Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Thankfully I didn't read this post or join MM before I started modelling. If I had, I'd never have made a decent living at it for three years , and had some amazing experiences.

There's no set career path in creative industries. You make your own niche. And the op posts a very narrow view of what 'the industry' is,without defining it.
There isn't one 'industry' here. Maybe the advice is apt for the high fashion mags but there are thousands if people making a living on MM who are either in other fields - be it as a life model or an artist (including photo artists) , a sports or wedding photographer who does some local mag editorial and boutique ads, promo models, glamour shooters and models, theatre cinema and tv people be they performers or wardrobe and make up people, then there's the commercial world where you have models of all types including character models, etc etc. Many of us cross over many genres; and the process is often more like exploring a country than climbing a ladder. And you have to be open to new routes and opportunities that may open up. I certainly never expected I'd be on a,runway or in magazines when I started out as a life model. But not one to turn down paid work and other interesting opportunities, I ended up working across many genres.

Some of the advice is good I guess, but I was earning money as a model from day one and know plenty of others do too.

So what I'd add to it , and unless you're a retoucher it probably goes across the board: be near a Primary market. That's especially important for most models, unless they have a travelling plan.  You have to be in a big city with Fashion and Art and advertising and trade fairs to give yourself a chance. But even thats not written in stone because I know plenty that are big fishes in small ponds.

I agree.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Interesting that OP hasn't been back to backup a single one of the many counterpoints presented.

You expect responses from STAR? C'mon, she's a goddess among men, pretty much runs this industry... only steps down from time to time to communicate with us peasants to tell us what we're doing wrong.

Gods don't discuss the heavens with effing peasants.

Peter House wrote:
I can't speak for the other talent, but as far as photographers go, here are my observations:

Success in photography boils down to three things. The first is having a solid grasp of the technical aspects. This comes from experience and practice. Some are faster learners, but with enough time, most can learn it fairly well.

The second, and this is the hard part, is marketing. It's all about focus. Carving a niche. Be known for something, and promote the hell out of it. Be that person your clients think of when they need a specific look or genre shot. It's not just about shooting food, or architecture, or portraits. Keep defining it further. And PROMOTE.

The third is customer service. Your people skills are paramount before, during, and after a shoot. Learn to be a people pleaser and how to communicate professionally and personably.

That's it. That is all there is to it. It's the same way any and every small business in the world is run.

very odd that talent, vision, and taste didn’t make your list.

WIP wrote:

So what you're saying in regards to MM or maybe the whole world that the majority are crap.

Isn't that a known fact?

Maybe not crap but definitively mediocre.

WIP wrote:
Your cup is full! No more tea will go in.” ... “Like this cup,” the master said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. 'There is nothing more your mind is closed'.

Err ok

We disagree again. I do nothing but learn every day

WIP wrote:
Your cup is full! No more tea will go in.” ... “Like this cup,” the master said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. 'There is nothing more your mind is closed'.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Thankfully I didn't read this post or join MM before I started modelling. If I had, I'd never have made a decent living at it for three years , and had some amazing experiences.

There's no set career path in creative industries. You make your own niche. And the op posts a very narrow view of what 'the industry' is,without defining it.
There isn't one 'industry' here. Maybe the advice is apt for the high fashion mags but there are thousands if people making a living on MM who are either in other fields - be it as a life model or an artist (including photo artists) , a sports or wedding photographer who does some local mag editorial and boutique ads, promo models, glamour shooters and models, theatre cinema and tv people be they performers or wardrobe and make up people, then there's the commercial world where you have models of all types including character models, etc etc. Many of us cross over many genres; and the process is often more like exploring a country than climbing a ladder. And you have to be open to new routes and opportunities that may open up. I certainly never expected I'd be on a,runway or in magazines when I started out as a life model. But not one to turn down paid work and other interesting opportunities, I ended up working across many genres.

Some of the advice is good I guess, but I was earning money as a model from day one and know plenty of others do too.

So what I'd add to it , and unless you're a retoucher it probably goes across the board: be near a Primary market. That's especially important for most models, unless they have a travelling plan.  You have to be in a big city with Fashion and Art and advertising and trade fairs to give yourself a chance. But even thats not written in stone because I know plenty that are big fishes in small ponds.

sometimes I despair for the universe. I am going to do one follow up post, even though I honestly don't give a damn since this post said clearly IF YOU ARE NOT MAKING MONEY, WHY NOT DO IT FOR FUN and sadly no one wants to do this for fun it seems, only for money. Why else get so upset?

