Model
TheDivineGoddess
Posts: 23
Los Angeles, California, US
ms-photo wrote:
First of all, the market decides what the rates are. You can try to charge double the going rate, but you will not find any work.
The same thing works for photographers. The better quality photographers don't have to pay anything because they can collaborate or even have models pay them.
If you want to start charging for nudes, then you should have some nudes in your portfolio. A model with no experience shooting nudes is not going to be able to start out charging high rates.
The models who can charge the highest rates for nudes, are the ones with tons of experience, with a huge portfolio and have built a "name" for themselves as being reliable and trustworthy (i.e. not a flake).
The best models are also up for anything, shooting outdoors or in a studio. They are not worried about awkward situations or bad quality pictures, instead they have a spirit of adventure, and artistic collaboration. A model that is insecure and worried about everything is not going to be any fun to shoot with.
As a potential photographer reading this thread and viewing your portfolio, the information I'm gathering is that you have no experience nude modeling, are worried about shooting outdoors and maybe even indoors, you want to have editorial control over the final images and yet expect me to pay super high rates. This all adds up to "I'll pass" because there are plenty of experienced and reliable models I can work with instead.
My advice if you really want to get started, is to build your portfolio by working TFP with photographers you admire (even experienced professional models still do this from time to time).
Then when you want to start charging, try to gauge what the market rates are (if you are not getting any work, then you are charging too much).
If you are expecting any sort of editorial control over the final images, the only way to do this is by hiring a photographer to shoot exactly what you want.
This doesn't mean if you are charging that you will have to work with every crappy photographer out there, you can still check out their portfolio and choose who you want to work with or not.
Full time models will usually still shoot with crappy photographers, but will charge them higher rates since there is no chance of getting anything portfolio worthy from them. They might charge experienced photographers lower rates and even shoot TFP with the best photographers, to keep their portfolio updated.
Hope this helps. I'm worried more about overexposure than anything. I do enough performance arts to get by I'm more curious about being advised and discussing advice I've been giving that I was unsure about. Now I realize why I was so unsure about their advice >.
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21320
Seattle, Washington, US
Schlake wrote:
Most photographers here will rant and rail and rave about a model with the audacity to stand up for herself as you asked about in your post. So be ready for that. I say avoid those photographers, they smell like misogynists, and act like misogynists...
My best advice is to be very picky about who you shoot with. Then, shoot non-nude with them a few times to make sure you were correct about them. The quality of the port has nothing to do with it. It's the quality of the person. Most photographers here with skills won't rant and rail and rave, but will simply and quietly pass.
Those who rant and rail and rave do so for other reasons. Misogyny is a red herring.
But what do I know? I only shoot crappy nudes.
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Divinezs wrote:
Have done a few nude/implied shoots I am looking to start a consistent paying career in nude modeling. I'm a dancer, aerialist and hooper I do alot of gigs which I am paid for but with nude modeling I feel less on top of the game. Does anyone have any advice for me on the matter? I would not like to do nudes with compensation and I feel that most of the compensated amounts on nude shoots is too low and the photos are not of very high quality. I dont want low quality/smutty photos of me released can I make my own contract for nudity in addition to a model release that prohibits the use of certain types of photos? Any help on the matter is very appreciated. I think my words are a bit scattered on this post so please bear with me. If the food industry were hiring all of its workers on a day basis and you told me you only wanted to work vegetarian...
and that it should be gourmet vegetarian..
and that you were thinking you should have the restaurant sign a contract giving you approval over the menu...
and then you asked me how I think you'll do.
Photographer
FrancisXavier
Posts: 43
San Diego, California, US
I concur entirely with Laura Unbound and with ms-photo. Accept what the reality is for a nude model, and set your rates at a level that photographers in your area are willing to pay. The super-artistic, talented photographers that you so admire have a vast talent pool to choose from, and it is unlikely that they will consider a relatively new model to work with, and if they do, since their reputation is far more known than yours, they will expect you to work for free at first. Setting your standards to so high an level of expectation, while admirable, will usually only result in your disappointment. You will have to work with amateur photographers, and you will have to deal with varied talents that they possess. Some of the work you will get will be fantastic, most of it average, and some of it disappointing. When it comes to how you wish to pose, the more the word "NO" is used by you, the fewer the opportunities to work will come your way. If you don't want your genitalia to be on the internet, then accept that you will not have much opportunity to get photo shoots that pay.
