Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can't speak for Star but if I were her I wouldn't comment again either.   Why?   She's published.   She's doing covers.   She's not a hobbyist.   A few members have given their personal stories about how they have made it or others they know have.   That's great but she's correct in her breakdown for fashion agency models.   If you work as a MUA with less experience then wonderful but it takes many people years to get consistent paid work.   If you've found work and are under 5'8" count yourself lucky.   Photographers can help themselves by learning to build basic sets and taking classes.   

How many members who have critiqued her have ever shot a cover much less for a well known publication.   How many besides two members in this thread even work with agency models?   I'm not saying we should bow down to Star or any other member but do we have to always eat our own.   Do we have too do that?   Especially one who in my mind has actually made a pretty innocuous  point and one that is frankly not controversial.

I have.

The point is she made some valid points but also filled her post with bullshit.

The part about muas is just WRONG
The part about retouchers is just WRONG
And the whole post is about just giving up trying, horrible advice!

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

I have.

The point is she made some valid points but also filled her post with bullshit.

The part about muas is just WRONG
The part about retouchers is just WRONG
And the whole post is about just giving up trying, horrible advice!

I don't think she said to give up trying.   Her advice is find what the requirements are.   Fashion modeling is more strict then commercial but their are standards and people looking to become signed or work as pros need to know what they are.   Its been said it takes around ten years to master skills.   Some take a shorter time others won't.   Their are MUA who make nothing after years of trying and others who do well very quickly.   Same for retouchers and photographers.   Being a pro shooter requires a through understanding of light.   Its not about having the ability to pose some have naked women in her kit or nude spread over some tree branches.   Some shooters have a natural talent for working with studio and natural light.   Others do not and must work much harder to achieve those skills.

Where in what she said is their give up?   ..." Mainly I am saying if you feel like you can't make it in this business- why not do this for fun, if money comes then great. Imagine you want to be a painter, sure you can do some local fairs but mainly you are spending a lot of time and effort to create something you like for yourself and screw everyone else."    I don't see give up.   Star is among a small number of actual pros who do post here.   We don't have to agree with her but we shouldn't put words in her mouth or make claims of things she said that she didn't.   She doesn't need me to defend her though but again , must we eat our own.   Saying that a members post is bullshit when that member is a actual working professional with multiple tears strikes me as insulting and misses the point altogether.   Her advice is based on her experiences  as a working pro.   I seem to recall she even modeled for a while.   She also retouches her work.

But by all means continue with the bashing.   Its always the 'in' thing to do on MM.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I don't see why any of you, especially the OP if she's so busy being ~so successful~, give a fuck about if any of the rest of us "make it."

That's wrong, and a horribly negative attitude. It must suck being that negative all the time. From what I've seen; most people who are successful striving towards goals actually DO care..not about necessarily about absolutely everyone but, in general if you approach people and ask nicely they will give you some great tips...and spend a lot of time giving back to their peers, in different ways.

There's a whole industry based around it, a big one, for artists especially: workshops. The main - stay for most photographers and retouchers..you see a lot of that genre on here. There's at least two people on the previous page who entirely major in it and nothing else.

Star wrote:
Mainly I am saying if you feel like you can't make it in this business- why not do this for fun, if money comes then great.

Yep. For me, I'm in San Diego and don't see myself leaving anytime soon. So the chances of making a living shooting fashion for me are.... ZERO!
So I shoot for fun and as a way to develop my style and personal vision. I'm cool with that.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I don't see why any of you, especially the OP if she's so busy being ~so successful~, give a fuck about if any of the rest of us "make it."

Because some people don't want to see their fellow man bashing their head against the wall.

Karl JW Johnston wrote:

That's wrong, and a horribly negative attitude. It must suck being that negative all the time. From what I've seen; most people who are successful striving towards goals actually DO care..not about necessarily about absolutely everyone but, in general if you approach people and ask nicely they will give you some great tips...and spend a lot of time giving back to their peers, in different ways.

There's a whole industry based around it, a big one, for artists especially: workshops. The main - stay for most photographers and retouchers..you see a lot of that genre on here. There's at least two people on the previous page who entirely major in it and nothing else.

didn't read lol

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I don't think she said to give up trying.   Her advice is find what the requirements are.   Fashion modeling is more strict then commercial but their are standards and people looking to become signed or work as pros need to know what they are.   Its been said it takes around ten years to master skills.   Some take a shorter time others won't.   Their are MUA who make nothing after years of trying and others who do well very quickly.   Same for retouchers and photographers.   Being a pro shooter requires a through understanding of light.   Its not about having the ability to pose some have naked women in her kit or nude spread over some tree branches.   Some shooters have a natural talent for working with studio and natural light.   Others do not and must work much harder to achieve those skills.

