomped in. Make no mistake about that.  And no, I AM NOT using this as a forum for my personal problems.  I'm explaining the influence that these impossible industry standards and your "harsh voice of reality" have on an impressionable young female mind. You're telling me this is "so 80's"! I would refer to your comments and attitude as positively Neanderthal.  Personally, I'd rather be stuck in the 80's!

I have already stated I agree with some of what you have to say from a societal point of view, but this is a modeling forum.

I think you are bringing a personal adjenda with you that is not really about her career. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that a model is judged on here looks. If a model can't cope with that, she can't cope with being a model.

I happen to think that you are kind of sexist by ignoring that men have the same pressures.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
Ok, thanks for putting me on the spot.  I think I was all concept and no reality there.   I'm wracking my brain though.  Nadja Auermann has a very disproportionate body but she uses it to her advantage by becoming a leg girl.  How about the incredible shrinking Sophie Dahl before the industry gave her a complex?  I loved her earlier images.  Marina Dias who doesn't hide her tattoos.  I want to say Karen Elson but I must as much as I want to say she is different, the fact is everything about her is pretty much industry standard.

Ok, I'll hide now.  I'm just some high school graduate hack with a love of fashion magazines.

You are onto something with your photos. Keep shooting.

Posted by GWC: 
Man, I can't believe all the HEAT that is going on here about this!!! Look, here's the deal: when I'm shooting for Perfect-10 magazine, I gotta be shooting perfect-10's right? It's as simple as that. You gotta have SLAMMIN' curves, a big round butt, a little bitty waist, and nice natural b(o)(o)bies if you're gonna be a Perfect-10.

Moonsbreath, hey, you wanna be a Perfect-8 or Perfect-9, be my guest!!! It's all good. The line for TFP with the GWC forms to the left!

GWC

I know I don't have any experience to back it up.  I haven't had a paying photography related job in my life.  However I have to believe that taking pictures of those perfect 10s over and over is just boring.  I'd rather shoot a girl who is energetic and works with the camera, can take instruction and understand what I want.  If she happens to have a big ass, I'll just slap an art tag on it and charge extra.

Posted by Moonsbreath: 
Hey, I didn't wade in...I stomped in.

I noticed. Your response was rather "over the top" considering that Xtreme and I were about as tactful as it's possible to be about such a sensitive subject. I'm sure you feel that your rudeness is justified - obviously this is an emotional issue for you.

And no, I AM NOT using this as a forum for my personal problems.

Of course not. Which is why you immediately fired off with "I" "me" "me" "I" and references to your unfortunate past. Sure, you're not using this as a forum for your personal problems - that's why you didn't mention them, right? Right.

I'm explaining the influence that these impossible industry standards and your "harsh voice of reality" have on an impressionable young female mind.

I answered a question from a young want-to-be professional about her profession. Those "impossibe industry standards" as you put it are not impossible at all. Get real for a second, take a deep breath, and put your agenda down. The girl wants to be a model and she's 34-26-34 and weighs 122. I think both Xtreme and I suggested she drop a few pounds. Not become an anorexic crazed ranter - in fact I even said "we're not talking anorexia, here" and pointed out that she'd look fantastic if she could tighten up a little bit. Neither of us suggested that she looks terrible right now, did we? Neither of us said, "forget being a model, you're too fat" did we?

Now, will you calm the F- down and stomp back out?

mjr.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
Let me just add to that.  Perfect 10 is just that.  As much as we like to say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the truth is that perfection has been defined and patented and is being churned out on assembly line style.  It's boring.

To you, it may be boring. It depends entirely on the viewer, doesn't it? Who are you to say perfection is boring? Who are you to say you'd know perfection if the gods dropped 16 tons of it on your head?

Just like the rest of us, you're a person with your own tastes, experiences, and opinions. The reason that art works at all is because there are so many differences in the people who see it, and who create it, that there's something for everybody. The question of "perfection" in art is silly because it brings in all manner of ideas and ideals that are highly personal. I know one guy, for example, who thinks Michaelangelo's "David" sucks because he likes his men burly and hairy. Does "David" therefore suck? In one corner of the universe, it does. In another, it defines an ideal of perfection.

