Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Conceptually Black wrote:
no. It is done all the time. People shoot with minors all the time. You don't see them being drug before a court and burnt at the stake, it isn't a crime. Apparently, you and I have heard different stories.
You do things your way, and I'll do things mine.
Photographer
Captured Grace
Posts: 64
Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
Image K wrote:
You do things your way, and I'll do things mine. I agree with you completely, I'm all for this young lady pursuing a career in modeling, if she were in my area, I would even consider helping her out, ASSUMING she had a guardian to sign for her AND remain present during the shoot.
Photographer
CK2 Photography
Posts: 744
Sacramento, California, US
If you are emancipated and can provide the proper documents then the most I can imagine anyone needing to shoot with you is that you bring someone over the age of 18 to be present as a witness during the shoot.There's no law that stipulates age of individual being shot.But there are laws as far as releasing and contracts.So with that all in order you should be fine.The over 18 witness is because you are under 18 and emancipated or not the whole age thing can get sticky.
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16 raises hand...
Photographer
Andy Pearlman
Posts: 3411
Los Angeles, California, US
I wouldn't work with a minor without a parent or guardian present just on general principles. I want to make sure they know what we're doing whether I'm shooting something for which I need a model release or not. I've done a couple shoots where I've hired a minor and had their parent sign a model release, but if they're paying me, I'm not sure why everyone is worrying about model releases, unless its something I later determine I can sell, or for my portfolio (or perhaps a TF*, which I don't do anyway). I have a shot a few minors for their portfolio, but the parent was always there. When I give a paying client a document that authorizes them to reproduce the photos I've taken of them, there's nothing for them to sign, although I suppose maybe an acknowledgment that they understand what their limits of the usage are. The bottom line is, as others have said, if its a legal document that needs signing, it must be a parent or legal guardian, or as the OP asked, an emancipated minor (and I've never met one, so I don't know how they prove they are).
Just for yucks, here's a quick story about what can happen if you don't get a parental release when you need one. 20-something years ago I photographed a series of wet t-shirt contests on assignment for a magazine then-owned by Playboy. It was held at a local nightclub where the doormen checked IDs to make sure everyone who entered the club was over 21. Before each night's event, I met with all the contestants to have them sign a model release (and paid them a $1 each). Those who didn't sign would not get photographed, or if accidentally photographed (say in a group shot) not used. Almost everyone signed each week. After publication, it turns out that one of the girls who signed (and on the model release claimed to be over 18), turned out to be 17 at the time of the contest/shoot. She sued me, Playboy and the club, for $1 million, claiming defamation of character, illegal use of likeness, something about being a minor, etc. It was written up in the LA Times about how we abused her (no mention of her lying to me or the club about her age, nor the false depiction of her character. What I showed - her breast falling out of a wet t-shirt while she was drunk - was an accurate depiction of her character! Before it could come to trial, we reached a settlement. The club had long since gone out of business, Playboy paid her $10,000 to go away, and I gave her the film. (It still cost me $2500 in legal fees). So.... the lesson is, shoot minors ONLY with a parent or guardian on set, AND, keep your professional photo insurance policy in force at all times just in case they lie! (I had let mine lapse for a few months, and so had to pay the legal bills myself).
Photographer
c_d_s
Posts: 7771
Lubbock, Texas, US
Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16 I am. I have. I will again.
Photographer
Captured Grace
Posts: 64
Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
CK2 Photography wrote:
......bring someone over the age of 18 to be present as a witness during the shoot.There's no law that stipulates age of individual being shot....... The over 18 witness is because you are under 18 and emancipated or not the whole age thing can get sticky. I say again, EXACTLY!
Photographer
Gallery By Hal
Posts: 697
Springfield, Illinois, US
Captured Grace wrote:
I agree with you completely, I'm all for this young lady pursuing a career in modeling, if she were in my area, I would even consider helping her out, ASSUMING she had a guardian to sign for her AND remain present during the shoot. Exactly...
Legality, to my mind is only part of the issue involved in shooting a minor. Given the litigious mentality of our society today, and "Mrs. Grundy's" dirty, holier-than-thou mindset, it's far too simple for impropriety to be assumed where there is none. Having a parent/guardian's authorization to work with their child/ward is simple common sense.
Case in point, a couple years ago I went down to Lake Michigan to shoot the sunrise. I arrived well before dawn, got some beautiful shots of the sun coming up, and then spent a bit of time shooting some other views of the lake...
I didn't realize there was a playground behind me, but one of the mothers there saw me & my camera & called the police on me; I was obviously a predator of some kind & needed to be "handled." This, even though I was shooting landscapes & not even pointing the camera towards the park, let alone any of the children playing there.
