Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
{snipped}

What I am saying is that if a model wants to do the job professionally she has to establish rates. She can always come down or work tf for the right job.

I agree.

There's a freelance calculator online where you input what you want or need to make in a year, how many days you want to work per week, and how many hours, your current expenses, not sure if it includes tax brackets and all that.

Basically you get a "per hour" worth, based on your current needs.

It's a good place to start, however realistic or unrealistic it may be in the beginning.

If a model is serious about making a living through modeling (no matter their skill level or experience), this is a good thing for them to do, rather than go with an arbitrary rate per hour.

Time will tell if rates need to come down, increase, or if a second source of income is necessary.

EDIT: One should also know what the fair market value is in their area and if there's enough demand.

a raw muse wrote:
Holy moly, there is no set "rate" that is universal.

Depending on project and medium, I can work for anywhere from $15-$200/hr. most of the work I do is art modeling, which is at a lower rate, but dependable and almost the same as having a day job provided I can fill my schedule correctly. A shoot can be anything from a fun shoot with a friend with no cash changing hands, or me giving a print/artwork I made or am in to a photographer (or trading), to getting hired. This works for me; other models who are primarily photo models (or hell, even other art models) don't operate the same way and only work for $x/hr, bottom line, period.

Everyone finds what works for them.

Of course. I've already said the life modelling pays lower but longer hours.
So it's accepted to change rates according to the job. Photographers font generally provide regular work or long hours so normal it should be higher.

But you have to set what rates are both competitive and reasonable enough to sustain if a model wants to do this professionally in London. You can always cone down for the right job. But you have to set a rate. That can vary from model to model and from one type of modelling to another.

CHAD ALAN wrote:
I agree.

There's a freelance calculator online where you input what you want or need to make in a year, how many days you want to work per week, and how many hours, your current expenses, not sure if it includes tax brackets and all that.

Basically you get a "per hour" worth, based on your current needs.

It's a good place to start, however realistic or unrealistic it may be in the beginning.

If a model is serious about making a living through modeling (no matter their skill level or experience), this is a good thing for them to do, rather than go with an arbitrary rate per hour.

Time will tell if rates need to come down, increase, or if a second source of income is necessary.

EDIT: One should also know what the fair market value is in their area and if there's enough demand.

That's correct.

So it's fair to make the op aware of that latter point for example. And of the castings (most of which ARE clothed) and the reasons why photographic modelling pays better than say life modelling or promo (short hours irregular = higher hourly rate in mist jobs,eg supply teaching, tempting etc).

It's also fair to point out how other dancer-models do it in London, what third party credits they have, talent agencies etc.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza you do realize that photographers are contacting models they like directly and offering them work.   That's why you see lots of nudes in UK shooters books when they never do castings.   One I know shoots a lot of women and pays yet never has done a call that I've seen.   However it doesn't matter because once you've decided something that's it.   If you think there is more clothed fashion work on a site filled with men who shoot nudes and want too then so be it.   That doesn't make you right and others wrong and I have no desire to run around to try and prove anything.

Yes I've seen all the whiny butt hurt threads when the models don't respond, indignation and failure to understand why they arent jumping at $20 an hour etc etc too. And the demeaning of them for.doing promo etc., being unprofessional etc.

Seems to be no shortage of models looking at the castings I have shown you though. Some impressive models leaving tags to boot too.

No shortage of answers from models to me either when I approach models to work when requested from designers to get a specific one either. Because there's fair pay on the table and tears in the offing. And as it happens the last twice burlesque performing models were requested by a magazine editor and a designer. That's because they look the part style wise and make good hook copy for male and female readers, and designers want them representing them at events etc. This is also useful for the Op to know. She will have to cultivate it and it takes time and effort. But so does all modelling.

M A R L H A M wrote:
You'll have to delete me first LOL

Ah yes Mark.

Then you also know what I am saying is true.

Do you want me to delete you? It's up to you.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Yes I've seen all the whiny butt hurt threads when the models don't respond, indignation and failure to understand why they arent jumping at $20 an hour etc etc too. And the demeaning of them for.doing promo etc., being unprofessional etc.

Seems to be no shortage of models looking at the castings I have shown you though. Some impressive models leaving tags to boot too.

No shortage of answers from models to me either when I approach models to work when requested from designers to get a specific one either. Because there's fair pay on the table and tears in the offing. And as it happens the last twice burlesque performing models were requested by a magazine editor and a designer. That's because they look the part style wise and make good hook copy for male and female readers, and designers want them representing them at events etc. This is also useful for the Op to know. She will have to cultivate it and it takes time and effort. But so does all modelling.

