Lohkee wrote:

Mandatory reporting requirements are just that - mandatory. So the docs report it. the police come. The vic doesn't know/cant remember anything. End of story.

Thanks!

I am unfamiliar with the exact procedure, because I haven't been in such a situation.

Lohkee wrote:

Not applicable. In this case, either through action or inaction, the vic is getting exactly what they want.

Sincerely, a dickhole.

You have no idea what you're talking about and I'm done with you. Bye.

Pictures of Life wrote:
In most states suspected child abuse and 'assaults' are mandatory reporting by ED staff, along with a few highly communicable disease. (Suspected elder abuse reporting is mandatory in many sates also.) Assaults that trigger mandatory reporting are generally thought of as knife and gunshot wounds. It's kinda up to the ED staff, and the practitioner. They can report anything, but that doesn't mean the Victim/patient has to provide any info. For serious stuff generally the police show up to take a statement, but it's still freedom of speech, or silence. The ED staff thinking they have to report something does NOT mean the Vic has to say anything. (Suspected child/elder abuse is different.)
     For less serious stuff generally the staff will ask if the Vic wants to report, and only call the police if the Vic wants. Basically if it's obvious you need to call 911, you're bleeding all over, it will get reported, unless you give a convincing cover story. If there is any doubt about needing to go to the ED, you ain't dying, it will only get reported if you want. YMMV

I've advocated against lying. [No making up a bogus story.]
Earlier today MM lawyer via text and with only tiny bit of info suggested that model retain attorney.
How difficult would it be for a lawyer to negotiate a non disclosure agreement to protect model's privacy?
To the hospital--please fix model and don't ask questions, model won't tell!

May be I can contact a healthcare lawyer from local legal  firm of GrayRobinson via LinkedIn.

udor wrote:

Thanks!

I am unfamiliar with the exact procedure, because I haven't been in such a situation.

I'm not a member of the legal or medical professions and so do not know what types of things require a mandatory report (other than a vague notion that many things do).

It doesn't matter.

If the vic chooses not to talk (can't remember, etc), then none of the above matters. Case closed.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

You have no idea what you're talking about and I'm done with you. Bye.

Bye.

udor wrote:

Okay... if I am taking clues from your very cryptic description... this is what I gather:

Your friend might be a (part time) sex worker (with a mainstream white collar job) and got assaulted on the job, maybe not sexually, but beaten up.

So, she may have been beaten up while conducting her illegal trade. Now she fears that if she would go to get medical help, people would find out that she is working in the sex trade and putting this on record somehow, might trigger an investigation into her life and will expose her "sexond job" to her employer and friends and family who don't know about her second career.

Am I close or is my imagination too strong?

If that is the case, I think that there are free clinics that might take her on, without questions, but I am not sure about that.

Nope. No hint of that. However, reeks of stupidity! :-)

FFantastique wrote:

Nope. No hint of that. However, reeks of stupidity! :-)

Really!?

Then, you smart ass... stop beating around the bush and being cryptic, while expecting advise for an unspecified scenario!

Since only YOU know the identity of the person, you can give more info to get better advise!

I am out of here!

FFantastique wrote:
However, reeks of stupidity! :-)

Assuming you are talking about the story you have set forth, I agree 100%  Probably better to go back to SR and count imaginary active accounts.

Rick OBanion Photo wrote:
Go to the doctor..I fell down the stairs...why is this so frickin hard? Doctors can't interrogate you and you are not obligated to talk to anyone else.
Nothing else in your post matters.

That lacks integrity!

I believe in Mark Twain's m.o. "First get the facts...THEN you can distort them how you please!" :-)

I'm an IT guy. GIGO. I don't advocate lying.

Naturally, if the Gestapo ask you where you're hiding the Jews, I might exempt that prevarication if you gave material misdirection.

The MD who rang in while I was trying to complete initial post said that even though the patient came in with an incident report from the store where she fell, she was quizzed, "Do you REALLY believe this old lady when she says she fell in the store busted her lip?"