Fortunately, the police were understanding, and after 45 minutes of rather intense questioning & showing them my images on my laptop, I was allowed to pack up my equipment & leave very much unarrested... That was a scene that could have gone the other way far too easily, so even though I'm amenable to shooting minors, there will be a parent/guardian signing off on the paperwork & supervising the session.
Life's just too short...
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Dove KT wrote:
If you're legally emancipated, you're legally and adult and can sign contracts. However, you'll have to find 1) a photographer who knows about emancipation and 2) who trusts your legal proof of emancipation.
And most will still want some escort, since being 16, emancipated or not, still leaves a photographer more vulnerable to possible misconduct or even child pornography charges. Child porn charges from a regular model shoot?? 
Cmon....that isn't even the question here. Simple solution anyhow.....don't shoot BS like that.
Photographer
AUTONOMY
Posts: 3674
Gallery By Hal wrote:
Most of us here on MM require our model's to sign an agreement of some kind, as well as a model release. Both of those documents are types of contracts, and while I don't know what Florida's laws may require, I do know that in Illinois only persons 18 years of age or older may contract on their own behalf...
Sucks, but there it is. Until you're 18 and a legal adult, the only way I can or will work with you is if you have a legal guardian to sign off on the paperwork... I suspect most of the rest of the photographers in this thread operate under similar constraints. Absolutely. I was recently approached by a 17 year old model and told her exactly what you just outlined. Anyone who doesn't follow the law-especially where minors are concerned-deserves what they get.
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected...
Photographer
Andy Pearlman
Posts: 3411
Los Angeles, California, US
One more thing. Here in LA of course, there are a lot of kids who want to be actors or models, and they need photos of course. LEGALLY, if they're being photographed for that purpose, there is supposed to be a specially licensed teacher or social worker on the set, same as if they were actually working on a real film or tv shoot. Now I don't know any photogs who actually do that (for headshot shoots) but its on the books. Of course on a real film/tv set, there are strong regulations about minors and their supervision that are more closely monitored
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Gallery By Hal wrote:
Exactly...
Legality, to my mind is only part of the issue involved in shooting a minor. Given the litigious mentality of our society today, and "Mrs. Grundy's" dirty, holier-than-thou mindset, it's far too simple for impropriety to be assumed where there is none. Having a parent/guardian's authorization to work with their child/ward is simple common sense.
Case in point, a couple years ago I went down to Lake Michigan to shoot the sunrise. I arrived well before dawn, got some beautiful shots of the sun coming up, and then spent a bit of time shooting some other views of the lake...
I didn't realize there was a playground behind me, but one of the mothers there saw me & my camera & called the police on me; I was obviously a predator of some kind & needed to be "handled." This, even though I was shooting landscapes & not even pointing the camera towards the park, let alone any of the children playing there.
Fortunately, the police were understanding, and after 45 minutes of rather intense questioning & showing them my images on my laptop, I was allowed to pack up my equipment & leave very much unarrested... That was a scene that could have gone the other way far too easily, so even though I'm amenable to shooting minors, there will be a parent/guardian signing off on the paperwork & supervising the session.
Life's just too short... I hear you.
All it takes is ONE minor that tells someone that you were acting inappropriately, or touched them, and your world would never be the same.
Photographer
Lost Viking
Posts: 1326
Ashville, Ohio, US
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... Then why don't you correct us, Mr. Expert...
Photographer
London photographer
Posts: 1499
London, England, United Kingdom
Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16 well im at the other end of the spectrum, what models are willing to work with a 16 year old?
in my opinion people look at the photos, not the birth certificate,
Photographer
Captured Grace
Posts: 64
Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... How is that accurate or fair?
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Grant-Thomas wrote:
well im at the other end of the spectrum, what models are willing to work with a 16 year old?
in my opinion people look at the photos, not the birth certificate, Start your own thread for that question.
Photographer
Photons 2 Pixels Images
Posts: 17011
Berwick, Pennsylvania, US
Kids walk in off the street all the time for senior portraits when they have not yet reached the age of majority. The photographer takes their money, takes their photos, gets them developed, and hands them over when the kid comes back to pick them up. And all with no parent signature involved. And in a lot of cases, no parent is present. It's no different than a kid walking into a store to buy some snacks and drinks. Is the clerk or store owner going to get arrested and thrown in jail if the parents didn't want the child to have the snack and drink? No. What about haircuts? Kids go by themselves all the time for haircuts. How is that different? And I'm not referring to the salons that have a lot of people, but what about the small shop where just the owner works there?
I understand the fear and paranoia surrounding children. Society today automatically assumes adults who deal with a child not related to them is a predator. Believe it or not, the law says otherwise. And yes, I have heard the horror stories of someone being accused or improper actions and being ruined professionally. The solution? Never be alone with the child. Don't do anything inappropriate or even near the line. Shoot in a public location with people around. There are always options.