Where in what she said is their give up?   ..." Mainly I am saying if you feel like you can't make it in this business- why not do this for fun, if money comes then great. Imagine you want to be a painter, sure you can do some local fairs but mainly you are spending a lot of time and effort to create something you like for yourself and screw everyone else."    I don't see give up.   Star is among a small number of actual pros who do post here.   We don't have to agree with her but we shouldn't put words in her mouth or make claims of things she said that she didn't.   She doesn't need me to defend her though but again , must we eat our own.   Saying that a members post is bullshit when that member is a actual working professional with multiple tears strikes me as insulting and misses the point altogether.   Her advice is based on her experiences  as a working pro.   I seem to recall she even modeled for a while.   She also retouches her work.

But by all means continue with the bashing.   Its always the 'in' thing to do on MM.

Course

Well it doesn't stop you bashing the models who have multiple tears and actually make a living at this Tony does it? Ah but we are all mercenary but photographers are allowed to make money and work in " the industry" without having that levelled at them.


As I said. What does God want with a starship?

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
didn't read lol

lol wow, how ignorant can a person get? you're not in any way related to modeling or photography, in any industry of any kind, yet you exist on this site to plain troll ..i suppose they need all the traffic they can get.


this attitude is likely why you encounter nobody wanting to help you

best of luck

Karl JW Johnston wrote:
lol wow, how ignorant can a person get? you're not in any way related to modeling or photography, in any industry of any kind, yet you exist on this site to plain troll ..i suppose they need all the traffic they can get.


this attitude is likely why you encounter nobody wanting to help you

Tell me more about your wealth of knowledge of me.

I decided recently, the people on MM are not the kind I want help from. I have real artist friends and colleagues to go to.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
If you are trying to become a pro fashion or fashion shooter


snip

Can you bold this on your post.

It may slow down some of the attacks.
It I may be more applicable to high Fashion.

But otherwise, pretty much agree.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Can you bold this on your post.

It may slow down some of the attacks.
It I may be more applicable to high Fashion.

But otherwise, pretty much agree.

Why would we attack this post? Is not filled with missinformation and bullshit like the OP

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I decided recently, the people on MM are not the kind I want help from.

You do realize there are ways to not get help other than being rude, don't you?

Granted, it's a very easy way to not get help, but it's cheap and tacky, and doesn't show much dedication to the goal. And, in many places, it's agin' the rule.

Jus' sayin'.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Why would we attack this post? Is not filled with missinformation and bullshit like the OP

So what?

Why care what goes on here?





Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Thinking Inside The Box wrote:
You do realize there are ways to not get help other than being rude, don't you?

Like... not ask? As in the very thing I do now?

Can you stop derailing a thread to personally attack me?

Herman Surkis wrote:

Can you bold this on your post.

It may slow down some of the attacks.
It I may be more applicable to high Fashion.

But otherwise, pretty much agree.

Hi, Herman.   I misspoke there.   I meant to write commercial because high fashion is a very narrow genre.   Most of the paid work agencies offer is lifestyle, catalog, local ads and commercial work.   Its important that your book be filled with faces that have a look that matches your concept.   If you were to approach Clinque to try and get in on a campaign you have to show women who have great symmetrical faces.   In most markets its a good ideal to have solid product and food work to show.   A lot of photographers think its being super creative or unique that matters.   Actually it tends to be having consistent professional work.   Details matter.   You really are judged by the models in your book.   A lot of the photographers here do beautiful images but their often over processed.   Something Star touched on.   

Unless you live in a fashion market having a booked filled with crazy editorial styled photos might get you laughed at.   Clients often want corporate reports done for example.   The first and most important step to make after you learn how to compose, light and style your work is to find great models.   That is if your focus is becoming a working fashion or commercial model.   Nothing wrong with starting here but finding good models here is often not easy.

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:

So what?

Why care what goes on here?





Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

I dunno

Maybe is because I retouch I spend a lot of time online

Maybe is because I dislike it in general when someone is categoric with ignorance

Maybe is because I teach and I spend the first day trying to erase bullshit from people's minds first

Maybe is because when I was learning I got sidetrack for like 2 years because of missinformation and I'm an efficiency freak?

Loads of possibilities

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

Why would we attack this post? Is not filled with missinformation and bullshit like the OP

Why anybody attack his post?
You have got to be kidding?
You ask that question on MM?

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Hi, Herman.   I misspoke there.   I meant to write commercial because high fashion is a very narrow genre.   Most of the paid work agencies offer is lifestyle, catalog, local ads and commercial work.   Its important that your book be filled with faces that have a look that matches your concept.   If you were to approach Clinque to try and get in on a campaign you have to show women who have great symmetrical faces.   In most markets its a good ideal to have solid product and food work to show.   A lot of photographers think its being super creative or unique that matters.   Actually it tends to be having consistent professional work.   Details matter.   You really are judged by the models in your book.   A lot of the photographers here do beautiful images but their often over processed.   Something Star touched on.   