There is no one person who can act as an arbiter of perfection, so we are left with little more than a "societal average" of sorts. Today's supermodels would be considered consumptive by artists of the regency. The great beauties of the Renaissance probably stunk worse than a locker-room by today's standards, etc. Perfect-10 is as in-tune with today's "societal average" of beauty as Titian was of his.

It's what you expect.  There is nothing to it but what the photographer brings to the image.

You're just mouthing platitudes. I've seen a fair number of issues of Perfect-10 back when I had a subscription and I'll assure you that all the models are different. Some are pale-skinned, some dark. Some are angular, some curvy. Some are cool, distant, and reserved-looking. Some look at the camera with a cryptic expression in their eyes. Some stick their butt up at the camera. Whatever. There is tremendous diversity in one issue of Perfect-10 and I can prove it to you. How?

Easy: take an issue of Perfect-10 and tell me which of the models in it is your favorite. Aha. See? I got you. If you can have a favorite then they're different enough for you to notice; different enough for you to care. Perhaps, indeed, you find one more attractive because of, dare I say, an imperfection...?

I prefer a model who will bring something more.  Every shot should call for a different look not the same girl with a different name.

I think you're babbling mealy-mouthed garbage without thinking what you're saying. Perhaps, you think, you can play the "sensitive 90's male" to Evil Politically Incorrect Marcus' foil, or something. You're trying to disagree with a position (that Xtreme and I have willy-nilly taken) that you wish weren't true, so you're throwing up a smokescreen of fine-sounding platitudes that can't survive a second glance.

Want to talk about "perfection is boring" - answer me this: if it's boring then it's not truly perfect. And if it's perfect how could you ever tire of it?

The only thing that's boring about Perfect-10 is the kneejerk politically correct hand-wringing that it evokes in pussy-whipped males and body-image nazi females.

mjr.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
Nadja Auermann has a very disproportionate body but she uses it to her advantage by becoming a leg girl.

Nadja had a "perfect" 36-25.5-35.5 figure and weighed a "perfect" 119lbs.

You wouldn't know disproportionate if God dropped Rosie O'Donnell on your head.

mjr.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
I have to believe that taking pictures of those perfect 10s over and over is just boring.

Are you stoned, Dude? It RAWKS!!!

GWC

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 
Nadja had a "perfect" 36-25.5-35.5 figure and weighed a "perfect" 119lbs.

You wouldn't know disproportionate if God dropped Rosie O'Donnell on your head.

mjr.

Have you seen a picture of her? She's all gams and a smile.  Not that I am complaining.

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 
Now this is interesting. Now, we can talk about art...
mjr.

I won't pretend to know what I am talking about.  I say what I think when I see it.  I look at modern photography and 99% of the models bore me.  *yawn*   Sorry.  Perfection is boring I don't care how many different poses it takes.  What draws my eyes is someone doing something *different*.  I'm not trying to play the sensitive male.  Truth be told I tend toward the worst of the fashion extremes.  I like the emaciated glamazons that by their very nature of existing draw your eye and amaze you.  It may not be pretty, but it is definitely interesting.  Twiggy and Edie.  That's my thing.  I won't push it on girls though because I've found something interesting in everyone.

I'm sorry if I came off too confrontational.  I just like what I like.  I don't like seeing people be told they need to look a certain way though.  I say go with your strengths.

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 
You wouldn't know disproportionate if God dropped Rosie O'Donnell on your head.

I hate to take over this thread with our wrangling though.  If you want it to be a pissing match then why don't we talk in by private message so people don't have to listen to our crap.

Posted by GWC: 
Are you stoned, Dude? It RAWKS!!!

GWC

Sorry about that flooding.  We need a multi-quote. 

