Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
In the last 12 months, I've done over 70 TF shoots to create content for my website.

I don't see any dwindling of interest on the part of models. If anything, there are more models contacting me than ever before.

KM

Not a fair comparison....(with mere mortals;))...But your profile also hints at models benefiting financially in certain circumstances.

astrographic wrote:
Whats the general opinion?

Trade shoots will happen when they are practical (distance, etc.) and mutually appealing.  I have set up trade shoots with fantastic models, and had inexperienced novices turn me down seeking pay.

That's their right, whatever you, or I, think is best for them.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
This is very much a UK thing. I hear this from other photographers based in the UK.

In time it will change again Chris. I remember the days, and it has been some years since I have seen one doing this, when certain models quoted "rates" for their modelling but wanted the "rate+[up to 50%]" if you wanted them to sign a release. And that in an environment where we don't need or require releases in the first place. DUH!!!

Once again, time to dust off this old quote   :

"Interwebs models tend, more than actual living, breathing, walking and talking genuine models in the real world, to be self-delusional hubristic narcissist wannabes with grandiose egos and sense of self-worth, who somehow divine that if they label themselves as a "model" they are, as if by magic, transformed into one."

Studio36

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've also been seeing a larger percent of new models who want pay almost right off the bat compared to a few years ago.  I think the many rate threads which give the impression that earning $100+/hour is typical help drive that attitude.  Many would rather quit than than get the experience through trade. In my area there are tons of model profiles that have clearly only done a couple shoots, say they want pay and have been inactive.

Certainly, there are some good TF models still out there, but I agree that at least in some areas, fewer models are willing to do trade.

Somehow many models new to MM (and some photographers, also) have the impression that high paying jobs will start rolling in within a week or two.

studio36uk wrote:

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
This is very much a UK thing. I hear this from other photographers based in the UK.

In time it will change again Chris. I remember the days, and it has been some years since I have seen one doing this, when certain models quoted "rates" for their modelling but wanted the "rate+[up to 50%]" if you wanted them to sign a release. And that in an environment where we don't need or require releases in the first place. DUH!!!

Once again, time to dust off this old quote   :

Studio36

+1

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've also been seeing a larger percent of new models who want pay almost right off the bat compared to a few years ago.  I think the many rate threads which give the impression that earning $100+/hour is typical help drive that attitude.  Many would rather quit than than get the experience through trade. In my area there are tons of model profiles that have clearly only done a couple shoots, say they want pay and have been inactive.

Certainly, there are some good TF models still out there, but I agree that at least in some areas, fewer models are willing to do trade.

I only pay models who have the experience to be paid!

Fred Gerhart wrote:
Disagree...  a quality model will be very helpful in producing the final product whereas a model that must be molded every step of the way will drain the creativity away from the photographer.

I totally agree. If I'm finding that a model needs to be directed to do everything it kills the creative element of the shoot. Photoshoots are a team effort between the model and the photographer. When they work in unison, magic happens. When one has to carry the bulk of the creative workload, there's just no spark.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've also been seeing a larger percent of new models who want pay almost right off the bat compared to a few years ago.  I think the many rate threads which give the impression that earning $100+/hour is typical help drive that attitude.  Many would rather quit than than get the experience through trade. In my area there are tons of model profiles that have clearly only done a couple shoots, say they want pay and have been inactive.

Certainly, there are some good TF models still out there, but I agree that at least in some areas, fewer models are willing to do trade.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I only pay models who have the experience to be paid!

As do most photographers which is why most of the newbies who won't do trade quickly fade away.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

This is very much a UK thing. I hear this from other photographers based in the UK.

It's not what I've found. I'm trying to shoot with good looking models with some experience and am doing OK getting tfp. I have done tf shoots with 4 models since mid november, plus 2 more arranged for next week.
I think if I'd been going for real newbies I would have been able to shoot more, if I'd wanted. Having said that, I've had several models not interested or seemed interested then just (frustratingly) stopped communcting for no reason. A bit of patience and persistence seems to help.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I don't see any dwindling of interest on the part of models. If anything, there are more models contacting me than ever before.

KM

I find the same thing.

And I'm not a Ken Marcus or anything!

astrographic wrote:
................" but in honesty the guy with camera types are the ones who probably dont mind paying for models with poor portfolios as they might think this means they get a lot more "freedom" with the model, seeing as they are paying.



Whats the general opinion?

Wow!  You're suggesting that a photographer, regardless of skill, might see payment as his "right" to behave inappropriately?  That's an insult to the industry, and to your colleagues.......just sayin'

Or, perhaps that's an insight to your own thinking....have you read the thread on "creepy" photographers?

astrographic wrote:
Hi
This has probably been discussed before, and ive mentioned on other forums.

Years ago it was fairly common for new/amateur models to offer tfp in order to get experience and build up their portfolios.
This was great for both photographer and model as both benefitted from the experience.
Now though it seems that every model, whether on their first or second shoot or only having been modelling a few months, wants to charge £40 an hour or so to do a shoot.

Im all for the good models making a living out of modelling and in their cases its totally valid to charge what the market allows.

The problem is that a lot of the models wanting to charge from the beginning is that photographers have no way of building up their experience unless they pay up front, and have no idea if the model is any good or capable of carrying off the shoot.

Its such a risk to have to pay over £100 every time you want to arrange a shoot with a model, add in studio fees and expenses and its a very expensive gamble.

How are these models getting portfolio pictures? If they are charging then i assume the photographers are not giving them the pictures? or are they? If they are then its a double problem in that the model gets paid twice almost.

