Stefano Brunesci wrote:
This again?

Yea... this has been WELL covered lately. What is it with these?






I hate starting the second page.

Imagebuffet wrote:
Wiping something on one's butt is not a way of showing respect in any culture of which I know, certainly not American culture.

Kevin Connery wrote:
No argument--but it's also a non sequitur (or possibly a strawman argument attempt), as nobody else proposed such a thing.

A photo on this thread portrays such a thing.

Kevin Connery wrote:
You'd earlier stated that you considered "consider the national flag a sacred symbol, and I would like to see it treated as a sacred object"; is that not insisting that others treat it exactly the same way you want it treated? That even if they treat it respectfully--to them--it's not acceptable to you unless they respect it the same way you do?

No, as I have not said anything about the way that I achieve this goal, only that this is the goal. Nor am I insisting that everyone consider my national symbol sacred, though out of respect, though should. Rather, the OP asked my opinion, and this is what I have provided, despite howls of protests that people who are offended by flag desecration have impure motives.

Imagebuffet wrote:
Wiping something on one's butt is not a way of showing respect in any culture of which I know, certainly not American culture.

You sure about that?

Yes.

Farenell Photography wrote:


http://www.flagtowels.com/

Are you claiming that any of these images portrays honor to the American flag? Are any of them even *of* the American flag?

Stephen Markman wrote:

And again, . . .the beauty of America is that different artists can disagree as to what --if any-- is an appropriate way to photograph this particular symbol of our country.

And the beauty of America is that I can state that I find it offensive, particularly when asked what I think of these practices.

Imagebuffet wrote:
Yes.

Ok, how about:



I'm sure this is giving the "honor" & "dignity" & "respect" the flag deserves.

But if you don't like that, if its so sacrilage or whatever, how come our own government promotes the flag as articles of clothing during times of need?

Ms Susie B wrote:
Ha! Have you seen my tattoo of an American flag???

I got that tat after 4 years in the army and I had graduated from airborne school.

Lots of soldiers don't find my tat disrespectful...

As you know: I'm a HUGE "Susie B" fan, but just wondering HOW MANY SOLIDERS have actually SEEN your tattoo!?!

18+
https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic … d=8091&ua=

Stefano Brunesci wrote:
This again?

Have you considered using the search function?

Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

The problem is, the search function on MM is beyond crap. I personally have seen at least two threads on this topic in recent weeks and I can't find either of them using the search function.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Ok, how about:



I'm sure this is giving the "honor" & "dignity" & "respect" the flag deserves.

You are? Really? Is that why you are posting it here? I don't think it is! I think you are just being an instigator, for the sake of being disruptive, because I sure don't see a real point to your post beyond that. Really, what does that photo do either to advance your position or refute mine? I sure don't see it!

Farenell Photography wrote:
But if you don't like that, if its so sacrilage or whatever, how come our own government promotes the flag as articles of clothing during times of need?

You appear to have the mistaken idea that anything with a red-white-blue color theme and some stars or stripes is automatically an American flag. It isn't.

Ms Susie B wrote:
Ha! Have you seen my tattoo of an American flag???

I got that tat after 4 years in the army and I had graduated from airborne school.

Lots of soldiers don't find my tat disrespectful...

As a military vet, I have to say that I've known a lot of military personnel who were uncouth, disrespectful and even some who were just plain disgusting. Simply telling me that several soldiers don't find a tattoo of an American flag on a woman's butt to be disrespectful really doesn't sway me to accept your position. I don't know who these soldiers are; I don't know how good of soldiers they are; I have no idea what makes them an authority on the respectful treatment of a national flag.

If you want an authority, try referring to the way the color guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier handles the flag, or the Presidential detachment.