I can't speak for the UK but here in the states many models struggle to make anything and on sites like these its nudity that pays.   The US is much larger then the UK.   There are towns and cities where this very little work.   If someone offers you money to work and you aren't working then either accept it or ask for more but at the end of the day.   If you need money.   Then go to work.   Many schools pay less then $25.00 an hour for life style models for example and you only work a few hours.   Since you like links:   http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Nude-Art-Model    People just don't have a lot to pay models when they can't recoup their cash.

That's why many runway shows pay nothing.  Here's a challenge for you.   How many full time MM non nude models are here?   I mean models who support themselves totally with modelling and who don't do nudes.   Since you know a lot of models that should be easy.   I don't mean you pick random UK or USA models you don't know.    They can't do nudes and have to support themselves totally with fashion or commercial work.   I know there are a lot of nude models who support themselves just with paid shoots but I don't know any fashion and commercial models who do.  Since you have no shortage of models responding to you this should be a cake walk.   


I finally saw a paid non nude offer on the main page.   Its paying $30.00.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza you do realize that photographers are contacting models they like directly and offering them work.   That's why you see lots of nudes in UK shooters books when they never do castings.   One I know shoots a lot of women and pays yet never has done a call that I've seen.

I'm going to have to agree with Tony on this and it's a very relevant point.

The general dynamic for nude work on sites like this (including the popular UK sites) is that models post castings (called Avaliability Notices here) advertising where they will be and what they're charging, and photographers respond directly. Either that, or models message photographers directly to solicit for work.

For example, I just checked the castings posted yesterday and today on Purpleport (the most active UK site for models) and found:-

- 20 photographers offering to pay
- 79 models asking to be paid

Of these, only 3 of the photographers' castings were clearly non-nude; most were looking for at least topless. The vast majority of the models advertising for work also had nudes in their portfolio so one would assume they would be happy to shoot to that level if being paid.

Add to that, none of the photographers I've met personally via tuitions or workshops etc. who pay models for nudes ever post castings. They always wait for girls to advertise availability, special offers, tours, studio-days etc., and then respond to that, or they message the models directly with an offer.

So no, you won't see many photographers casting for nude models on any of the sites (there are a few, of course). But that doesn't mean that the work isn't there, merely that it's advertised differently.

Therefore, I would suggest that citing MM paid castings as evidence that the majority of paid work is non-nude is fallacious!


ETA: I just checked the active paid availability notices posted by models for a radius of 100 miles around London:-

Nudes=No: 38    (547 including expired)
Nudes=Yes: 70  (1235 including expired)



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Angela Hamilton wrote:

As I stated above, I am not particularly interested in nude modelling. But I am comfortable doing it so if a photographer approaches me wanting to do a shoot and offering a fair fee for my time and service, and of course only if I think their work is quality, I will do it. But I really don't care to do nudes much for my own creative expression  as it just doesn't appeal to me that much. So I don't see the point in doing tf nude shoots right now if I don't even care to go in that direction.
And actually I honest am finding it hard to understand this idea of nudes being no different to any other type of modelling. It is! Your friggen naked! In the theatre industry there is a law that if you are required to perform any nudity in a theatre show, you are to be paid a higher fee.

In my opinion your position is quite reasonable

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
So few words in fact you have nit even attempted to answer the ops question.

Why not actually have a go?

It was the perfect answer to the point rather than spouting pages of letters arranged into some alphabetical diarrhoea that have no relevance to the forum.


Simple terms so you can understand ' just because someone's a pastry chef doesn't mean they can make soups '.
Or because someone's a fit model doesn't mean they can pose for an editorial. There maybe exceptions.... maybe.

Even simpler so you'd understand ' that guy is a good dry stone builder but does he have the experience to lay down a course of bricks ' ?

Angela Hamilton wrote:
I am a professional dancer (contemporary/ballet) and a model. I get paid modelling work and still do TFP, but will only ever do paid nude shoots. Have only recently moved to London and recently joined MM and have been approached by many photographers asking me for my rate. I have no idea what to say!
For a nude shoot?
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)?
For a nude+dance shoot?
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc)/
What are everyone's thoughts on a fair rate for these kinds of shoots?

For a nude shoot? £40/hour - £130 1/2 day - £240 full day
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)? £40/hour  £130 1/2 day £240  full day
For a nude+dance shoot? £40/hour  £130 1/2 day £240  full day
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc) £15/hour up to £1,000 / full day depending on usage

Lohkee wrote:

I would think that a researcher of such high caliber as yourself would, well, do some research.

