Doug Swinskey wrote:

Doug Swinskey wrote:
lots of misinformation and paranoia....

as expected...

i understand, you don't know anything about the modeling or photography business, i can tell by your postings...

what i don't understand is why you come into threads and post...
effectively letting everyone else know, that you don't know anything about the business...

this girl can go to any mall in florida, walk in a photo studio..
not sign anything... and get her pictures taken, without a guardian present......

most of the folks here, don't need some agreement or modeling release....they dont even know what they are for...

so there ya go...

A little paranoia can be healthy, but too much ... not so good! 

Very true about a girl walking into a mall photo studio and paying for her images.  No problems there!  If people use common sense

I enjoy photographing young people and have found it very rewarding regardless if it's while I worked for Olan Mills or shooting freelance for myself.  I like to at least talk before photographing to get a feel for the person I'm about to shoot.  Institutional studios like Olan Mills does not give their photographers that luxury, but when I do have the time, I get images like these!

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:
Kids walk in off the street all the time for senior portraits when they have not yet reached the age of majority. The photographer takes their money, takes their photos, gets them developed, and hands them over when the kid comes back to pick them up. And all with no parent signature involved. And in a lot of cases, no parent is present. It's no different than a kid walking into a store to buy some snacks and drinks. Is the clerk or store owner going to get arrested and thrown in jail if the parents didn't want the child to have the snack and drink? No. What about haircuts? Kids go by themselves all the time for haircuts. How is that different? And I'm not referring to the salons that have a lot of people, but what about the small shop where just the owner works there?

Finally, some sense prevails!

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

no problem here.

Gallery By Hal wrote:

Image K wrote:
I hear you.

All it takes is ONE minor that tells someone that you were acting inappropriately, or touched them, and your world would never be the same.

That's precisely one of the points we've been making...
Lots of us are willing to work with the OP (assuming she were in our neighborhood) but we aren't willing to do so without a parent or legal guardian present...

I wasn't talking specifically a parent or legal guardian. As in the case mentioned above where the teenage walks into a portrait studio in a mall with no parent or guardian along, are they sent back out the door? Probably not because there will be other people present. You're in the open, easily seen. It happens all the time all over the country. The problem comes when a release is required. Or when the images are not age appropriate.

Doug Swinskey wrote:
how many photographers do you know of..have been the victim of some vindictive teen calling the police, when nothing inappropriate happened on a shoot?

Captured Grace wrote:
It only takes one, besides, like I said earlier, I'm not opposed to shooting a 16 year old, just not without another adult present. If you
want to that your choice, you don't hear me criticizing you for it.

so the answer is none?

Cherrystone wrote:

Start your own thread for that question.

im not terribly interested as i meant for it to come across as rhetorical anyway.
so end the negativity

Scott 3000 wrote:

I'm curious. Wouldn't this only be an issue for someone who plans or wants to use the photos for commercial purposes? If I understand it correctly, a release is not required for personal use (port, web, etc) or even to be used in a book, newspaper, etc. Anything that doesn't tie the image to an ad.

Your understanding is incomplete and for the most part dangerously wrong. In addition to issues over Right of Publicity there could be issues of Right of Privacy, and THOSE do NOT require any commercial use to be at issue.

Images By Joseph wrote:
Only if parents are present at the shoot and sign the releases. Prefer and shoot  mostly over 18 models.

Image K wrote:
I agree with you.

However, Mr. Swinskey feels that those of us that feel this way shouldn't be posting in the forums, because we are dispensing bad information and paranoia.

Gotta love it.

not accurate at all...spread all the paranoia you want...have at it..

just don't try passing off your ignorant stance as accepted industry standard...

Patrick Walberg wrote:
~snip~
I enjoy photographing young people and have found it very rewarding regardless if it's while I worked for Olan Mills or shooting freelance for myself.  I like to at least talk before photographing to get a feel for the person I'm about to shoot.  Institutional studios like Olan Mills does not give their photographers that luxury, but when I do have the time, I get images like these!

