Posted by Angie Rae: 
I had a TFP shoot, in my bathtub, and the photographer refused to share any of them with me. I was pissed off! He was nothing but a GWC though, obviously...he had a hard on at our first shoot, lol, and kept making comments like he "needed a cold shower." Stuff like that doesn't really bother me, because I know all guys are like that, whether they want to admit it or not. I was just p.o.'d that he kept my bathtub pics. Oh, and BTW, I make my poor, inexperienced photographers look really good too...lol!,

LMAO...you go girl! ;;D

Posted by Angie Rae: 
Oh, and BTW, I make my poor, inexperienced photographers look really good too...lol!,

well normally i would keep my thoughts to myself, but since you brought it up..which images would you be talking about?..i ask because your profile images are so heavily PS'd, they border on being illustrations...

Posted by Angie Rae: 
Well, I am really not a big fan of your pictures either Doug, no offense, and your models are very heavily PS'd also! I like my pics to resemble something you would see 20 years ago, and am not a big fan of modern style photography. Plus, most of my pictures were unfortunately shot in garage with a lightbulb, so I did the best I could with them. I am sure lots of people love your photography style, but I am just not one of them, to be honest. To each his own. 

well i didn't say i didn't like you images, i asked where the images were, where you made the photographer look good..unless you did the PS work...you contributed to you image as any model does..but i want to see the poor photogs work that you made look good..theda said she's seen it and you say you done it..so i'd just like to see it as all..didn't mean to offend you..

Posted by DreamPretty?: 

Posted by CThomson: 
In reply to what I think was the quesion:

one was edited by you.

With a portfolio that has 40 images that look similar, it's had to figure which ones are the copies.

Whe I shoot any TFP, the model gets 100% of what I shot on CD.

Were there any other questions in there?

Long weekend, and I need sleep...

Were you talking to me? I counted at least ten pictures on the first page of my port that were edited by me...and believe me, I am being conservative! Usually Hugh is around while I'm working on the pic(s) and I ask him what he thinks.

You also said that my images look similar. That is because there are 5 at the most, out of 40, that were not taken by Hugh Jorgen. In my very limited experiences, I have found his performance to be vastly superior to other men's.

By the way, I didn't edit my avatar. Hugh took that picture during my recent shoot with John Sieber, who is a wonderful photographer and we had a very enjoyable shoot together. However, he has me waiting somewhat impatiently for some more copyrighted pictures. What can I say, he has the right to have complete control over his final product! I just wish it weren't so...

So I guess this whole thread was a way for me to shake my fist at the sky and say, "why am I so impotent?" Again and again I ask myself why I couldn't communicate with photographers better before the shoot. Because if I'm not satisfied it's because I didn't clearly state my conditions. However, I will doubtless continue to make mistakes, being a silly little girl.

I said I thought one of the images that were on both yours and Hugh's portfolio at the same time was edited by you.

I couldn't look at both side-by-side and compare, my bad.

I saw a large similarity in both portfolios; it was hard to decipher which was taken by whom without opening each file on both portfolio and checking the photo box to see...
I'm sorry to add to the confusion of this thread.

Craig

Posted by Jer Youngquist: 
This is a fascinating thread. I am a male photographer who prefers to collaborate with models rather than direct them, but sometimes that just isn't doable. Since most of my work is TFP I walk a fine line between meeting my own needs, and meeting the models needs (so she will want to work with me again). I usually outline what my concepts are, then ask what they are looking for and work out a shoot that can encompass both. I am proud to have a circle of models who work with me on a regular basis and try to keep them as satisfied with my work as possible.

What I typically do is put up a web gallery of the shoot and let the model pick her favorites so I can crop and shop it for them. Often they pick shots that I would not, in which case I send them as many of their "picks" along with my own. I sometimes shop photos months after the shoot, and always I try to make sure the model gets a copy. The web gallery shots are large enough that they can share them with people immediatley if they so desire.

What I run into many times is models want to use more shots than I can reasonably photofinish, so they post the "raw" images, which are typically flawed in some way (I shoot with a Canon 10d which I find undersaturates the images) so my work is not shown in its best light. In those cases, I try to shop the image and send a corrected copy, but many times the original image stays on the profile. In other cases, I have models who photoshop their own images, which makes for some interesting interpretations of my work.

I would much prefer to have the final say on how my photos look, and I sometimes wince to see how my images turn up un-edited or over-edited on their profiles, but I feel that it is a small price to pay. I figure the model is using the image as it best suits her.