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Thankfully I didn't read this post or join MM before I started modelling. If I had, I'd never have made a decent living at it for three years , and had some amazing experiences.

Yes, thank god you never saw a post telling people information like this

"Every type of modeling has its requirements. Learn what they are and see if you fit into them. NO model I have ever met easily lives on modeling. It is as hard as working at Burger King and in the end you make about as much. BUT you can say you are a model. "

Obviously you have no idea what you are doing and made no effort to see the different genres and types of modeling available. You made no effort to

"Find who you are through modeling. Maybe you aren't a "pretty" model. Well then what kind of model are you, are you a kick ass chick like the Derby Girls. Who are you and how will that translate into what you do...

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
And the op posts a very narrow view of what 'the industry' is,without defining it.

Yes I constantly reference the "industry" when i say.... wait I don't fucking say a work about "the industry" . When did I post this narrow view, am I sleep typing now? Are there invisible parts of my OP? WHAT year is it and do I have time to save the president?

Seriously, guess it was just god damned irresponsible of me to not define "the industry" in my OP and have at the same time a very narrow view of it without ever actually referring to "it".

That could not in way shape or form have been on purpose. no way the quotes around it were referencing the way people on MM talk. No way that it was nothing other than stupid of my to never ever define it. Saying things like paying work is no excuse I need to define industry in my OP, even if I never say that phrase except in the subject line. Stupid, stupid me. So narrow, so defined, so exclusionary of me.

"Every type of modeling has its requirements. Learn what they are and see if you fit into them." and "It is good to have goals, to set them for yourself" and "Mainly I am saying if you feel like you can't make it in this business- why not do this for fun, if money comes then great." oh and don't forget that bullshit about

"Behave like it is an art form, and you will get better results"

Shit that is just terrible advice. If you followed that advice you would never have made it as a model because you would have been responsible and knowledgeable about you chosen field and shit that would have been just plain stupid. Who wants to work with someone who wants to enjoy themselves and express themselves through modeling, not your clients right?


THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

Nobody look at the start of the OP where I say

"how do I get work?"
and

"If you find yourself not booking paying work..."

It is apparent from casting a sphere and reading the Akashik records (and who doesn't do that when reading posts on MM) that I am just referring to the fashion industry. Damn right I would never say work or paying work and mean ANY OTHER type of work but fashion. Sure just cause I don't say fashion, or refer to fashion, or talk about fashion in regard to the phrase "work" doesn't mean I don't mean fashion. I OBVIOUSLY mean fashion, that is why I so carefully say abso-fucking-lutely nothing about fashion.


All in all i am soooo glad you have all (come on it isn't just the quoted person) brought me to task on my narrow, undefined view of "the industry" (not an oxymoron at all people) and how this OP was so heartless and exclusionary. Sure there aren't any parts that are ACTUALLY worded as heartless or exclusionary, but that is just a small point easily ignored.

NOBODY dare enjoy what you do or seek to find yourself through the art. That is BAD, BAD, BAD. Obviously it is bad because i said it in the OP.










oh and one quick hint about "the industry" for those of you who have never ever ever read the description or title of this mother fucking forum

General Industry
General industry discussion. No spam.

Star wrote:
oh and one quick hint about "the industry" for those of you who have never ever ever read the description or title of this mother fucking forum

General Industry
General industry discussion. No spam.

So, why are you making such ridiculously sweeping generalizations about "The Industry," only to later say it's the "General Industry?"

Star wrote:
sometimes I despair for the universe. I am going to do one follow up post, even though I honestly don't give a damn since this post said clearly IF YOU ARE NOT MAKING MONEY, WHY NOT DO IT FOR FUN and sadly no one wants to do this for fun it seems, only for money. Why else get so upset?


Yes, thank god you never saw a post telling people information like this

"Every type of modeling has its requirements. Learn what they are and see if you fit into them. NO model I have ever met easily lives on modeling. It is as hard as working at Burger King and in the end you make about as much. BUT you can say you are a model. "

Obviously you have no idea what you are doing and made no effort to see the different genres and types of modeling available. You made no effort to

"Find who you are through modeling. Maybe you aren't a "pretty" model. Well then what kind of model are you, are you a kick ass chick like the Derby Girls. Who are you and how will that translate into what you do...




Yes I constantly reference the "industry" when i say.... wait I don't fucking say a work about "the industry" . When did I post this narrow view, am I sleep typing now? Are there invisible parts of my OP? WHAT year is it and do I have time to save the president?