Google:   facebook models females

About 7,530,000 results ...

The Something Guy wrote:
It was the perfect answer to the point rather than spouting pages of letters arranged into some alphabetical diarrhoea that have no relevance to the forum.


Simple terms so you can understand ' just because someone's a pastry chef doesn't mean they can make soups '.
Or because someone's a fit model doesn't mean they can pose for an editorial. There maybe exceptions.... maybe.

Even simpler so you'd understand ' that guy is a good dry stone builder but does he have the experience to lay down a course of bricks ' ?

Once again you resort to ad hominem. That really all you have Chris because you never produce any evidence to attack the argument so you turn on the person. Its ad hominem and its always fallacious.

I have answered the ops question you have not.

Fit modelling has nothing to do with this. This is about dance- model transferable skills. There is always demand for dance related images, obviously dancers are trained on using body to gesture and emote etc. So it DOES mean dancers can generally model. And many dancerde are here on MM on London making part of their living modelling and I have cited them.

As for fit models as you brought it up I am.obliged to confront your vlaim once again I will let other people judge if I'm an outlher or not

on Google with Model Mayhem once again in case you missed it, the first fit models that come up:

https://modelmayhem.com/764632
https://modelmayhem.com/737802
https://modelmayhem.com/263542
https://modelmayhem.com/285745
https://modelmayhem.com/1785235
https://modelmayhem.com/757313
https://modelmayhem.com/1163423
https://modelmayhem.com/255649
https://modelmayhem.com/782373
https://modelmayhem.com/870974
https://modelmayhem.com/708449
https://modelmayhem.com/2199710

ALL these models ARE or have been fitting models. Now they may not be suitable for Vogue but fir average editorial or campaigns it obvious they are perfectly qualified and there arent many photographers on MM who can turn their noses up at them; and what is more only a select few here are going to get them and certainly not "forty quid take it or leave it love"  attitudes. It's farcical to suggest fit models aren't good enough for the majority of editorials produced by photographers here.





YMI and KIAs fit model

Stealla McCartney, Vivienne Westwood, Elle McPherson fit and showroom model
anf CK campaign model.

Same with Magda, Jitrois fit model with more fashion credits inc campaign and many more fashion magazines than 99.9999% of photographers here will ever achieve:


Then you have Kasia who has been in more magazine editorials (including Vogue and Elle) than you will have hot dinners and is fit model for Jonathan Saunders.
https://m.modelmayhem.com/1006931
And has also worked for AP



So you see Chris, it takes a long post to demonstrate that someone's beliefs are not supported by the evidence.

Hugh Alison wrote:

For a nude shoot? £40/hour - £130 1/2 day - £240 full day
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)? £40/hour  £130 1/2 day £240  full day
For a nude+dance shoot? £40/hour  £130 1/2 day £240  full day
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc) £15/hour up to £1,000 / full day depending on usage

Perfectly reasonable.

Another Italian Guy wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with Tony on this and it's a very relevant point.

The general dynamic for nude work on sites like this (including the popular UK sites) is that models post castings (called Avaliability Notices here) advertising where they will be and what they're charging, and photographers respond directly. Either that, or models message photographers directly to solicit for work.

For example, I just checked the castings posted yesterday and today on Purpleport (the most active UK site for models) and found:-

- 20 photographers offering to pay
- 79 models asking to be paid

Of these, only 3 of the photographers' castings were clearly non-nude; most were looking for at least topless. The vast majority of the models advertising for work also had nudes in their portfolio so one would assume they would be happy to shoot to that level if being paid.

Add to that, none of the photographers I've met personally via tuitions or workshops etc. who pay models for nudes ever post castings. They always wait for girls to advertise availability, special offers, tours, studio-days etc., and then respond to that, or they message the models directly with an offer.

So no, you won't see many photographers casting for nude models on any of the sites (there are a few, of course). But that doesn't mean that the work isn't there, merely that it's advertised differently.

Therefore, I would suggest that citing MM paid castings as evidence that the majority of paid work is non-nude is fallacious!


ETA: I just checked the active paid availability notices posted by models for a radius of 100 miles around London:-

Nudes=No: 38    (547 including expired)
Nudes=Yes: 70  (1235 including expired)



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Ok at least that's a good try.

However.
We are not discussing demand for nude models on the UK sites. There is limited paid work of any kind in there. I'm on them; but don't look at emails because they are all tf or low pay with amateur t&a photographers.