Unless you live in a fashion market having a booked filled with crazy editorial styled photos might get you laughed at.   Clients often want corporate reports done for example.   The first and most important step to make after you learn how to compose, light and style your work is to find great models.   That is if your focus is becoming a working fashion or commercial model.   Nothing wrong with starting here but finding good models here is often not easy.

Ok, that clarifies further. But with this topic on MM it is important to be VERY clear whom we are talking about.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

Why would we attack this post? Is not filled with missinformation and bullshit like the OP

What misinformation or bullshit have I given?   Join the PPA?   Look for models at agencies?   Try to assist working pros?   Try and have your work reviewed and seen by art directors.   Study magazine ads?   Understand the markets you work in.   Fill your book with working models?   What exactly?

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Why would we attack this post? Is not filled with missinformation and bullshit like the OP

Tony Lawrence wrote:
What misinformation or bullshit have I given?   Join the PPA?   Look for models at agencies?   Try to assist working pros?   Try and have your work reviewed and seen by art directors.   Study magazine ads?   Understand the markets you work in.   Fill your book with working models?   What exactly?

Are you the OP

BillyVegas wrote:
My advice to anyone wanting to make a living from photography... Be creative!

Revolutionary.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I don't see why any of you, especially the OP if she's so busy being ~so successful~, give a fuck about if any of the rest of us "make it."

I think sometimes people want to continue the grand feeling they may get from an assignment by giving a lecture to people.  "Idiots, I'm here to help you become less stupid. . ."

LA StarShooter wrote:

I think sometimes people want to continue the grand feeling they may get from an assignment by giving a lecture to people.  "Idiots, I'm here to help you become less stupid. . ."

You may be on to something.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hi, Herman.   I misspoke there.   I meant to write commercial because high fashion is a very narrow genre.   Most of the paid work agencies offer is lifestyle, catalog, local ads and commercial work.   Its important that your book be filled with faces that have a look that matches your concept.   If you were to approach Clinque to try and get in on a campaign you have to show women who have great symmetrical faces.   In most markets its a good ideal to have solid product and food work to show.   A lot of photographers think its being super creative or unique that matters.   Actually it tends to be having consistent professional work.   Details matter.   You really are judged by the models in your book.   A lot of the photographers here do beautiful images but their often over processed.   Something Star touched on.   

Unless you live in a fashion market having a booked filled with crazy editorial styled photos might get you laughed at.   Clients often want corporate reports done for example.   The first and most important step to make after you learn how to compose, light and style your work is to find great models.   That is if your focus is becoming a working fashion or commercial model.   Nothing wrong with starting here but finding good models here is often not easy.

It's easier when you accept to ensure good models you have to pay something. Tf posts get less than ten views, interesting paid work gets hundreds. So by not offering pay you severely limit your chances of booking reliable models.

As for models having to be industry standard etc . UGLY model agency's clients have included Calvin Klein, Levis, Diesel, Vogue and Cosmopolitan.
http://www.odditycentral.com/news/ugly- … dards.html



Not that I disagree with many of the points you have made. But it's not the only way to do things.

Creative industries are more like exploring a country than climbing a ladder rung by rung. If you plan a route too much you can miss great opportunity.  I've told you before for example people like,Marco Sanges using character models but his work still got noticed and he does campaigns. Sure then he gets agency models approved by the client usually. But it's not what he does in his own work.





Warning 18 plus
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rqAt6kYgaww/T … 538972.jpg


He uses life models and character models. And imho he's one of the most visionary photographers here. In creative industry, sometimes success can happen through doing things differently to everyone else, not the same.


Dare to be different .

Tony Lawrence wrote:

What misinformation or bullshit have I given?   Join the PPA?   Look for models at agencies?   Try to assist working pros?   Try and have your work reviewed and seen by art directors.   Study magazine ads?   Understand the markets you work in.   Fill your book with working models?   What exactly?

Easy big guy... she is not talking about you.

Star wrote:
stylists- become a PR girl and work from there .

What about males???

Star wrote:
make-up artists- let us just start with if you don't have at least 10 years of experience you are unlikely to make it in editorial in a large market.

5-10 is needed for smaller markets

3-5 for wedding work

1-3 for Glamour shops

oh- and you need to be really good. There isn't really a hobbiest market as such for make-up so I suggest you go into the MUA forums and learn from the people in there, they mainly know what they are doing.

Rubbish!

