Death of Field wrote:
They shoot TF, they just don't want to shoot with YOU.

Spot on.

/thread

Sabina Kay wrote:
Since you hate models and everything we do so much, why don't you just stick to shooting nature and product?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

I don't hate anyone. Actually, I'm a very nice, well rounded guy once you learn how to worship me properly

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Well ain't that a bitch.

So they say... "I have to eat and pay rent." Is it a crime to ask 'eat what' ? Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ?

Or perhaps the reality is so harsh that you can't scrape enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?

Where is the line drawn, can anyone explain ?

I have a day job. I have a business. I have a band. All three of which I make money from. I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like "waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!". Do you REALLY want us to believe that you have no other options ?

Some food for a thought.

Who pissed you off, now?
Or Another model turned you down and now your pissed.

A lot of models just say they don't do TFP to weed out the photographers they do not want to shoot with.. Some even go as far as saying "Um yeah, gotta pay some bills". Just, so some photographers don't bombard then with questions, like "Why don't you want to shoot with me" or "How come you did not respond back"

R O  wrote:
I think he's just terrible at communicating. Not shooting tf is different than saying "I can't shoot tf because I have to eat, pay rent, etc." Similarly to a photographer saying, I'm sorry, I only accept paid work vs. I can't shoot tf because I have to pay for this lens, food for my kids, etc.

No one cares why you want to get paid. Either you do or don't, we don't need your reasons.

Or at least I think that's what he's getting at.

Yes. This, exactly.

Death of Field wrote:
They shoot TF, they just don't want to shoot with YOU.

couldn't agree more.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Some food for a thought.

There is just so much wrong with this original post.

Sounds like if you want to work with these models, you'll have to pay them.  If you don't want to pay them, either ask them to do TF* or find another model.  Why come here and spew your judgmental crap on all of us?

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Well ain't that a bitch.

So they say... "I have to eat and pay rent." Is it a crime to ask 'eat what' ? Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ?

Or perhaps the reality is so harsh that you can't scrape enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?

Where is the line drawn, can anyone explain ?

I have a day job. I have a business. I have a band. All three of which I make money from. I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like "waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!". Do you REALLY want us to believe that you have no other options ?

Some food for a thought.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
This thread is more about the silly reasoning that people project as to why they don't shoot TF. I'm not talking about those who don't shoot TF, but choose not to publicly disclose their reasons for not doing it.

I mean really, a full time freelance model travels constantly so the "other options" you elude to doesn't exist. Kind of hard to hold a job and travel at the same time. What "other options" are you referring to? Amway? Porn? Waitress?

The ones that do hold a job and model part time will be more selective who they shoot TFP with because they have limited time.

It models don't want to work with a photographer TFP, that says more about the photographers skills or lack or.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
...Why come here and spew your judgmental crap on all of us?

Easy now. The forums are sometimes used as a form of therapy or to simply vent,

I agree that it is everyone's prerogative to decide what kind of compensation they expect out of a shoot, but you must admit (nude photography excluded, because the titillation factor drives that market's finances more than "art"), some folks should be careful about asking for financial compensation.

At best, you may be short-changing yourself, at worst you may offend not only photographers that can help your career, but fellow models that have far more potential, but are realistic about their current chances.

Remember that not everyone wants to shoot nudes (all the time).

Sabina Kay wrote:
Since you hate models and everything we do so much, why don't you just stick to shooting nature and product?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

slaaaaammmmmm duuuunnnnkkkkk!

Looknsee Photography wrote:

There is just so much wrong with this original post.

Sounds like if you want to work with these models, you'll have to pay them.  If you don't want to pay them, either ask them to do TF* or find another model.  Why come here and spew your judgmental crap on all of us?

Some people have been known to start dumb posts in the past, it seems more like trolling but it is entertaining

Rich Burroughs wrote:
It's all about who needs who.

If David LaChapelle asked those same models to shoot TF*, they'd say yes.

