Hugh Alison wrote:

Eliza makes some good points (when you can find them).

I shoot for free, or I shoot at my full rate.
I never shoot "cheap" - I am never going to be known as a "cheap photographer".

I use the same principle in the day job, and it works.

Hi, Hugh.   On sites like MM most of the work is TF.   So cheap may not be all that bad.  Rates for our work have fallen significantly.   A product shoot that might net over a grand might get you a few hundred today at best.  Is some money better then none at all?   The DOL reports that in the US the average model makes under $20.00 per hour.   So is $25.00 a insult?   Editorial rates pay around the same.   $200.00 to $400.00 per day.   Yes its a tear sheet but not always.   Lots of models do editorial work that never sees the light of day.   I know guys who do $500.00 weddings.   Others would laugh at that rate.   Is the OP a published model?   She seems to be.   Can she command more money, I don't know but she's asked the community what we think so she doesn't know.

If I worked at Wal-Mart $25.00 would sound great.   If I did IT its nothing.   Help desk, IT.   Not so bad.

Hugh Alison wrote:
Eliza makes some good points (when you can find them).

I shoot for free, or I shoot at my full rate.
I never shoot "cheap" - I am never going to be known as a "cheap photographer".

I use the same principle in the day job, and it works.

Very well stated.

People who offer you substantially less than you are worth in any field are insulting you.

What photographer would agree to shoot a wedding for $ 20 an hour because otherwise he'd be twiddling thumbs and some pay is worth more than none? If a photographer chooses to shoot a wedding for a friend and not charge them that is fair enough.

It is the manner of approach that can offend. If a friend offered you $20 an hour for just the five hours you were shooting (ie mot understanding all the post shoot work etc) then I suspect however they wouldn't be your friend very long!

It also really annoys me the attitude thatvwe should be somehow obliged for altruistic reasons to help fellow creatives for low pay. If we offer that is different; but the expectation and low pay take it or leave it and teal models wouldn't be mercenary attitude can be insulting.

If I model for charity I model for Charity events. Last one was at a Save the Children event a few weeks ago and my milliner client paid for three course lunch, first class train fare, and champagne all day. The hat commission was auctioned and raised £1000.

This one for AP and Racing Welfare. Again I was extremely well looked after with three course dinner and champagne for 2 plus all expenses paid (hotel, train etc) and a £450 dress from another client for me to wear and keep. Altogether the two auction lots I modelled (2 pictures I was in plus corset) raised £1750.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LcDfFaI6Bfc

If I want to model for free I can any time for higher altruistic reasons than 'helping talent', and still get a better deal than $40.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Hi, Hugh.   On sites like MM most of the work is TF.   So cheap may not be all that bad.  Rates for our work have fallen significantly.   A product shoot that might net over a grand might get you a few hundred today at best.  Is some money better then none at all?   The DOL reports that in the US the average model makes under $20.00 per hour.   So is $25.00 a insult?   Editorial rates pay around the same.   $200.00 to $400.00 per day.   Yes its a tear sheet but not always.   Lots of models do editorial work that never sees the light of day.   I know guys who do $500.00 weddings.   Others would laugh at that rate.   Is the OP a published model?   She seems to be.   Can she command more money, I don't know but she's asked the community what we think so she doesn't know.

If I worked at Wal-Mart $25.00 would sound great.   If I did IT its nothing.   Help desk, IT.   Not so bad.

Any educated model here can go and do high end temping in London for £75 an hour. They pay three tines what the normal office worker gets because it's not regular. Supply teachers the same. No holiday pay etc.

When I worked fit, I got holiday pay, NI paid etc. But even that was FAR more highly paid than what you ate suggesting. WHY on earth would you waste a day when you could be doing those for eg on working for $40 for two hours? Do we look like morons?

I really cannot see why you fail to understand that a job at a London supermarket paying £10 an hour in a week makes £400, plus overtime etc plus tax and NI paid. So no....your offer will NOT sound attractive to them AT ALL.
If you are a model, you can earn similar and more doing promo fit and life modelling. You'd be bonkers to take a day off risking losing a regular work offer to work for peanuts,for two hours.

