BTHPhoto wrote:
If the landowner's objective is to spend his time mitigating the potential negative impacts of criminals while doing as little as possible to stop the criminal activity, then yes just kicking them of might be enough.  However if you were a landowner at risk of being sued, suffering repeated trespass and vandalism, and potentially being dropped by your insurance company, would you take the apologetic approach and do what ever you could to ensure the practice could continue?

If a landowner is having such a problem, and lots of people are tresspassing, AND there might be liability issues, which solves the problem overall -

Making sure trespassers are arrested?

-OR-

Making sure trespassers cannot enter the property?

It's no brainer.

291 wrote:
this thread has gone sideways with typical mm asshattery.

And that's a good thing

291 wrote:
this thread has gone sideways with typical mm asshattery.

Color me surprised

SKPhoto wrote:

If a landowner is having such a problem, and lots of people are tresspassing, AND there might be liability issues, which solves the problem overall -

Making sure trespassers are arrested?

-OR-

Making sure trespassers cannot enter the property?

It's no brainer.

Pffftttt....stop making sense, that's not allowed here

Chris Macan wrote:
Good god Star.... what kind of fucked up logic are you spouting?
If a property owner doesn't turn their property in to a fortress they deserve what they get?

By your logic the asshole who broke into my studio shouldn't be held accountable because I should have had an ugly steel door instead of the architecturally accurate wooden door. And surely I should replace my nice glass windows with harder to break plexi ones.

Seriously?

Star wrote:
that statement is so idiotic it does not deserve a response.

Why is it idiotic? It is pretty much what you said.

Star wrote:
so you have suffered multiple losses, and you still think that your best reasoning is to do the min required by law? THAT is why your insurance dumped you. A few hundred dollars in signage and you probably would still have that insurance company. You should have locked your door, put up some signs, and until you do no reasonable person can be expected to know the property is owned.

Look.... Based on her story Brennan got the short end of the stick,
That is a shame.
I don't think anyone here wishes her harm.

But you and her and others don't seem to get that land owners sometimes take a zero tolerance policy for a reason.
Attacking those who point that out doesn't make you right and them wrong.

I as a land owner should not have to uglify and lock up my property to get people to stay out, but that seems to be your position.
I'm sorry..... that just makes no sense.

A reasonable person should know that if you leave the road you are entering someone's property.
It would be nice if that someone was not a dick about enforcing minor non destructive property infringement..... but unfortunately many have been harmed repeatedly by uninvited and destructive guests and now take a harsh approach to even minor trespassing.

SKPhoto wrote:
If a landowner is having such a problem, and lots of people are tresspassing, AND there might be liability issues, which solves the problem overall -

Making sure trespassers are arrested?

-OR-

Making sure trespassers cannot enter the property?

It's no brainer.

Do you know how much it costs to fence miles of property?
and how ineffective it can be at keeping out people who want to get in?

arresting the ones you catch is likely easier, cheaper and probably just as effective.

People talk......
they share where the weak spots are on a fence line,
and they share which properties are are most regularly patrolled and who prosecutes.

Venessa M Baez wrote:
What about railways ... ?

Federal law prohibits shooting on a railway.  I have never seen anybody get arrested but I have seen them sent away by Federal officers.

It is, however, not illegal to shoot a passing train or to shoot a railroad track.  You just can't be on the right of way.

Chris Macan wrote:

Do you know how much it costs to fence miles of property?
and how ineffective it can be at keeping out people who want to get in?

arresting the ones you catch is likely easier, cheaper and probably just as effective.

People talk......
they share where the weak spots are on a fence line,
and they share which properties are are most regularly patrolled and who prosecutes.

How many times have I heard someone here point out that if you cannot afford the cost of doing business, getting permits, insurance, etc. get out of the business?

How about if you can't afford fences, if you can't afford to protect, clean, etc. your property...?

Chris Macan wrote:
A reasonable person should know that if you leave the road you are entering someone's property.

Fact is, there are lots of public access rights, based on local laws and that vary from location, that make one's property anything but inviolate.

K A R L I E E wrote:

OMG WHY DID I LOOK AT HIS?

And go-f*cking-figure, he's from Cleveland, Ohio. I'm from Akron and the only place in the world that is a bigger sh*thole than Akron is Cleveland.

Don't feed the troll!

There is a reason that Detroit is now knicknamed D'Toilet.

RonWilliams wrote:
This must be the longest thread I've read here - are we there yet??

Ron

Gosh no ... not even close.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
This is all kinds of suck.

Move to LA!!  We're more forgiving of our criminals.

actually .... i've seen two photographers here in downtown getting a ticket for lack of permit ... so be careful too.

to the OP, i am sorry this happened to you. I hope you will not have a hard time looking for job.

i don't know the time span when it happened but, i would have gotten some trespassing classes or do some community service prior to the court date, to show the judge you have learned your lesson and will not do it again and maybe bring it down to infraction.