So even with documentation [which this model has none] s/he may have problems keeping this low key and under wraps.

In fact, I advised model to use Tiger Text.
http://www.tigertext.com/

It's a free smart phone app that allows for your texts to disappear like in Mission Impossible! Had model used such technology diligently and religiously, it's very likely that the current "misunderstanding" and altercation might have been avoided and it wouldn't be sucking up your time and mine trying to secure him/her medical help and CONCURRENTLY secure bona fide assurance for his/her privacy!

udor wrote:
Really!?

Then, you smart ass... stop beating around the bush and being cryptic, while expecting advise for an unspecified scenario!

Since only YOU know the identity of the person, you can give more info to get better advise!

I am out of here!

I am the only one to know identify BUT there are MANY smart people on and off MM who might be able to reverse engineer and identify if I were too specific. So out of an abundance of caution, I try to avoid sharing irrelevant potentially identifying details yet remain focused on figuring out how to repair model so I can eventually shoot--that's my goal here!!

I'm just running out of ideas to I throw this out for the community to help me brainstorm...and I've got at least one actionable item out of these interactions--call a healthcare attorney at GrayRobinson!

Also the lack of specificity allows us to explore a larger solution space of options, some which may be appropro for the current situation.

Bye.

FFantastique wrote:
I believe in Mark Twain's m.o. "First get the facts...THEN you can distort them how you please!" :-)

I'm an IT guy. GIGO. I don't advocate lying.

Nice speech!

Now, could you explain again why you are looking for clandestine ways to conceal the truth from authorities and how that harmonizes with your not-lying-personality?!

FFantastique wrote:

That lacks integrity!

I believe in Mark Twain's m.o. "First get the facts...THEN you can distort them how you please!" :-)

I'm an IT guy. GIGO. I don't advocate lying.

Naturally, if the Gestapo ask you where you're hiding the Jews, I might exempt that prevarication if you gave material misdirection.

The MD who rang in while I was trying to complete initial post said that even though the patient came in with an incident report from the store where she fell, she was quizzed, "Do you REALLY believe this old lady when she says she fell in the store busted her lip?"

So even with documentation [which this model has none] s/he may have problems keeping this low key and under wraps.

In fact, I advised model to use Tiger Text.
http://www.tigertext.com/

It's a free smart phone app that allows for your texts to disappear like in Mission Impossible! Had model used such technology diligently and religiously, it's very likely that the current "misunderstanding" and altercation might have been avoided and it wouldn't be sucking up your time and mine trying to secure him/her medical help and CONCURRENTLY secure bona fide assurance for his/her privacy!

just when I was thinking it couldn't get any better, it does. I'm impressed.

udor wrote:

Nice speech!

Now, could you explain again why you are looking for clandestine ways to conceal the truth from authorities and how that harmonizes with your not-lying-personality?!

** waits with baited breath for a response - it's gotta be good **

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

Uh. Look up "victim blaming."

It does, but I'm also attempting to shed light on why model is not anxious to go "public."

udor wrote:
Nice speech!

Now, could you explain again why you are looking for clandestine ways to conceal the truth from authorities and how that harmonizes with your not-lying-personality?!

Concealing and lying are different.
I don't have to tell you how much I make, but that's vastly different than saying I make US$X per year when it's actually US$Y.
I have no problem reconciling.

It's like the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. No one asks, no one lies.

HOWEVER, at a hospital, they're going to ask. This model doesn't hold up well under interrogation [self report], so simply suggesting that model clam up when LEOs or medical professionals start their questioning is not likely to work IRL with this character.

FFantastique wrote:
Concealing and lying are different.
I don't have to tell you how much I make, but that's vastly different than saying I make US$X per year when it's actually US$Y.
I have no problem reconciling.

It's like the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. No one asks, no one lies.

HOWEVER, at a hospital, they're going to ask. This model doesn't hold up well under interrogation [self report], so simply suggesting that model clam up when LEOs or medical professionals start their questioning is not likely to work IRL with this character.

So lying by omission, otherwise known as exclusionary detailing, is cool with you. Good to know.

