aaron lassman wrote:
When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage?

No. If I am prompted to provide images, the rate has to be negotiated.

aaron lassman wrote:
When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many?

When paying a model, I already have a finished image for the client. The model gets a low-res, tearsheet copy. It's just "image size", "save as". No extra work. End of story.

Some internet models live in a place called dreamland.

If they ask for more, they pay the normal fee for a finished image. If they have worked with me previously and tested, they get a discount. But I've never given out more than one or two images; anything more is silly and way too much work.

aaron lassman wrote:
But i'm curious as to how others manage this.  And i would love to hear from a model's perspective as well...  When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage?

Getting images from paid shoot is the norm for me.
How many varies from photographer to photographer.
I do not expect images from paid shoots and will not refuse to work with a photographer because they do not want to give me images.
If a photographer wants to negotiate a rate that includes photos i will consider it but i WILL expect to get those photos since they are now being included as part of the pay.
I don't solicit photographers directly for work that is paid in money and images but i don't see a problem with it, if you don't like the fee, don't hire them.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
I'm not sure it's sensible to agree images and cash, if only because if it doesn't go well you will find yourself having paid for an unproductive shoot (blame irrelevant) and facing x number of hours editing images you don't like for nothing.
That's why I wouldn't do it, anyway.
Sharing them afterwards because you feel like it is different.

+1  I don't mind sharing but I am not going above the amount I would edit for use. These days I refuse to edit more than 5 unless I am really really bored!

Red Sky Photography wrote:
No model I've hired has asked for images after the shoot. Every model I shoot gets images.

Same here.  But I'm just here to network and try to use what I've shot to get more work. 

In that sense an image I shot on a model's port is much more useful than the same image on mine.  It will get much more traffic on hers.

Project4145 wrote:

In that sense an image I shot on a model's port is much more useful than the same image on mine.  It will get much more traffic on hers.

Let us extrapolate that logic then. Let us assume you pay a model and give her pictures but she does not upload them to her port because it is full of superior work. Would you pay her an extra sum just for having her open a slot for your picture and "enjoy" the traffic?

I am sure many models would be open to do that.

Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable! 

So your work is worth a couple of bucks per picture?

me voy wrote:
Seems like the majority of photographers here on MM enjoy bringing the whole industry down. If I am paying a model, she/he gets nothing for free.

But what if she will accept a lower modeling fee in exchange for a few photos?

That's not free...that's saving YOU money...that's money that gets to stay in YOUR pocket.

As I've said many times - there are tens of thousands of women out there who will model for you...if you don't get the deal you want with one, move along to the next one.

4 R D wrote:

Let us extrapolate that logic then. Let us assume you pay a model and give her pictures but she does not upload them to her port because it is full of superior work. Would you pay her an extra sum just for having her open a slot for your picture and "enjoy" the traffic?

I am sure many models would be open to do that.

At that point she would be advertising as a side business and her port would suffer for it - which would make her less marketable.  I'm not sure that many models would do that as it would not be in their best interest in the long run. 

But to answer your question, of course I would if the price were right.

Project4145 wrote:

At that point she would be advertising as a side business and her port would suffer for it - which would make her less marketable.  I'm not sure that many models would do that as it would not be in their best interest in the long run. 

But to answer your question, of course I would if the price were right.

Maybe you should pay her VIP account too so she can feature more of your photos.

Seriously, you overestimate the value of that kind of exposure.

Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable! 

4 R D wrote:
So your work is worth a couple of bucks per picture?

I was just throwing out some figures for demonstration.

Here's another example:

-  Let's say a model quotes you $100/hour.

-  You counter with 2 photos total compensation to her for 2 hours modeling (because you feel your photos are worth $100/each).

-  If you're good enough (and they feel photos from you would have that much value for them), some models might agree to that deal...but most on MM would not.

Negotiation is something that seems to be very misunderstood on MM...negotiation is about finding a balance concerning who gets paid and how much - a balance where both parties are reasonably happy.

If you can't strike a satisfactory deal with one model, then move on to the next one.  (The model is responsible for striking a deal that he/she is satisfied with.)

4 R D wrote:
Maybe you should pay her VIP account too so she can feature more of your photos.

Seriously, you overestimate the value of that kind of exposure.

lol.  Whatever.  I think you overestimate the value of my opinion.  It makes no difference whatsoever to the way you live and work.

me voy wrote:
Seems like the majority of photographers here on MM enjoy bringing the whole industry down. If I am paying a model, she/he gets nothing for free.

It depends on the purpose of the shoot.  If I am shooting solely for my portfolio because its a look/concept I want to add then I have no issue sharing a few images of MY Choosing - the ones already going in my portfolio where the world can see them anyway.  I'm not going to refuse a model to use that image in her portfolio if she asks - that's just petty.

If I have another purpose for the images, perhaps to sell as stock, show later in a gallery or perhaps hope to publish one day in a book or magazine then no, the model will not see a copy. 

And if it's for a paying client then it is up to them to determine if or when it can be shared with the team, usually after it is made public by the client.

When I pay the delivery of images to the model is on my timeline, and could take months if I want it to.

Project4145 wrote:

lol.  Whatever.  I think you overestimate the value of my opinion.  It makes no difference whatsoever to the way you live and work.

Actually, it does. Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

Gary Melton wrote:

Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable! 

I was just throwing out some figures for demonstration.

Here's another example:

-  Let's say a model quotes you $100/hour.

-  You counter with 2 photos total compensation to her for 2 hours modeling (because you feel your photos are worth $100/each).

-  If you're good enough (and they feel photos from you would have that much value for them), some models might agree to that deal...but most on MM would not.

Negotiation is something that seems to be very misunderstood on MM...negotiation is about finding a balance concerning who gets paid and how much - a balance where both parties are reasonably happy.

If you can't strike a satisfactory deal with one model, then move on to the next one.  (The model is responsible for striking a deal that he/she is satisfied with.)

I understand where you are coming from and I actually have made in the past that kind of negotiation. Your first example sounded like a bad deal though!

4 R D wrote:
Actually, it does. Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

I'm affecting the model business in Mexico City?  Woo Hoo!  I have more influence than I thought! 

Seriously.  If I, a lowly hobbyist like yourself (from your profile), can shoot an image that a model like Carlotta Champagne - https://www.modelmayhem.com/3155 - will voluntarily post in her MM gallery, I think it gets me some traffic I would have never gotten on my own.  Her profile gets more traffic in a day than mine will get all year.  If people like it they will navigate to mine, because she was nice enough to also credit the photo, and my work will get a look that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise. 

All of that beside the fact that I learned a lot shooting with her and I got images that I couldn't have gotten shooting 100 TFP / cell phone models.  In one afternoon I got a dozen shots that make me look better than I am and also a heck of a lot of extra MM exposure.  It's worth it to me.  But that's just me.  I'm not here to tell anyone else how to make their choices.

4 R D wrote:
I understand where you are coming from and I actually have made in the past that kind of negotiation. Your first example sounded like a bad deal though!

...actually, I did leave out one part of the first example: the shoot was to last 60 straight hours - so $10/hour savings would have equaled $600.  Four photos to the model in consideration of the $10/hour discount equals a value of $150/photo.

4 R D wrote:
Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

Also, I don't pay models with mediocre looks or no experience.

I agree with you that there are a lot of those profiles on MM but look at how often, if ever, they update.  They don't.  Those profiles usually dry up.