PashaPhoto wrote:
i think this article has a valid and legitimate point...










i don't... i just want to see Eliza type out a war and peace like novel as a response

Be careful.  She may do that.   

Laurie-Anne Foster wrote:
It is also unbelievable the egos some of the people in this thread have (not referring to Tony now).  I can't even believe some of you do well for yourselves - it's a bloody miracle you don't just float off into space with the amount of hot air oozing out of every pore of your bodies.  Seriously.  Appalling.

I was always interested in astrophysics and that's why I studied engineering physics.... but wasn't smart enough. 

That's why! 

Tiffany_B wrote:
I will agree with you from the standpoint that having seen Jessa's port which is quite exceptional that the description didn't fit their given definition but playing devil's advocate I personally didn't realize it was a real portfolio until you pointed it out and (perhaps Jessa herself can attest otherwise) the author may have grabbed a random screenshot. Was it uncool? Yes. Unfortunately though I think it's part of the hazard of having images online anywhere. Before my sister stopped modeling she had almost her whole portfolio lifted and the images attributed to someone else. I'm not trying to minimize whatever emotional toll it may have taken on her but I I think we can all agree that there are worst things that can occur and if nothing else it got her some much deserved new professional admirers.

I also agree that facebook is not a portfolio and that it's full of silly shots and silly status updates. But it's also possible to separate your personal page from one related to your business. My personal page and the page for my jewelry line are separate and that's the case with a lot of people I personally know in the industry. Are there slips or even intentional tomfoolerly to show we're human? Of course. But there are "models" (and I use the term loosely) that use FB for professional purposes in a way that's anything but professional.

I dig the camraderie that ya'll show each other but I do think that there was some mud thrown towards supporters of you guys who also happened to be able to see the truth in the fact that not every model on the internet is professional.

Tiffany - if you check my threads around the place I am always saying that photographers shoukld avoid the type of models you mean.
We all know there are young girls here who have a port with a few bedroom pics and then they think they can screw £800 out of a photographer for being pretty. On the other hand; I have also seen such models who say on their ports: ;'look I have never done a shoot but am eager to learn and give it a go'. Look back a few months later and a reasonable port is starting to emerge because they have been doing tf. They may never do anything more than that; but they are doing nobody any harm; least of all professional models. They just make us look better if anything.

Now I am having real problems understanding why any professional photographer or stylist would not know they are taking a risk if they are picking a model such as that; where it be the stripper rate girl or the wannabe. As far as I can see anyway none of them claim to be fashion models.

So what we have is three people in this thread saying the article means that type of girl; then pointing out that there are plenty of that type of girl here; and that the problem is they are unreliable.
UNRELIABLE FOR WHAT?
WHY ARE YOU CONSIDERING THEM?
It is pretty obvious that isn't any of the models in this thread.

Now I hear that for every one of us there are 2 of the others. So we should have 24 such girls in that thread? WHERE?
You need data if you are going to make claims like that. And even if you do it is a moot point because it is all about seperating wheat from chaf because a pro should be able to spot them a mile off.


The article atacked us all. All models with web based ports and implied we were all bedroom models. And they hoisted that claim to the top of their mast with Jessa's port.

As for facebook I think you will find models (and photographers generally have:
FB for their real persona; FB for their pro persona.
There will be a bit of modelling on their personal because your family and freinds wnat to see when you are in a magazine.
Then there will be pics of the real you on your pro port because people want to see you have a kid or a cat or paint your nails green so they don't think you are just up yourself all the time doing modelling shots.

And there are TWO top models I know of have that too. One of them is under a pseudonym. The other is open to public view. And there are plenty of images of her painting her nails etc.

So designer posts new collection on fb. Top model goes to album says 'Luuurrrrv'.
268 other people then post because they realise it is that model so they are all excited; and a high proportion of them buy. That is how shit works in the real world - the net is important.

If you don't want mud thrown at you don't throw mud at others. It is no good turning round and saying sorry I was aiming over at that girl in her bedroom.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I blame myself because apparently I was clear enough.   So let me try again.   Companies and real world clients with decent budgets who are looking for professional models need to go where pro models exist and that is a licensed and bonded agency like Ford or Next or a commercial agency.   Trying to use a web based model is a recipe for failure.   Yes there are wonderful and reliable models on the web and here but most clients don't have the time, patience or experience to vet and or wade through the chaff to get to the wheat.

If a agency model is a no show I can call and have another model in hours.   Who could, I call if you did it?   Lets say you were not a American citizen and not legally able to work in the US how would I know.   Criminal record?   Agencies vet models.  Since, Eliza likes to provide real life stories.   Here's one.   A local hair product company does a casting on Facebook.   Models come to the open call.   Its a audition.   12:00PM  to 6:00PM   Models came at 6:30 and 7:00.   Several expected to be paid to audition and for their gas.   Two who were chosen had 'managers' call to say they needed to be paid more.

You want professionals?   Go where they exist.   Yes there are great models on-line but busy people who don't have time to ask about your references and check up on you want to book models.   Have them arrive on time ready to work.   If you have a limited budget you do what 'cha have too and I know several companies who have found models on-line and used them with varying results.    Again so, I am clear there are many excellent professional models on MM and some book work with real world clients but lets not kid ourselves.   The majority of paid work consists of lingerie and nude.   Most of the clients are photographers.   Clients who have hired MUA, photographers, stylists and rented props and or paid for locations don't have time to fool around with women who want to play at modeling.   As for my being bitter.   You don't know me so I'll tell you this.   I don't expect models to race to work with me TF or paid.   Nor I'm I bitter or angry about what people do or don't do. 
 
Last; Those who can afford to use agency models should.

You open your mouth and put your foot in it immediately.

'real' world clients.
Who the f*** do you think our clients are?

If you mean top advertising companies doing campaigns; then say it. Just don't imply that is the real world and the 98% of profesional modelling not done at that level is pants. Because if you do; we will continue to tear out your arsehole because it is clear you knw f.a about the 'real' world you only know what most of us think of as 'fantasy' or the icing on the cake which we get the odd fragments of.

Now if you keep on you can give me a big tax rebate because OBVIOUSLY models who are not real don't have to pay PAYE tax on their paychecks.