Nah, just drunk.  Yeah I like girls as much as the next guy.  Don't you ever get tired of formulas though?  I find myself more turned on by what the photographer does lately than what a model brings to the image.  So few models seem to have any individuality other than what you artificialy ascribe to them.

Posted by Steven Abel: 

Posted by GWC: 
Are you stoned, Dude? It RAWKS!!!

GWC

Sorry about that flooding.  We need a multi-quote. 

Nah, just drunk.  Yeah I like girls as much as the next guy.  Don't you ever get tired of formulas though?  I find myself more turned on by what the photographer does lately than what a model brings to the image.  So few models seem to have any individuality other than what you artificialy ascribe to them.

GWC stands for Guy With Camera. If you look at his ports and read his comments, you will find it very enjoyable. Don't get too worked up.

Posted by Steven Abel: 

Posted by Marcus J. Ranum: 
You wouldn't know disproportionate if God dropped Rosie O'Donnell on your head.

I hate to take over this thread with our wrangling though.  If you want it to be a pissing match then why don't we talk in by private message so people don't have to listen to our crap.

Diane has 3 posts. I don't see her returning to this thread any time soon. I actually think you and Marcus can find some common ground if you keep at it.

Posted by XtremeArtists: 
GWC stands for Guy With Camera. If you look at his ports and read his comments, you will find it very enjoyable. Don't get too worked up.

I won't.  I'm also not that up in arms about the weight issue.  Like I said I like the waif look personally which isn't even what you were suggesting to this model.

Maybe I came off too strong.  I just think that when you post a request for a critique to a public forum that if you average the suggestions what you will end up is an average suggestion.  Ugh.  Now that does sound like bs, but it is what I think I am trying to say.  I'm just not eloquent enough, nor experienced enough in the industry to defend or reinforce my rather fragile position.

Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Diane has 3 posts. I don't see her returning to this thread any time soon. I actually think you and Marcus can find some common ground if you keep at it.

Lol.  True.  I'm more than willing to try.  If he shows me wrong, then I'll admit it.  I'm stubborn though.  I actually thought when I first read his comments that we were agreeing.  Who knows.  We'll see where this leads. 

Posted by Steven Abel: 

Posted by XtremeArtists: 
GWC stands for Guy With Camera. If you look at his ports and read his comments, you will find it very enjoyable. Don't get too worked up.

I won't.  I'm also not that up in arms about the weight issue.  Like I said I like the waif look personally which isn't even what you were suggesting to this model.

Maybe I came off too strong.  I just think that when you post a request for a critique to a public forum that if you average the suggestions what you will end up is an average suggestion.  Ugh.  Now that does sound like bs, but it is what I think I am trying to say.  I'm just not eloquent enough, nor experienced enough in the industry to defend or reinforce my rather fragile position.

I think it's part of a healthy debate to raise as many sides of the issue as possible. There are always more than two sides. Marcus and I seem to be in agreement, but I don't see you and Moonsbreath arguing the same point, so we really have a few different sides being raised.

I'm not usually the voice of reason, but I've made an effort to try to be one in this thread because I know how sensitive an issue like this can be, and a person's feelings are at stake. I don't want to be overly critical of Diane, since there is no need to be.

Posted by XtremeArtists: 
I think it's part of a healthy debate to raise as many sides of the issue.

I'm not usually the voice of reason, but I've made an effort to try to be one in this thread because I know how sensitive an issue like this can be, and a person's feelings are at stake. I don't want to be overly critical of Diane, since there is no need to be.

No doubt.  It'd be boring if we all liked the same thing.  You remind me of Diane though. I feel bad since I have sort of taken over her thread and haven't said anything about what she asked.  The problem is I don't feel comfortable enough in my own knowledge to critique another.  Diane, I can say I really only like your thumb but don't know enough to say why.  Your other images really just don't grab me.  Someone metioned the one with your hand in your hair.  That is a little better, but is just flat and unemotional to me.  I say try other photographers especially if you have been using the same one or two over and over.  People think that modeling is just looking pretty but there really is a lot to it.  Sorry Diane.

