Posted by Doug Swinskey: 
if you commisioned painter to do your portrait, would you have to have input on his brush strokes?

hopefully you hired a photograher for his skill. not an unedited image...

if you dont like our work..dont hire us..
if you think we'll be better with your input..take up photography and create your own images..

quite frankley, after the shutter is clicked..you job is over..

unless you marry the photographer..but then dont expect anyone else to accept what your husband accepts...

its my art..no one elses...

Sadly, this is the response I expected...Regarding TFP shoots, however, does the same rule apply?

Models: Do you "hire" most of your photographers? Or do they "woo" you through a series of emails and phone calls, promising beautiful photos for your portfolio, a collaboration of ideas, and flexibility regarding nudity?

Hugh has told me the same thing, it's the photographer's photos. So then why do I hear so many photographers whining about how they can't get any "experienced" or "high quality" models working with them? Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
But after the shoot, this "no models allowed in the editing room" bullcrap kinda rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I'm no amateur with photoshop, and no stranger to art. So why is it that I am not allowed in the editing room.

Because, you're the model.  You....model...that's it.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
Is the answer, perhaps, that the photographers are simply jerking off in there?

Only if you were naked and riding a giant inflatable duckie.

Posted by DreamPretty:
>>>I kind of feel like a girl who has had only boyfriends who come after two minutes of humping. I might have to turn to the other sex...

ok by me!

Posted by DreamPretty: 
Models: Do you "hire" most of your photographers? Or do they "woo" you through a series of emails and phone calls, promising beautiful photos for your portfolio, a collaboration of ideas, and flexibility regarding nudity?

Doesn't the answer to that depend on the photographer's work? It will be interesting to see the replies.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
What is attractive in a model's port is not necessarily attractive in a photographer's, and vis versa. Do you, a photographer, feel that a model has the right to portray herself in the way that enhances her portfolio the most, or are these YOUR PHOTOS and meant to only convey the feeling and artistic intent of the artist (i.e. the photographer, NOT the model)?

For test shoots, I always give everyone involved the choice of which photos will work best for their portfolios, even if I don't think they're the best photos.  You're absolutely right; what sells a model is not what sells a photographer (and the same goes for hair stylists, MUAs, stylists, art directors, etc.) so it would be immoral, or at least a disservice to my team to force my own decisions on them.

However, they still are, as you say, MY PHOTOS, and I will edit them.  It's not that I don't respect anyone's abilities in the darkroom, digital or otherwise, but editing is part of photography, and that's my job.  It doesn't matter how good I am with makeup, if I book a MUA, I'm not going to futz with the eyeshadow.  That's not my job.

EDIT:  Note, though, that I am open to suggestions.  Just as I expect that if I asked for a lighter shade of eyeshadow it would be done, if I'm asked for a particular crop or a certain level of saturation, I'll do it.  And if either the crop or the shade of eyeshadow is a bad idea, I'll expect to have a discussion about that and decide what to do from there.

Posted by Samantha Grace: 
I seem to work better with female photographers. They seem to for some reason see it as a team project. At least the very few women I have worked with.
But for editing I have had luck with photographers letting me edit. I normally decline, when I was in school editing was my least favorite part. I am more into natural photos.

Unfortunately I've never worked with a real female photographer, although my friend Bella Lily took one of my favorite photos in my model port.

As for editing, I've done some heinous things to my photos...but learned a lot and am grateful to the photographers who have allowed me to experiment.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
All your responses are valid...but the fact remains that the majority of "Internet Models" (a category that I must admit I belong to) have had similar experiences and feelings...

I'm not intending to sound glib, but if you don't want to be a model, don't model.  If you want creative control, do self=portraits or photograph other people or ONLY work with a photographer who is willing to work collaboratively with you from the outset.   But quite frankly, even if some of us are prone to do collaborative work, there are quite a number of horror stories out there (probably equal to the "why I need an escort stories")where it ends up in distaster.

I have one model that I work with that is a photoshop maven.  I plan on working on some collaborate projects with her, where she will do most of the PS work, under my direction with her input.  But we've been friends for years now and have built a great deal of trust between each other.  I would NEVER consider it otherwise.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

This is a sentence with which I could not agree more.  Good rapport will take all parties involved farther than what could be achieved with talent alone.

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Worst advice ever.

Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Worst advice ever.