It has little to do with years of experience and everything to do with skill.
I have shot editorial and beauty advertising with makeup artists with less than 5 years experience. The most brilliant makeup artist I worked with had been doing makeup for about 6 months. Incredible eye and excellent technique.

Fred Greissing wrote:

What about males???

THAT'S A LADY JOB.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Easy big guy... she is not talking about you.

He can't read

Maybe his head is too far up someone's something

(Oh come on mods.... That was funny)

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

He can't read

Maybe his head is too far up someone's something

(Oh come on mods.... That was funny)

My apologies.   I thought you were speaking about my points.   Eliza.. if you see this.   Once you reach a certain level of skill and sometimes before who do.   Your models look is almost more important then your ability.   I've gone to agencies with friends who were told to not show certain models in their books and offered models from the agency.   As counter intuitive  as it may sound being creative sounds great but advertising directors and many clients want consistent professional work.   Chicago's; Jack Perno said it best.   Its about the girls.   http://www.jackperno.com/print-1

Several weeks ago there was a discussion about having more new members and some past members come back to the forums.   A member has started a thread that in my mind is not that controversial.   Many careers take around ten years to get going in.  For some its less.   For some its never.   After reading some of the replies I wouldn't return either and if I were considering starting a thread or adding to one.   I wouldn't.   MM has truly become a toxic place.

Have a nice day everyone.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

We disagree on several points.... Well most except one: not everyone can make it.

Photographers: doing it for a hobbie won't necesarily make you good with time since you have no standards if you do it for yourself. Not real ones.

Models: are you leaving out ALL the commercial work that has nothing to do with fashion and its high end commercial? Like 45 year old woman drinking coffee with fat husband for an ad?

Muas: I can give you at least 25 names of muas making it in the industry with less than 5 years of experience.

Retouchers: you couldn't be MORE wrong, there's plenty of middle range market for every good retoucher out there. I will be willing to bet there's more work to make a living just retouching than good retouchers one can outsource work to. Where are you gettin your information?

This! I couldn't have said it any better.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

It's easier when you accept to ensure good models you have to pay something. Tf posts get less than ten views, interesting paid work gets hundreds. So by not offering pay you severely limit your chances of booking reliable models.

As for models having to be industry standard etc . UGLY model agency's clients have included Calvin Klein, Levis, Diesel, Vogue and Cosmopolitan.
http://www.odditycentral.com/news/ugly- … dards.html



Not that I disagree with many of the points you have made. But it's not the only way to do things.

Creative industries are more like exploring a country than climbing a ladder rung by rung. If you plan a route too much you can miss great opportunity.  I've told you before for example people like,Marco Sanges using character models but his work still got noticed and he does campaigns. Sure then he gets agency models approved by the client usually. But it's not what he does in his own work.





Warning 18 plus
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rqAt6kYgaww/T … 538972.jpg


He uses life models and character models. And imho he's one of the most visionary photographers here. In creative industry, sometimes success can happen through doing things differently to everyone else, not the same.


Dare to be different .

Eliza, although I agree, I suspect that is even tougher. In my experience, and the experience of a few people I know, most AD's have the creativity of an army ant following the crowd. Thus you would have to be extraordinary to capture the attention of the 1% of AD's who would recognize talent that can be molded to their needs. I really like your example, but Tony's way is the easier of the two. They prefer to hire those that are doing what they understand, only perhaps better than the other person.

"In creative industry, sometimes success can happen through doing things differently to everyone else, not the same."

I agree, but it is rare.
The usual seems to be "more of the same".

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Many careers take around ten years to get going in.  For some its less.   For some its never.

You know what makes it never for sure? Fucking quiting and "doing it it for fun" as the OP puts it

That's mediocre. Telling people to quit trying getting work and just do it for fun is sad.

Not o ly that but from a high horse and missinformation.


Do you agree models need to be high fashion or quit?

Do you agree that if you don't have 5 years of experience you can't be a mua?

Do you agree that I you're not doing high end campaigns you should quit retouching ?

She didn't come back because she knows she is full of shit

BillyVegas wrote:
My advice to anyone wanting to make a living from photography... Be creative!

Get to know editors and art dir ... and buy them lunch.

WIP wrote:

Get to know editors and art dir ... and buy them lunch.

Sorry.

But, I must agree.

Socializing and marketing will LIKELY take you much further than talent.

Sad, but true.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Sorry.

But, I must agree.

Socializing and marketing will LIKELY take you much further than talent.

Sad, but true.

talent is raw, it doesn't carry far..gets you to one place and leaves you there

skill on the other hand, and the development of it..turning skill into experience.. coupled with proper marketing

and in a lot of cases skill, talent, and being considered "good" in the eyes of your peers is irrelevant

may get somewhere with that, it's not sad..it's not happy it's just the way it is