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
Quality photographers probably aren't going to pay you to take your clothes off unless they're working on a third party clients project, which most people from mm don't have.
If you just want good nude photos then pay or trade with a good photographer +1 The way that most traveling nude models make their living off of MM is to work with amateur photographers that simply want to pay to shoot a nude. Before you start thinking about this as a "career" per say, I might suggest to find an experienced photographer that you trust to try doing nudes to see if it is your thing or not. A seasoned photographer will know how to help pose as well vs. having smutty poses per say. There is a difference between fine art, and porn. You will find that some out there will argue this, but there is a difference.
Last but not least, most photographers will not sign a models contract. Instead, you may want to consider researching some nude poses online that you are comfortable working with to know what your limits are. That way, on a shoot you can know what you want to and don't want to do. good luck
Photographer
VonTuck
Posts: 54
Marietta, Georgia, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
Reasons people pay models from the Internet:
-they can't get that model to shoot trade with them (generally means you're going to find their work to be crappy)
-they want to work with an experienced model (you'd have to be an experienced nude model to fill this role)
-they've exhausted their local model pool and this model is traveling through their town(you'd have to take up traveling)
-they have the right look for a project funded by a client (.01% chance of finding this on MM)
The reason if you want to get paid to shoot nudes that you would have to be okay with people taking crappy photos of you nude...is because those are the people who pay. Experienced amazing photographers who you'd be honored to be photographed by aren't paying some chick from the Internet to come over me drop trou for them.
Thems the breaks. Any full time nude model you see on this site has had hundreds of unflattering nude photos taken of her. Not all of them are so horrendous you'd be embarrassed if they ever saw the light of day, but they're not great, they're not something those models want for their portfolios....which is why they charged for them. Damn! Well said.
Photographer
Boudoir Studio
Posts: 322
Santa Clarita, California, US
Charlie-CNP wrote:
...consider researching some nude poses online that you are comfortable working with to know what your limits are. That way, on a shoot you can know what you want to and don't want to do. good luck You can also build an MM list of images that reflect what you would like to shoot. Very helpful when communicating with photographers. Find models in your area that shoot nude and ask for suggested photographers. I have shot a number of first time nudes that all came to me as referrals...
Photographer
VonTuck
Posts: 54
Marietta, Georgia, US
I will personally not sign a contract with you as the model to control any image I shoot unless you are paying me for that privilege. Then you are a client and you can dictate the images kept and/or used.
However, if you look over my work, you will see what kind of photos I am interested in doing. THAT is your indicator as to whether I would post up some vulgar crap pic of you.
In a shoot with a nude model where you are taking hundreds of photos some of them come back with splays, unflattering, full genitalia, etc... It happens, it just does, but if you look and see, I'm not interested in those, they go on the cutting room floor.
Check a portfolio, be professional, and you should be fine.
Photographer
Image Magik
Posts: 1515
Santa Cruz, California, US
Schlake wrote:
Most photographers here will rant and rail and rave about a model with the audacity to stand up for herself as you asked about in your post. So be ready for that. I say avoid those photographers, they smell like misogynists, and act like misogynists... ?? Most? Why would you say that? Are you one of those photographers?
Photographer
K E E L I N G
Posts: 39894
Peoria, Illinois, US
Schlake wrote:
Most photographers here will rant and rail and rave about a model with the audacity to stand up for herself as you asked about in your post. So be ready for that. I say avoid those photographers, they smell like misogynists, and act like misogynists...
My best advice is to be very picky about who you shoot with. Then, shoot non-nude with them a few times to make sure you were correct about them. The quality of the port has nothing to do with it. It's the quality of the person. I'd like to respectfully suggest that there's a possibility you may be incorrect about that.