Yes i dont use a soft box or a reflector

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Corollary advice to GWCs:

Pick up a softbox and reflector.  People will think you're experienced.

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 

Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Worst advice ever.

Yes i dont use a soft box or a reflector

That's because you know how to use the light that is there already

Hugh Jorgen has been very patient with his models, allowing them (me) to edit photos and not complaining too much when the results are less than perfect. But I have learned to respect his copyright, and always ask his permission before copyrighting and uploading a photo. Sometimes he'll like it enough to put it on his own page. We help each other in many ways, not just in the editing room. A collaboration is the ideal setting for art to take place, in my opinion. A photographer cannot do it all alone, at least that's what the professionals tell us. Since all you GWC's can't afford a wardrobe stylist, make-up artist and set designer, why don't you accept a little help from me?

Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

You know, as a photographer, I would love to have models I can build a rapport with. Unfortunately, most of the ones I meet are excited to work with me when they have nothing in their portfolio, then, once I work with them, give them the images, and they post them, they tend to move on to the next big thing and I never hear back from them.

Suddenly, when everyone else starts wanting to shoot with them, it's all about how much they can make. Which, I underrstand money is important. But, I was good enough to ask for a tfcd session when they were nothing but "aspiring" models, and good enough to keep my work in their portfolio, but suddenly when I want to work with them again and explore some new ideas with a model I already have a rapport with, they disappear.

And, I have routinely sat with both models and my MUA to go over their favorite images to make sure they get what they want, not just my favorites.

So skip the "rapport" lecture. Most models don't care about "rapport" in my experience, just who can make them famous. Let's face it, not many of the photographers and MUAs who make a model a household name are known to anyone outside the industry.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
Have you ever wondered what those guys are doing with your pictures? I mean, you have a great photoshoot and then...you never see the pictures. Or they give you a couple crummy ones and that's it. How many of you have gotten three blurry shots for your hard-working "TFP" shoot? How many of you have never even seen all the shots from most of your photoshoots?

Well I am a model/photographer who has had it with photographers who treat me like an amateur, some kind of object, no more valuable than a rose that wilts and dies the next day. If you feel the same way, come look at my photos. My avatar shot was taken the other day in a tent in my back yard. The model is a friend of mine. I gave her a cd of all the pictures afterwards, including the edited one that you see here. Does this sound like a worthy trade to you? Would you be interested in giving my Sony F717 a try? I would love to work with other like-minded models.

And a question to all photogs reading this: what percentage of my portfolio shots do you think were edited by me? Look at my photographer, Hugh Jorgen #652's profile and compare to my model profile #687...the hits and comments on two identical photos are completely different! What is attractive in a model's port is not necessarily attractive in a photographer's, and vis versa. Do you, a photographer, feel that a model has the right to portray herself in the way that enhances her portfolio the most, or are these YOUR PHOTOS and meant to only convey the feeling and artistic intent of the artist (i.e. the photographer, NOT the model)?

I tend to keep my mouth shut during a photoshoot. I want the photographer to feel comfortable and respected. I want him to be able to produce the best shots possible. But after the shoot, this "no models allowed in the editing room" bullcrap kinda rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I'm no amateur with photoshop, and no stranger to art. So why is it that I am not allowed in the editing room. Is the answer, perhaps, that the photographers are simply jerking off in there?

Don't take my sense of humor the wrong way. I love you all! I try to learn and value all of my experiences. But I kind of feel like a girl who has had only boyfriends who come after two minutes of humping. I might have to turn to the other sex...

I think you have a good idea. Switch to the other sex, and then drag out your box of toys and head into the editing room.

Posted by David Moyle: 

Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

You know, as a photographer, I would love to have models I can build a rapport with. Unfortunately, most of the ones I meet are excited to work with me when they have nothing in their portfolio, then, once I work with them, give them the images, and they post them, they tend to move on to the next big thing and I never hear back from them.

Suddenly, when everyone else starts wanting to shoot with them, it's all about how much they can make. Which, I underrstand money is important. But, I was good enough to ask for a tfcd session when they were nothing but "aspiring" models, and good enough to keep my work in their portfolio, but suddenly when I want to work with them again and explore some new ideas with a model I already have a rapport with, they disappear.

And, I have routinely sat with both models and my MUA to go over their favorite images to make sure they get what they want, not just my favorites.