Imagebuffet wrote:

As a military vet, I have to say that I've known a lot of military personnel who were uncouth, disrespectful and even some who were just plain disgusting. Simply telling me that several soldiers don't find a tattoo of an American flag on a woman's butt to be disrespectful really doesn't sway me to accept your position. I don't know who these soldiers are; I don't know how good of soldiers they are; I have no idea what makes them an authority on the respectful treatment of a national flag.

If you want an authority, try referring to the way the color guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier handles the flag, or the Presidential detachment.

Ok, ya see: you just HAD to keep going.
We all knew what your position was yesterday.
BUT, now you've gone and attacked Susie??  You were a vet? Congratulations.  So was my father. So was SUSIE!
You don't get to hold the monopoly on what is and is not proper behavior for miltary personnel or supporters of the military!
You said what you had to say.  Now, I'd suggest like Old Generals, you just fade away from this thread, before you really start to piss people off.  I consider your comments a personal attack on Susie and, while she doesn't need me to defend her honor or her patriotism, I'm here and she's not.
Your comments are insensitive and cowardly.
For the 100th time, this is still America and we are all allowed to disagree about what we do with OUR OWN art and with OUR OWN bodies.
Do not sit there and take shots at people for disagreeing with you and hide behind the rusted medals of your former military career.
You served your country and for that, I'm sure we all thank you.  That does not, however, make you a greater patriot (or a greater authority on "right" and "wrong") than any single one of us.

Imagebuffet wrote:
A photo on this thread portrays such a thing.

You, sir, are now lying. 

There is not a single picture in which a model is wiping her butt with the American Flag.  What you are trying to do is to get people to see your point by turning something backwards and making it appear as something bad.  A flag that is draped loosely around someones back and happens to rest around the butt is NOT wiping.  If you don't know the difference, then you should hire a nurse to come wipe you every day.

Thank you, come again.

Imagebuffet wrote:
As a military vet, I have to say that I've known a lot of military personnel who were uncouth, disrespectful and even some who were just plain disgusting. Simply telling me that several soldiers don't find a tattoo of an American flag on a woman's butt to be disrespectful really doesn't sway me to accept your position. I don't know who these soldiers are; I don't know how good of soldiers they are; I have no idea what makes them an authority on the respectful treatment of a national flag.

If you want an authority, try referring to the way the color guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier handles the flag, or the Presidential detachment.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Ok, ya see: you just HAD to keep going.
We all knew what your position was yesterday.

Yes, but people have replied to my posts since then.

Stephen Markman wrote:
BUT, now you've gone and attacked Susie??

Don't confuse disagreement with attack. I like Susie. I simply disagree with her on this issue, and I have stated my reasons directly and without insulting her.

Stephen Markman wrote:
You were a vet? Congratulations.  So was my father. So was SUSIE!

I know that Susie is a vet. She should be all the more aware of the truth of what I said about military personnel.

Stephen Markman wrote:
You don't get to hold the monopoly on what is and is not proper behavior for miltary personnel or supporters of the military!

But, you do?

Stephen Markman wrote:
You said what you had to say.  Now, I'd suggest like Old Generals, you just fade away from this thread, before you really start to piss people off.

Tell ya what, champ? How about you hold your own argument using rational points, and we will take the issue from there? Does that seem fair to you?

Or, you can pitch a hissy fit. Doesn't matter to me. Most disputes on the Internet resolve to the latter.

Stephen Markman wrote:
I consider your comments a personal attack on Susie

They aren't, and I'm certain that she knows better, White Knight.

Imagebuffet wrote:

Imagebuffet wrote:
As a military vet, I have to say that I've known a lot of military personnel who were uncouth, disrespectful and even some who were just plain disgusting. Simply telling me that several soldiers don't find a tattoo of an American flag on a woman's butt to be disrespectful really doesn't sway me to accept your position. I don't know who these soldiers are; I don't know how good of soldiers they are; I have no idea what makes them an authority on the respectful treatment of a national flag.

If you want an authority, try referring to the way the color guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier handles the flag, or the Presidential detachment.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Ok, ya see: you just HAD to keep going.
We all knew what your position was yesterday.