It's not going to happen and of course as we know, DOES NOT happen that often. For reasons I have outlined.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
People are worth what they get.   I think if you are a professional model with published tears who has a great face and figure you can demand better rates.   If you aren't published or not in demand then less.   I don't know where some folks think they are but on this site photographers aren't racing out to pick money from a tree like apples.  The average wage earner in the US makes around $20.00 a hour before taxes.   I know MM models aren't average but thinking some goof is going to rain money on you for shooting fashion...

The models on sites like this who get paid tend to be nude.   Most men don't know fashion or care.   They want to see attractive women naked and will pay for that privilege.   If you have a great look, height, weight and don't want to take your clothes off then go to a agency.   By the way I seem to recall a point expressed that models are paid for the wardrobe they provide.   That's a new one.   Photographers pay models for their overall look.   Most members here aren't rich and if you think that their reaching into their wallet to shoot you in your new Donna Karan, you're likely mistaken.

But they do. You are the one mistaken. That's EXACTLY what most photographers here pay me to do.



Those photographers aspiring to shoot fashion may not know much about fashion to start with but with the right models soon learn. That was published in two publications and the photographer shot for Pierre
Garroudi shortly after.

And of course they know I have good designer clients so it's never a problem to get wardrobe for editorial shoots.
Lascivious lingerie and Pippa Eastman creations and Gil Clement jewellery for Valentine's issue of Cotswold Life (6 pages of other fashions including my avatar with two other models too). The photographer Carl Ryan was more than pleased as was the magazine and the designers.




I used to shoot nude; I found very little demand for it once the gwcs were removed. The odd one; but not much and dont get me wrong there was  no question of lack of enthusiasm. Modelled both nude and clothed for Marco Sanges for eg.  But when you can model fir Art institutions and he fully booked for months with such work that's what photographers shooting nudes are up against: artists always pay. And as I said you only have to look at castings to show the majority are non nude. And again just look at the credits of London models I have already cited if you doubt me.
Note to London models: dont forget the fit and lookbook castings currently up.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
First, this is a general comment.   Lets not personalize anything.   I don't care what any individual model makes.   If you do not have a job then some money beats none.   If you work at Wal-Mart then shoot your days off or after work.   If you are in demand then raise your rates.   If not go down.   Most of all thinking that photographers without paying clients or a way to recoup their cash are going to pay you any significant cash...   for non nude.   Give me some of what your're smoking.

We are interested in photographers with paying clients, or helping them to get them. Or with gallery outlets and publications interested.

Otherwise we are after work with designers boutiques fashion houses doing fit and showroom and runway; with promo agencies and other commercial modelling or fashion agencies, or with Art institutions and artists, or with productions in theater movies and tv , with presenter work with grid girl work etc. Often such work is on castings and judge by the responses to those as opposed to tf castings from photographers.

It's not like I am an outlier. The dozen London models I cited earlier do similar to me - they get booked for their image wardrobe etc by photographers and third parties that RETAIN them give them regular work and sponsor them with clothing. I mean do you never go to places like Coco de Mer when they have an event on? Who do you think those models are?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTxEJG8_05w

So as I say if you have a talent like music dance or acting you don't have to look far for work in London and photographers lap such models up too and pay their rates because they are worth every cent

We aren't interested in those who can't afford us.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
We are interested in photographers with paying clients, or helping them to get them. Or with gallery outlets and publications interested.

Otherwise we are after work with designers boutiques fashion houses doing fit and showroom and runway; with promo agencies and other commercial modelling or fashion agencies, or with Art institutions and artists, or with productions in theater movies and tv , with presenter work with grid girl work etc. Often such work is on castings and judge by the responses to those as opposed to tf castings from photographers.




We aren't interested in those who can't afford us.

Unless you represent every freelance model in the UK.  Models are paid for their look.   On these cites I see precious few of the things you describe.   Its mostly photographers who are paying to see women naked and pose them in cool places.  Not interested in those can't afford you   That's rich.   It really is.   This on a site where over the last four years I've been asked by at least ten travelling nude art models to let them stay with me in Texas and Chicago.