So skip the "rapport" lecture. Most models don't care about "rapport" in my experience, just who can make them famous. Let's face it, not many of the photographers and MUAs who make a model a household name are known to anyone outside the industry.

You are right. But I am not that model. My photographer gave me the same sob story, told me he made models famous and then they dumped him. Well I didn't dump him. And so far, that's the best thing I've done so far, is not dump him.

Posted by David Moyle: 

Perhaps you aspiring photographers should consider building a good repore with your models, and maybe even GIVING them something in return for their time.

You know, as a photographer, I would love to have models I can build a rapport with. Unfortunately, most of the ones I meet are excited to work with me when they have nothing in their portfolio, then, once I work with them, give them the images, and they post them, they tend to move on to the next big thing and I never hear back from them.

Suddenly, when everyone else starts wanting to shoot with them, it's all about how much they can make. Which, I underrstand money is important. But, I was good enough to ask for a tfcd session when they were nothing but "aspiring" models, and good enough to keep my work in their portfolio, but suddenly when I want to work with them again and explore some new ideas with a model I already have a rapport with, they disappear.

And, I have routinely sat with both models and my MUA to go over their favorite images to make sure they get what they want, not just my favorites.

So skip the "rapport" lecture. Most models don't care about "rapport" in my experience, just who can make them famous. Let's face it, not many of the photographers and MUAs who make a model a household name are known to anyone outside the industry.

Been there done that...Just gotta shuck it as a learning experience...................

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 
"I dont need any help-I'd rather do it myself"

(:-------

You guys are lucky your on the Internet end and not on my End....Yikes this is tough on this old guy..

(:-----

That's what you get for hooking up with someone with beauty AND brains!

Posted by DreamPretty: 

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 
"I dont need any help-I'd rather do it myself"

(:-------

You guys are lucky your on the Internet end and not on my End....Yikes this is tough on this old guy..

(:-----

That's what you get for hooking up with someone with beauty AND brains!

And a Temper!!...lol

Been there done that...Just gotta shuck it as a learning experience...................

Oh, absolutely, and I still am happy for the experience and the different images, etc...but I get a tinge when someone suggests to me that building a rapport with a model is more important than...whatever....because I haven't met a model yet that was interested in building a rapport.

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector, or if you get ask to do a shoot over the net in a hotel room.
I would get out of there as quick as possible, unless the person is authentic and they are trying to learn, and you can tell because they will tell you they are just starting out and they keep asking you how your going, and asking for your opnion.

Wrong wrong wrong. I love shooting natural light indoors and outdoors. I abhor soft boxes and flat lighting. It's an artistic choice and makes me no less professional. Frankly, I'm of the mind that a desire to shoot Maxim style photography makes one boring, mainstream, and nothing short of a lemming. Still, regardless, everyone has the right to their own style.

Posted by DreamPretty: 
Have you ever wondered what those guys are doing with your pictures? I mean, you have a great photoshoot and then...you never see the pictures. Or they give you a couple crummy ones and that's it. How many of you have gotten three blurry shots for your hard-working "TFP" shoot? How many of you have never even seen all the shots from most of your photoshoots?

Well I am a model/photographer who has had it with photographers who treat me like an amateur, some kind of object, no more valuable than a rose that wilts and dies the next day. If you feel the same way, come look at my photos. My avatar shot was taken the other day in a tent in my back yard. The model is a friend of mine. I gave her a cd of all the pictures afterwards, including the edited one that you see here. Does this sound like a worthy trade to you? Would you be interested in giving my Sony F717 a try? I would love to work with other like-minded models.

And a question to all photogs reading this: what percentage of my portfolio shots do you think were edited by me? Look at my photographer, Hugh Jorgen #652's profile and compare to my model profile #687...the hits and comments on two identical photos are completely different! What is attractive in a model's port is not necessarily attractive in a photographer's, and vis versa. Do you, a photographer, feel that a model has the right to portray herself in the way that enhances her portfolio the most, or are these YOUR PHOTOS and meant to only convey the feeling and artistic intent of the artist (i.e. the photographer, NOT the model)?

I tend to keep my mouth shut during a photoshoot. I want the photographer to feel comfortable and respected. I want him to be able to produce the best shots possible. But after the shoot, this "no models allowed in the editing room" bullcrap kinda rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I'm no amateur with photoshop, and no stranger to art. So why is it that I am not allowed in the editing room. Is the answer, perhaps, that the photographers are simply jerking off in there?