Photographer
Image Magik
Posts: 1515
Santa Cruz, California, US
Divinezs wrote:
Have done a few nude/implied shoots I am looking to start a consistent paying career in nude modeling. I'm a dancer, aerialist and hooper I do alot of gigs which I am paid for but with nude modeling I feel less on top of the game. Does anyone have any advice for me on the matter? I would not like to do nudes with compensation and I feel that most of the compensated amounts on nude shoots is too low and the photos are not of very high quality. I dont want low quality/smutty photos of me released can I make my own contract for nudity in addition to a model release that prohibits the use of certain types of photos? Any help on the matter is very appreciated. I think my words are a bit scattered on this post so please bear with me. You can do whatever you want. Shooting nudes is no different than shooting slighty clothed if your working with the right photographer. I think it's a liberating experience my self.
If your shooting nudes for money good paying photographers are not in as great a number as GWC's. You may have to make a choice between money and art some of the time.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
If you want to make a CAREER out of nude modeling, you need to be willing to accept that less than beautiful photos of you are going to be on the internet forever. It's hard work, and it requires an incredible amount of mental, physical and emotional energy invested, in order to model for income. I did it for six years, quit for almost two years, and am now resuming shooting again. 2-3 years ago, I made a thread that took the most important things I learned working as a freelance nude model, and condensed them down. All kinds of people contributed all kinds of information. It's long, but it's a useful read. Since I wrote this, I've learned even more, and should probably do a new one at some point, since this one just gets lost deeper and deeper in the dead-thread-cemetery, despite the fact that it has A LOT of good advice in it, from many experienced models: https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=609835
Photographer
Rick Dupuis Photography
Posts: 6825
Truro, Nova Scotia, Canada
Divinezs wrote:
nude models I have spoken with that I should never do nude work unpaid unless its with someone I know very well and is experimental How many great photographers do you know very well?
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
if you want complete control over everything then shooting with random guys for pay doesn't sound like a good choice to me.
if you are worried that the guy will be a creeper then shooting with random guys (for pay or not for pay) doesn't sound like a good choice to me. my hair stylist got creeped on with her first model shoot that was arranged via facebook. there are creepers and unless you are prepared to deal with them (down boy, i'll tell your wife, etc.) then maybe don't go there.
and be aware that some photographers will not allow on-set escorts.
seems like maybe you'd be happier with a muse relationship with a couple topnotch (depending on your definition of that) photographers.
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11723
Olney, Maryland, US
Divinezs wrote:
... I think my words are a bit scattered on this post so please bear with me. Divinezs wrote:
I'v had some bad experiences with photographers and looking back on those situations I wasnt clear enough with boundaries etc. Communication is so important! It can't be over-emphasized.
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11723
Olney, Maryland, US
Rays Fine Art wrote:
4- The idea of a mentor (above) is a good one, but if possible, at least one mentor should be someone, model or photographer, who has earned a living for an appreciable period in nude photography. Hobbies and businesses are significantly different and require completely different mind sets. Keep in mind that the mentors on the mentor list are self-selected. They were not vetted by Model Mayhem.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
regarding not being clear with boundaries i think some guys take that as a challenge. they love the hunt, the chase, talking a girl into doing more (whether it's sex or taking their clothes off for the camera). it's in their nature (and they choose not to control it). if you don't like that kind of guy then the trick is to learn to spot those guys upfront and avoid shooting with them. but there are photographers who might be better served finding an escort from backpage or are simply looking for a young girlfriend (in which case they might be better served by being a sugar daddy to a girl who needs to pay her tuition).
i got a haircut yesterday and my stylist talked about a skeevy shoot where she got talked into more than had been discussed. she was new and unsure and just kind of went with the flow but kind of regretted it later. she simply wasn't ready to deal with an aggressive photographer like that. the shoot was arranged via facebook, not mayhem.