Eye of the World wrote:
Unless it was a mistake on the OP's part, the legal requirement of signage every 200 YARDS is what is most assinine. That is two fucking football fields, and pretty easy to miss, especially if you were on a roadway somewhere in between. Another person said the minimum requirement in their state was 200 FEET. That seems much more reasonable

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st16930535

I said about the same thing there; however the statute itself [also posted there] does not even mention a distance. Minimum, maximum, or ANY distance.

I asked where that number came from and the OP failed, declined, or refused to answer the question. OP in the edit to the first post said:

"I will NOT be  publicly discussing details regarding the case itself, or NC law."

Which turns out to be double-plus-unhelpful to this thread.

Studio36

V Laroche wrote:
I was arrested for trespassing while shooting too. They didn't even catch me on private property or anything, I was just near private property so I spent the night in lockup and they exposed my kodachrome.

Ah, but we KNOW about the police in NOLA.

Studio36

SKPhoto wrote:
And apparently signs aren't required with the enactment of the "purple paint" law. As in, purple paint on posts or trees is the same as a no trespassing sign.

A little more research would have lead you to this on the "purple paint" law.

"The Landowner Protection Act [my note- incorporating the "purple paint" marking rules] specifically relates only to hunting, fishing, or trapping on posted lands."

FWIW this aspect of trespass [hunting, fishing, or trapping on posted lands] in the law's former iteration, (22A) G.S. 14-159.7, and until just late 2011, also appears to be where the 200 yard rule appears.

This is NOT a rule of general applicability to all trespass questions. And it may not be applicable at all to any other trespass. For trespass 2nd degree, OTHER THAN hunting, fishing, or trapping, the generally applicable rule still appears to be that set out in "(22B) G.S. 14-159.13. Second degree trespass"

Studio36

B R E N N A N wrote:
Yes, this is long, sorry....

Back in January, I made plans to shoot with a photographer I had worked with before, at a location I had shot at dozens of times. I was turned onto the location by another photographer, and judging by the posts on urban exploration websites, it's a pretty popular shoot destination. I met the photographer there, his female assistant, and we also had another brand new model join us as well.



The building on the property is surrounding by fencing- as well as No Trespassing signs- so we parked on a public road, and avoided that area, choosing instead to walk around where a new bridge is being built on a public road. This area is super remote, and I have never heard so much as a car pass anywhere near anytime I've been there. We continued to walk, sometimes off the road, as the area is very post-apocalyptic and interesting, hoping we could see something to shoot. We had been there less than 15 minutes, and taken no images, when a construction worker informed us we were "trespassing, and the law has been called." We immediately apologized, not realizing it was private property, and left immediately, but the police were already there waiting for at the road. Again, we were very compliant and apologetic, but the property owners were insistent we be arrested and charged with second degree trespassing, which we were.



Making a long story short, we all 4 hired lawyers, went to trial since the property owner was not willing to drop the charges, and lost. We were all convicted on a Prayer For Judgement Continued (apparently not all states have this. It's basically "conviction light"), meaning I now have a criminal record. According to the property owner, there were signs posted, meeting the minimum NC requirement of having one 8x11 inch sign posted every 200 yards (absurd, but, okay).



I cannot afford the appeals process (today was my last day to appeal anyways), nor do I have the time, considering this has cost me multiple jobs already , and the courthouse is 90 minutes from my house, without traffic.



I did not post this for any remarks about how it was handled, either my myself, the attorneys, or other parties involved, but as a cautionary tale to all my fellow creatives. Just because you think it's public property, or don't see any signs posted, do NOT assume it is public- please get permission from the property owner; if you can't, don't shoot there.



Related note: I probably will not be up for shooting at random locations anymore lol.

Edit for clarity:
The area we were shooting was NOT fenced, and was a solid mile away from the "construction" area. Apparently when meandering off the road, we ventured a mere 5 feet off the public easement, onto private property. 5 feet people.

The property owner is a dick not for protecting his property rights, but was a dick for a multitude of other reasons (lying on the stand, falsifying information, and others).
We did NOT knowingly trespass. Had we known it was private property, or had it been properly posted, we would have packed up and went home.

And because some people missed it the first time, I will NOT be  publicly discussing details regarding the case itself, or NC law. Please feel free to pm me for additional details if you would like them.

Being a misdemeanor, I am curious to know how much was the fine, and was it more than the monies paid for legal representation?