Lohkee wrote:

So lying by omission, otherwise known as exclusionary detailing, is cool. Good to know.

A bank clock displays the wrong time -- BAD.
A bank clock is turned off and displays no time-- Not good, but not bad.
IMHO.

Failing to fully disclose how the injury occurred is not detrimental to the medical staff.

Failing to disclose to the buyer of a property that it's over a sink hole IS.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
If the injuries are severe (cuts requiring stitches, possible broken bones, etc.), go to an emergency room, if not severe then a primary care physician or clinic. There may be a police investigation depending on the type of injury. Protecting the perp is counterproductive; assault is rarely an isolated incident and protecting the perp just keeps them around to assault again.

FFantastique wrote:
Apparently privacy is very difficult to achieve in this society! :-(.

Imagine if you're a real celebrity!

When I was a kid, I threw rocks at a wasps next, against parental guidance. I got stung. Part of the motivation for ONLY getting medical care [and nothing else] is that this model isn't approaching the bench with clean hands! [so to speak].

[Please consider exercising some professional decency and decorum. If you're the poster who may have written something, you have the option to revise and extend your remarks! ;-)]

Even if she's a prostitute and the abuser is her pimp, she has a right to be safe and secure in her person.

If she is sufficiently injured to need medical treatment, and she lives in a mandatory reporting state, there will likely be an investigation, and this is a good thing for her. It's a good thing even if her asshole boyfriend goes to jail. telling her anything else is simply perpetuating the cycle of abuse, which makes you not a whole lot better than the abuser in my book.

So man up and tell her something that's hard to say. Even if telling her ends a friendship. Grow a pair.

Edit regarding your last paragraph: I quoted the post I replied to in my first reply. If you edited it after that, I still quoted the post I replied to, an edited post is not what I replied to.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Even if she's a prostitute and the abuser is her pimp, she has a right to be safe and secure in her person.

Don't mention this kind of situation... I suggested it earlier and he called me stupid for doing so...   

Wye wrote:
Is mental health treatment expensive where you are?

Who are you asking?

I don't know that it's cheap anywhere. :-(.

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Even if she's a prostitute and the abuser is her pimp, she has a right to be safe and secure in her person.

udor wrote:
Don't mention this kind of situation... I suggested it earlier and he called me stupid for doing so...   

Well, that's so, Udor, but honestly it doesn't matter. He's welcome to call me stupid too, though to be honest the lack of detail in his "scenario" is itself not exactly intelligent.

Anyway, this country was founded on the theory that everyone has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.". Domestic violence steals this away...

udor wrote:

Don't mention this kind of situation... I suggested it earlier and he called me stupid for doing so...   

NO, I did not! That's not my style.  However, reading the post I can see how that interpretation could be drawn.

What I meant to communicate is the model doesn't want to report not because s/he is engaged in illegal behavior but because possibly because so doing might reveal that s/he has behaved in a manner that reeks of stupidity.

So for the record, I did not call you stupid. I didn't even think you're stupid so there is no Freudian slip. It's just that in my desire to be concise, I was ambiguous.

OK, moving on. I might call the model's behavior stupid. But even then I might refrain, withhold judgment and suggest that is just one of model's concerns about seeking medical help.

In Spain I heard they do something called running with the bulls. From what I understand, the people who do so are not criminals, they are not forced to undertake this dangerous athletic endeavor--they do so volitionally--and some get gored.

Since I know what I know, which is only what I've been told, I do not perceive that I am hereby contributing to a cycle of violence by seeking sources of truly confidential medical care.

I have explicitly and not unforcefully asked said subject to abandon concerns for others and seek care for self. Again, I was not rude in my suggestions. This is a free country (referring to US) and I do not wish to be paternalistic and attempt to demand that model must seek care.

There is a bit of the salesperson in me, model wants medical care without accountability--without having to explain the proximate cause. In a way, I am merely attempting to overcome the objection! :-) So far, despite several hours of research, I haven't succeeded.