The reason ad agencies are used by corprorations and big concerns for campaigns is accountability.
Design team makes collection; the campign is done by ad company out of house. Phew. It is all in their hands now and if they screw up we aren't accountable. Designers are not ad companies; the ad companies must do everything they can to secure the best available talent or its their arses on the line.
I can't begin to tell you what sort of money is involved.
If you think that is the real world; you are living in cuckoo land. We may get the odd bit of that kind of thing but not much. But here is the thing. Apart form the very elite agency models; the majority of agnecy models don't get enough of it to make a living either. So guess what? They are here too after a bit of the solid massive cake beneath that icing.


So when any work is done in house an agency may or not be involved; and what is usual is a bit of agency and a bit of in house model. Every in house fit model is likely to have a web port usually here. Ad companies are not involved as the budget may be £40k instead of £100k because of cost cutting.
Of course you may not know how that works because you won't know that that either doesn't involve photography; or they use the in house photographer or the photographer whose studio is next door. But because they are real fashion photographers they may not be on MM Just kidding.

Now so you know I am not talking out of my arse do you want to see my payslips; or are you going to accept I know what I am talking about?

A R M wrote:

It has been said many times that the forum does not offer a representative picture of the average MM member. Those girls are probably too busy flaking on some poor guy who only wanted nice pictures of naked ladies.

The poor guy should have some brains enough to pick a proper model not try to act out that fantasy of discovering unknown talent by picking a wannabe.

PashaPhoto wrote:
i think this article has a valid and legitimate point...










i don't... i just want to see Eliza type out a war and peace like novel as a response

Look Buster there are plenty of photographers here that know very specific parts of the industry. Some of them are lucky enough to do the icing bit; or aspire to that; and think it IS the normal day to day stuff. Great for them! .

But they have NO CLUE what the rest of us do in the 'real' world of modelling. And that goes for most of the bulk of Agency girls too - even they are here trying to pick up extra work rather than sitting on their butts waiting for the agency to call. Some are even doing the perfume promo model work in the department stores. And some of us have to cover for them when the agency does call.

If I have spent a great deal of time trying to give solid examples of the kinds of things we do it's because they need enlightening. I have a sack full of emails from photographers who now say '''sorry I didn't know" or "wow thanks Eliza that was interesting I had no idea" ....but equally there are some that are sticking up their high and mighty noses looking down on us because we don't do L'Oreal campaigns.

If you already know what we do you don't need to read my long responses which are purely for the benefit of those who do not.

IF you don't know sod all about the Crimean war I suggest you read War and Peace rather than a shitty GCSE students blog article about said war. Because otherwise you may not realise that there were a hell of a lot more troops giving their lives than just the glamorous 'hossifers' of the light cavalry. Because otherwise you will make quite the fool of yourself if you think the kid's blog has any credence. Especially when that blogger  is saying "nah the other soldiers didn't do anything they cowered behind the barracades pretending to be soldiers".

udor wrote:
I really don't  understand what this has anything to do with being ''honest''?

I really don't know how this industry works in Europe and can't speak for the markets in the US, but, here in NYC, what you describe  as 'oh so special', is absolutely normal for photographers, models, MUA's and stylists.

It's the regular daily grind:

Lots of small jobs. the occasional great jobs with high pay, the many jobs for charity and always networking your ass off. Always on the run.

That's like this for everybody here, that's why it is so incomprehensible to me why your journeyman description is so special and done only by (London) models...

I know so many photographers and models here who supplement their income with side and odd jobs. That's not something special, it's living in the city. 

Look mate you may be getting the L'Oreal campign as you main job and do a few other odd jobs round the place too.
But for most of us we do those thousands of odd jobs and maybe once in a blue moon we get the taste of what you do.

But if you look down your nose at us you will get it bitten off. The TOP agency girls don't do it, and the designers certainly don't do it to us so I am fucked if the likes of you are. Now I realise it may be in your interest to pretend that the presentation at top level is everything so the glaze on the apple pie is very very important to sell it; perhaps the most important thing . But trying to pretend the rest of the pie doesn't exist is nonsense; and it is extremely ingracious in particular to the people doing the journeyman work in the apple orchard. !!

The photographer is simply not there for 80% of modelling so you really don't have a clue. If you did you'd know down here in the daily grind the bulk of us are not agency girls or have got the work themselves through here etc.
Now to you probably you look down your nose at models that do a bit of life drawing because you don't see that even some the supermodels do a bit of such to tone their craft; while for the rest of us such is just another part of our daily grind. But it is also some of the nicest work. But there again you probably don't realise that half the fashion designers in London, and ALL the ones coming through fashion college are also going to life drawing classes because they need to draw the human form for their designs. And yes we get some nice little fashion jobs from that from time to time too. OMG the fashion designers are mixing with the internet models : MORAL PANIC!!!


Know who this is? If you don't you don't know much about fashion. A little provincial show but important enough for here to be there directing it all and she is well known in NYC.


Now of course they will use Agency models for the campaigns; and even agency models for websites. But they don't use agency models for other more mundane but important stuff; simply because it is too expensive. And sorry to post a facebook snap taken by a friend  but there were only two local press photographers at the show. You know; the internet photographers who only get their work in the local magazines same as the rest of us.

Eliza C wrote:
Look mate you may be getting the L'Oreal campign as you main job and do a few other odd jobs round the place too.

But if you look down your nose at us you will get it bitten off. The TOP agency girls don't do it, and the designers certainly don't do it to us so I am fucked if the likes of you are. Now I realise it may be in your interest to pretend that the presentation at top level is everything so the glaze on the apple pie is very very important to sell it; perhaps the most important thing . But trying to pretend the rest of the pie doesn't exist is nonsense; and it is extremely ingracious in particular to the people doing the journeyman work in the apple orchard. !

You have my post quoted., but you must be responding to someone elses post, because nothing you write has anything to do with my post, even previous posts! Where am I looking down at you models and where am I stating that only the top models count???

This is utter nonsense!

So, because of that, I am giving you the benefit of a doubt regarding this (erroneous?) post.

If I would be at he level of booking a L'Oreal campaign, I wouldn't have to do the journeyman stuff anymore.