Seriously, guess it was just god damned irresponsible of me to not define "the industry" in my OP and have at the same time a very narrow view of it without ever actually referring to "it".

That could not in way shape or form have been on purpose. no way the quotes around it were referencing the way people on MM talk. No way that it was nothing other than stupid of my to never ever define it. Saying things like paying work is no excuse I need to define industry in my OP, even if I never say that phrase except in the subject line. Stupid, stupid me. So narrow, so defined, so exclusionary of me.

"Every type of modeling has its requirements. Learn what they are and see if you fit into them." and "It is good to have goals, to set them for yourself" and "Mainly I am saying if you feel like you can't make it in this business- why not do this for fun, if money comes then great." oh and don't forget that bullshit about

"Behave like it is an art form, and you will get better results"

Shit that is just terrible advice. If you followed that advice you would never have made it as a model because you would have been responsible and knowledgeable about you chosen field and shit that would have been just plain stupid. Who wants to work with someone who wants to enjoy themselves and express themselves through modeling, not your clients right?


THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

Nobody look at the start of the OP where I say

"how do I get work?"
and

"If you find yourself not booking paying work..."

It is apparent from casting a sphere and reading the Akashik records (and who doesn't do that when reading posts on MM) that I am just referring to the fashion industry. Damn right I would never say work or paying work and mean ANY OTHER type of work but fashion. Sure just cause I don't say fashion, or refer to fashion, or talk about fashion in regard to the phrase "work" doesn't mean I don't mean fashion. I OBVIOUSLY mean fashion, that is why I so carefully say abso-fucking-lutely nothing about fashion.


All in all i am soooo glad you have all (come on it isn't just the quoted person) brought me to task on my narrow, undefined view of "the industry" (not an oxymoron at all people) and how this OP was so heartless and exclusionary. Sure there aren't any parts that are ACTUALLY worded as heartless or exclusionary, but that is just a small point easily ignored.

NOBODY dare enjoy what you do or seek to find yourself through the art. That is BAD, BAD, BAD. Obviously it is bad because i said it in the OP.










oh and one quick hint about "the industry" for those of you who have never ever ever read the description or title of this mother fucking forum

General Industry
General industry discussion. No spam.

Did you actually read my post or just get outraged at the bit where, and other people here have pulled you on it too, that the industry isn't one thing? So my point was it wasn't 'general' industry, and wasn't specifically one section definition. That was my point.

So when you go on about agencies, that's for fashion models. You then go on about doing it for fun. And that if the money comes great.
But in fact MANY models here earn income from life modelling from DAY ONE. If they are good,at it and in a primary market they will get plenty of work. MANY models here do this. And it's,enjoyable too....in a primary market it's surprising who does life drawing - designers, film makers, photographers, media people etc as well as fine artists. It's thus great for networking. Then there's promotional modelling, fit modelling, and glamour modelling. You get paid pretty quickly. Again immediately generally.  These things can be fun to do. But you get paid. Now either we are part of the general industry in which case your advice and thoughts on modelling for fun are not right, or we aren't in the part of the industry you mean. Hence I questioned legitimately what you were meaning.

I dare say some muas and stylists would question such rigid 'advice' too.


But I also said most of the advice was GOOD. Though had a few small crits, and an addition ie the primary market.


I think the problem here is that this 'industry' is so wide and encompasses many people doing a bit of it or amateur or hobbyist, on top, that over view advice is ny nature going to be flawed, and subjective.  Many models as I said get paid right away but it doesn't mean they ate creative. Like any other field if you aren't good,at it, enjoy it and learn as you go along, you won't sustain it for long. But that doesn't mean that you should go into it with a view that it's for fun or creative outlet. Certainly doesn't apply to promotional work as such though it can be enjoyable.


Truth is many models only shoot for some of their workload. Often a minority if it. Same with photographers. They may shoot for a living by specialusing in a niche like sports, but do a bit of model photography for a variety if reasons. Some it may be just work ie commercial, others it may be for Art, others because they enjoy shooting beautiful women, and some far less lofty purpose as art. Others find photography as a hobby mostly but they find themselves shooting models for payment without ever having planned to. Then you have muas who work in theatre etc or in a salon. They do it for a living. Pretty much soon as they qualify a lot of them. I know some who've done it professionally all their life but need model pics just to promote what they do. So it covers so many different routes and networks, and paid and amateur, that the general drift do it for fun and art and see what happens may not be valid for all.