We aren't interested in those who can't afford us."   That is truly funny.   Thanks for the laugh.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Unless you represent every freelance model in the UK.  Models are paid for their look.   On these cites I see precious few of the things you describe.   Its mostly photographers who are paying to see women naked and pose them in cool places.  Not interested in those can't afford you   That's rich.   It really is.   This on a site where over the last four years I've been asked by at least ten travelling nude art models to let them stay with me in Texas and Chicago.



We aren't interested in those who can't afford us."   That is truly funny.   Thanks for the laugh.

We aren't. If we were ,  there  wouldn't be these multiple pathetic whiny threads asking why models don't respond and photographers,wouldn't be trying to book girls with selfie ports.



I think I have done enough to show what freelance and agency  models in London with dance skills and good designer/boutique contacts do. I've given two dozen in this thread I know or know of. I could give dozens more if necessary.

As I said this is London.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

We aren't. If we were ,  there  wouldn't have these multiple pathetic whiny threads asking why models don't respond.


Well you certainly have written a lot of stuff.   I always like that stairway shot of you.    A lot of us can't pay or pay much so sadly we miss out on great models like you.   Have a nice night.

I think I have done enough to show what freelance and agency  models in London with dance skills and good designer/boutique contacts do. I've given two dozen in this thread I know or know of. I could give dozens more if necessary.

As I said this is London.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... odd.

A lot of photographers can't pay much or at all.   So sadly we miss out on great models like you.
Have a nice night or morning.

Funny how artists can always find the money.

Come to think of it, it would appear plenty of photographers can also find it.  In fact I have seldom worked with many just the once. Some many times so it would appear some think I'm good value.

Of course people here can take your advice and insights or

mine. On times, maybe there's truth in both for people to consider.

But I will let people decide for themselves on this particular thread who is most reliable when one of us doesn't apparently know the time of day in London


Have a nice day too.

Angela Hamilton wrote:
For a nude shoot?
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)?
For a nude+dance shoot?
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc)/
What are everyone's thoughts on a fair rate for these kinds of shoots?

Depends on your experience as a model, If you model once a month then would you call yourself an be experienced model ?

The Something Guy wrote:
Depends on your experience as a model, If you model once a month then would you call yourself an be experienced model ?

Dance is a related field.

If you think Angela has no transferable skills yet that qualify her as a model I'd say you'd not have done your research. Dancer director and choreography

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=jS5fM6HVVVU
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=tdn_fCUBbgQ

http://m.dancerspro.com/uk/view.php?uid=595059

http://www.starnow.co.uk/Angelrina

And she was in the Porcelain Dolls burlesque troop.

The good burlesque girls in London maybe only model a few times a month but they are working almost every night and earn serious dollar. They may do select tf for publication, but can command decent modelling fees.

I'd say her experience would be a huge advantage to most serious photographers portfolios.

Of course I have no doubt some photographers have already sussed this....


Now who do you think has given the most relevant advice to Angela here? I know many of the top London burlesque girls,  used to live with one, have modelled with two of the best ones both of whom are classically trained, have two RADA trained cousins, so have   some clue of the demand for their modelling and certainly know several photographers who will be after shooting her. I have tried constantly t odrag the thread back to look at models who do classical dance and do burlesque IN London and have cited 25 with great credits.  We are lucky to have models like Angela here because trained dancers make great models. They know how to gesture emote and pose gracefully and  dynamically because that's what they do professionally. There is no better experience.

I am not surprised she's not revisited the thread after the grumpy welcome she was given and misinformation. But I note she's amassed 91 friends and a fast load of positive comments.

M A R L H A M wrote:
If what Eliza says is correct, and she makes it sound so convincing, why is it that so many UK models openly complain about the lack of paid work for non-nude modelling? Are they all just fibbing?