Don't take my sense of humor the wrong way. I love you all! I try to learn and value all of my experiences. But I kind of feel like a girl who has had only boyfriends who come after two minutes of humping. I might have to turn to the other sex...

I think you and the Australian have great ideas. She want to have a relationship with her models, and you are thinking about switching to the other sex.

Switch to the other sex, and then drag out your box of toys and get into the editing room.

Posted by Marvin Dockery: 

Posted by DreamPretty: 


Don't take my sense of humor the wrong way. I love you all! I try to learn and value all of my experiences. But I kind of feel like a girl who has had only boyfriends who come after two minutes of humping. I might have to turn to the other sex...

I think you and the Australian have great ideas. She want to have a relationship with her models, and you are thinking about switching to the other sex.

Switch to the other sex, and then drag out your box of toys and get into the editing room.

LMAO ... Hugh, what do you think? Is their room in the bed for one more?

I just want to state for the record that I actually don't care whether a photographer whacks off in the editing room as long as he does SOME editing in there too!

This post was not meant to be taken literally at all. But I find it amusing to see the responses because, of course, there are those who do whack off to the pics. My intent was to reveal the failings of those photographers who either become too distracted to take a good photo, or too distracted to edit the photos, or both. I have this suspicion that men have difficulty with that "tension" that arises during the intimacy of a photoshoot. If they manage to control it in the studio or other shooting location, they may find it irresistable in the privacy of their own room. Nevertheless, I would find it worthwhile if they could get that part OVER WITH and move on to the editing. Or maybe that's the problem...once they're not horny anymore, there's no point in looking at/editing the pics.

But I am being too harsh, so I think I'll let this go and just read the responses from now on. I was venting a little here, but really did want to hear others' opinions. I am happy enough to let the pictures trickle in, as they do. I don't need to "control" the situation. Sometimes I do fantasize though. Yes, I do fantasize too...but luckily I have Hugh to bring me back to reality.

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen: 

Posted by XtremeArtists: 

Posted by digital_susie: 
My advice to models

Is if a photographer says he is experienced and your in a room, or a studio, and the photographer hasnt got a soft box, or if your with a photographer shooting outside and they dont have a reflector

Worst advice ever.

Yes i dont use a soft box or a reflector

Obviously I'm not a photographer but even i'll agree to that. I've had a photographer take pics of me where the only equipment he used was his camera. No extra lights or anything. At first I thought he didn't now what he was doing but the pictures ended up turning out real well. They are actually the two photos in my port of me in a green dress.

Posted by DreamPretty: 

Posted by Marvin Dockery: 

Posted by DreamPretty: 


Don't take my sense of humor the wrong way. I love you all! I try to learn and value all of my experiences. But I kind of feel like a girl who has had only boyfriends who come after two minutes of humping. I might have to turn to the other sex...

I think you and the Australian have great ideas. She want to have a relationship with her models, and you are thinking about switching to the other sex.

Switch to the other sex, and then drag out your box of toys and get into the editing room.

LMAO ... Hugh, what do you think? Is their room in the bed for one more?

I just want to state for the record that I actually don't care whether a photographer whacks off in the editing room as long as he does SOME editing in there too!

This post was not meant to be taken literally at all. But I find it amusing to see the responses because, of course, there are those who do whack off to the pics. My intent was to reveal the failings of those photographers who either become too distracted to take a good photo, or too distracted to edit the photos, or both. I have this suspicion that men have difficulty with that "tension" that arises during the intimacy of a photoshoot. If they manage to control it in the studio or other shooting location, they may find it irresistable in the privacy of their own room. Nevertheless, I would find it worthwhile if they could get that part OVER WITH and move on to the editing. Or maybe that's the problem...once they're not horny anymore, there's no point in looking at/editing the pics.

But I am being too harsh, so I think I'll let this go and just read the responses from now on. I was venting a little here, but really did want to hear others' opinions. I am happy enough to let the pictures trickle in, as they do. I don't need to "control" the situation. Sometimes I do fantasize though. Yes, I do fantasize too...but luckily I have Hugh to bring me back to reality.

At first I thought you were asking why photographers did not allow you to have editing control over the images that they had just paid you to pose for.

But then the title of this post had guys getting it off in the editing room, and you later compaired your feelings to being humped for only two minutes.

I think you opened your self up to some crazy making comments.