Yes, but people have replied to my posts since then.

Stephen Markman wrote:
BUT, now you've gone and attacked Susie??

Don't confuse disagreement with attack. I like Susie. I simply disagree with her on this issue, and I have stated my reasons directly and without insulting her.

Stephen Markman wrote:
You were a vet? Congratulations.  So was my father. So was SUSIE!

I know that Susie is a vet. She should be all the more aware of the truth of what I said about military personnel.

Stephen Markman wrote:
You don't get to hold the monopoly on what is and is not proper behavior for miltary personnel or supporters of the military!

But, you do?

Stephen Markman wrote:
You said what you had to say.  Now, I'd suggest like Old Generals, you just fade away from this thread, before you really start to piss people off.

Tell ya what, champ? How about you hold your own argument using rational points, and we will take the issue from there? Does that seem fair to you?

Or, you can pitch a hissy fit. Doesn't matter to me. Most disputes on the Internet resolve to the latter.


They aren't, and I'm certain that she knows better, White Knight.

Not White Knighting at all.  I made pretty clear my opinion of your position yesterday.
You made your opinion clear yesterday as well.
Defending Susie and her tattoo simply lent itself to the point I had been making.  And, it very clearly shows why you should probably just have quit while you were ahead. 

You made your peace.  You are a far greater American than all of us.  The sun rises and falls on your Patriotic home; and the rest of us are un-American (or even ANTI-American) sinners.

Somehow, you're the self-appointed standard-bearer for all that is right and good in the world. And for undertaking that great burden, we all thank you.

It appears, however, that for the rest of us - if we do not take issue with Susie's tattoo or find it UnAmerican or Unpatriotic or Disrespectful, . . . the terrorists have already won.

Seriously, give it a rest.  There is no one --and I mean NO ONE-- reading this thread that doesn't know how you feel on this subject.  And, ironically, no one is telling you that it's wrong to feel that way.  I am simply suggesting that for you to impose your beliefs on us and the way we choose to create art makes you appear arrogant.  For the record: I have never done an American Flag shoot (nor have I seriously considered doing one) but I sure as hell like the fact that I CAN!

My suggestion: rather than sitting here and lecturing us on how ungrateful we are to those who have fought to preserve our freedom, you go sit on your front porch.  There may be a sudden rain shower and you want to be able to get that flag down quickly!

Imagebuffet wrote:
A photo on this thread portrays such a thing.

Xandria Gallery wrote:
You, sir, are now lying.

No, I'm not, and you are arguing ignorantly.

Xandria Gallery wrote:
There is not a single picture in which a model is wiping her butt with the American Flag.  What you are trying to do is to get people to see your point by turning something backwards and making it appear as something bad.

I do consider it bad to portray the American flag wiping a nude model's bare butt, besides her bare thighs or crotch, but that is what we see in some of the photos on the first page.

Xandria Gallery wrote:
A flag that is draped loosely around someones back and happens to rest around the butt is NOT wiping.

Yes, it is. You should consult a dictionary.

Xandria Gallery wrote:
If you don't know the difference, then you should hire a nurse to come wipe you every day.

Many things other than nurses wipe.

Stephen Markman wrote:
You made your peace.  You are a far greater American than all of us.  The sun rises and falls on your Patriotic home; and the rest of us are un-American (or even ANTI-American) sinners.

Their you go, again, assigning some imagined offensive position to me just so you can knock it down. That's called a Strawman Argument, in case you didn't know.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Somehow, you're the self-appointed standard-bearer for all that is right and good in the world. And for undertaking that great burden, we all thank you.

It appears, however, that for the rest of us - if we do not take issue with Susie's tattoo or find it UnAmerican or Unpatriotic or Disrespectful, . . . the terrorists have already won.

Oh, now we have terrorists, too?