MM us completely different and you know it and I have proved it.

The Op asking the question on the UK sites ....well I'd tell her the same; you agent going to get much paid work of any kind there and what there is is likely to be gwcs paying stripper rates.

But suggesting the industry is reflected by those sites is absurd. You know it full well. That is why MM is considered the more professional site across the industry in the UK.

All you have done is show that demand for nudes is higher on those sites.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can't speak for the UK but here in the states many models struggle to make anything and on sites like these its nudity that pays.   The US is much larger then the UK.   There are towns and cities where this very little work.   If someone offers you money to work and you aren't working then either accept it or ask for more but at the end of the day.   If you need money.   Then go to work.   Many schools pay less then $25.00 an hour for life style models for example and you only work a few hours.   Since you like links:   http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Nude-Art-Model    People just don't have a lot to pay models when they can't recoup their cash.

That's why many runway shows pay nothing.  Here's a challenge for you.   How many full time MM non nude models are here?   I mean models who support themselves totally with modelling and who don't do nudes.   Since you know a lot of models that should be easy.   I don't mean you pick random UK or USA models you don't know.    They can't do nudes and have to support themselves totally with fashion or commercial work.   I know there are a lot of nude models who support themselves just with paid shoots but I don't know any fashion and commercial models who do.  Since you have no shortage of models responding to you this should be a cake walk.   


I finally saw a paid non nude offer on the main page.   Its paying $30.00.

It doesn't work that way Tony. If you have an assertion you need to provide evidence to support it. I just have to provide evidence enough to prove you incorrect.

I have cited the last two days of London castings already and paid non nude vastly outnumber the nude. I also cited paid castings for Illinois though you weren't paying attention and showed the same.

But lets look again today

Illinois 25 - 4 clothed over nude. One of which incidentally is yours $50

http://tinyurl.com/lrjsdsq


Now if you get some takers all well and good. But a pro model who applies, what happens if she gets offered 4 days promo at $15 an hour for eight hours a day? And she's committed to your shoot? Ideally she will,see that the value of your images in addition are worth that right? But a pro model cannot sustain herself indefinitely on what you are offering and turn down day promo all the time. So while she may do it for you, she isn't wise to do it with all who ask is she?


And as for life modelling you model for long hours and,regular. It's nit a photoshoot to do a,sculpture for example takes days or weeks

And you did see the responses from models when a grand is on the table from DC Sculptor did you not? I and others were quite happy to jump on a plane for that.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Once again you resort to ad hominem. That really all you have Chris because you never produce any evidence to attack the argument so you turn on the person. Its ad hominem and its always fallacious.

I have answered the ops question you have not.

Fit modelling has nothing to do with this. This is about dance- model transferable skills. There is always demand for dance related images, obviously dancers are trained on using body to gesture and emote etc. So it DOES mean dancers can generally model. And many dancerde are here on MM on London making part of their living modelling and I have cited them.

As for fit models as you brought it up I am.obliged to confront your vlaim once again I will let other people judge if I'm an outlher or not
.

I thought I'd bring in fit model as an example as it seems to be your favorite subject and every forum you post on steers in that direction in mentioning it.


NB page 1.
4. Fit modelling. This is one of the highest paid jobs in modelling. It can pay anything from £15 an hour to £250 an hour....blah blah blah.


As for my answer to the op being 'depends on experience' and the best way to judge that is by their bio and portfolio.... if I see a bio about being a fit model then I walk away. Not much good for nude especially if the images in the portfolio don't show it.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
We are not discussing demand for nude models on the UK sites.

Are we not?

I think the OP was asking exactly that...

Angela Hamilton wrote:
Recently moved to London and recently joined MM and have been approached by many photographers asking me for my rate. I have no idea what to say!
For a nude shoot?
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)?
For a nude+dance shoot?
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc)/
What are everyone's thoughts on a fair rate for these kinds of shoots?

Over to you



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.


ps. and by the way, you might want to use Tinyurl to shorten that humungous link of yours which is screwing up the page formatting. I took the trouble to do it for mine, and here's one I just did for your link too - although I'm not sure what it proves as you're looking at castings in the USA!

Hyer Bon wrote:
When fit models do fashion then they can safely sleep the sleep of angels. They would have achieved their goal as models

But if you are going to be a fit model only, then you will have to do whatever comes your way. For the right price.

What we need to do in this debate is to know what the OP wants to do and help her achieve her goals. Instead, there is a lot of very bad deductions being made on the half-assed hope that people will be gullible enough to dream small dreams.

Do not ever settle for the second best.