if you've set boundaries and the photographer tries to exceed them (it's one thing to ask but certainly not ok to keep pushing) then i think you should leave immediately. forget the pictures. your mental health is more important.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Divinezs wrote:
Its not about the money to me in all honesty. The last time I did nude work I was only compensated for gas. I think 100 an hour is fair for nude work. 50 an hour was what I found low and what I see alot of the time. I'd rather do shoots that are not hourly but rather about quality. Set rate for getting all the pix required. I need to work my way up a bit but I don't want raunchy photos I'd rather not have genitals actually exposed...legs cover it even if i just stand with them crossed barely (yay for thighs). I'm curious as to the best way to do pin up clean well edited nudes and get just a few quality shots. I'm not saying its easy or realistic but I am determined to do what I want to do and if I can't then I just wont do it. My aerial art is what I am truly passionate about and I travel and perform and wouldn't want raunchy material to ruin that..however...I feel that inspiring nude work would aid in my aerial/dancer/fire career. Only for an experienced nude model!
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
DVS wrote:
Ah...to be the newbie model full of fluffy dreams and high-expectant wishes. ^__^
To be completely honest, a model coming to a photographer with their own release/contract will find themselves without much work...at least not through professionals. As for rates, you would find much more success in attaining the fees you wish with a stellar portfolio. However, to attain such a portfolio, you may have to pay a professional or work trade with professionals. Expecting anything else without putting some work or money into it may be fruitless. Best of luck! I have photographed many nude models and paid them but would be reluctant to work with the OP.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Dekilah wrote:
I will also add that I think we may have similar limits. I generally do not shoot with genitalia showing. I have done the select few shoots, but not many. And if you do see "lips" it is from the front and not in your face. I am actually quite particular about this, but it rarely comes up because of how I pose. I know how to tilt my hips and angle myself to the camera to the point that I can pose with my legs apart without showing anything. I am also quite straight-forward with photographers about this. I usually include a bit in the shoot communication (if the concept seems it might be relevant) that says something like "I am comfortable posing fully nude, but I do prefer not to show genitalia in most cases. If a shot is close to my limit, we can discuss it before we shoot or as we are shooting. I generally pose myself in a way that nothing shows that I do not want showing, but if you do want to try something we can chat about it."
I have found that most photographer's portfolios tend to give you a pretty good idea of what they tend to shoot. If you see shots that seem over or close to your limits, chat a bit with them about it. If not, it probably will not be an issue, particularly if you pose in a way that does not really allow for shots of things you do not want showing. Sometimes it shows and sometimes it doesn't. This is not something that is important to me. Most of this time I let an experienced model do her posing.
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Schlake wrote:
... shoot non-nude with them a few times to make sure you were correct about them. You actually think that photographers or models actually have time to shoot a few clothed shoots just to check each other out before shooting nude?
I'd never get anything done if it were that complicated and time consuming.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Sophistocles wrote:
Most photographers here with skills won't rant and rail and rave, but will simply and quietly pass.
Those who rant and rail and rave do so for other reasons. Misogyny is a red herring.
But what do I know? I only shoot crappy nudes. This is true because there are many other models to photograph. 
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Divinezs wrote:
Its not about the money to me in all honesty. The last time I did nude work I was only compensated for gas. I think 100 an hour is fair for nude work. 50 an hour was what I found low and what I see alot of the time. I'd rather do shoots that are not hourly but rather about quality. Set rate for getting all the pix required. I need to work my way up a bit but I don't want raunchy photos I'd rather not have genitals actually exposed...legs cover it even if i just stand with them crossed barely (yay for thighs). I'm curious as to the best way to do pin up clean well edited nudes and get just a few quality shots. I'm not saying its easy or realistic but I am determined to do what I want to do and if I can't then I just wont do it. My aerial art is what I am truly passionate about and I travel and perform and wouldn't want raunchy material to ruin that..however...I feel that inspiring nude work would aid in my aerial/dancer/fire career. You are not likely to make $100/hr, at least not for the first few years. When you're new, and no one knows you, $50/hr is a REASONABLE expectation, if you are going into it with a really solid portfolio already, and some references. If you don't even have that, don't expect to even pull down $50/hr.