Stephen Markman wrote:
Seriously, give it a rest.  There is no one --and I mean NO ONE-- reading this thread that doesn't know how you feel on this subject.  And, ironically, no one is telling you that it's wrong to feel that way.

True; you are just telling me to keep it to myself, that it is wrong for me to voice my disagreement or objections or produce rebuttals, but you find it acceptable to do so, yourself.

Stephen Markman wrote:
I am simply suggesting that for you to impose your beliefs on us

How have I imposed my beliefs on you? How would that even be possible?

Imagebuffet wrote:
No, I'm not, and you are arguing ignorantly.

If anyone knows ignorance, it would be you.  Lying is a willful misstatement of fact.  You know full well that cloth resting up against someones skin is NOT wiping, by any definition.  You are lying.

I do consider it bad to portray the American flag wiping a nude model's bare butt, besides her bare thighs or crotch, but that is what we see in some of the photos on the first page.

Again, there are no such pictures and your attempt to assign "wiping" to any of them has shown you to be lying and not interested in honest discussion.

Yes, it is. You should consult a dictionary.

*I* do?  Wipe: to rub lightly with or on a cloth, towel, paper, the hand, etc., in order to clean or dry the surface of: He wiped the furniture with a damp cloth.

Having an image of a cloth draped on someone does, in no way, indicate that the model was wiping.  There was no cleaning or drying, just a VERY SIMPLE cloth resting on ones body.  If that is too difficult for you to understand, I will repeat that you may need help wiping after going to the restroom because you have no clue what you are talking about.

Imagebuffet wrote:
You are? Really? Is that why you are posting it here? I don't think it is! I think you are just being an instigator, for the sake of being disruptive, because I sure don't see a real point to your post beyond that. Really, what does that photo do either to advance your position or refute mine? I sure don't see it!

It is clearly apparent that you wouldn't know a sarcastic remark if it walked up & shook your hand.

Imagebuffet wrote:
You appear to have the mistaken idea that anything with a red-white-blue color theme and some stars or stripes is automatically an American flag. It isn't.

Which is exactly my point.

The American flag is nothing more than a symbol. The meaning BEHIND the symbol in no way substitutes the actual meaning itself (in this case, free speech). I or any other person has the right to use the American flag as drapery, fuel, toilet paper, or whatever.

The Supreme Court took up your concerns (or similar thereof) in Texas V Johnson. To summarize, free speech was more important that the protection of sacred symbols. Don't like it, write your congressional representatives & push them to amend the constitution because that's what its going to take to overturn it.

& just because you were a vet doesn't give you the exclusive right to be the self-appointed protector of the flag. No vets out there fights for the flag, they fight to protect the ideals that it comes to symbolize. They fight to protect their country. Most importantly, they fight because they'd be ashamed to let the person fighting along side them down. Symbols come & go, its the ideals that stand the test of time.

& yes, Susie B is not the only vet in this thread. US Marine 1996-2000 here. Gotta love sucking Kuwaiti sand. LOL

Imagebuffet wrote:
TheirThere you go, again, assigning some imagined offensive position to me just so you can knock it down. That's called a Strawman Argument, in case you didn't know.

Actually, NO.  I did not assign any imagined offensive position to you.  Your position is, of itself, offensive.
I properly stated your position, which is that YOU are correctly and properly honoring the American Flag and that those who do not do so, in the same manner as yourself, are disrespecting the American Flag.
(I think if you objectively ask everyone who's posted in this thread, they'd agree that this sums up your position)
I'm fully aware of what a Straw Man argument is.  If you'd care to match up your knowledge of 20th Century German literature, against my own, I'd be happy to indulge you.  Nonetheless, this was not a Straw Man argument
For it to have been a Straw Man argument, I would have had to have created some OTHER random position, attributed it to you and then knocked it down.

Imagebuffet wrote:
Oh, now we have terrorists, too?

Yes, hadn't you heard? And if we don't all get together and stone people with American Flag towels, bikinis, tattoos, neckties or any other art that YOU find offensive . . .then the Terrorists have already won.