SKPhoto wrote:
I thought this was interesting -

"The following are some other facts regarding trespassing laws in Raleigh and throughout North Carolina:

    * If a landowner asks a trespasser to leave the premises, and the trespasser does leave, he cannot be charged or convicted of trespassing.

http://www.sahllaw.com/trespass/

And apparently signs aren't required with the enactment of the "purple paint" law.
As in, purple paint on posts or trees is the same as a no trespassing sign.

That's odd. I understood the text as:
Trespass (on private property):
1. Enter without permission
2. Enter with permission, but do not leave when asked

§ 14‑159.12. First degree trespass.
(a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of first degree trespass if, without authorization, he enters or remains:
(1) On premises of another so enclosed or secured as to demonstrate clearly an intent to keep out intruders; or
(2) In a building of another.
(b) Classification. – First degree trespass is a Class 2 misdemeanor. (1987, c. 700, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 101; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)


§ 14‑159.13. Second degree trespass.
(a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of second degree trespass if, without authorization, he enters or remains on premises of another:
(1) After he has been notified not to enter or remain there by the owner, by a person in charge of the premises, by a lawful occupant, or by another authorized person; or
(2) That are posted, in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, with notice not to enter the premises.
(b) Classification. – Second degree trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor. (1987, c. 700, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 102; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)

In other words, the law is broken by entering without permission, regardless of whether you've been asked to leave or not.

Asking someone to leave is only applicable when the person was already on the premises  - implicitly with permission  (i.e., an unwanted guest has to leave when asked.)

Optix  wrote:
Asking someone to leave is only applicable when the person was already on the premises  - implicitly with permission  (i.e., an unwanted guest has to leave when asked.)

Not necessarily true. You need to also understand the difference between constructive notice and actual notice. If there is no notice and until there is, there is no trespass.

This applies as well in malls, in parking lots, in clubs, and any other kind of place you might want to shoot. No notice? No trespass! They can ask you to leave and if you do = no trespass.

Studio36

Rollo David Snook wrote:
Can u not get some pics of the land, to show it wasn't sign-posted?

If no damage was done, really the responsibility is theirs to manage the land properly.

Given they've gone the whole legal route, over nothing and given you a criminal record, I would take the gloves off immediately and write to local press. Find out their business partners, write letters, make a stink. Use the fact you can't fund the appeal to your advantage. Create a media campaign. Show the damage that is being done to you. Then when you have considerable support, annoy the police force that arrested you until they are sick of you with letters and complaints. Show the owners to be unreasonable. Show yourself as the victim. Then take it higher, in my country that would be writing to central government.

If you feel passionately about this and criminal record is going to affect your opportunities, don't give up.

I like this advice.

Wild Side Studios wrote:
> The property owner sounds like a real jerk. I'm sorry about your misfortune, but
> thanks for spreading the words of caution.
How is he a jerk for defending his property rights?  By the OP's own admission, this area has been frequented numerous times by himself and others.  The property owner was probably sick of the trespasses.  What if someone is injured on his property - then he would be getting sued.

numerous times...
well, recently I stumble upon the image of a construction site stalling for years without any building progress. it was actually used to bury corpses very close to the ground surface. 
what if somebody occasionally sticks up a photo tripod into too thin dirt?

there is always some reason for an suspicious response and too inadequate behavior...
by the way, does NC have death penalty or just a life sentence?

B R E N N A N wrote:

Actually, the only funds I had to pay were my attorney fees. The judge thought the case retarded enough to waive all 4 of our fees. Which makes this an even more colossal waste of government time and money.

It is too bad you had to go through this nonsense, because that is exactly what it is.  And too bad the judge didn't just kick it out of court. To have a record for this is insane,

I belive in no harm, no foul.  Shame this landowner was such a jerk.

B R E N N A N wrote:

I have no desire to sit here and argue semantics with you, so I will ignore all further posts from you.

And for the love of fuck, an attorney's website? Have the sense to pull from the NC gov website, at least.

Too funny...

Everyone's a lawyer

...I appreciate the warning, and the spirit this was shared in.

Rollo David Snook wrote:
Can u not get some pics of the land, to show it wasn't sign-posted?

If no damage was done, really the responsibility is theirs to manage the land properly.

Given they've gone the whole legal route, over nothing and given you a criminal record, I would take the gloves off immediately and write to local press. Find out their business partners, write letters, make a stink. Use the fact you can't fund the appeal to your advantage. Create a media campaign. Show the damage that is being done to you. Then when you have considerable support, annoy the police force that arrested you until they are sick of you with letters and complaints. Show the owners to be unreasonable. Show yourself as the victim. Then take it higher, in my country that would be writing to central government.

If you feel passionately about this and criminal record is going to affect your opportunities, don't give up.

It is too late for this now.  She has already gone to trial.  In the U. S., you can't introduce evidence on appeal that was available at trial.  She should have done that before trial

devpics wrote:
You needed a better lawyer

this