Call me unprofessional, but I've shot kids without the parents present. In one case I was shooting with a girl (dad was there) and her friend came out to the park to see what it was all about. She wanted some photos too so she called her parents. The only thing the parents were worried about was how much it was going to cost them. When I told them it wouldn't cost anything, they couldn't wait to see the photos. If the parents had any other concerns, I wouldn't have shot her. How many times have you seen photos of kids in the newspaper out doing things kids do and you know there is no parent around to sign anything or even give permission. Yes, I know no release required for the newspaper but as for the rest of it, is it really any different? It's still an adult taking a photo of a child with no parent present or parental consent. It's the use that matters.
Emancipated minors in some cases can sign their own binding contracts. This doesn't cover every situation, though, and not in every state. However, if the OP were to shoot with me it wouldn't matter since I wouldn't use the photos myself (= no release required) but would give her permission to use them in her port. Simple and as such is no different than that newspaper photographer.
Photographer
Gallery By Hal
Posts: 697
Springfield, Illinois, US
Grant-Thomas wrote:
well im at the other end of the spectrum, what models are willing to work with a 16 year old?
in my opinion people look at the photos, not the birth certificate, Not a clue what the laws are in the UK, Grant, however, if you were based here in Chicago, you'd be facing the same issues and your models would be at risk of being hassled for "working" with a minor, no matter the actual propriety...
It's not fair, but life in these United States is pretty much centered around the old CYA game... Sucks big time, but there it is...
The good news is, that despite appearances, 18 years old ain't really all that far off for you or the OP. It just seems that way...
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45206
San Juan Bautista, California, US
I've shot with 15 year olds ..... ![https://mayhem-photos.s3.amazonaws.com/070425/14/462f9da2c928c_m.jpg]() ... although mom and big brother were near by. Plus I have a signed release. As for photographing minors, I've done so on many occasion in the past. Sometimes it's a paid gig where the parent hires me, sometimes it's not. I would probably shoot with the OP if she were near me. Really I base more on meeting with people before working with them than any thing else.
Photographer
Photons 2 Pixels Images
Posts: 17011
Berwick, Pennsylvania, US
Image K wrote:
I hear you.
All it takes is ONE minor that tells someone that you were acting inappropriately, or touched them, and your world would never be the same. True, but if you have someone else there with you then it wouldn't be a problem.
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... Image K wrote:
why don't you correct us, Mr. Expert... i understand, you don't know anything about the modeling or photography business, i can tell by your postings...
what i don't understand is why you come into threads and post...
effectively letting everyone else know, that you don't know anything about the business...
this girl can go to any mall in florida, walk in a photo studio..
not sign anything... and get her pictures taken, without a guardian present......
most of the folks here, don't need some agreement or modeling release....they dont even know what they are for...
so there ya go...
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... More smug, elitist remarks...
As expected.
Photographer
Gallery By Hal
Posts: 697
Springfield, Illinois, US
Image K wrote:
I hear you.
All it takes is ONE minor that tells someone that you were acting inappropriately, or touched them, and your world would never be the same. Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:
True, but if you have someone else there with you then it wouldn't be a problem. That's precisely one of the points we've been making...
Lots of us are willing to work with the OP (assuming she were in our neighborhood) but we aren't willing to do so without a parent or legal guardian present...
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....as expected... Captured Grace wrote:
is that accurate or fair? how many photographers do you know of..have been the victim of some vindictive teen calling the police, when nothing inappropriate happened on a shoot?
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... Image K wrote:
smug, elitist remarks...
As expected. smug, elitist...and accurate....as opposed to uninformed and ignorant of the industry...
ill take my chances with the community, appreciating me, more then you......
Photographer
Digitoxin
Posts: 13456
Denver, Colorado, US
Carly Cherie wrote:
I mean like, what if your emancipated Are you?
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... i understand, you don't know anything about the modeling or photography business, i can tell by your postings...
what i don't understand is why you come into threads and post...
effectively letting everyone else know, that you don't know anything about the business...
this girl can go to any mall in florida, walk in a photo studio..
not sign anything... and get her pictures taken, without a guardian present......
most of the folks here, don't need some agreement or modeling release....they dont even know what they are for...
so there ya go... This is what I love about Model Mayhem.
I can always count on some self-important elitist to correct me in a way that he can truly show the world his greatness.
I do not give advice in the forums, and never claimed to be the big-time "industry-insider" that you are.
I have voiced my way of doing business, as it has been recommended to me by photographers that I have asked, and mentored with.
If you have a point to make that is contrary to mine, I would love to hear it. I will give it it's due weight.
Stupid-ass, smug remarks only serve to show the world that YOU may not know as much about what you are talking about as you might think, and makes me wonder why YOU post in the forums.
Photographer
picturephoto
Posts: 8687
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16 Me, and every other full-time fashion photographer I know.