A R M wrote:
The reality is that for every professional model who has an account here, there are at least two girls who fit the description of the article better. Blanket statements suck and whatever. Perception is a bitch.

...there are at least two HUNDRED girls...

There, fixed it for you. Hell, it could even be two THOUSAND, even.

Studio36

Dark Shadows wrote:
To be honest, fashion models have always sort of turned their nose up at other models such as glamour, fitness, nude ect. Fashion is sort of it's own little private fraternity. This was definitely true before the internet, although now that internet models are making money off newbie shooters, I guess they are a lot more visible and a larger target.

In the end, I don't think you'll cross paths too often. Your clients are generally very different than a fashion models clients.

This.

Dark Shadows wrote:
To be honest, fashion models have always sort of turned their nose up at other models such as glamour, fitness, nude ect. Fashion is sort of it's own little private fraternity. This was definitely true before the internet, although now that internet models are making money off newbie shooters, I guess they are a lot more visible and a larger target.

In the end, I don't think you'll cross paths too often. Your clients are generally very different than a fashion models clients.

Newbie shooters, willing to shoot Internet models, will seldom have clients with decent budgets either.

So, directly to the point, there is just a lot of smoke being blown out of a lot of asses around here.

Studio36

udor wrote:
You have my post quoted., but you must be responding to someone elses post, because nothing you write has anything to do with my post, even previous posts! Where am I looking down at you models and where am I stating that only the top models count???

This is utter nonsense!

So, because of that, I am giving you the benefit of a doubt regarding this (erroneous?) post.

If I would be at he level of booking a L'Oreal campaign, I wouldn't have to do the journeyman stuff anymore.

Yes it was Tony that brought up the L'Oreal model but you as a shooter are only being brought in to do stuff on the whole on the icing on the cake stage you don't shoot the stuff for merchandise catalogues, fitting sample shots, flyers, regional magazines, boutique fashion shows etc do you? If you did; you wouldn't think what you were involved with was the journeyman stuff. It may be to YOU that the stuff I am saying is 'oh so special' is normal. But believe me it isn't. In comparison with Tony's description of the modelling world perhaps it is . But we are the bog standard girls who model day in day out ....most of it without photographers there.
And if you knew that world; you would know that agencies do NOT book that work. Well perhaps a bit of it.

studio36uk wrote:
...there are at least two HUNDRED girls...

There, fixed it for you. Hell, it could even be two THOUSAND, even.

Studio36

Where is the data?

Yes; a lot of smoke being blown from a lot of arses.

One COULD say that for every photographer here there are 200 'internet photographers' who are wannabes because they don't shoot elite fashion; and just want to look a girlies tits. Hell it could be two thousand.
Do you know why we don't say that? Because we don't look at photographers as though they are pieces of shit. There probably are hunreds or thousands of amateurs on both sides. BUT it isn't difficult to see who's who.

Pick a city and look at the models. I've done it so I will save you the time. These are across all genres inc glamour. There are 10% laughable joke ports; 10% wannabes; 10% top agency model or high achieving published models ports. Then there are 30% pretty good amateur or beginners with potential or part timers. 20% agency models or former agency models or minor agency models or widely published models of one kind of another; and 20% solid journeyman models who do a bit of everything or specialise in one genre eg plus, petite, gamour, art. Within all those you still have to be selective; and careful but you can be. Even a good amateur will flake if she can't get the day off her day job; or an agency model if she suddenly is offered agency work.

They may vary pretty wildy depending where you go but it is pretty average for most cities.

You can do the same with the photographers.
10% are either complete idiots or perverts. 10% are some of the worlds best photographers. 20% are hobby photographers. 20% are semi pro or building up ports ready to be; or doing Art stuff for exhibition. 20% are the bit of all wedding/commercial/journeymen/fetish/alt/press photographers. 20% the ones doing very high standard commerical, glamour or fine art work.


So there you go.

No pick a city and get me 200 to one. Don't bother; you have made a fool of yourself with such a claim.
And know full well I have done this before in threads and proven that a lot of the girls here are Agency signed and the city break down examples. So either you didn't read it in which case I am wasting my time; or you choose to believe your prejudices. Bceause an opinion based without evidence is a prejudice.

Now if you are finding these 200 crappy models to 1 good one then wtf are you doing wrong? I'd say most photographers  have a 200/1 chance of getting a professional  model without paying that is true.

NYC Erotica wrote:
This.

Wrong. very wrong.
Will be different glamour v fashion.

But fine art and fitting are very close.
And fitting and fashion are very close.
And I saw the same few hundred girls week in week out. And knew of hundreds more.

Yeah when we are all having a coffee maybe half a dozen of us on a lunch break because I am modelling at the local boutique for some jewellery shots for a flyer they are doing on their costume range; Franka and Lena are doing some show today at a fashion trade fair at Earl's Court (be it clothes show live or even fet con) ; Jemma and Susannah have met up with me so we can swap fit and life drawing dates on their lunch break at the Art college; and Anne has brought along a designer wanting us to do a charity fashion show for £50, a dress and a couple glasses of champagne. We are all on MM even though Jemma (yep the life model) and Lena are Agency signed. And in walks Sophie Dahl with her boyfriend. Like she does most days. Because she doesn't have to work her arse off like us every day to earn a crust. But guess what? She doesn't look down her nose at us either. Must be a bitch that some of us actually lived in places like London (and worked in fashion houses) instead of hicksville so we can tell everyone else what rubbish is talked. Just because we are on MM doesn't mean we spend all OUR FUCKING TIME IN THE BEDROOM!!!!!

Eliza C wrote:
The QUOTE:
"To be honest, fashion models have always sort of turned their nose up at other models such as glamour, fitness, nude ect. Fashion is sort of it's own little private fraternity. This was definitely true before the internet, although now that internet models are making money off newbie shooters, I guess they are a lot more visible and a larger target."

In the end, I don't think you'll cross paths too often. Your clients are generally very different than a fashion models clients.


Wrong. very wrong.
Will be different glamour v fashion.

But fine art and fitting are very close.
And fitting and fashion are very close.
And I saw the same few hundred girls week in week out. And knew of hundreds more.