:: plays Star Spangled Banner :: ** see footnote below

Imagebuffet wrote:
True; you are just telling me to keep it to myself, that it is wrong for me to voice my disagreement or objections or produce rebuttals, but you find it acceptable to do so, yourself.

No one told you to keep your opinion to yourself; not the first time you offered it, not the second time you insisted upon it or even the third time you shoved it down our throats.  I can't speak for other people, but I began to find it annoying when, after having PLAINLY and CLEARLY set forth your position on the issue, you felt the need to go on (and on and on and on) and, essentially, accuse the rest of the people posting that they were unpatriotic or disrespectful.
The OP asked for an opinion.  You offered yours.  Shouldn't that have been sufficient?
Nope.  Not for you.
You had to come back and demonstrate to the rest of us just how wonderfully patriotic and "American" you are.

Imagebuffet wrote:
How have I imposed my beliefs on you? How would that even be possible?

Well, you are ATTEMPTING to impose your beliefs upon us.  There could be no other explanation for what you have been doing here.
If you say it once, then you are merely telling us your opinion.  If you say it a second time, you may just be trying to clarify that we don't have any questions about what your opinion is.  When you say it a third time, it begins to look like you've got an agenda.  When you say it for the 12th time, you're either just trying to be gratutiously obnoxious OR you are very sincerely and fervently attempting to get some support from the masses or convert the masses.




** by the way, the great Patriot that you are, I assume you are aware that it is generally considered UN-patriotic to applaud the playing of our National Anthem.  The "performer" is there to lead us, not to entertain us.  Do you go around to baseball parks and basketball arenas and demand that people not clap??

Imagebuffet wrote:

I consider the national flag a sacred symbol, and I would like to see it treated as a sacred object. It bothers me when I see the flag treated as a toy, or otherwise profaned. I don't want to see the flag on the ground or against someone's butt.

I'm not a fan of "descration" but I support freedom of speech.  That said, the appeal of this shot is the story behind the flag.

Basically unretouched proof (18+, although mild):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/368 … 2486_o.jpg

Ms Susie B wrote:
Ha! Have you seen my tattoo of an American flag???

I got that tat after 4 years in the army and I had graduated from airborne school.

Lots of soldiers don't find my tat disrespectful...

Now they have.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rebel Photo wrote:
I have a low opinion of any American they would disgrace our country's flag that, among other things, draped the caskets of the fallen.

For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will NEVER know! I love how people hold up their family members who have served like it is supposed to give them a free pass.

Wild Ride Photography wrote:

For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will NEVER know! I love how people hold up their family members who have served like it is supposed to give them a free pass.

You've got to love the idiot who resurrects a 6 year old thread and responds like it's just yesterday. Doh!

Darren Brade wrote:

You've got to love the idiot who resurrects a 6 year old thread and responds like it's just yesterday. Doh!

Yeah, but then the second post in this thread complained that the OP didn't do a search for a similar thread.  Our fellow does a search, picks up and old thread, and then we complain when he bumps it!

Maybe best not to have a search function that goes back further than a year, and a filter that blocks new topics that go over old ground - but then the forums would be rather barren, I would imagine.

Kent Art Photography wrote:

Yeah, but then the second post in this thread complained that the OP didn't do a search for a similar thread.  Our fellow does a search, picks up and old thread, and then we complain when he bumps it!

Maybe best not to have a search function that goes back further than a year, and a filter that blocks new topics that go over old ground - but then the forums would be rather barren, I would imagine.

Sorry Ken, but I'm not going to comment for 6 years but rest assured, when I do in 2021 it'll be like we chatted just yesterday.

Darren Brade wrote:
Sorry Ken, but I'm not going to comment for 6 years but rest assured, when I do in 2021 it'll be like we chatted just yesterday.

I will look forward to it.  It would be nice if the family contacted me as often as this.