Photographer
Gallery By Hal
Posts: 697
Springfield, Illinois, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
how many photographers do you know of..have been the victim of some vindictive teen calling the police, when nothing inappropriate happened on a shoot? Doug,
I'm not trying to increase the drama or the adrenaline levels here, but in my case it was a mother who called the police on me when I was shooting landscapes a 1/2 block from a playground... .
The mother saw my camera & ASSUMED I was a predator stalking children in the park and I spent a very uncomfortable 45 + minutes trying to explain to the police who responded to her call precisely what I was doing there with a camera...
Can you imagine the additional drama I'd have been subjected to had I actually been shooting a minor that day with neither written authorization from their parent/legal guardian nor the parent/legal guardian present?
Is it illegal to shoot minors? No it is not.
Is there a public perception that anyone with a camera shooting a minor is up to something nefarious? Yes there is.
Taking steps to secure authorization from a legal adult prior to shooting a minor child is only prudent in this day and age... "Mrs. Grundy" lives, and sad to say, "John Law" is obligated to assume the worst...
Photographer
Andy Pearlman
Posts: 3411
Los Angeles, California, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
this girl can go to any mall in florida, walk in a photo studio..
not sign anything... and get her pictures taken, without a guardian present......
most of the folks here, don't need some agreement or modeling release....they dont even know what they are for...
so there ya go... While I agree with that in principle, this thread, like most here on MM, doesn't define parameters of the discussion. Shooting senior portraits in a mall is not the same as taking a 16 year old girl out for a bikini shoot at a secluded beach without anyone else there. I think common sense should prevail, and so in today litigious world, in the mall example, I would probably want to protect myself by always having someone, a parent or at least a studio staffer, in the room while I photographed a minor. Same as dentists and doctors these days.
BTW - Even though I do want a parent on set for a minor, if I were going to shoot a 16 year old girl in a bikini at a secluded beach and a parent wasn't available for some reason, I would still have a MUA and assistant with me.
Photographer
Vector 38
Posts: 8296
Austin, Texas, US
Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16 one of my agency clients will, on occasion, call & ask about sending over a young person [with parent/guardian] who is modeling/acting ...
... but no, i realize it's not every photographer who works with minors; typically it's for headshots or images for his/her Book.
~ fr
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Doug Swinskey wrote:
Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....
as expected... smug, elitist...and accurate....as opposed to uninformed and ignorant of the industry...
ill take my chances with the community, appreciating me, more then you...... I'm not involved in a community-appreciation contest with you, and couldn't give a rats ass how much you are appreciated.
I am honored to be in the presence of "the great, and the near-great".
If I am "uninformed and ignorant" in regards to "the industry", it seems I am not alone. Many people in this thread seem to have the same policy.
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Andy Pearlman wrote:
While I agree with that in principle, this thread, like most here on MM, doesn't define parameters of the discussion. Shooting senior portraits in a mall is not the same as taking a 16 year old girl out for a bikini shoot at a secluded beach without anyone else there. I think common sense should prevail, and so in today litigious world, in the mall example, I would probably want to protect myself by always having someone, a parent or at least a studio staffer, in the room while I photographed a minor. Same as dentists and doctors these days.
BTW - Even though I do want a parent on set for a minor, if I were going to shoot a 16 year old girl in a bikini at a secluded beach and a parent wasn't available for some reason, I would still have a MUA and assistant with me. Agreed.
Photographer
Parabellum Photography
Posts: 28
Bradenton, Florida, US
The OP has left the building, but the show goes on!
Photographer
Images By Joseph
Posts: 901
Naperville, Illinois, US
Only if parents are present at the shoot and sign the releases. Prefer and shoot mostly over 18 models.
Model
Dove KT
Posts: 592
Tacoma, Washington, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Child porn charges from a regular model shoot??
Cmon....that isn't even the question here. Simple solution anyhow.....don't shoot BS like that. Merely covering all bases, even the most extreme! If there was any nudity, even if not pornographic, the threat could be thrown around- media could make it ugly really fast, legal implications (or lack thereof) aside. That's pretty much a worst case scenario though- hopefully most people are actually decent and wouldn't try that.
Photographer
Captured Grace
Posts: 64
Vernon, British Columbia, Canada
Doug Swinskey wrote:
how many photographers do you know of..have been the victim of some vindictive teen calling the police, when nothing inappropriate happened on a shoot? It only takes one, besides, like I said earlier, I'm not opposed to shooting a 16 year old, just not without another adult present. If you want to that your choice, you don't hear me criticizing you for it.
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23400
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Images By Joseph wrote:
Only if parents are present at the shoot and sign the releases. Prefer and shoot mostly over 18 models. I agree with you.
However, Mr. Swinskey feels that those of us that feel this way shouldn't be posting in the forums, because we are dispensing bad information and paranoia.
Gotta love it.
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