Yeah when we are all having a coffee maybe half a dozen of us on a lunch break because I am modelling at the local boutique for some jewellery shots for a flyer they are doing on their costume range; Franka and Lena are doing some show today at a fashion trade fair at Earl's Court (be it clothes show live or even fet con) ; Jemma and Susannah have met up with me so we can swap fit and life drawing dates on their lunch break at the Art college; and Anne has brought along a designer wanting us to do a charity fashion show for £50, a dress and a couple glasses of champagne. We are all on MM even though Jemma (yep the life model) and Lena are Agency signed. And in walks Sophie Dahl with her boyfriend. Like she does most days. Because she doesn't have to work her arse off like us every day to earn a crust. But guess what? She doesn't look down her nose at us either. Must be a bitch that some of us actually lived in places like London (and worked in fashion houses) instead of hicksville so we can tell everyone else what rubbish is talked. Just because we are on MM doesn't mean we spend all OUR FUCKING TIME IN THE BEDROOM!!!!!

We can agree to disagree.

NYC Erotica wrote:
We can agree to disagree.

We can; or we can find out the truth.

You are a glamour photographer. I am a fashion fitting and fine art model. I have nothing to do with glamour modelling but a few glamour models are friends. So even then our paths cross and we don't look down at them; and they don't look down on us because I am not in the Daily Sport. We may even still cross paths at things like alt fashion and fetish fashion stuff; or even promotional modelling; because a lot of us do a bit of everything.
BUT glamour models tend to want to be glamour models only and once your port is full of such you are less likely to do fashion. They certainly aren't likely to do that much fine art at Art institutions; though a few do. But is is a whole different pose game. Doesn't make one better than the other; or in terms of professionalism. They may have stripper rates; but that is their business if they have invested a lot in their assets. Sometimes it goes the other way. Lena in the example above did only glamour in Poland but now she does fashion and art; and is Agency signed.

Eliza C wrote:
[...] you don't shoot the stuff for merchandise catalogues, fitting sample shots, flyers, regional magazines, boutique fashion shows etc do you?

Eliza:

I am getting old and either I don't have the strength or patience, or both, to dance in circles repeating the same answers and explanations to assumtions that won't stop.

I have written several times on how many levels I am involved in in the fashion industry, including the production of garments. I work with many small designers, doing some catalogue/product shoots, flyers, brochures etc.

Not only is most of my social circle consisting of artists and people from the industry, including llamas (mostly freelancers), my 2nd wife was  a freelance llama.

I am involved in fashionshow productions and not only big ones also many, many small ones... some are really small.

I do consulting of llamas for one of the small agencies I am shooting for, sometimes I do that for freelancers when they ask.

The way you try to make llamaling into some secret world is actually funny, because you are talking to seasoned industry people.

According to you, llamas are a secret society who live in a well guarded, secret location that come out only for a gig and will keep complete silence about their ninja'esque profession.

When they arrive on locatio/studio/fitting room, they won't talk to the MUA/seemstress/stylist etc. either.

After the job is done, they collect the slip or cash or check and leave silently going back to their lair, leaving the people puzzled what a mysterious apparition they have just worked with...

And THAT is the reason why nobody else in the fashion industry can ever have a clue what a llama's life looks like.

I must tell you that the llamas that I know, work with, have friendships with, are regular people (sic!) that talk freely about their lives, the work etc. and if you (not you, Eliza) don't learn something about their lives, than there is something wrong with the listener.

More has been posted before.

Toodles!

udor wrote:
Eliza:

I am getting old and either I don't have the strength or patience, or both, to dance in circles repeating the same answers and explanations to assumtions that won't stop.

I have written several times on how many levels I am involved in the fashion industry, including the production of garments. I work with many small designers, doing some catalogue/product shoots, flyers, brochures etc.

Not only is most of my social circle consisting of artists and people from the industry, including models (mostly freelancers), my 2nd wife was  a freelance model.

I am involved in fashionshow productions and not only big ones also many, many small ones... some are really small.

I do consulting of models for one of the small agencies I am shooting for, sometimes I do that for freelancers when they ask.

The way you try to make modelling into some secret world is actually funny, because you are talking to seasoned industry people.

According to you, models are a secret society who live in a well guarded, secret location that come out only for a gig and will keep complete silence about their ninja'esque profession.

When they arrive on locatio/studio/fitting room, they won't talk to the MUA/seemstress/stylist etc. either.

After the job is done, they collect the slip or cash or check and leave silently going back to their lair.

And THAT is the reason why nobody else in the fashion industry can ever have a clue what a model's life looks like.

I must tell you that the models that I know, work with, have friendships with, are regular people (sic!) that talk freely about their lives, the work etc. and if you (not you, Eliza) don't learn something about their lives, than there is something wrong with the listener.

More have been posted before.

Toodles!

What? Where did I say models are a secret society?
It is a ninja'esque profession only for a few of the girls -  some of the agencies would go ballistic if they found out their girls were here.
I have cited many of the models I have worked with all through this tread to show the different types and the range of work they do and the fact we work with top girls once in a blue moon. I wasn't implying we all keep in a circle; just that a lot of us know each other; and frequently we work across several  genres.
BUT if you are now agreeing with me can you also enlighten the photographers and others here who clearly DO think that only elite agency girls are involved in fashion , about freelance models; how they have ports here; how they do that basic stuff and how many of them do things like fitting modelling for example? And also an acknowledgement there are lots of agency models here would be nice too. And that there are even niches for models doing petite, plus size etc both in fitting and even some photography.


And if you are saying that models are regular people; many of them are freelance, and that we do stuff like you are now talking about like flyers etc then we are in complete agreement so I don't know what the argument is?


I don't disagree with anything you said in this post apart from claiming I was saying it was different. That what you posted in bold type is a travesty of what I said. You were among those saying that very few freelance models of the kind on MM are not involved in the work.

So - you are now agreeing with me there are plenty of freelance models involved in the day to day fashion industry. Glad that is cleared up then. Are you now going to acknowledge that many of them are also on MM as well as many of the agency models?