Even then, the only thing I ever made $100/hr, consistently, with was fetish content, and that was after four years of working my ass off, and being willing to shoot for pretty much any niche fetish site, or content collector, who would have me and not be too far outside my limits.
I'm not saying $100/hr is an irrational expectation - after you put in YEARS of hard work, networking, traveling and portfolio-building. There are models out there who are making that, but it took a lot of effort to get there. There is almost no one who can just start advertising they shoot nudes, and like magic, be getting $100/hr. That's not generally how these things work.
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
Divinezs wrote:
Good point. I suppose this thread has helped me decide that quality is more important to me than money. I should definitely look to do more work with some of my friend photographers who I know wont post anything bad. Even if it's unpaid they can help me meet other photographers who may pay and I would rather be able to get the images I want then make 200 bucks for an awkward set of beater-shots There you go. It's all about being selective. Quality will beget money and you're off and running. The "easy money" shooting low quality images is its own quagmire.
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 10064
Santa Barbara, California, US
Laura has hit the nail on the head and I'm probably going to repeat what has been said already;
Just as in any other genre of modeling you have to start somewhere and pay your dues, nude modeling is no different and quality art nude modeling takes time and experience to make an income from.
As a photographer of nude art, I would only offer you trade at best because I have no reason to "hire" you for an art project... I have no idea how you pose, interpret and express a given concept. Conceptualizing and collaborating with the photographer, knowing lighting direction and using that with the lines and shapes of your pose is key to being a pro nude model.
Now you could just stand there naked in front of any Joe GWC and flat lighting and look glamorous or naughty all you want but is that what you really want, is that the quality of photos you want on the net for ever? if so then you can make quicker money that way without even trying but you still have to prove yourself relatively and do some trades to get a portfolio going.
Best of luck and research, reference and decide what you want out of nude modeling and make it your passion. It may cost you in the beginning in time or cash but you will get some photos you want to start with.
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 288
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
If you don't want bad photos of you in compromising poses on the Internet....don't pose that way for bad photographers.
I don't know what you consider to be a "career" with modeling, but typically that means you're making it a source of income...which means you'd be getting paid to model nude. If you want to make a solid career with nude modeling you have to be willing to have amateur photos of you without your clothes on all over the Internet, that's the way it works. Quality photographers probably aren't going to pay you to take your clothes off unless they're working on a third party clients project, which most people from mm don't have.
If you just want good nude photos then pay or trade with a good photographer +1000
I model different genres but specialize in fine art nudes. If you aren't willing to get photographed by people that are not necessarily "amazing," then there is an extremely small chance of you having a career in being a nude model. Though it's hard to have a career as a nude model regardless.
If you just want to create amazing fine art photos, then shoot w/select photographer who have a great portfolio (who do the kinds of nudes you are willing to do) w/good references. I have amended model releases in the past where I have done nudes to state that no shots w/spread legs/vag shots are permitted (sometimes as the model you can be unaware of what is showing). It doesn't hurt to ask the photographer if s/he is okay with that.
I know some terrific fine art photographers in LA. if you are interested, I can give you names.
Photographer
Eralar
Posts: 1781
Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada
One thing... just my 0.02 cents. If your goal is only to have good images of yourself in the nude and have an artistic blast in the process with photographers that will respect your limits, going pay might not be the best option. On the contrary, you might want to open a nude port as Rays Fine Art suggested, and offer to do limited TF with only photographers you feel that show the quality and respect you expect for those shoots. I think that by going this way, you open way more possibilities to work with great photographers / artists, who might even be open to collaborative work with you if they enjoyed the experience (where you come with the idea together, or work on some of your artistic ideas). This is, of course, just a suggestion Eric
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Gallery-MG wrote:
As others have said , find a photographer whose work you admire and ask for a TF shoot. Expecting to be paid with no nude modeling experience isn't realistic, unless you're posing for GWCs. If this is only going to be a hobby, you can be very selective whom you work with. +1
No decent portfolio = no decent offers = no decent photos..... it's a vicious cycle.