Success is generally dependent upon the one-in-a-7000 chance that you will be in the right place, at the right time, or dating/befriending exactly the right people, who will have exactly the right connections. Perhaps Eliza was in the right place (or the right social circle, most likely), at the right time, when these others were not.

Having spent the majority of my early- and mid-20s in an active arts and culture scene, that is what I saw. Getting attention, getting hosted at events, getting paid - had a lot to do with chance.

M A R L H A M wrote:
If what Eliza says is correct, and she makes it sound so convincing, why is it that so many UK models openly complain about the lack of paid work for non-nude modelling? Are they all just fibbing?

I don't know any who are. In what context?

As I day this is in the UK . We don't have problems so much with nude modelling and the UK sites are awash with models who do it for peanuts. But quality art nude models are harder to fond and worth paying a lot more of course as Hugh says.

The US is going to vary dramatically. We will travel to London, even though petrol and train fare arenas expensive as a flight in the USA. But in mid west towns Mike's from anywhere yes there's probably a shortage of any kind of modelling work.

M A R L H A M wrote:
If what Eliza says is correct, and she makes it sound so convincing, why is it that so many UK models openly complain about the lack of paid work for non-nude modelling? Are they all just fibbing?

Or, there's the remote possibility that Eliza isn't always correct.    Her experience is just that, and other models have very different experiences.

The OP left a long time, and the thread has devolved into Eliza going back and forth/arguing with a few other people......like soooooo many other threads.

Koryn wrote:
Success is generally dependent upon the one-in-a-7000 chance that you will be in the right place, at the right time, or dating/befriending exactly the right people, who will have exactly the right connections. Perhaps Eliza was in the right place (or the right social circle, most likely), at the right time, when these others were not.

Having spent the majority of my early- and mid-20s in an active arts and culture scene, that is what I saw. Getting attention, getting hosted at events, getting paid - had a lot to do with chance.

I was a life model. It can open doors. I had no other connections but I do socialise well and look the part. it's down to the model to graft and network in real life. There wad one life model who was an agency fashion.model. She didn't go to this one artists exhibition. I was the only model that did, I helped sell stuff, and also got a boutique job, a designer asked me to do some fit, and I got another four artists booking me. She was gutted and didn't miss the next ones!

But as I said , if models sit around waiting then they may moan. But you can see the castings, and if I can get them now and again certainly agency standard models and models like the Op can. USA it's not the same apparently.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Or, there's the remote possibility that Eliza isn't always correct.    Her experience is just that, and other models have very different experiences.

The OP left a long time, and the thread has devolved into Eliza going back and forth/arguing with a few other people......like soooooo many other threads.

You are not obliged to read.

But to me the purpose of debate is not to force ones opinion on another. It is for me if someone has a hypothesis, testing it to see if it can be falsified. It's nit about me being right; it's about producing evidence and,data to show a held belief cannot be supported.

I am far from always right. One thread after long debate I acknowledged defeat. It was,about female,soldiers on front lines and I produced evidence to show they could do it. It forced Al Lock and others I think to produce academic research to show the injuries suffered even carrying
weapons to prove me wrong. Which is cool I like changing my mind that's how one learns. On this case however, I have produced masses of evidence and rational argument to show some widely held beliefs to be questionable. Someone can prove otherwise I'm happy to hear. But personal attack is automatically fallacious.
On the nude modelling I'd love to have stripper rates a go go but clearly its not justified on.economic laws. So the reverse is true. And I have shown it: there are more paid castings in London for clothed modelling work.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You are not obliged to read.

But to me the purpose of debate is not to force ones opinion on another. It is for me if someone has a hypothesis, testing it to see if it can be falsified. It's nit about me being right; it's about producing evidence and,data to show a held belief cannot be supported.

I am far from always right. One thread after long debate I acknowledged defeat. It was,about female,soldiers on front lines and I produced evidence to show they could do it. It forced Al Lock and others I think to produce academic research to show the injuries suffered even carrying
weapons to prove me wrong. Which is cool I like changing my mind that's how one learns. On this case however, I have produced masses of evidence and rational argument to show some widely held beliefs to be questionable. Someone can prove otherwise I'm happy to hear. But personal attack is automatically fallacious.
On the nude modelling I'd love to have stripper rates a go go but clearly its not justified on.economic laws. So the reverse is true. And I have shown it: there are more paid castings in London for clothed modelling work.