So - are there many girls in your daily grind with MM ports or not?
And you will also then know what a fit model does; the fact a lot of us do promo work or fine art nude etc etc. AND that some who have popsted here apparently DON'T see that. If  you do know this then excuse me because it appeared you were saying that MM models don't do any fashion work.


BTW whoever sent me the joke tax rebate thanks - but having never worked in the USA I don't think the IRS will accept my entitlement Very amusing.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
I'm 5' 2" and want to be a fashion model in Vogue.

'MM is full of dreamers'.

There may be a few who want to be in Vogue but they aren't the working models here Chris. There are a lot of dreamers. But find me a port that says they want to be in Vogue at 5ft 2 ins and I will find you 20 that are doing journeyman modelling stuff here.
One of those is Jessa who is 5ft 2 ins and does do fashion work. I dobt very much if she has aspirations to be in Vogue but her work has taken her to London Berlin and Paris. You may want to look at her port and tell her she is a dreamer.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
'British Gnome Stores'.

Studio36

Venessa M Baez wrote:
I'm an internet model? DARN I thought I was real flesh and blood...

Flesh and blood coat hanger.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

Flesh and blood coat hanger.

SHOOT.

Venessa M Baez wrote:
I'm an internet model? DARN I thought I was real flesh and blood...

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Flesh and blood coat hanger.

Meat-prop!     

Eliza C wrote:
Just because we are on MM doesn't mean we spend all OUR FUCKING TIME IN THE BEDROOM!!!!!

The amount of time you have spent answering to this thread might suggest otherwise, at least for you.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I was at this years  American Beauty Show.   Some of the exhibitors cast on Facebook and CL for local models.   Most seem to average paying $200.00 to $250.00 a day.    There is a lot of work around for non agency signed or fashion standard size models.   My point continues to however be that clients who can afford to pay industry rates for models will and should use agency signed models.   I have given the reasons why they should.   This year while at the show I asked a exhibitor about his models.   He told me two models he hired from Craigslist just didn't show.   This for paid work.   However they couldn't pay agency rates for models.   

Many of the companies at the ABS travel with their models.   Its cheaper overall to pay for hotels, etc. then to book them via agencies and or hope they show when they are not.   MM and other sites have many wonderful and talented models but consider those unlucky folks from the ABS.   They didn't have time to vet their choices.   They did a casting and expected the models to show.   I'll use this example:   When my car needed new brakes my wife and I were broke so we hired her cousin who could be called a back alley mechanic to do the repairs.   He did and they went out six weeks later.   We decided to take the car to a real shop and we paid more but they lasted several years.   Had there been a problem within the warranty period the shop would have made repairs again.

Hiring professionals tends to give professional results and while there are pro models here a busy client doesn't have time to figure out who they might be, so those who can afford too should seek out their talents with pro agencies.   Or hope for the best and look on-line.

Look Tony I am not going to say this again.
I agree that if there is a budget for an Advertising Agency then that agency will do a campaign with the best available models money can buy. Even a smalller budget they will work within it but get less expensive girls from Agencies. That isn't in dispute.
Many of the girls here are with those agencies and have done those campaigns. Not often; hence they are here. The reason they are here is because they can tout themselves for other jobs. I know one girl who is here that did a HUGE campign. If I showed it here you'd ALL know it; it was worldwide for a drinks company. She got a lot of money for it. That is the only job apart from a small one for a catlaogue she got from the Agency that year. On MM she got a job doing promo at Brent Cross shopping centre. That pays her decent wages every now and then - at least 10 days a month - with all expenses paid. She gets to model but she is promoting a product no photos. Then she maybe does a couple photoshoots a month on top. Lately she has been getting more Agency work; but as I said for a year she didn't get much apart from the big one.

Now Advertising agencies with big budgets do not cast here; or anywhere else. They use model agencies; precisely for the reasons you say.

So. Imagine for a moment you need a model every day for fitting and odd modelling jobs in house for a fashion company; whether a big house; or a small designer. Which is basically every fashion company in the world; apart from really small designers like milliners, retro fashion companies, little lingerie companies etc. The latter  will get a model and use her maybe 5 times a month. Maybe another model twice a month. The big fashion concerns may employ up to four or five models in house; mostly on the payroll. Maybe one or two full time; the others part time. All will do fitting and showroom. They will also do shoots for merchandise catalogue, flyers, parts modelling etc. and shoots to send off to the manufacturers. They will do runway fashion shows, publicity stunts, and trade fairs. At those they will work alongside top Agency girls drafted in.
NONE of those models will be booked through an Agency (unless it is for the latter mentioned events) . Not ONE. Unless of course; it is through a specialist fitting agency. But all those fit models will be here anyway; and will get more of their own work. Those jobs are advertised in the Evening standard, gumtree, etc or through a casting agent who posts it up here in the castings.
So you apply for the job; and in your resume you link your MM port. And that is how it works. You go for an interview against maybe twenty other girls and they are all MM too.
No Agencies; not big budgets. But big fashion companies all do that.

You are talking about hundreds of professional freelance models; or Agency girls who have got the work through applyiong themselves. There is an absoute shedload of this work on offer. SOME Agency girls turn their nose up at it; or do when they realise the job they work ten days for pays the same as one Agency booking. So often the agency girls don't stick it out; which pisses off the design house.
So when they cast; what they want to know is can you commit. Can you commit to maybe 15 days a month every month. They know that the money on offer is not anything near what an Agency girl gets. But they also know to independent girls it is like Xmas to get such a job.

In addition to that as I have said you have thousands and thousands of small designers and boutiques who don't know where their next fabric money is coming from let alone book agency models. What happens is they find you here; on facebook, or you see a little advert saying 'model wanted' for ocassional work, or somone recommends you and they get in touch.

Then you have photographers who maybe those designers contact and say well I have £700 and I want to shoot these hats; can you find me a model and do it that is all I have. So they cast here too.

Maybe you should look at the castings here sometimes for models it may help illuminate you.

And that is how we get our work.

We are NOT bedroom models this article made out. They are here too unfortunately I acknowledge. But if you can't tell them apart from the proper models here with all your expereince I just can't fathom it. Unless of course; you are looking to get a model for nothing or little money. Well professional girls unless you are brilliant and they are very quiet (which is rare) or they really need a port update they won't do it. so most of the moaners here are looking to get girls for nothing. And those that will do that....well you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Of course if you are as daft as a brush even if you pay well you will still get monkeys. because IF you are giving a job then you should get references; same as any other employer.