I certainly don't think that you have to go into it for love or art necessarily; not does it follow if you do get paid early on you don't value those aspects of it too. Often that's the reason you get paid work. Sure I behaved like its an Art form....so knew it was pretty damn seriously about Art when I was booked by the Royal Academy. But I was only able to do that because I started knowing I had to earn money out of it immediately. Fortunately, artists and art institutions know you get what you pay for. So I take photographers who don't , and lecture us on Art and love of art with a great big pinch of salt

WIP wrote:
Probably the only one; how many people on MM make an effort to visit art galleries in various forms ? I'd think a very small percentage.

Well I'd say every model that works with artists does it regularly so that's a good few thousand of us. We model at them, we get invited to private views etc.  I don't know any models who life model who don't regularly go to art galleries.

Not that we mercenary low lifes know anything about Art of course.....

-JAY- wrote:

You expect responses from STAR? C'mon, she's a goddess among men, pretty much runs this industry... only steps down from time to time to communicate with us peasants to tell us what we're doing wrong.

Gods don't discuss the heavens with effing peasants.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

howard r wrote:
very odd that talent, vision, and taste didn’t make your list.

Those things matter very little compared to stuff like sales skills, and understanding marketing strategy. I have friends who pay "professional photographers" (I put that in quotes, because professional can mean a lot of different things, but here I mean people who are consistently earning money shooting) to take photos of their families, children and life events. One woman I went to school with recently had her 2nd daughter. They were posed in front of the old "wronkled sheet," spaced oddly, with too much negative space; they were just bad photos. Yet, because the woman who took them is very good at sales, and well networked in her community, she is able to make a living shooting really awful photos of families and children.

It's not quality that MARKETS a product. It's accessibility, familiarity, and personality of the salesman.

Koryn wrote:

Those things matter very little compared to stuff like sales skills, and understanding marketing strategy. I have friends who pay "professional photographers" (I put that in quotes, because professional can mean a lot of different things, but here I mean people who are consistently earning money shooting) to take photos of their families, children and life events. One woman I went to school with recently had her 2nd daughter. They were posed in front of the old "wronkled sheet," spaced oddly, with too much negative space; they were just bad photos. Yet, because the woman who took them is very good at sales, and well networked in her community, she is able to make a living shooting really awful photos of families and children.

It's not quality that MARKETS a product. It's accessibility, familiarity, and personality of the salesman.

People just want photos.  They don't know what good photos look like!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
People just want photos.  They don't know what good photos look like!

Nothing wrong with that at all. Just means that I need to be a better sales person than someone who does better work than me.

Kind of levels the playing field a little.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

-JAY- wrote:
You expect responses from STAR? C'mon, she's a goddess among men, pretty much runs this industry... only steps down from time to time to communicate with us peasants to tell us what we're doing wrong.

Gods don't discuss the heavens with effing peasants.

Like her or not, she is one of the few success stories from MM. It was fun to see her career and work evolve to where it is now, and it seems she keeps herself busy with work.

That's more than a lot of us can say.


This dosent mean I agree with her on this thread, I don't on some points, but due to what she does it is worth reading and seeing her perspective.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Like her or not, she is one of the few success stories from MM. It was fun to see her career and work evolve to where it is now, and it seems she keeps herself busy with work.

That's more than a lot of us can say.


This dosent mean I agree with her on this thread, I don't on some points, but due to what she does it is worth reading and seeing her perspective.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Indeed, Star foreman rocks. She's also oldschool on this sitr and her threads are always nice to read. Comparatively you're a newb and have yet to blossom, Jay,  but I think it will be interesting to watch when you do..regardless, it's not very forum guide-y to mock

WIP wrote:

So what you're saying in regards to MM or maybe the whole world that the majority are crap.

Your cup is full! No more tea will go in.” ... “Like this cup,” the master said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. 'There is nothing more your mind is closed'.

that’s a great proverb but i don’t think that’s the point here. saying that most of the work on model mayhem is pretty mediocre has nothing to do with being closed-minded. there is some great work here, but not a lot, and one of the most glaring things missing is that people have mediocre taste. you can’t grow as an artist unless the people who inspire you are great artists.

Karl JW Johnston wrote:
Indeed, Star foreman rocks. She's also oldschool on this sitr and her threads are always nice to read. Comparatively you're a newb and have yet to blossom, Jay,  but I think it will be interesting to watch regardless.

I wouldn't call Jay new, just that I think Star has some insight that others may not have and that she is working a lot more as a photographers than most around here.