?

I started as a life model that was all I set out to do.I think that doing runway as a fit model for a major fashion house with Premier models who've been on the covers of Elle multiple times was my ultimate achievement not doing magazine work for photographers on here. No disrespect but that's not a dream to me. My only aim was to support myself and get enough money together to start a PhD. Which I did.

I think the Op is likely thinking, with clear justification,  she may make some money too I doubt she's dreaming of being in Vogue .

Another Italian Guy wrote:

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
We are not discussing demand for nude models on the UK sites.

Are we not?

I think the OP was asing exactly that...


Over to you



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.


ps. and by the way, you might want to use Tinyurl to shorten that humungous link of yours which is screwing up the page formatting. I took the trouble to do it for mine, and here's one I just did for your link too - although I'm not sure what it proves as you're looking at castings in the USA!

The latter was to show the situation is the same in the USA as he was claiming it different.

The first point: did you not READ the bit where's,she,said she'd been approached having joined MM ???????

If she asked what she could,expect on thexUK sites my answer would have been as yours.

But you don't go into Waitrose and ask if they have any teaching jobs, or into the job centre and ask if they have any jobs as a scientist.

But I have shown there to be plenty of clothed work here. That dissent mean either that sure there ate photographers who approach models,as they do on the UK sites. You have,seen the threads from butthurt photographers,when they don't reply yes?


I have,also pointed out that models,yes their ports here as you use websites to promote yourself
on the real world. As I said how,do you think we get the fit and promo and boutique work?

Another Italian Guy wrote:
none of the photographers I've met personally via tuitions or workshops etc. who pay models for nudes ever post castings. They always wait for girls to advertise availability, special offers, tours, studio-days etc., and then respond to that, or they message the models directly with an offer...

Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

I posted a casting for paid nude work once.
Never again.

That's how I know about obese 50 year olds offering "fun shoots" for £100 per hour - cost of baked beans and custard included.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
The first point: did you not READ the bit where's,she,said she'd been approached having joined MM ???????

Yes.

I'll quote it again:-

Angela Hamilton wrote:
I am a professional dancer (contemporary/ballet) and a model. I get paid modelling work and still do TFP, but will only ever do paid nude shoots. Have only recently moved to London and recently joined MM and have been approached by many photographers asking me for my rate. I have no idea what to say!
For a nude shoot?
For a dance shoot (specialist skill)?
For a nude+dance shoot?
For a clothes (fashion,beauty,commercial etc)/
What are everyone's thoughts on a fair rate for these kinds of shoots?

I'm not sure how it could be any clearer. The OP is asking what is a fair rate for clothed, nude and nude+dance shoots to give to the photographers by whom she has been approached on MM.

So why are we you still arguing about other types of modelling and talking about finding work outside of MM? That's not what the OP is asking, although it does seem to always be what you want to talk about!



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Hugh Alison wrote:
That's how I know about obese 50 year olds offering "fun shoots" for £100 per hour - cost of baked beans and custard included.

Sounds great. Off to post a casting right now!!

Payment in pancakes, of course!






Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

The Something Guy wrote:
It was the perfect answer to the point rather than spouting pages of letters arranged into some alphabetical diarrhoea that have no relevance to the forum.

Another Italian Guy wrote:

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
The first point: did you not READ the bit where's,she,said she'd been approached having joined MM ???????

Yes.

I'll quote it again:-


I'm not sure how it could be any clearer. The OP is asking what is a fair rate for clothed, nude and nude+dance shoots to give to the photographers by whom she has been approached on MM.

So why are we you still arguing about other types of modelling and talking about finding work outside of MM? That's not what the OP is asking, although it does seem to always be what you want to talk about!



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Models host ports and apply for castings of their choice here and off site. That is the principle aim. Photographers approaching us with interesting and or,decent paid work we can be and are selective about. It is perfectly valid to point out that there are plenty of possible avenues for paid work. Of course she is free to go to UK sites,too but I wouldn't recommend it....and neither would you or Hugh. The reason those other genres,ate important - and frequently in paid castings here yo as I have shown - is because photographers are not the only model employers and the reasons WHY a pro model has to charge more for short hours non regular work. Just like supply teachers and temps.

The Something Guy wrote:
I thought I'd bring in fit model as an example as it seems to be your favorite subject and every forum you post on steers in that direction in mentioning it.


NB page 1.
4. Fit modelling. This is one of the highest paid jobs in modelling. It can pay anything from £15 an hour to £250 an hour....blah blah blah.