If Kate Moss asked a photographer who said they don't shoot TF*, they'd say yes.

It's all relative.

Some models are more lax about who they'll shoot TF* with than others. Some will shoot clothed stuff for trade more than nudes. Models are individuals, they have different goals and different things they want for their ports.

The answer to rejection from models is to make your port better. Make better images and/or be more selective about what goes in your port. I'm speaking in general, not as a critique of your work.

Sometimes it's just about style though. If someone is shoot alt horror looking images, a model who wants fashion images might not do TF* with them no matter how good the photographer is.

Is this LaChapelle guy on Model Mayhem?

I agree and I have said this in the past - it doesn't matter how good you are, what matters is if a model feels she NEEDS your work in her port badly enough to shoot TFP with you. That is how you get models to work TFP with you, provide them with something they feel they need.

Jeff Fiore wrote:
Is this LaChapelle guy on Model Mayhem?

Hah, I doubt it I have seen a few pretty well known photographers here though.

I saw Todd Hido speak recently and he actually mentioned finding models on Model Mayhem, it cracked me up. He's pretty huge in the fine art world and does some editorial work, I know he's shot for Wired.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/16104

Death of Field wrote:
They shoot TF, they just don't want to shoot with YOU.

You cut real deep.

Augustine York wrote:
lol, what?

My first reaction.

Death of Field wrote:
They shoot TF, they just don't want to shoot with YOU.

My second reaction.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

You cut real deep.

Sometimes the truth cuts very deeply

Laura UnBound wrote:
Yes, I have to eat.
Yes, I COULD live on ramen and dollar menu
Yes, I COULD go work three other jobs that take up all my time and basically be forced to quit modeling

But I dont WANT to. Just like I dont WANT to TF with everyone who comes a'knockin. I dont get pissed when people dont WANT to pay me and dont book with me. Stop getting pissed people dont want to TF with you and dont book with you.

Noone is pissed. I'm actually laughing on the inside at the situation.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:

was right ? Isn't that the key word here ? If you are so damn successful, then why the heck did you stop ?

Because she is great photographer and makes a good living doing that. She still models if you are really nice to her...and you get to pay her for that too.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Well ain't that a bitch.

So they say... "I have to eat and pay rent." Is it a crime to ask 'eat what' ? Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ?

Or perhaps the reality is so harsh that you can't scrape enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?

Where is the line drawn, can anyone explain ?

I have a day job. I have a business. I have a band. All three of which I make money from. I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like "waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!". Do you REALLY want us to believe that you have no other options ?

Some food for a thought.

No, you come to MM and say things like you did.

Hardly an improvement.

Sabina Kay wrote:
Since you hate models and everything we do so much, why don't you just stick to shooting nature and product?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Nature sometimes fights back.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:

Noone is pissed. I'm actually laughing on the inside at the situation.

It sounds like a very butthurt laugh.

Death of Field wrote:
They shoot TF, they just don't want to shoot with YOU.

This is actually very accurate.

What drives models to do TF work is their view they are getting something in return.  It can either be your work is much better than what they have in their port, or in many cases starting out they just need the experience of modeling and to have a more diverse portfolio. 

After models shoot for a while they all have lots of good photos in their port if they work this site correctly.  So what I have found is they then do TF for one of three reasons:  1.  Your work is so good that they just want it in their port to enhance their port and hopefully get them more work.   2.  You offer them an honest opportunity to get published, which usually means something in print they can hold in their hand and show their friends, but can also mean being seen on a widely viewed internet magazine or site.   3.  Your MM port is widely viewed, or your activities are such that working with you will get them seen by lots of other photographers  or other people who they might get to network with and meet.

Maybe I missed reasons.  But basically, if they are not getting paid,  they want something in addition to nice pretty pictures.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Well ain't that a bitch.

So they say... "I have to eat and pay rent." Is it a crime to ask 'eat what' ? Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ?

Or perhaps the reality is so harsh that you can't scrape enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?

Where is the line drawn, can anyone explain ?