Again, not saying what she says is always right, or that I agree with, just that she should be treated with some respect.

In fact I would write a reply to her first post, just haven't had time lately and my cell isn't a great place to do it.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
I wouldn't call Jay new,




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Karl JW Johnston wrote:
Comparatively

I'm not saying he's green and has nothing to contribute in general but, I agree, she has much more insight in the day to day industry of her type of photographer than many.

Karl JW Johnston wrote:

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
I wouldn't call Jay new,




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

I'm not saying he's green and has nothing to contribute in general but, I agree, she has much more insight in the day to day industry of her type of photographer than many.

Except that she was talking about things she DOES NOT know about in the same condescending tone.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Except that she was talking about things she DOES NOT know about in the same condescending tone.

So what?

A lot of people here do that all the time. Its why I like to research who is saying what and then make up my own mind as to who is doing what they say they are.

Again I don't agree with her on a lot of points, I just feel she does more than most people posting here. Dosent mean she is right, just that its neat to see her perspective on things.


Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Except that she was talking about things she DOES NOT know about in the same condescending tone.

so what..it's MM..every post on here is full of that, but.. at least we all fit in just nicely together   one big happy family of condescending-ness

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right

So now you're the MM policia? Going to ticket everyone that dosent follow what your view of the industry is?




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right

nope, they don't. though i've seen this trend with you last week and that facebook guy.

no need to get your feathers in a flurry over something so insignificant, waste of energy.

it burns a person up to fight so much and get nothing back in return.

you don't have to get so excited, nothing to prove to anyone, and i'm sure you have better things to be doing

chill out a bit

WIP wrote:
Not everyone can be work in "the industry"
Not everyone wants to.
Not everyone want to do perfecto retouching.
Not everyone wants to be Picasso.

Some people are happy just to do their own thing... anything wrong with that ?

Careful, being reasonable and seeing all sides of an issue may get you a ticket from the mm policia!



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:

Careful, being reasonable and seeing all sides of an issue may get you a ticket from the mm policia!



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

If only it had some truth

Everyone would like to make a living doing what they love.

If not, you wouldn't even read this thread.

The industry Is wide.

Exhibitions are the industry
Journalism are the industry
Magazines are the industry

Jeff Waters Photography wrote:
Why is your grammar so poor?

itz sumfing vewy unhedukated peeps liek mi duz.

WIP wrote:
I've a friend who loves playing golf but he wouldn't want to make a living out of it, another who loves making cakes but she wouldn't want to make a living out of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong Natalia but didn't to start retouching because you were bored and wanted something to do... not from love but from bordem.

I started using photoshop for fun, retouching I did it because I wanted to do it for a living.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right

One wrong is especially wrong.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Except that she was talking about things she DOES NOT know about in the same condescending tone.

That's pretty accurate.  If she can specify what "industry" is then people can be more specific about how wrong she is about her post.

5'7" - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0548247/bio?ref_=nm_ql_1

And the condescending attitude has been there for as long as I've been in here.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:

If only it had some truth

Everyone would like to make a living doing what they love.

If not, you wouldn't even read this thread.

The industry Is wide.

Exhibitions are the industry
Journalism are the industry
Magazines are the industry

Also worth pointing out that because of that broad width (and depth), and the public illusion that the industry is the tiny pinnacle at top of an iceberg in a vast sea of icebergs, often one ends up working in a role one didn't set out to. As I said I just did life modelling. Ended up doing other kinds. I was recently offered a job in editorial for a magazine (turned it down) in strength if my blog which only touched on fashion. Others I know do some modelling, some make up , hair styling even photography etc . Some fit models become fashion designers, some fashion design students go as intern in the press office of a fashion company and become stylist, some models become actresses, some photographers become film makers etc etc .
So it's an industry which there aren't ladders or one way of doing something and often effective networking and an open mind can take you in directions on a fast track you didn't expect.

Kithos wrote:
I know 5'4 models, over the age of 35, with 36D-29-42 measurements and fake breasts making 10-15K a month shooting mainstream modeling work.

That is awesome!

What kind of mainstream work are all those models doing and do you have links to their tear sheets and campaign?

Would love to see them!

I'd be guessing those would be something like car, luxury and beverage commercials?

WIP wrote:
Some people are happy just to do their own thing... anything wrong with that ?

Some people just like to lecture others who don't do things their way. Heck, even those who don't see the world the same way they do.

One presumes such people see something wrong with what they're railing against. (The alternatives are far less flattering.)