Now as I have said when we get the type of work I have described which agency models usually won't do because the commitment is high for copmparitively low return (though you actually add it up and monthly it is probably not for off what most of them get and frequently more). Let's face it you go home with pins stuck in your arse and feet aching because you've been twelve hours in six inch heels. It is NOT what the agency girls had in mind fashion modelling is.

Many of us work really hard to do the work I have described and it is appreciated by the clients. We are made to feel an important part of the team. There are hundreds of us just in London and most are on MM.

then you have all the agency models whose agencies aren't giving the enough work as I described earlier.

So then we read all this crap. And it makes us very angry.
And your implication that clients haven't got time to sort through is an irelevance. WE TOUT FOR THE WORK. This is just where we host our ports. They don't go looking through the ports; they look when they see our business cards at some event or something.
"That Eliza seemed very nice....let's have a look on her z card. OOh she's on MM....lets have a look' That looks great; I will send her an email tomorrow and book her for the NEC where I am showing my spring collection."
Because she is a small designer who has spent all her money on being at the NEC trade fair and wants a model who go down the runway ok and can fucking talk to the clients afterward too.

Yes; when she gets bigger or gets a job designing with a high st chain it isn't up to her any more. She calls in the ad boys and agency models are used. But she is still maybe doing the odd fashion shows and so we still used.

Then of course you have a massive 'alt' fashion scene which has a parallel scenario.


Then of course you have all the fine art work. Again yes there is RAM but most models with a reputation for good work are freelance. Now again there is abosolutely no possibility you can flake. Or you will NEVER work again in the field. Some of these classes are on going for a whole term. And all the work is based on you as the model. Imagine twenty sculptures getting ready to go to the foundry all based on your body and you flake. What a disaster that would be!

So even art models have to be very reliable. Again; the Royal Academy doesn't come trawling round MM looking for suitable girls.
You go along; or send an email; and attach a few pics and link your MM port.
Bingo you are booked. and you DAREN'T let them down. During the course of a year this can yield anything between a few hundred and a few thousands pounds.
So you see when we get an email from a photographer here asking us to shoot tf it is not a very attractive proposition. If it is a paid gig; well c'est la vie if you get £200 instead of £800.

Now I have said ALL this already in this thread. But that is a recap JUST for you Tony because you appear still not to get it.

Now I take your point about agencies and budgets. But please do not compare us just because we have ports here to back alley mechanics. It is a massive insult to all of us based on a story of a couple of no shows booked on craigslist and the falkes on MM because photographers are trying to get something for nothing and going for wannabes who suddenly at last minute boyfriend throws a wobbly. They are NOT models. But we ARE. We just host ports here.

A R M wrote:
The amount of time you have spent answering to this thread might suggest otherwise, at least for you.

I come on here after plotting data; polishing slides; or looking down a microscope for an hour or two. You need 20 minutes doing something else.

For your information; I am not now a full time model. I am a scientist. But I was pretty much full time at Agent Provocateur, for 18 months or so.

Though I doubt I will be on MM for a while because I am off to Greenland on monday. I don't particularly want the other scientists seeing my MM port accidentally by looking at the computer history

The reason I have spent so much time on this is that a lot of the girls have been really upset by it. But moreover; while they get that the article was written by an utter moron; they think as do I that some of the crap written against us in THIS THREAD is an outrage beacuse fellow MMers should know better. And they know I will stand up to it. I have the full support of at least a dozen professional and good amateur/part time models; and actually quite a few photographers.

And once more; if all you slaters of MM models in this thread and the other similar ones you haunt have such a negative view of us what the fuck are you all doing here?

Eliza C wrote:
Look Tony I am not going to say this again.
I agree that if there is a budget for an Advertising Agency then that agency will do a campaign with the best available models money can buy. Even a smalller budget they will work within it but get less expensive girls from Agencies. That isn't in dispute.
Many of the girls here are with those agencies and have done those campaigns. Not often; hence they are here. The reason they are here is because they can tout themselves for other jobs. I know one girl who is here that did a HUGE campign. If I showed it here you'd ALL know it; it was worldwide for a drinks company. She got a lot of money for it. That is the only job apart from a small one for a catlaogue she got from the Agency that year. On MM she got a job doing promo at Brent Cross shopping centre. That pays her decent wages every now and then - at least 10 days a month - with all expenses paid. She gets to model but she is promoting a product no photos. Then she maybe does a couple photoshoots a month on top. Lately she has been getting more Agency work; but as I said for a year she didn't get much apart from the big one.

Now Advertising agencies with big budgets do not cast here; or anywhere else. They use model agencies; precisely for the reasons you say.

So. Imagine for a moment you need a model every day for fitting and odd modelling jobs in house for a fashion company; whether a big house; or a small designer. Which is basically every fashion company in the world; apart from really small designers like milliners, retro fashion companies, little lingerie companies etc. The latter  will get a model and use her maybe 5 times a month. Maybe another model twice a month. The big fashion concerns may employ up to four or five models in house; mostly on the payroll. Maybe one or two full time; the others part time. All will do fitting and showroom. They will also do shoots for merchandise catalogue, flyers, parts modelling etc. and shoots to send off to the manufacturers. They will do runway fashion shows, publicity stunts, and trade fairs. At those they will work alongside top Agency girls drafted in.
NONE of those models will be booked through an Agency (unless it is for the latter mentioned events) . Not ONE. Unless of course; it is through a specialist fitting agency. But all those fit models will be here anyway; and will get more of their own work. Those jobs are advertised in the Evening standard, gumtree, etc or through a casting agent who posts it up here in the castings.
So you apply for the job; and in your resume you link your MM port. And that is how it works. You go for an interview against maybe twenty other girls and they are all MM too.
No Agencies; not big budgets. But big fashion companies all do that.