I have a day job. I have a business. I have a band. All three of which I make money from. I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like "waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!". Do you REALLY want us to believe that you have no other options ?

Some food for a thought.

ok, for an argument to stand all elements must be cohesive and have an element of truth, so lets break down your argument and the suppositions it has to see if any perhaps may not be the truth-

1. Models request money for their services because,  "I have to eat and pay rent." Is this true? 

1a. They ask for so much money they are living the high life? How much money would someone need to make off modeling to be able to "Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ? " Feel free to put in all the bills a normal household pays, then all the fees involved with being self employed like health insurance, than add an additional 30% for retirement fees, and divide by a possible 3 days a week 8 hour days to come up with the min a model would need to make to be "middle class."

1b. The unsaid question is how dare anyone want to make a full time living off modeling, modeling part time is fine. Would you rather have a hobbiest car mechanic who works from his house every other weekend fix your breaks or a full time certified mechanic?

For the most part full time models have better skills, raw talent, and attitude than part time models, therefor they can charge more.

2. You, the service requester have the right to say how well someone should live. Do you truly believe it is ok to tell people they should be "scrape(ing) enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?"

Should also tell people to get roomates, live in a trailer, and bath only at free clinics to save on water costs.  they could charge less if they did that.

3. "I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like 'waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!'. "

The above supposition is stating that without monetary payment you are creating photography at the level of a professional photographer. Do you believe this to be true?

When I go to a friend's house who is an amateur cook I can get a great meal. A lot of times the meal is ok or something I could make myself. Sometimes it is just plain awful. Even if the meal is amazing i don't tell the friend to become a chef and open a restaurant. There is a difference between an amateur and a professional.

The difference between a professional and an amateur photographer is an amateur can get really nice images with enough trial and error, but only a professional can guarantee to get great images in all circumstances. 

CONCLUSION- After breaking down the argument and the suppositions given i have reached a conclusion on the veracity of the claims made. All I can tell people on the board of MM is to try and do the same, based on all information given and taking into account who is making the argument.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:

Laura UnBound wrote:
Yes, I have to eat.
Yes, I COULD live on ramen and dollar menu
Yes, I COULD go work three other jobs that take up all my time and basically be forced to quit modeling

But I dont WANT to. Just like I dont WANT to TF with everyone who comes a'knockin. I dont get pissed when people dont WANT to pay me and dont book with me. Stop getting pissed people dont want to TF with you and dont book with you.

Noone is pissed. I'm actually laughing on the inside at the situation.

That's because you're a mega troll. You make posts constantly complaining about something.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:

I don't hate anyone. Actually, I'm a very nice, well rounded guy once you learn how to worship me properly

I don't know, you kind of seem like someone who is spoiled or something. You constantly complain about something and won't take the simple advice or put up or shut up (regarding paying to improve or work with those who will take what you've got).

And no, I won't worship someone who makes threads about:

Rant about models #1:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 039&page=1
Rant about models #2:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 869&page=1
Rant about models #3:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 064&page=1
Rant about models #4:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 629&page=1
Rant about models #5:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 132&page=1
Rant about models #6:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 803&page=1
Rant about models #7:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 123&page=1

Do you seriously not get (even from your posting in critique) that, obviously, models DO shoot TF, but just not with you. There are lots of TF nude models, but many more paid ones and you've got to have a fucking EXCEPTIONAL portfolio to get them to TF with you OR a great attitude, of which you (according to past critiques) have neither.

Your attitude fucking blows. Every post you make is about bashing models - the very same people you constantly bitch won't work with you.

See, now they won't even work with you for pay:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 432&page=1

Your lack of professionalism is painfully obvious.