This isnt to say i wont pay for models, in fact i have a few booked that im happy to pay for, but they have good portfolios and references or have an image that im looking specifically for. 
I am however disappointed in the amount of models whose portfolios i have looked and thought "you know all they need is a few good pictures instead of those badly shot camera style things they have uploaded", contacted them to offer a shoot, only to get a reponse back along the lines of "i dont do tfp, my rates are listed on the site".

Are they getting any work? I guess that maybe the idea is that by charging they appear more professional, or scare away the "guy with camera" brigade, but in honesty the guy with camera types are the ones who probably dont mind paying for models with poor portfolios as they might think this means they get a lot more "freedom" with the model, seeing as they are paying.

Maybe im just being grumpy........ but theres no way i can afford to take risks on models who have 4 badly shot pictures on their portfolio (despite thinking that with decent shots they might look really good).

Whats the general opinion?

astrographic wrote:
And as said above, maybe it'sa UK (or Scotland) thing.

As an Aberdeen ( Scotland) based photographer I can't say I've seen any significant changes in the attitude of models to TF shooting in the last 10 years. 

At times, I do find it difficult finding suitable models, but that I think is down to me looking to shoot more art based ideas.  While these shoots are fine for me, they might not appeal to a model looking to develop her portfolio.  So any lack of models is usually down to me wanting to shoot specific ideas.  I just can't afford to pay for every shoot, it's just not practical.

astrographic wrote:
Hi
This has probably been discussed before, and ive mentioned on other forums.

Years ago it was fairly common for new/amateur models to offer tfp in order to get experience and build up their portfolios.
This was great for both photographer and model as both benefitted from the experience.
Now though it seems that every model, whether on their first or second shoot or only having been modelling a few months, wants to charge £40 an hour or so to do a shoot.

Im all for the good models making a living out of modelling and in their cases its totally valid to charge what the market allows.

The problem is that a lot of the models wanting to charge from the beginning is that photographers have no way of building up their experience unless they pay up front, and have no idea if the model is any good or capable of carrying off the shoot.

Its such a risk to have to pay over £100 every time you want to arrange a shoot with a model, add in studio fees and expenses and its a very expensive gamble.

How are these models getting portfolio pictures? If they are charging then i assume the photographers are not giving them the pictures? or are they? If they are then its a double problem in that the model gets paid twice almost.

This isnt to say i wont pay for models, in fact i have a few booked that im happy to pay for, but they have good portfolios and references or have an image that im looking specifically for. 
I am however disappointed in the amount of models whose portfolios i have looked and thought "you know all they need is a few good pictures instead of those badly shot camera style things they have uploaded", contacted them to offer a shoot, only to get a reponse back along the lines of "i dont do tfp, my rates are listed on the site".

Are they getting any work? I guess that maybe the idea is that by charging they appear more professional, or scare away the "guy with camera" brigade, but in honesty the guy with camera types are the ones who probably dont mind paying for models with poor portfolios as they might think this means they get a lot more "freedom" with the model, seeing as they are paying.

On a bit of a tangent I know, but I always believed that part of the TF* arrangement was crediting of the work of the other/s - part of the whole networking scene.  Credit your models, your MUA as well.  Helps everyone get work.

You are right though.  It's happening in Australia as well - brand new models without any bloody idea what they are doing, asking for money straight up.  So you get to pay them to teach them their trade.  It's just rubbish !!!

James Ogilvie wrote:
TF is far from dead.  I have to say no to TF offers a lot.  There's only so many opportunities for me to shoot.

It wasn't that way for me when I started. I paid a lot of models to build up my book and get relevant experience.  A lot of the results were awful, but slowly I got better. So did a lot of the models who started around the time that I did.

Models aren't idiots. If they see work in a photographers book that they like/want, they will see the value and agree to trade.  Photographers should do likewise.

It doesn't stop unless you want it to.

I will always do TF, it is just such a great way to just have fun. Being paid takes away the freedom, evokes more responsibility.

The results are always moving ahead, I seriously feel much of what I do is quite bad compared to what I should have done, could have done. The bar is raised on every shoot. TF allows you to fail gracefully.

studio36uk wrote:
!

Once again, time to dust off this old quote   :

Studio36

That's a bloody cruel quote and while it might apply to some, it is matched by the number of walking hard ons who feed those narcissistic egos to get a lens full of snatch.

We're bang in the middle of a recession with something like a million+ in the model age group unemployed, and with no prospect of work. Small wonder getting your bits out for the lads is seen as a viable option for those prepared to bare all, and small wonder the idea of stripping off for no pay is seen as stupid, or at best a necessary, temporary evil.
It all ties in with the flake/bad communication woes of the photographer who is looking for models who are genuinely keen to model for reasons other than what it promises to bring in the way of fame and fortune. We all want it, but there aren't enough models like that to go round, and the good photographers are the ones who will get the lion's share.


Edit: Quote gone. There you go.

PashaPhoto wrote:
options... this is all about options...

if you find yourself consistently being turned down for trade, it means that the models you're asking have better options...

figure out how to be a better option

QFT

Tim Griffiths wrote:

That's a bloody cruel quote and while it might apply to some, it is matched by the number of walking hard ons who feed those narcissistic egos to get a lens full of snatch.

We're bang in the middle of a recession with something like a million+ in the model age group unemployed, and with no prospect of work. .

Even more reason to escape reality of the recession into a world of fantasy.