Another way to look at this is immunity. Sometimes a prosecutor will give one of the criminals immunity so that s/he will testify against others who were involved. This is not to aid and abet crime but to stop it. Knowing what I know, I think that finding out how to get medical care without naming the perps is appropriate. Hence my pursuit thereof.

We once had a law that made abortions illegals.
Some people resorted to coathangers--an adverse consequence of a well meaning law.
The law is no longer the same. Sometimes public policy doesn't fit all the cases.

Blind adherence to well meaning policies is sometimes not wise.

Mandatory reporting is not bad policy but I think it counterproductive in this case.

More in next post--I am on iPhone and want to switch to larger device. :-)

FFantastique wrote:
More in next post--I am on iPhone and want to switch to larger device. :-)

That's what SHE said... and that's when I saw her last...

Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Fine. You can keep chasing the unicorn of "quality medical care for domestic violence without consequences for the abuser" all day if you want. I think you're a fool for doing so, and you're doing your model friend absolutely no favors.

The OP is an enabler, like the friend who covers for the alcoholic who is repeatedly late to work. 

The model's embarrassment about being in the situation is a side-effect of being in the situation.  She doesn't have the proper perspective.  She doesn't have the self-esteem to value herself enough to get medical treatment because she feels unworthy.  She's more worried about protecting the guilty party than herself.

A real friend would help her get treated and stand there with her in support, not blab personal details all over the internet.

MoRina wrote:
The OP is an enabler, like the friend who covers for the alcoholic who is repeatedly late to work. 

The model's embarrassment about being in the situation is a side-effect of being in the situation.  She doesn't have the proper perspective.  She doesn't have the self-esteem to value herself enough to get medical treatment because she feels unworthy.  She's more worried about protecting the guilty party than herself.

I get all that, Mo, I have more than one friend who has been a victim of domestic violence. And I get that you can't force someone to make any particular choice. So in the OP's situation, I'd narc out the perp to the cops in a heartbeat If I couldn't convince the victim. Yes, that takes the decision away from the victim, but the victim is usually not in any shape mentally to make a decision. And I'd do it even if I knew I'd lose friends over it.

udor wrote:

That's what SHE said... and that's when I saw her last...

:-)

Let me address the matter of seeking to avoid policy.

I have studied the Tenerife crash--worse in aviation history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLrZ2SDDaU
[about 6 minutes].

Long story short, policies have been changed as a result of this accident.

I could end the post there but I feel like I need to explicitly connect the dots and not allow readers to extrapolate...as often they leap to the wrong conclusion without clear guidance.

My point in citing Tenerife is to address those who suggest that a circumvention of policy is necessarily a bad thing.

Let me make explain. According to what I read from other sources, (I'm not going to find cites for everything but I commend to you Karl Weick's analysis for those who are really interested) long before the accident, Dutch crews were violating duty time. Some considered this unsafe. Therefore the Dutch government passed a law that made violation of duty time punishable by:
* loss of license
* fine
* jail time.
No exceptions, no extenuating circumstances.

Since the pilots of the KLM flight (that rolled down the runway without clearance) are dead, we can't interview them to find out what they were thinking but it has been speculated that they feared the consequences of exceeding duty time, notwithstanding that their diversion to the crowded Tenerife airport was out of their control and a result of an unusual and infrequent event--a terrorist attack elsewhere.

It is possible that it was a factor that pressured them to make time be of the essence and not safety and caused the demise of close to 600 people.

So the well-intentioned policy of outlawing overduty time for any reason to try to make the KLM flight crews safer, may have actually contributed to the worse plane accident in history.

When I wrote to them and explained that, they were kind enough to respond that the law is not that way anymore.

Let me drag in other examples:
* it used to be the policy for certain people to sit in different places on the bus. [most people will miss that reference so let me be more clear--The United States used to have a policy of segregation. It was allegedly better for the country.]

* Nazi Germany had a policy of exterminating certain classes of people.

In case it's not obvious, what I'm saying is that sometimes adhering to policy is not always proper.