Thread asking if a model would 'relieve' a male model's erection:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 974&page=1

Thread asking on advice on how to 'hook up' with a model which in and of itself isn't a big deal, people fuck all the time, but when considering the tone in which written, coupled with your other threads...
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 865&page=1

Thread praising model with spread shots (which in and of itself, again, isn't a bad thing, but when taken in context with your other threads...):
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 800&page=1

Thread about how you'd like to work with the world's strongest vag for 'art' purposes or whateverthefuck:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 885&page=1

Thread about your failure in communications and failure in obtaining a valid model release:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 535&page=1

Thread about how you failed to fulfill your contractual obligations even though you had at least two other options in which to do so:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 328&page=1

Added to all this, you have got to be the biggest troll since that Michael kid with all his exhibit threads,

Thread about trolling:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 284&page=1

Thread about horror stories:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 951&page=1

Define a GWC thread (You have only to look in the mirror, young grasshopper )
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 388&page=1

Thread asking for list of trainwreck threads on MM:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 266&page=1

Thread whining about friend requests (yes, you did it in this very thread, stand accused, sir):
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 590&page=1

Thread complaining about mod abuse - check the comment on all of your locked threads:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 255&page=1

Honestly, I don't even give a flying fuck if this post gets me brigged.

You are a GWC extraordinaire and it's a fucking head scratcher that your ass gets ANY models to work with you when considering all of your prior posts.

Orca Bay Images wrote:

Nature sometimes fights back.

Well, it could NEVER be worse than all us flaky models who want to eat and shit.

Orca Bay Images wrote:

It sounds like a very butthurt laugh.

Fuck, AP, the office must be backed up because of you.

Sabina Kay wrote:
Honestly, I don't even give a flying fuck if this post gets me brigged.

You are a GWC extraordinaire and it's a fucking head scratcher that your ass gets ANY models to work with you when considering all of your prior posts.

Keep it coming. You are sure on your way to catch up with me.

I do appreciate your fascination with my "thread work" on here though. A real proof that it wasn't in vain.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
I do appreciate your fascination with my "thread work" on here though. A real proof that it wasn't in vain.

So you were aiming for the reaction you got?
Wouldnt a deliberate admitted attempt to cause a reaction through various threads class you as a troll?

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Well ain't that a bitch.

So they say... "I have to eat and pay rent." Is it a crime to ask 'eat what' ? Caviar ? ...and eat where ? At "Le Bernandin" or "Russian Tea Room" ?

Or perhaps the reality is so harsh that you can't scrape enough change to get anything from a Dollar Value menu ?

Where is the line drawn, can anyone explain ?

I have a day job. I have a business. I have a band. All three of which I make money from. I can pay my bills and could care less if photography is not a profitable element of this equation. I make it work. I don't come to MM and say things like "waaaaah!... waaaaaah!....  Pay me !!..I can't pay my bills with pretty pictures!!". Do you REALLY want us to believe that you have no other options ?

Some food for a thought.

I suspect they don't "come to MM and say things" that you do.  Strongly suspect.

Sirensong wrote:

So you were aiming for the reaction you got?

I was aiming for a sane and organized discussion.

Jerry Coleman  wrote:

This is actually very accurate.

What drives models to do TF work is their view they are getting something in return.  It can either be your work is much better than what they have in their port, or in many cases starting out they just need the experience of modeling and to have a more diverse portfolio. 

Basically, if they are not getting paid,  they want something in addition to nice pretty pictures.

^^^^^^
Perfect  

Anyone can ask anything they want, as is incredibly evident on MM here (I lost count of all the models nodels on here who have mastered the mono-expression, captured by 2-4 entry-level-toters, who are apparently "Very Experienced" and therefore accepting "Paid Assignments Only"). The nature of photographs is that they truly DO speak for us.

Danny
http://dbiphotography.co.cc
https://www.modelmayhem.com/1983551

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:

I was aiming for a sane and organized discussion.

I think Sabrina gave you a very organized and complete discussion of your rant by putting it in context.  I think you need to realize when discretion becomes the better part of valor.

Jerry Coleman  wrote:

I think Sabrina gave you a very organized and complete discussion of your rant by putting it in context....

Perhaps you're wrong.