Your'e not using your words correctly, Eliza.  There was no "personal attack," I stated a fact, that you can't really argue.  And there was nothing "fallacious."   LOL. 

Fact:  You end up debating/arguing in many threads long after the OP has left, as you are in this one. 

Fact:  You're not always right (which you admitted), and your experiences are just that. Yours. 

If you think either of the above is a personal attack, then you don't actually know what a personal attack is.  I think you do know what a real personal attack is, so there's no need for you to argue with absolutely every person in a thread that responds to one of your posts....yet you do anyway.  Oh well.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

.... On this case however, I have produced masses of evidence and rational argument to show some widely held beliefs to be questionable. Someone can prove otherwise I'm happy to hear.

.... And I have shown it: there are more paid castings in London for clothed modelling work.

Actually I think you're woefully misguided about the whole thing. The only way you can reasonably draw the conclusions you have is if what happens on MM is representative of what happens throughout the UK. But it's not - far from it. In the UK MM is akin to the mid west towns you referred to!

If you go to what's widely perceived to be the most popular UK modelling site and perform a similar search of castings there you'll see a completely different story being painted.

Bobby C wrote:

Actually Bobby, it's called data and evidence and your input is called sarcasm; known as the lowest form of humour.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
And there was nothing "fallacious."   LOL.

Your FACE is fallacious!

Yo!







Ash.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... odd.

A lot of photographers can't pay much or at all.   So sadly we miss out on great models like you.
Have a nice night or morning.

Hey, you don't even know what time it is in London, so everything you say is wrong.

M A R L H A M wrote:
Actually I think you're woefully misguided about the whole thing. The only way you can reasonably draw the conclusions you have is if what happens on MM is representative of what happens throughout the UK. But it's not - far from it. In the UK MM is akin to the mid west towns you referred to!

If you go to what's widely perceived to be the most popular UK modelling site and perform a
similar search of castings there you'll see a completely different story being painted.

I'd be the first to agree as Hugh and I have already stated. That's why we are both here. And models of the standard I have cited. Please go back and check. I also think it's why Angela has joined here.

As I said in this thread right now I have produced data of two dozen models I know or know of that don't do anything like what is on the UK modelling sites. I also happen to know some of  them make serious dollar. They may some do burlesque, some high art or fashion nude. But they aren't working for adult gwcs and if they do that they'd be finished. It's,relevant for the Up as she has a dance and burlesque background shes not a candidate for gwcs.


The flaw in your argument is suggesting that the UK sites are on a par with MM. They are not. No top burlesque stars; no Premier or Elite models; and no photographers that were,war photographers, National Geographical photographers or AP campaign photographers; no fashion houses no designers no Vogue muas. No top art nude models. To speak of. May be a few but it's not MM

Bobby C wrote:

Now that's just Guilt By Association.....

Ash Photographic wrote:

Your FACE is fallacious!

Yo!







Ash.

QFTM. .

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Your'e not using your words correctly, Eliza.  There was no "personal attack," I stated a fact, that you can't really argue.  And there was nothing "fallacious."   LOL. 

Fact:  You end up debating/arguing in many threads long after the OP has left, as you are in this one. 

Fact:  You're not always right (which you admitted), and your experiences are just that. Yours. 

If you think either of the above is a personal attack, then you don't actually know what a personal attack is.  I think you do know what a real personal attack is, so there's no need for you to argue with absolutely every person in a thread that responds to one of your posts....yet you do anyway.  Oh well.

You have not been able to counter my argument . Neither have you given anything relevant to the thread.

My personal experience counts for more here than anyone else thus far because I was a pro model in London. I haven't relied on it I've produced two dozen dancers on MM in London. AAngela will know some of them already. I've produced data showing the ratio of UK castings and pay. How is this not relevant or based just on my experience? You have attacked me rather than my argument; and produced nothing relevant.

Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

QFTM. .

SOHF?

Ash Photographic wrote:

Now that's just Guilt By Association.....

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
As I said in this thread right now I have produced data of two dozen models I know or know of that don't do anything like what is on the UK modelling sites. I also happen to know some of  them make serious dollar. They may some do burlesque, some high art or fashion nude. But they aren't working for adult gwcs and if they do that they'd be finished. It's,relevant for the Up as she has a dance and burlesque background shes not a candidate for gwcs.


The Clawson your argument is suggesting that the UK sites are on a par withvMM

You do realise that most of the models you linked in your earlier post haven't been active on MM for months, often years? What does that tell you?

In fact I recognised one of the models you linked as she's very popular on the UK centric sites where she has long lists of references. I bet she won't be impressed by the implied slight that she's only there to work with adult gwcs or to learn that her modelling career is 'finished'.

It's interesting that you regard MM as somehow better than other sites. I've worked with many models who do not share that view.

For the record I'm not a member of either of the principal UK sites. Most of my models are sourced via Facebook and occasionally here on MM.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

You have not been able to counter my argument . Neither have you given anything relevant to the thread.

My personal experience counts for more here than anyone else thus far because I was a pro model in London. I haven't relied on it I've produced two dozen dancers on MM in London. AAngela will know some of them already. I've produced data showing the ratio of UK castings and pay. How is this not relevant or based just on my experience? You have attacked me rather than my argument; and produced nothing relevant.

Eliza you missed her point.    Its great that you are or were a pro model and did FIT modeling, etc.   but your experiences don't reflect many other peoples.    MelissaAnn is a smart pro model.   Did you think to ask her  about her experiences?   No as usual you post old photos of yourself.   You tell us more about yourself.   Just now you've told us your experience counts for more.   This thread wasn't about you.   Once again you have made it personal.   The OP is in your country.   Reach out to her and help.   When people discuss their experiences in the US or other places don't dismiss them because theirs doesn't mirror yours.   Consider holding off on the half page long posts filled with images, diagrams, pie charts and links.   Its just not that serious.   

I'm a goof and I argue when I know its pointless.   That's a serious fault in myself and  I recognize it.   Several days ago members gave me some great advice in a thread I was battling with you in.   It wasn't a personal attack nor was Melissa's comment to you.   These forums are not really about facts as much as opinions because our lives, backgrounds and experiences all differ.   Where we live and who we know as well.   That isn't to say your information is wrong but its delivery leaves a lot too be desired.   I know you won't listen.   We are who we are.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
You have not been able to counter my argument . Neither have you given anything relevant to the thread.

My personal experience counts for more here than anyone else thus far because I was a pro model in London. I haven't relied on it I've produced two dozen dancers on MM in London. AAngela will know some of them already. I've produced data showing the ratio of UK castings and pay. How is this not relevant or based just on my experience? You have attacked me rather than my argument; and produced nothing relevant.

Wow. Someone's grown a little big for their britches!

I was answering the question of another poster Eliza.  If you don't feel that my comment was relevant, go ahead and file that away with all your other opinions.  The person I answered was asking a valid question, and I'm sorry you didn't like his question (or my answer) because it happened to contradict you/question what you were saying.  For every 2 dozen models you link, there's hundreds more just like them that are failing/not getting work.  Your links do nothing to prove the point you're trying to make.  If I posted 100 links to successful nude models in Seattle, that doesn't prove that most nude models in Seattle are successful.  Surely you can see that?

If you'd like to start another 5 page argument, go right on ahead since you seem to enjoy that so much, and apparently have the time for it. 

Several good points have been made in this thread.  Some by you, and many by others, who had every bit as much to add.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Wow. Someone's grown a little big for their britches!

That could never happen to a FIT model, surely?

(Whoops! There's me indulging in another of those fallacies again...)








Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Another Italian Guy wrote:

That could never happen to a FIT model, surely?

(Whoops! There's me indulging in another of those fallacies again...)








Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Got any of those pancakes left over? I think I could use a few .