As for my answer to the op being 'depends on experience' and the best way to judge that is by their bio and portfolio.... if I see a bio about being a fit model then I walk away. Not much good for nude especially if the images in the portfolio don't show it.

As it's the best paid modelling open to models it's perfectly valid to point out. As promo and fit are too in terms if regular work. I have HAD to prove time and time again that you are in the same market as,these genres but unlike them do not provide regular or long hours,work. As O have also shown most models ARE in the market for them - even that Italian guys models do them- then it's lunacy for pro models to risk availability to them to take short hours low pay photographer jobs. As I said, that's why temps and supply teachers get mire money as it compensates for lack if regularity. Thats why these things are relevant.


As for experience yes of course. But there are things called 'transferable skills' on the job market. Dance is one if them that is,clearly related to acting and modelling. And I've cited many burlesque dancers in London who get good money modelling to prove my point

IMnPhoto wrote:
The worst thing about developing a reputation for irrelevancy and wordiness, is truly legitimate information is ignored.

The OP is clearly interested in pursuing nude modeling for financial reasons.

Regardless of whether she can demand a higher rate for other types of modeling, the usefulness of these threads is diminished by engaging in today irrrelevant conversations.

Yes I've tried that on my plumber too but he keeps trying to explain at great length how he justifies his rates and other work he has on etc. I go blah blah blah I'm not listening too.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Models host ports and apply for castings of their choice here and off site. That is the principle aim.

For you and some of your friends, maybe.

But the OP hasn't mentioned it and from her post that doesn't seem to be what she's asking, so why do you keep banging on about it?



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
For the Op.

I was a professional model in London for several years, so my input may be useful.

Traditionally, photographic modelling pays a high hourly rate. This is because it's irregular one off jobs and often few hours. Do tf with photographers who will benefit your port by all means; but don't swallow the yarn that £20 an hour for two hours is a decent offer because it's not; and every photographer outside the internet knows it and offers appropriate pay.

In London even the journeyman agencies charge around £50 an hour minimum; and generally insists on a minimum of two hours plus VAT and expenses.

So that's the landmark. Charge more than that as a freelance model and it's going to be harder to get.
However, the problem is that if a model is going to book a one hour session, then that commitment can cost her dearly as her book fills up.
Most professional freelance models in London will find themselves getting regular work from one of the following. If they do they will find making a living as a model much easier and sustainable:

1.Life modelling. Art institutions will pay between £15 and £25 an hour. As will Art classes, and individual artists. That may not sound enticing, bit when they may book you regularly, it is. So an Art college can book you for 8 hours for two days a week for a term. So even if that's only say £12 an hour, the lowest I did and only for colleges offering that kind of long hours regular work, that is £96 a day. For two days for ten weeks, that is £1920. Not an inconsiderable amount of money. Tax and NI paid for you too.
So what happens if you take a £50 photographer job, say in two weeks time Tuesday. Then the Art college rings up offering you such a gig?

2. Promotional modelling. Again this can pay well with long hours and regular work. In London you have many exhibition and trade fair venues. If you are educated and articulate, and have skills like dance to boot I'd recommend signing up with a promo and talent agency. Work can vary from entertainment at corporate or sports events (stilt walkers, dancers and burlesque girls on particular demand) and things like hostessing, brand ambassadors and grid girls can pay really well - typically around £200 a day ) This can also get you into a third avenue:

3. Film and tv extra work. A lot of my fellow London models did this; particularly dancers. The burlesque girls in particular I know have an impressive list of movie and TVs credits. Again even basic extra work can pay around £200 a day and you can be on set for two weeks.

4. Fit modelling. This is one of the highest paid jobs in modelling. It can pay anything from £15 an hour to £250 an hour. It can open the door to showroom and runway, and catalogue and parts shoots. Hours can be irregular or regular, and can be working for bridal designers, fashion students,  or fashion houses. You have to be exactly right proportion wise ti what the jobs advertise and have I'd say to find fashion design engrossing to enjoy it.  Again if you are taken on the books by a fashion house the work can be short notice but regular and it's work you have to prioritize. If you are unavailable due to having committed to a photographer, then you can lose out big time. They wont keep asking you.

5. Performing. You know this already I suspect. A part in a London show, or a regular dance gig like a burlesque slot can be worth a great deal of money.


So if a freelance model becomes involved with any of these she is going to have to juggle. Flaking on photographers is really frowned upon so you can't just ditch a photographer if one if these lucrative gigs comes up.
But because they are not offering you long term work or long hours, they are used to paying higher hourly rates or whole day/ job rates. Ad agencies and third parties, employing photographers for the job will also know this and seldom quibble. It's what they'd have to pay an agency model at least so don't question it in London they know models have a living to.make.