Even as I suggest advocate reporting the damage and letting the perpetrator reap the adverse consequences, I still want to be able to present the option NOT to have that occur. Yes, I can also disclose that this MIGHT lead to repeat behavior.

I'm about options.

-----
Let me address vagueness again. It's intentional and out of an abundance of caution to protect the identify of all parties concerned. I don't want any adverse consequences from my well intentioned research!

I've heard "No good deed goes unpunished"--so I'm taking a risk by researching but want to make that risk very small.

Thank you for your interest and assistance.

Next call--to deputy sheriff who returned my call.

MoRina wrote:

The OP is an enabler, like the friend who covers for the alcoholic who is repeatedly late to work. 

The model's embarrassment about being in the situation is a side-effect of being in the situation.  She doesn't have the proper perspective.  She doesn't have the self-esteem to value herself enough to get medical treatment because she feels unworthy.  She's more worried about protecting the guilty party than herself.

A real friend would help her get treated and stand there with her in support, not blab personal details all over the internet.

Enabling medical care--first step.
Fixing the underlying problem--next step.
One step at a time.
Don't want model to attempt to swallow the elephant in one bite!

I did raise my voice slightly to emphasize that model should seek care because *I* care even if s/he doesn't!  But that feels like I'm imposing MY will and I am careful not to supersede/override someone else's choices. Again, don't want to be paternalistic and impose my ideas of what is right!

Geographical dispropinquity prevents implementation of the suggestion that I stand by his/her side.

I'm not going to say we're not friends but this is a professional relationship: model-tog. I want to shoot but I want model to be presentable. So I am also acting in the interest of the images to be created. However, some level of humanity supersedes such interests, at least temporarily and I'm working to enable incremental progress.

I have been extremely circumspect in avoiding disclosing personal details. To the best of my knowledge, I have not disclosed, gender, state, age, race, details of the situation, etc.

I do that because we as a community can be helpful in providing insight into this particular case and also raise awareness for others who may be in similar situations but dare not disclose.

How do you build self esteem effectively and quickly?

Thank you for our contribution!

Evan Hiltunen wrote:
Dear OP,

There is often a great deal of confusion regarding your posts.

Your communication style is very unusual and exacerbated when you withhold (for what you believe are good reasons) pertinent information. But, even when you are not withholding info, your posts are generally obtuse.

It may help your readers to understand you better if we knew what your first language is.

Thank you.

LOL, it is English! 

I like a pedantic and erudite style. It's just a style thing. Not intended to be snobbish. My learning has taught me to utilize the words so that they don't become vestigial skill! There I go again! :-)

Thank you for pointing that out--that there is a great deal of confusion.
Mea culpa. As a communicator--I take responsibility for conveying message.

Just made a call to healthcare attorney at GrayRobinson and left message for him.

There is safety in a multitude of counselors.

Current synopsis:
I outlined the case (just the outline) and said that the best I can come up with now is for the victim to seek medical care in a model's mandatory-reporting state yet gracefully decline to disclose the people who were the proximate cause of the injuries.
* This sounds so simple, yet how does it play out in real life?
* How can he/she be assured that he/she isn't badgered and interrogated?

Is my synopsis simple enough?

Attorney usually calls back in a timely manner and since this is non billable, I do not expect priority service.

Part of the reason for my undertaking this is to:
* help the victim,
* learn about what others go thru,
* help others who may also be victims or become victims who don't want to make public disclosures, or who are in situations where they are not allowed to reach out for help,
* help understand and interpret public policy,
* raise the level of debate,
* etc. ad nauseam. [I think that last term is Latin].

It is NOT intended to share anyone's details.

You're welcome.

FFantastique wrote:
I like a pedantic and erudite style. It's just a style thing. Not intended to be snobbish. My learning has taught me to utilize the words so that they don't become vestigial skill! There I go again! :-)

To be blunt, you don't do this very well, and it results in a great deal of confusion. I understand the habit, however, and the best advice I can give you is to edit yourself severely. Write something, sit down and read it, see where people could get confused, rewrite those sections, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.