You are talking about hundreds of professional freelance models; or Agency girls who have got the work through applyiong themselves. There is an absoute shedload of this work on offer. SOME Agency girls turn their nose up at it; or do when they realise the job they work ten days for pays the same as one Agency booking. So often the agency girls don't stick it out; which pisses off the design house.
So when they cast; what they want to know is can you commit. Can you commit to maybe 15 days a month every month. They know that the money on offer is not anything near what an Agency girl gets. But they also know to independent girls it is like Xmas to get such a job.

In addition to that as I have said you have thousands and thousands of small designers and boutiques who don't know where their next fabric money is coming from let alone book agency models. What happens is they find you here; on facebook, or you see a little advert saying 'model wanted' for ocassional work, or somone recommends you and they get in touch.

Then you have photographers who maybe those designers contact and say well I have £700 and I want to shoot these hats; can you find me a model and do it that is all I have. So they cast here too.

Maybe you should look at the castings here sometimes for models it may help illuminate you.

And that is how we get our work.

We are NOT bedroom models this article made out. They are here too unfortunately I acknowledge. But if you can't tell them apart from the proper models here with all your expereince I just can't fathom it. Unless of course; you are looking to get a model for nothing or little money. Well professional girls unless you are brilliant and they are very quiet (which is rare) or they really need a port update they won't do it. so most of the moaners here are looking to get girls for nothing. And those that will do that....well you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Of course if you are as daft as a brush even if you pay well you will still get monkeys. because IF you are giving a job then you should get references; same as any other employer.

Now as I have said when we get the type of work I have described which agency models usually won't do because the commitment is high for copmparitively low return (though you actually add it up and monthly it is probably not for off what most of them get and frequently more). Let's face it you go home with pins stuck in your arse and feet aching because you've been twelve hours in six inch heels. It is NOT what the agency girls had in mind fashion modelling is.

Many of us work really hard to do the work I have described and it is appreciated by the clients. We are made to feel an important part of the team. There are hundreds of us just in London and most are on MM.

then you have all the agency models whose agencies aren't giving the enough work as I described earlier.

So then we read all this crap. And it makes us very angry.
And your implication that clients haven't got time to sort through is an irelevance. WE TOUT FOR THE WORK. This is just where we host our ports. They don't go looking through the ports; they look when they see our business cards at some event or something.
"That Eliza seemed very nice....let's have a look on her z card. OOh she's on MM....lets have a look' That looks great; I will send her an email tomorrow and book her for the NEC where I am showing my spring collection."
Because she is a small designer who has spent all her money on being at the NEC trade fair and wants a model who go down the runway ok and can fucking talk to the clients afterward too.

Yes; when she gets bigger or gets a job designing with a high st chain it isn't up to her any more. She calls in the ad boys and agency models are used. But she is still maybe doing the odd fashion shows and so we still used.

Then of course you have a massive 'alt' fashion scene which has a parallel scenario.


Then of course you have all the fine art work. Again yes there is RAM but most models with a reputation for good work are freelance. Now again there is abosolutely no possibility you can flake. Or you will NEVER work again in the field. Some of these classes are on going for a whole term. And all the work is based on you as the model. Imagine twenty sculptures getting ready to go to the foundry all based on your body and you flake. What a disaster that would be!

So even art models have to be very reliable. Again; the Royal Academy doesn't come trawling round MM looking for suitable girls.
You go along; or send an email; and attach a few pics and link your MM port.
Bingo you are booked. and you DAREN'T let them down. During the course of a year this can yield anything between a few hundred and a few thousands pounds.
So you see when we get an email from a photographer here asking us to shoot tf it is not a very attractive proposition. If it is a paid gig; well c'est la vie if you get £200 instead of £800.

Now I have said ALL this already in this thread. But that is a recap JUST for you Tony because you appear still not to get it.

Now I take your point about agencies and budgets. But please do not compare us just because we have ports here to back alley mechanics. It is a massive insult to all of us based on a story of a couple of no shows booked on craigslist and the falkes on MM because photographers are trying to get something for nothing and going for wannabes who suddenly at last minute boyfriend throws a wobbly. They are NOT models. But we ARE. We just host ports here.

Eliza take a honest look around MM and yes there are some great faces but the majority of models here have ports like those described in that article.   That article wasn't written about you but as a overview of most of the web based models.    The fact is you like to write books here rather then focus on what folks actually say.    Real world clients with budgets should use models from licensed and bonded agencies. That does NOT mean there aren't solid models on-line but who has the freaking time to go looking for them.   Recall my ABS story?

This time I really am done.   Don't write a War and Peace reply unless you want someone else to see it.

Eliza C wrote:
I come on here after plotting data; polishing slides; or looking down a microscope for an hour or two. You need 20 minutes doing something else.

For your information; I am not now a full time model. I am a scientist. But I was pretty much full time at Agent Provocateur, for 18 months or so.

Though I doubt I will be on MM for a while because I am off to Greenland on monday. I don't particularly want the other scientists seeing my MM port accidentally by looking at the computer history

The reason I have spent so much time on this is that a lot of the girls have been really upset by it. But moreover; while they get that the article was written by an utter moron; they think as do I that some of the crap written against us in THIS THREAD is an outrage beacuse fellow MMers should know better. And they know I will stand up to it. I have the full support of at least a dozen professional and good amateur/part time models; and actually quite a few photographers.

And once more; if all you slaters of MM models in this thread and the other similar ones you haunt have such a negative view of us what the fuck are you all doing here?

I understand what you are saying Eliza even though some others don't.

Delete your history. 

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza take a honest look around MM and yes there are some great faces but the majority of models here have ports like those described in that article.   That article wasn't written about you but as a overview of most of the web based models.    The fact is you like to write books here rather then focus on what folks actually say.    Real world clients with budgets should use models from licensed and bonded agencies. That does NOT mean there aren't solid models on-line but who has the freaking time to go looking for them.   Recall my ABS story?

This time I really am done.   Don't write a War and Peace reply unless you want someone else to see it.