You therefore have to make it worth your while. So fifty quid simply isn't. What a model needs to be able to do is get a fair days pay regardless of hours. So therefore typically freelance models will have a high hourly rate (often more than agencies) because it's no use to us. But where we can be an attractive proposition is we can offer massively discounted day rates. So my rate for example was £80 an hour or £175 a day. I simply didn't want a one hour job. But the £175 was,at least some recompense if I lost a day or toes fit or life modelling through it. To lose it for a paltry £80 was gutting.

Every life model and fit model I worked with did photographic modelling too and had similar system. We'd also cover for each other. So if an art institution or fashion house wanted me I'd ensure I had a body double to offer them, or offer the photographer a reliable model with plenty of notice.


So my suggestion would be a similar proving structure and having a look at those other regular model employers especially as you are a dancer.

Nudity should be irrelevant to your price structure; but it is perfectly acceptable to not take nude work tf if you don't need it for your port.

Welcome to MM Angela. One thing that is clear from a look at your port is that unlike many new models you have a skills set as a classical dancer that enables you to use dynamism in pose, understand gesture, form and space, emote  etc which enables you to perform immediately what models ultimately get paid for: to model. I would however adjust your stats as these are most important for any clothed modelling.

natural beauties of qld wrote:
I think that that is the most informative post that I have seen on MM this month.

Quoted for IMn

Another Italian Guy wrote:
For you and some of your friends, maybe.

But the OP hasn't mentioned it and from her post that doesn't seem to be what she's asking, so why do you keep banging on about it?



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Because she should be aware of what to consider when setting her rates dontcha think?

And my friends who I have cited  are also burlesque dancers, as is the Op, and I know thats how they do it too.

See above for a refresher.

You can see she's a dancer, you can see she is above modelling for gwcs on UK sites doing readers wives (not that us all like that but theres more of it and less clothed work) so why do you keep banging on about that?


What is fair to say, is if a model wants to charge stripper rates then the UK sites are where to go but I dont think shes after that.

New UK castings today paid btw 13 clothed 4 nude.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
For the Op.

I was a professional model in London for several years, so my input may be useful.

Traditionally, photographic modelling pays a high hourly rate. This is because it's irregular one off jobs and often few hours. Do tf with photographers who will benefit your port by all means; but don't swallow the yarn that £20 an hour for two hours is a decent offer because it's not; and every photographer outside the internet knows it and offers appropriate pay.

In London even the journeyman agencies charge around £50 an hour minimum; and generally insists on a minimum of two hours plus VAT and expenses.

So that's the landmark. Charge more than that as a freelance model and it's going to be harder to get.
However, the problem is that if a model is going to book a one hour session, then that commitment can cost her dearly as her book fills up.
Most professional freelance models in London will find themselves getting regular work from one of the following. If they do they will find making a living as a model much easier and sustainable:

1.Life modelling. Art institutions will pay between £15 and £25 an hour. As will Art classes, and individual artists. That may not sound enticing, bit when they may book you regularly, it is. So an Art college can book you for 8 hours for two days a week for a term. So even if that's only say £12 an hour, the lowest I did and only for colleges offering that kind of long hours regular work, that is £96 a day. For two days for ten weeks, that is £1920. Not an inconsiderable amount of money. Tax and NI paid for you too.
So what happens if you take a £50 photographer job, say in two weeks time Tuesday. Then the Art college rings up offering you such a gig?

2. Promotional modelling. Again this can pay well with long hours and regular work. In London you have many exhibition and trade fair venues. If you are educated and articulate, and have skills like dance to boot I'd recommend signing up with a promo and talent agency. Work can vary from entertainment at corporate or sports events (stilt walkers, dancers and burlesque girls on particular demand) and things like hostessing, brand ambassadors and grid girls can pay really well - typically around £200 a day ) This can also get you into a third avenue:

3. Film and tv extra work. A lot of my fellow London models did this; particularly dancers. The burlesque girls in particular I know have an impressive list of movie and TVs credits. Again even basic extra work can pay around £200 a day and you can be on set for two weeks.

4. Fit modelling. This is one of the highest paid jobs in modelling. It can pay anything from £15 an hour to £250 an hour. It can open the door to showroom and runway, and catalogue and parts shoots. Hours can be irregular or regular, and can be working for bridal designers, fashion students,  or fashion houses. You have to be exactly right proportion wise ti what the jobs advertise and have I'd say to find fashion design engrossing to enjoy it.  Again if you are taken on the books by a fashion house the work can be short notice but regular and it's work you have to prioritize. If you are unavailable due to having committed to a photographer, then you can lose out big time. They wont keep asking you.