...and beautiful images they are, too, Patrick. 

However, and I may be assuming here, I don't think those three kids walked into your studio on their own, hired you to take their pictures & left with the prints.  I'm guessing you at least spoke with their parents at the very least...

Patrick Walberg wrote:

A little paranoia can be healthy, but too much ... not so good! 

Very true about a girl walking into a mall photo studio and paying for her images.  No problems there!  If people use common sense

I enjoy photographing young people and have found it very rewarding regardless if it's while I worked for Olan Mills or shooting freelance for myself.  I like to at least talk before photographing to get a feel for the person I'm about to shoot.  Institutional studios like Olan Mills does not give their photographers that luxury, but when I do have the time, I get images like these!

Very nice, Patrick. And I agree with you 100%. Caution, not paranoia, is what should prevail.

Personally, I'm not here to make a living at model photography. And I'm not trying to get published. As such, I honestly don't need releases most times unless I'm going to put the images in my port. Saying that, I'm not even sure I would need it then since I make no money from this aspect of photography so I'm not sure it could be considered commercial use. If so, the IRS owes me lots of money for my "losses" and business expenses I would think.

RickMartin wrote:

Finally, some sense prevails!

I need to screen shot this one. I've never been referred to as having sense before.

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Real Professionals...
No hang ups about escorts ( I am  Paid to do a Job, regardless of the number of Folks around me, I control my work environment.)
No hang ups about parents or under aged people either.
No hang ups about Age, A model is a Model is a Model.
I don't shoot nudes nor Implied and It isn't in my nature to do so.
So no worries about anything of that nature.
As long as the PARENT/legal GUARDIAN is present nothing to worry about.

Besides it is the parents who are also paying for the shoot.
As long as they are involved from the beginning No issues against shooting minors.

E

Image K wrote:

Gallery By Hal wrote:
Most of us here on MM require our model's to sign an agreement of some kind, as well as a model release.  Both of those documents are types of contracts, and while I don't know what Florida's laws may require, I do know that in Illinois only persons 18 years of age or older may contract on their own behalf...

Sucks, but there it is.  Until you're 18 and a legal adult, the only way I can or will work with you is if you have a legal guardian to sign off on the paperwork...  I suspect most of the rest of the photographers in this thread operate under similar constraints.

Actually Federal law states that you must be 18, however, it also states that is a minimum and can be overseded by an individual state. There are a few states that do not consider you an adult until you are 21.  We all have to be very careful about the directions we go with our profession. As far as "an adult supervision and parental consent" as stated by someone else...there is very good reason to actually view and record the parents ID as well. Especially if the parent is not in attendance of the shoot.

Doug Swinskey wrote:

Images By Joseph wrote:
Only if parents are present at the shoot and sign the releases. Prefer and shoot  mostly over 18 models.

not accurate at all...spread all the paranoia you want...have at it..

just don't try passing off your ignorant stance as accepted industry standard...

I will express my "ignorant" opinion on the subject (whether you like it, or not), and you can express whatever your policy is.

The people reading the thread can make up their own minds.

It seems that you are vastly outnumbered on this thread by people that seem to think like I do. Maybe we are all "paranoid"? I doubt it, but we are certainly comfortable in our paranoia.

I'm sure that, given your high level of "appreciation" in the community, and the fact that you are the "industry insider", they will adopt your information, just because you say so.

Gallery By Hal wrote:

...and beautiful images they are, too, Patrick. 

However, and I may be assuming here, I don't think those three kids walked into your studio on their own, hired you to take their pictures & left with the prints.   I'm guessing you at least spoke with their parents at the very least...

Yep!  You got that one right! 

When I get some nice shots like that, I have the parents sign a release even if they are paying so that I can at least display their images for future work. 

With teenagers, I'm going to need to establish some line of communication with the minor aged subject (models in some cases) before I start shooting away.