I find that as a photographer, I also get much less attention to my work than my models do. I find that the model, not the photographer, is the recipient of the lions share of the praise, no matter how many hours I have spent smoothing skin, brightening teeth, or otherwise doing digital cosmetic surgery. Now I feel that it is my job to make the model look her best so I don't begrudge the extra attention, but I am constantly trying to make my style as unique as possible so that there is more curiosity about the creation of the image and not just the subject.

As to whether or not I as a photographer spank off to my own photos (and I do a lot of erotic and nude work) that is for me to know, but my hope is that perhaps other people are... heh heh...

Please was those hands before the meet and greet on the 6th, or remind me to re read this thread before shaking that thing at the end of your arm...

I share your feelings Jer, I know the market your talking about and I look at the advertising work you do with a different attitude now after meeting you.

I can respect what your going through and how to keep it interesting is the best part of shooting each day without killing somthing.
I would guess there are days you can just put a deck chair on the sidewalk in front of your studio and start shooting (with the camera) and get some great stuff.

Good 'ol Freakmont

Ahhhh

Posted by DreamPretty: 

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 

Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Worst advice ever.

Yes i dont use a soft box or a reflector

That's because you know how to use the light that is there already

Hugh Jorgen has been very patient with his models, allowing them (me) to edit photos and not complaining too much when the results are less than perfect. But I have learned to respect his copyright, and always ask his permission before copyrighting and uploading a photo. Sometimes he'll like it enough to put it on his own page. We help each other in many ways, not just in the editing room. A collaboration is the ideal setting for art to take place, in my opinion. A photographer cannot do it all alone, at least that's what the professionals tell us. Since all you GWC's can't afford a wardrobe stylist, make-up artist and set designer, why don't you accept a little help from me?

All my shoots are a collaboration.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 

Posted by Doug Lester: 
I've never come across a single one who was willing to stick around for the hours upon hours that I was post processing their images.

I cant get rid of them they move in and spend days or weeks here!!!

I've never had one express an interest in anything but the finished photos.

Posted by David Moyle: 

Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

You know, as a photographer, I would love to have models I can build a rapport with. Unfortunately, most of the ones I meet are excited to work with me when they have nothing in their portfolio, then, once I work with them, give them the images, and they post them, they tend to move on to the next big thing and I never hear back from them...

So skip the "rapport" lecture. Most models don't care about "rapport" in my experience, just who can make them famous. Let's face it, not many of the photographers and MUAs who make a model a household name are known to anyone outside the industry.

Amen!  Very well said.  If models cared about rapport, there certainly wouldn't be so many no shows and other forms of flaky behavior out there.  I've been fortunate to have had some meaningful communication, and even establish friendships, with a few women of substance who just happened to model, but most models only care about having their egos and bank accounts fed.

Posted by Dudley Watson: 
Well Dreampretty?, I'm glad you started this thread.  Shows how much difference in opinion, ideas and outlooks we all have.  I've contacted you in the past, and hope to work with you later this summer.  I'm also glad to see you are interested in working with the final product.  I belive model input should be based on the original compensation agreed upon.  In otherwords, if being paid, she may have not much 'wiggle' room, as the photographer is hiriing her for photos - the photographers use only.  For TFP/TFCD, then both parties should be in on the post production.  I sincerly belive, if the photographer is good enough, at least 80% of the final product should be already done in camera, and 20% in post production.  One of these days, I may achieve my standards...
Just kidding!  Seriously, it is nice to hear from the model as to what they want and are looking for.  Too many times, they(esp. with new, inexperienced models) are willing to settle for what they can get.  Question for you Dream:  When you first started modeling, did you simply take what you were given?  Or did you have an 'idea' from the start?  Communication is the key, and it too is an aquired skill.

Big smile...Hi! Well this is just another reason I would love to make it up towards Washington! The ironic thing is, I have always required some sort of compensation in the past, and depending on the photographer I got all or just a few photos in return. Recently I did my first "real" TFP shoot! And I was shocked when the photographer insisted on looking at the pictures on our television! Then, when Hugh put one of the cards in the computer so he could look more closely at an image...well the photographer almost flipped out right then and there! I just really have never experienced such covetousness towards images that I felt were mine as much as his. I mean, I found the beautiful location, I supplied the subject...but I don't get to spend time with the images. I just felt shut out and disrespected.

Oh, to answer your question. I have always done my best to clearly state my wishes, but I think I have often failed. Each photoshoot is a learning experience...in my life, however, I have often found myself doing things that someone convinced me that I wanted to do when I really didn't want that at all. I can't blame anyone but myself.

Posted by Jer Youngquist: 
This is a fascinating thread. I am a male photographer who prefers to collaborate with models rather than direct them, but sometimes that just isn't doable. Since most of my work is TFP I walk a fine line between meeting my own needs, and meeting the models needs (so she will want to work with me again). I usually outline what my concepts are, then ask what they are looking for and work out a shoot that can encompass both. I am proud to have a circle of models who work with me on a regular basis and try to keep them as satisfied with my work as possible.