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
DLH Photo
Posts: 344
Seattle, Washington, US
You might consider paying a photographer whose work you like to get a good nude portfolio started.
Model
TheDivineGoddess
Posts: 23
Los Angeles, California, US
Richard Tallent wrote:
Let:
M = the value of the model's look and skill to the photographer
S = the value of the photographs **to the customer** of the photographer if any
D = the model's out of pocket costs
P = the value of the resulting photographs **to the model**
A = the model's agency's cut
F = the photographer's profit from the shoot
E = the photographer's out of pocket costs
To solve for C, the model's compensation, use the following equation:
C = (M + S + D) - (P + A + F + E)
With photo shoots booked over the Internet, S, A, and F are generally 0, and D and E are minimal or roughly equal unless the model is traveling.
This allows the equation to be simplified somewhat:
C = M - P
So, as a general rule, the more you are paid, the less valuable the photos will be to you. The better the photographs are, the more limited the compensation will be.
To have a high C and a high P, the M you offer must be equal their sum.
Because you're willing to model nude, you've multiplied your M tenfold -- only about 1 in 10 models are nude-friendly. But that multiplier is still applied to your look and skill, so those will be the limiting factor of M.
As you increase M, you can charge more to the same photographer, or you can hold C constant and work with photographers who offer a higher P.
You have to decide how to balance C and P as you learn to increase M. The more you choose money, the worse the photos will be. If you chase awesome photos, the compensation will suck.
That said, one cool thing about M and P is that they are somewhat dependent. The better you are, the better the photos will be. And, the better the photographer is, the better they will make your skills and looks appear in your portfolio, which maximizes your M. This is incredibly helpful thankyou. I'm a very artistic person and I really do enjoy working with quality photographers. My focus for all modeling is quality over compensation...I heard from some nude models to always get pay however we seem to have differences in our intention and interests as far as modeling. Your advice is much appreciated!
Model
TheDivineGoddess
Posts: 23
Los Angeles, California, US
Eralar wrote:
One thing... just my 0.02 cents. If your goal is only to have good images of yourself in the nude and have an artistic blast in the process with photographers that will respect your limits, going pay might not be the best option.
On the contrary, you might want to open a nude port as Rays Fine Art suggested, and offer to do limited TF with only photographers you feel that show the quality and respect you expect for those shoots.
I think that by going this way, you open way more possibilities to work with great photographers / artists, who might even be open to collaborative work with you if they enjoyed the experience (where you come with the idea together, or work on some of your artistic ideas).
This is, of course, just a suggestion
Thankyou very much:) I'm thrilled with the responses to this thread. I'v been ambivelent about getting more into nude work due to so much conflicting information this has helped bring alot of clarity to the subject. For me it really is about having good photos and getting to be artistic and collaborative
Eric
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 6020
Fairfax, Virginia, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
If you don't want bad photos of you in compromising poses on the Internet....don't pose that way for bad photographers.
I don't know what you consider to be a "career" with modeling, but typically that means you're making it a source of income...which means you'd be getting paid to model nude. If you want to make a solid career with nude modeling you have to be willing to have amateur photos of you without your clothes on all over the Internet, that's the way it works. Quality photographers probably aren't going to pay you to take your clothes off unless they're working on a third party clients project, which most people from mm don't have.
If you just want good nude photos then pay or trade with a good photographer +1
Laura knows what she's talking about.
Here's the deal: if you want to be extremely selective with whom you shoot (ie: no amateurs, nothing that seems tawdry or erotic or explicit, not end up on some website that implies you're a slut or eager to get laid), then you need to be very, very selective with whom you shoot. And that means you'll turn away a LOT of potential business.
Talk to models on this site who pose nude and do so full time and make a good amount of money and most of them will tell you that much if not most of their income comes from GWCs or people seeking shots for their "private collection".
None of these means it's either limits and lose a lot of money or no limits and pose for porn. But if you're going to be very restrictive in how you pose and who you shoot for, you're going to be very happy with your portfolio but probably turn away a lot of money.
Ed
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