As for the situation you've been very careful about not describing, yes, you are in a position where in some sense you are going to impose your idea of a good choice on someone else. This is not the evil thing that you seem to think it is. There are many circumstances where someone is unable to make a reasoned determination on their own concerning which of several alternatives is a good course of action. Domestic violence is often one of those situations: on their own, the victims won't take action in their own defense, or they will wait until they just don't care any more, strike back, and someone often dies as a result.

FFantastique wrote:
A non MM friend who has a very attractive young daughter advised me to suggest that the perpetrator's family pay for the medical bills!

Once the bills are settled, THEN the offender should be reported to law enforcement.

FFantastique wrote:
"has been physically attacked and self reports that medical attention is needed."

How does this person obtain the medical attention they need without causing an investigation that might get the perp evicted?

1 - Um - somebody has been injured enough to require medical attention.

2 - worried perp will get evicted.

Injury requiring medical attention Versus - Eviction

Not in the same ballpark..

Not the same league

Not even on the same freaking planet.

Sounds like a boyfriend beats up girlfriend and the lease is in his name.

If you are not kin to either - you have no reason to be out here, being all cryptic - asking half questions of the vaguest possible nature.  If you want quality advice - you can't expect to receive it with vague and ever shifting scenarios.

If you are in it - seek legal counsel

If not - you can only bring yourself grief white knighting from a distance.

FFantastique wrote:
I have been extremely circumspect in avoiding disclosing personal details. To the best of my knowledge, I have not disclosed, gender, state, age, race, details of the situation, etc.

I do that because we as a community can be helpful in providing insight into this particular case and also raise awareness for others who may be in similar situations but dare not disclose.

You could very easily give an overview of what went down without disclosing gender, state, age, race, etc. or giving any clues about the vic. You make it virtually impossible to offer any meaningful suggestions when no one really knows what the situation is, for example: Is it the vic or the perp at risk for deportation? This is important because you earlier comment suggest that one of the parties is either an illegal alien or holds a green card (which could, in theory, be revoked   although it rarely happens unless the holder committed fraud to get it or engages in some serious criminal activity). It would also suggest how best to get medical help under the radar (as it were).

Is there a marital relationship? If so, and the abused vic has a green card, there are federal laws protecting them from automatic deportation should the vic decide to dissolve that relationship. 

Also, you offer nothing about the extent of the vic's physical injuries except to say that medical intervention is required. I have no medical training but I would hazard an uneducated guess that serious injuries, left untreated, could very possibly lead to life-long disabilities or even death. If the vic is good with this there is not much anyone can do. Since the vic appears content to forgo medical treatment in favor of anonymity, it suggests that the injuries are not very very serious at all, or that the vic is down with risking their health and possibly life. Again, not much anyone can do the help them. They become the engines of their own destruction. Have you even researched the vic's injuries in relation to the reporting laws where they reside? It may be a moot point.

You say the vic's hands are not exactly clean either. Without knowing how so it really means zip. The vic's hands being "dirty" in some cases might actually be helpful; it depends.

You say the relationship between you and the vic is professional and yet seem to be investing an amazing amount of time calling various agencies. See the problem here?

You also acknowledge that you have no experience in this type of situation. Assuming for the heck of it that your story is true, then while your intentions might be good, following your advice could prove fatal.

And finally, your posts have all of the hallmarks of the typical hoax email (OMG, the sky is falling while offering no evidence that such is indeed the case).

Frankly, I do not believe a word that you have said. I've been told that makes me a dickhead. I'm fine with that.

Have a great day!

FFantastique wrote:
How does this person obtain the medical attention they need without causing an investigation that might get the perp evicted?--which is deemed undesirable!

Law enforcement has ways of finding out what happened even if the victim refuses to talk or convienantly forgets what happens, same goes for prosecuting if there's enough evidence collected. Cases where a battered spouse immediately comes to mind, though is hardly the only one.

I'd reccommend having your "friend" go to the hospital or some other medical care facility because ya, she may not want have anything happen to her (presumably) abuser but is it really worth not getting potential injuries checked out?