What I typically do is put up a web gallery of the shoot and let the model pick her favorites so I can crop and shop it for them. Often they pick shots that I would not, in which case I send them as many of their "picks" along with my own. I sometimes shop photos months after the shoot, and always I try to make sure the model gets a copy. The web gallery shots are large enough that they can share them with people immediatley if they so desire.

This is a great idea, very creative. I understand the photographer's sentiments because I have worked with models and sometimes they choose the worst pictures as their favorites! Sometimes I try to convince them of another, distract them with a better picture...but if she likes it, and it's worth running through Photoshop, I'll give it a go. It can be very sad when a model disrespects a photographer's copyright...but I guess what I am trying to communicate is that models are disrespected too, and then disregarded because the photographer has the model release and legal rights.

I do believe that a photographer who spends time with the model after the shoot will have more success and the models will keep coming back for more. Admittedly, it is a fine line...but photography/modeling is not an easy job, so who is up to the challenge?

Hmmm...looks like a visit to Washington could really pay off!

Posted by DreamPretty:
Sadly, this is the response I expected...Regarding TFP shoots, however, does the same rule apply?

Yes, absolutely. Every time I've been talked into shooting a particular way by a model or stylist, the pictures have sucked. There has to be a direct link between the passion that is coming from inside and the finger on the trigger or what you have is naught, moot, void.

Posted by Jer Youngquist: snip

What I typically do is put up a web gallery of the shoot and let the model pick her favorites so I can crop and shop it for them. Often they pick shots that I would not, in which case I send them as many of their "picks" along with my own.

Do you use your website to post the images Jer?

I use the ACDSee tool called "SendPix" that post a link to the images with the original name of the images so the model can write down the numbers and email the "save" list to me.

Posted by BlacklistVisual: 
Yes.
Jerking off in the editing room.
That's what I do.
It's a wonder I find time for anything else.
I don't really have an "editing room", per se...
So I jerk off in the bathroom.
A lot.

you have a puter in the bathroom? what will they think of next...

Posted by CThomson: 

Do you use your website to post the images Jer?

Yeah... I use Photoshop to make a quick, browseable gallery with the full-size images in fairly high resolution then make a "secret" link for the models so they can browse at their lesiure...  This also helps when a model comes back weeks or months later and needs photos: I can just send them back to the link so they can browse/download as they please. The images are not print-quality, but certainly good enough for most uses on the web. This protects my "artistic vision" (such as it is) while still giving models full access to the fruits of their labors.

Big smile...Hi! Well this is just another reason I would love to make it up towards Washington!

Well, I live almost next to exit 125 in Roseburg.  Next time you head north...

Oh, to answer your question. I have always done my best to clearly state my wishes, but I think I have often failed. Each photoshoot is a learning experience...in my life, however, I have often found myself doing things that someone convinced me that I wanted to do when I really didn't want that at all. I can't blame anyone but myself.

Thanks!  You've given me some great working material when we meet. :-)  Now, from a photographers POV:  Some are very reluctent to hand over unedited images because it may not reflect the photographers 'best' work.  I've had models use some images of them I've taken, and, while good, I felt others were better.  Could just be a matter of two opinions.

Posted by mollie_lane: 
Pretty Dream...
I have teased, and been teased, laughed at, and with the photographers I have worked with, but have never been seriously hit on nor fielded sexually suggestive or sexually charged comments or looks.

well can i be the first? ill marry you soas to be honest in the eyes of God.... i can take pictures too with joint posession right!!!

Posted by DreamPretty�: 
Well I just got some great shots back from my latest TFP shoot, so I guess I was just being a little too paranoid. In any case, feel free to check them out and comment away. I'm done ranting it's time to celebrate!

This was a lot more creative way of getting people to look at your pictures than the dingbats that post messages saying "comments please."

Posted by frostbitesMN: 
hey, I can tell that some of your work are from a tent and done with a sony camera.

Eh? And, what's wrong exactly with a Sony camera? My shot of Imani on my port was actually one of my test shots with a Sony 4 megapixel camera. Shot in high resolution JPEG. 2240x I forget, and prints real well on an HP Officejet 6110 as an 8x10 (premium glossy photographic paper), and even better on pro equipment that prints at 150 dpi, or higher.

Someone on MM has a portfolio that has a phrase, "Don't underestimate the guy with the disposeable camera".

...oh yeah...my man Oliver Mendoza. He knows what's up. It's not the equipment, it's the operator that makes a difference.