5. Performing. You know this already I suspect. A part in a London show, or a regular dance gig like a burlesque slot can be worth a great deal of money.


So if a freelance model becomes involved with any of these she is going to have to juggle. Flaking on photographers is really frowned upon so you can't just ditch a photographer if one if these lucrative gigs comes up.
But because they are not offering you long term work or long hours, they are used to paying higher hourly rates or whole day/ job rates. Ad agencies and third parties, employing photographers for the job will also know this and seldom quibble. It's what they'd have to pay an agency model at least so don't question it in London they know models have a living to.make.

You therefore have to make it worth your while. So fifty quid simply isn't. What a model needs to be able to do is get a fair days pay regardless of hours. So therefore typically freelance models will have a high hourly rate (often more than agencies) because it's no use to us. But where we can be an attractive proposition is we can offer massively discounted day rates. So my rate for example was £80 an hour or £175 a day. I simply didn't want a one hour job. But the £175 was,at least some recompense if I lost a day or toes fit or life modelling through it. To lose it for a paltry £80 was gutting.

Every life model and fit model I worked with did photographic modelling too and had similar system. We'd also cover for each other. So if an art institution or fashion house wanted me I'd ensure I had a body double to offer them, or offer the photographer a reliable model with plenty of notice.


So my suggestion would be a similar proving structure and having a look at those other regular model employers especially as you are a dancer.

Nudity should be irrelevant to your price structure; but it is perfectly acceptable to not take nude work tf if you don't need it for your port. (In the world of MM, Nudity is very relevant, besides you are making assumptions about her reasons for not accepting "tf" offers.)

Welcome to MM Angela. One thing that is clear from a look at your port is that unlike many new models you have a skills set as a classical dancer that enables you to use dynamism in pose, understand gesture, form and space, emote  etc which enables you to perform immediately what models ultimately get paid for: to model. I would however adjust your stats as these are most important for any clothed modelling.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Quoted for IMn

Edited for the OP.

The skill set is useful for marketing herself (as a nude model).

Regardless of what she can get outside of Model Mayhem or the Internet.
Online Modeling is what it is, and the Model Mayhem market is a totally different animal.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
What is fair to say, is if a model wants to charge stripper rates then the UK sites are where to go but I dont think shes after that.

Nobody is recommending that she should charge stripper rates!

Quite the opposite in fact.

And while we're talking about additional income streams, how much do you charge for beating dead horses off of MM?



Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

IMnPhoto wrote:

Redacted for the OP.

The skill set is useful for marketing herself (as a nude model).
Regardless of what she can get outside of Model Mayhem or the Internet.
Online Modeling is what it is, and the Model Mayhem market is a totally different animal.

If you want to be a professional model, online modelling us only a small part if it.

You host your port inline, apply for castings here, and use your port to apply for castings elsewhere.
That is exactly what many models do, they ignore the stuff they don't want, and I cite as proof of that the masses of whining threads from butt hurt photographers who dont get responded to.

You can cross out my words but they are good advice to any model, and photographers that bear it in.mind will enjoy better understanding of their quarry.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
If you want to be a professional model, online modelling us only a small part if it.

You host your port inline, apply for castings here, and use your port to apply for castings elsewhere.
That is exactly what many models do, they ignore the stuff they don't want, and I cite as proof of that the masses of whining threads from butt hurt photographers who dont get responded to.

You can cross out my words but they are good advice to any model, and photographers that bear it in.mind will enjoy better understanding of their quarry.

Ok. I got sucked into the vortex...
You totally missed the point I was trying to make, and as usual you go full steam ahead with an irrelevancy.

I cropped your post, because there is information that people miss. Most people won't read that far.

If you want to help the OP and others, then make sure your posts are concise and relevant. You have a wealth of information you wish to share, but you ALWAYS want to share EVERYTHING.

Those that disagree with you already know where you stand.
Those that are ignorant of the information you share might have a valid reason:

They just don't care! And neither might the OP...
I know it sounds harsh, but this seems to be something that you ignore.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
As it's the best paid modelling open to models it's perfectly valid to point out.

I wonder why Kate Moss and other models of similar standing haven't figured this out instead their doing low paid editorials and ads. The best kept secret till now Eliza has given away the secret to making shed loads of money.