You see? Every time you open your mouth you put your foot in it. 'Great faces'. Now that automatically implies you have to be a face. Take a look at mine. I have been a full time pro model but I am under no illusions that my face is editorial beauty stuff or that I could ever do fashion editorial or campaign stuff. But I am good at my level and worked hard at it. Over a thousand modelling gigs in three and a half years and maybe only 12 decent tears. That is how much of a journeyman I am. But I clocked up a hell of a lot of modelling work in a short time because I used MM as it was meant: as a web port to send to contacts, cold mail, and apply for jobs. It works. TONS of work from it of the kind I could realistically expect. I never once applied for anything above my station. I am not a dreamer I just wanted to work and felt I had a good pose repetoirre and expression and wardrobe and creative ideas.  NOBODY ever said anything negative at all about me being on MM so I don't know where you get this idea it has a bad rep.

Now you actually do what I said and pick a city and go through all the models. yes there are some that are just dire; then some that are chancers. '£1k to get my boobs out' ports are here too. Then you have as many agency models of one kind or another.
Then the rest are very much representative of the models in this thread. One or two do some agency work; the rest are like me or high qiality alt modesl or quite a few doing very  high quality pro work like Jessa. And they picked on Jessa.

No I do NOT like to write books here. I just think if you are going to debate something at all it needs to be done properly. YOU are under a complete illusion. You CAN remain that way; it is up to you. But do yourself a favour I am writing it for YOUR benefit because you and Udor and a coupe of others don't seem quite as nasty  bigots as one or two others here.

This article was terrible; nothing redeeming about it at all. And anyone who thinks that it has any truth in it apart from maybe 10-20% of the models here needs to wake up and actually look at some ports. Try all the ones here in this thread for starters. Go on; do it. Then get back to us and say it was a fair representation of us. If you can do that fair enough. Even the ones that are just starting off or just doing it for enjoyment I doubt very much would be unreliable flakes or stripper rates girls or escort issue girls. And I think you will be very surprised by some of them. NOT ONE is like the article describes. Go ahead; it is a fair sample.

Furthermore; even the 10-20% of MM on the browse facility; or even if it is much higher in a particular area; that are dodgy; you can spot they are dodgy right?

I have a millinery and jewllery shoot in the morning so I had better go to bed.

Anyway you know how we feel about this article and I think it rotten of you if you haven't taken any of our points on board. To use Jessa's port was an absolute outrage.

And you still don't read what I do write.

ONCE MORE IN CAPITALS SO IT'S EASY AND SIMPLE.
YES: IF YOU HAVE THE BIG BUDGET AN AGENCY WILL AND SHOULD BE USED.

BUT....THOUSANDS OF REAL WORLD CLIENTS DO NOT HAVE BIG BUDGETS. THEY DON'T TRAWL MM. WE GO TO THEM WITH OUR Z CARDS AND THEY LOOK US UP AND EMAIL US WITH THE WORK. GEDDIT?

We are REAL MODELS WITH OUR PORTS ON THE INTERNET. The wannabes and the frauds are NOT MODELS. USE YOUR HEAD IF YOU WANT A MODEL GET A MODEL NOT A FAKE.

And I certainly don't tout for work from photographers; and never have. They book me through here because they are here. But it is a small part of my work and the rest comes FROM THE REAL WORLD because of my INTERNET PORT.

But IF ANY OF YOU CONFUSED PEOPLE ARE STILL FINDING THIS A PROBLEM THEN PERHAPS YES GO TO AN AGENCY; as CLEARLY you aren't SAFE out on your own .

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I understand what you are saying Eliza even though some others don't.

Delete your history. 

I know Jerry thank you so much for supporting us. It is very much appreciated xx

Problem is in Greenland I shall be on shared computers. And people have their work on them and  links to academic papers etc so I can't always delete history. Plus I will be working in the same room as others.

Eliza C wrote:

I know Jerry thank you so much for supporting us. It is very much appreciated xx

Problem is in Greenland I shall be on shared computers. And people have their work on them and  links to academic papers etc so I can't always delete history. Plus I will be working in the same room as others.

Then you will have to stay away from MM.   

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Then you will have to stay away from MM.   

Yeah. And The Racing Post and Betfair websites


Oh well. I am going to be very busy anyway.

All the best Jerry - and everyone else - see you when I get back x

Eliza C wrote:
I come on here after plotting data; polishing slides; or looking down a microscope for an hour or two. You need 20 minutes doing something else.

For your information; I am not now a full time model. I am a scientist. But I was pretty much full time at Agent Provocateur, for 18 months or so.

Though I doubt I will be on MM for a while because I am off to Greenland on monday. I don't particularly want the other scientists seeing my MM port accidentally by looking at the computer history

The reason I have spent so much time on this is that a lot of the girls have been really upset by it. But moreover; while they get that the article was written by an utter moron; they think as do I that some of the crap written against us in THIS THREAD is an outrage beacuse fellow MMers should know better. And they know I will stand up to it. I have the full support of at least a dozen professional and good amateur/part time models; and actually quite a few photographers.

And once more; if all you slaters of MM models in this thread and the other similar ones you haunt have such a negative view of us what the fuck are you all doing here?

Oh, I had not been informed you were named spokeswoman of the models here. Good to know.

I am on MM because this is a website that allows me to excercise my hobby at a cost I can justify. If I was a professional I would just go to agencies. That is why they exist.

Eliza C wrote:
This article was terrible; nothing redeeming about it at all. And anyone who thinks that it has any truth in it apart from maybe 10-20% of the models here needs to wake up and actually look at some ports.

Eliza , I agree with you on this and as well agree on much that you have written in this thread ( though I am not really a fashion insider )

I think though that you ( and others ) have given the article and the site that spawned it way too much crediblity ....Look a bit deeper at the site and you will see that its basically an on line Laddies Magazine ( probably started by college students ) and their view of what constitutes "Beauty " are leggy White Sports Illustrated Type Fashion Models in Bikini's ( see the sites "Girls" section )

Garry k wrote:

Eliza , I agree with you on this and as well agree on much that you have written in this thread ( though I am not really a fashion insider )

I think though that you ( and others ) have given the article and the site that spawned it way too much crediblity ....Look a bit deeper at the site and you will see that its basically an on line Laddies Magazine ( probably started by college students ) and their view of what constitutes "Beauty " are leggy White Sports Illustrated Type Fashion Models in Bikini's ( see the sites "Girls" section )

The article deserves criticism.