Carly Cherie wrote:
I mean like, what if your emancipated

Then bring me the COURT papers THAT state YOU are A LEGAL Adult.

I have had too many little kids try that with out the PROPER LEGAL DOCUMENTS .
or in other words , They TRY to Lie, but when asked for the paperwork I never hear back from them.

You should have more then just the Court papers for that , IN MANY states you are still required to have special permission from the state to be allowed to work. Child Labor laws are specific in each state in regards to this, I'm not a lawyer but have to deal with these issues once in a great while.

Gallery By Hal wrote:
That's precisely one of the points we've been making...
Lots of us are willing to work with the OP (assuming she were in our neighborhood) but we aren't willing to do so without a parent or legal guardian present...

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:
I wasn't talking specifically a parent or legal guardian. As in the case mentioned above where the teenage walks into a portrait studio in a mall with no parent or guardian along, are they sent back out the door? Probably not because there will be other people present. You're in the open, easily seen. It happens all the time all over the country. The problem comes when a release is required. Or when the images are not age appropriate.

...or when you're shooting in your private studio with a nosy neighbor who saw a sweet young thing enter your "studio" and then calls the cops down on you;

...or when you're shooting on location - as I was when the police interrogated me when I was shooting landscapes 1/2 block from a playground.

A studio in a mall is a different situation from my own.  I don't own a studio.  I shoot at the model's location or in public venues, unless we decide to rent studio time somewhere...  Nor do I have staff - I'm the whole show. 

After my close encounter with "John Law" while shooting landscapes, I simply will not risk being accused of any impropriety with a minor, hence the steps I take to protect myself. 

A signed contract/agreement setting forth the session requirements and, if the model is a minor, a requirement that a parent or legal guardian be present for both the child's protection & my own...

Is my position really that difficult to understand?

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:

Very nice, Patrick. And I agree with you 100%. Caution, not paranoia, is what should prevail.

Personally, I'm not here to make a living at model photography. And I'm not trying to get published. As such, I honestly don't need releases most times unless I'm going to put the images in my port. Saying that, I'm not even sure I would need it then since I make no money from this aspect of photography so I'm not sure it could be considered commercial use. If so, the IRS owes me lots of money for my "losses" and business expenses I would think.

Thank you!  Lacking a "release" does not prevent me from showing some of my images too.   It's nice to have, but unless there is money involved, the risk of getting in trouble for just showing images or posting 'em!

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Anyone who knows which market is the money maker and wants to stay in business.


jim

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Thank you!  Lacking a "release" does not prevent me from showing some of my images too.   It's nice to have, but unless there is money involved, the risk of getting in trouble for just showing images or posting 'em!

I agree with you, Patrick.

But if some of us decide to cover ourselves with a release ANYWAY, I'm not sure that makes us automatically 'paranoid', or guilty of spreading "bad" or "ignorant" information.

Everyone has their own comfort level when it comes to doing business.

Grant-Thomas wrote:
as i am 16 am i allowed to shoot 15 year olds,
i am pretty sure that all of these people were 15 at the time of photos... they are just friends, not models though..

Beautiful shots.

Image K wrote:

Beautiful shots.

thankyou

but is it legal to shoot them? lol

Grant-Thomas wrote:

thankyou

but is it legal to shoot them? lol

Not being a lawyer, I wouldn't give you legal advice.

I would consult an attorney.

Personally, I would require a parent to be present for the entire shoot, and have them sign the release.

That way, I'm covered no matter what the particular legalities stipulate.

Although I would never represent my policy as "industry standard" (so not to offend the "industry insiders"), most (if not all) of the photographers that I mentored with, or have asked, or have seen post on MM, have had very similar policies.

I hope that is helpful.

Image K wrote:
I took this shot of Kai Lansangan (mm# 773996) at Red Rock Canyon when she was 16...

dave wright glam wrote:
I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting something like that with a 16 year old girl.

Have you ever walked on a beach?

Image K wrote:
Beautiful shots.