Posted by Steven Abel: 
Perfection is boring I don't care how many different poses it takes.

Xtreme's right - we're saying the same thing. See, I think the difference is that where you see "boring perfection" I see infinite layers of detail. Nadja actually had nearly exactly the same measurements as Christy Turlington - are they both boring perfect clones? Hell no!

I agree with you that the difference is the great thing and that trying to turn all women into clones would be a disaster. But, see, I go a step beyond where I think you stand; I see that it's impossible for them to be clones - so the whole problem never materializes on my radar screen.

True story: I shot a perfect barbie-doll model, once. She was stunning. She was dumber than a bag of hammers. I got some great shots out of her but she had the personality of a bag of sakrete. I shot another perfect barbie-doll model, and she was totally different. Witty and funny, creative - she posed herself most of the time and turned her body into fantastic sculptures. Getting to work with her and getting to know her was a blast! You can't tell 'em apart from their weights (both about 115 lbs) or measures (both about 35B-25-35) or from the pictures but I sure as hell know them from eachother. Both of them are in my portfolio/gallery on http://www.ranum.com/gallery and no I will not name names.

Where you see Perfect-10 models as bland perfection, I know - I know that they're just a bunch of girls. And there's very little more on earth that's more wonderful than a bunch of girls. Some of 'em are probably stuck up. Some of them are bored/boring stoners. Some of them are probably incredibly bright and energetic. One of them is probably smarter than we all are, put together. One of them could probably kick our a**es.

So you get a passionate reaction out of me when you insult perfection as bland, because I see "perfection" merely as cooperating shades of color that sometimes harmonize and sometimes don't. One man's perfection is another's poison. I used to work with a guy who said "girls don't even begin to get pretty until they're over 250lbs." Really. OK... Not my thing. But who's to tell him what "perfection" is or isn't.

Where I'm coming from - yeah, sure, there are societal norms that say a "perfect figure is 35-25-35" (down from 36-26-36 in the 50's) - that's just some kind of average. My feedback to the young model was based on simple commercial reality, not a moral belief - the whole discussion got knocked into the weeds when miss anorexic came in swinging a baseball bat. There are commercial realities to modelling. For example, if you want to be a shoe model you pretty much need to be a size 6. The practical reality is that if they only hire models that are size 6 they can use the same pair of shoes on several models and not have to make a whole slough of sizes (a lot of the first run of a given shoe is handmade so they can do the photography before they slam in mass production in the sweatshops) It's simple commercial reality. I get grumpy (did you notice) when someone wants to make it a big political thing and calls me a "neanderthal" because they were anorexic in high school and it's somehow got to be my problem, because they can't take responsibility for their own choices.

But - models: I love photographing 'em all. I've shot asians, african-americans, indians (asian and american) redheads, blondes, whatever. Tall ones and short ones, skinny ones and curvy ones. Ya know what? I'll tell you a secret:
They're all perfect.

mjr.

Posted by Steven Abel: 

Posted by XtremeArtists: 
I think it's part of a healthy debate to raise as many sides of the issue.

I'm not usually the voice of reason, but I've made an effort to try to be one in this thread because I know how sensitive an issue like this can be, and a person's feelings are at stake. I don't want to be overly critical of Diane, since there is no need to be.

No doubt.  It'd be boring if we all liked the same thing.  You remind me of Diane though. I feel bad since I have sort of taken over her thread and haven't said anything about what she asked.  The problem is I don't feel comfortable enough in my own knowledge to critique another.  Diane, I can say I really only like your thumb but don't know enough to say why.  Your other images really just don't grab me.  Someone metioned the one with your hand in your hair.  That is a little better, but is just flat and unemotional to me.  I say try other photographers especially if you have been using the same one or two over and over.  People think that modeling is just looking pretty but there really is a lot to it.  Sorry Diane.

I agree with you here. There could be more emotion...more acting. She needs to be enjoying something for example, and we are just looking on... catching her in the moment.