Grant-Thomas wrote:
thankyou

but is it legal to shoot them? lol

Let me add my compliments, as well, Grant.  Those are wondrous images and I've no doubt you've a fine career ahead of you if you're doing this kind of work today...  Very nice.

I don't believe any of us present in the thread are familiar enough with British law to advise you as to legality, but here in the States it would be perfectly legal for you to shoot those images.  I doubt anyone would even raise an eye in your direction...

Were I to shoot them in public however, while still legal, the current perception that any old fart with a camera in hand {me, for example} is a child predator could raise it's ugly head and cause me some discomfort from exceptionally close scrutiny by the Police.   

Not because it's illegal, but because I would be perceived as a threat to the minor, rightly or wrongly, and the Police would have to assume the worst about me until I proved otherwise...

Gallery By Hal wrote:

...or when you're shooting in your private studio with a nosy neighbor who saw a sweet young thing enter your "studio" and then calls the cops down on you;

...or when you're shooting on location - as I was when the police interrogated me when I was shooting landscapes 1/2 block from a playground.

A studio in a mall is a different situation from my own.  I don't own a studio.  I shoot at the model's location or in public venues, unless we decide to rent studio time somewhere...  Nor do I have staff - I'm the whole show. 

After my close encounter with "John Law" while shooting landscapes, I simply will not risk being accused of any impropriety with a minor, hence the steps I take to protect myself. 

A signed contract/agreement setting forth the session requirements and, if the model is a minor, a requirement that a parent or legal guardian be present for both the child's protection & my own...

Is my position really that difficult to understand?

No, not at all.

Gallery By Hal wrote:

Let me add my compliments, as well, Grant.  Those are wondrous images and I've no doubt you've a fine career ahead of you if you're doing this kind of work today...  Very nice.

I don't believe any of us present in the thread are familiar enough with British law to advise you as to legality, but here in the States it would be perfectly legal for you to shoot those images.  I doubt anyone would even raise an eye in your direction...

Were I to shoot them in public however, while still legal, the current perception that any old fart with a camera in hand {me, for example} is a child predator could raise it's ugly head and cause me some discomfort from exceptionally close scrutiny by the Police.   

Not because it's illegal, but because I would be perceived as a threat to the minor, rightly or wrongly, and the Police would have to assume the worst about me until I proved otherwise...

Nicely stated.

Gallery By Hal wrote:

Image K wrote:
Beautiful shots.

Let me add my compliments, as well, Grant.  Those are wondrous images and I've no doubt you've a fine career ahead of you if you're doing this kind of work today...  Very nice.

I don't believe any of us present in the thread are familiar enough with British law to advise you as to legality, but here in the States it would be perfectly legal for you to shoot those images.  I doubt anyone would even raise an eye in your direction...

Were I to shoot them in public however, while still legal, the current perception that any old fart with a camera in hand {me, for example} is a child predator could raise it's ugly head and cause me some discomfort from exceptionally close scrutiny by the Police.   

Not because it's illegal, but because I would be perceived as a threat to the minor, rightly or wrongly, and the Police would have to assume the worst about me until I proved otherwise...

thankyou

is it illegal for people to pay me to shoot them, if those people are 26?
lol,

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

I've worked with a couple of talented teen age models (current avatar of Michelle Mai is one of them)

Both are posted in my portfolio

Age is never an issue.

Image K wrote:
Nicely stated.

Thank you. 

Once burned, twice shy and all that...

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Ones who's parents would be at the shoot as well.

Doug Swinskey wrote:

i understand, you don't know anything about the modeling or photography business, i can tell by your postings...

what i don't understand is why you come into threads and post...
effectively letting everyone else know, that you don't know anything about the business...

this girl can go to any mall in florida, walk in a photo studio..
not sign anything... and get her pictures taken, without a guardian present......

most of the folks here, don't need some agreement or modeling release....they dont even know what they are for...

so there ya go...

Image K wrote:
This is what I love about Model Mayhem.

I can always count on some self-important elitist to correct me in a way that he can truly show the world his greatness.

I do not give advice in the forums, and never claimed to be the big-time "industry-insider" that you are.

I have voiced my way of doing business, as it has been recommended to me by photographers that I have asked, and mentored with.

If you have a point to make that is contrary to mine, I would love to hear it. I will give it it's due weight.

Stupid-ass, smug remarks only serve to show the world that YOU may not know as much about what you are talking about as you might think, and makes me wonder why YOU post in the forums.

Where did you answer his post instead of getting on your soapbox

Grant-Thomas wrote:
thankyou

is it illegal for people to pay me to shoot them, if those people are 26?
lol,

Again, I'm in the US and you're not, Grant - I simply don't know what the laws are in your part of the world vis-a-vis a minor's employment. 

Assuming you're at least 16 years old, here in the States you are elegible to apply for and hold down a job. 

I don't believe you would be legally entitled, however, to obtain a license and the necessary insurance to open a business until you're at least 18 years old.  Same old reason, you need to be able to contract in your own right, and a minor cannot do so.

My guess is you'd have to have your parents open the business & they could then put you on the payroll as a minor employee, but that's just a guess...

Again, I'm not really qualified to discuss law in anything other than an "I think maybe" type fashion...

RGK Photography wrote:
Where did you answer his post instead of getting on your soapbox

He didn't pose a question, so I felt no need to answer one.

He came at me with attitude, and I returned it in kind.

I never represented anything as "industry standard". I stated my way of doing business.

I much prefer rational discussions, but I can play it both ways.

Image K wrote:

Apparently, you and I have heard different stories.

You do things your way, and I'll do things mine.

I've heard stories about aliens, bet you have too. Guess you believe in them.
I've heard stories about Big Foot, bet you have too. Guess you believe in him.
I've heard stories about photographers being rapists, bet you have too. Guess we all are.
Where do you draw the line between fiction and reality?

Gallery By Hal wrote:

Gallery By Hal wrote:
That's precisely one of the points we've been making...
Lots of us are willing to work with the OP (assuming she were in our neighborhood) but we aren't willing to do so without a parent or legal guardian present...

...or when you're shooting in your private studio with a nosy neighbor who saw a sweet young thing enter your "studio" and then calls the cops down on you;

...or when you're shooting on location - as I was when the police interrogated me when I was shooting landscapes 1/2 block from a playground.

A studio in a mall is a different situation from my own.  I don't own a studio.  I shoot at the model's location or in public venues, unless we decide to rent studio time somewhere...  Nor do I have staff - I'm the whole show. 

After my close encounter with "John Law" while shooting landscapes, I simply will not risk being accused of any impropriety with a minor, hence the steps I take to protect myself. 

A signed contract/agreement setting forth the session requirements and, if the model is a minor, a requirement that a parent or legal guardian be present for both the child's protection & my own...

Is my position really that difficult to understand?

No, not difficult at all. I'm not sure where you go the idea I was having trouble understanding your point of view. If you had been arrested, then you'd have something to be concerned about. Police can be called on you for walking down the street if some nosey neighbor thinks you're up to no good. Are you going to stop going in public because of it?

People can sue for almost any reason anymore. Call the cops for any reason. Case in point, the girl that didn't get her chicken McNuggets called 911. I'm sure you've heard of that one. However, when the police are called they are required to at least check things out. Honestly, that lady that called the cops on you was at more risk of being cited by the police than you were.

And is my position really difficult to understand? Maybe it's the area I'm in. This is still small-town mentality around here. People are more open about things and more trusting. I'd be willing to bet that this issue is divided along lines related to that point. Nearer a bigger city I'd say you'd be more worried about those consequences and rightly so. I can understand your point and I'm not telling you that you are wrong to think that way. It's like smoking. It isn't against the law, but I won't do it. Ever. Others choose to and know the risks involved.