Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
For example you go in for a trim and the stylist cut way too much hair off and the haircut was just awful and you lost a part (job) as an actor/model due to the bad haircut. You told the stylist how you were disappointed in their services express how much you hated it at the shop and they still charged you and said there is nothing else they can do. You have witnesses other stylists there who had to jump in at the end of the cut to fix the stylist's mistake the best way they possibly could but the hair was already gone and there was nothing else they could do and where only able to try to save the little bit that was left. You have email and documentation from the client and agent letting you know of a direct booking that you lost due to the bad haircut. This will also cost the talent future bookings until the hair grows back which could take months. We also have to make new headshots and comp-cards printed as well since he doesn't look like his headshot due to the hair. With this information in your opinion do you believe I would have reasonable cause to sue for damages? Talents hair when we walked into the shop ![https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10624996_10204621359363129_6180182465036102745_n.jpg?oh=f1dea8f461f297c1950e941505fc4106&oe=54CD328B]() Haircut we asked for even showed him this very same photo. ![https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/q83/s960x960/1397842_633967020018278_7446219202839883428_o.jpg]() Haircut we walked out with ![https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10712698_706414102773569_2087217666145206398_n.jpg?oh=a84fb8d0a65917b780a8a21cdaa57def&oe=54C2792A&__gda__=1417925836_493094f11f19a4745951cbce6f5ff92c]()
Photographer
Lallure Photographic
Posts: 2086
Taylors, South Carolina, US
You can sue for almost anything......winning, is of course, the hard part.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Lallure Photographic wrote:
You can sue for almost anything......winning, is of course, the hard part. In your opinion do you think it would be considered a frivolous case?
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3622
Alberschwende, Vorarlberg, Austria
I remember watching Oprah about 20 years ago when she got into this subject. She talked to a woman from the UK who in fact did sue her salon and won. Apparently it was a worlds first. History in the UK doesn't mean that it would work in the US, but I'm sure uncle Google can tell you.
Makeup Artist
ArtistryImage
Posts: 3091
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Seeking legal consul on an Internet Forum? Angie thought you knew better that this... Some of your post are absolutely sterling... this possibly might not be one of them... Ranting is something I would expect to hobbyist do, not a commercial talent...
To all Stylist, Artist etc... If you think you don't need professional liability insurance, think again... there is no keeping a hungry attorney from going after your house...
Photographer
Seismic Images
Posts: 525
Morisset, New South Wales, Australia
Its a haircut. Get a grip on life.
Photographer
Don Garrett
Posts: 4984
Escondido, California, US
I asked a lawyer if the one with the most money always "won" the case, and he said, YES ! The question was pertinent to the case we were involved in, but applied to all legal situations, (at least here in California).
-Don
EDIT: What I am saying, (in case it is necessary for someone), is that "rightness" can be bought.
Photographer
Daniel Leon
Posts: 1389
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
What a ridiculous mindset.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Daniel Leon wrote:
What a ridiculous mindset. So he lost out on a $3K dollar direct booking because a stylist made a mistake. It made us look really bad to the client do you think that is ridiculous? Not only does it affect him and me but also the agent. His agent was not very happy about the situation.
This is a legitimate question for a forum that is about looks and modeling.
The question pertains to the modeling industry.
As a model/actor your look is all you have and one simple mistake can ruin it for you.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
ArtistryImage wrote:
Seeking legal consul on an Internet Forum? Angie thought you knew better that this... Some of your post are absolutely sterling... this possibly might not be one of them... Ranting is something I would expect to hobbyist do, not a commercial talent...
To all Stylist, Artist etc... If you think you don't need professional liability insurance, think again... there is no keeping a hungry attorney from going after your house... Is not a rant is a serious question. I do have the money to hire an attorney but before I do I wanted to hear if there have been cases like this one before. Not legal counsel. I am asking for opinions, past experiences anything.
He got a direct booking of his headshot, we went in for a trim to match his headshot because his hair had grown out a bit so we can go do the job he was requested for and he walks out looking entirely different. Not only is it embarrassing for us to show up looking different than the headshot but were dropped from the job once I contacted the agent about the situation. They contacted the client and decided to go with someone else because we no longer match what they were looking for.
As a stylist you need to understand that if you make a mistake and are unable to correct it that there are consequences it is a domino effect. If it was just a case of simple bad haircut and he did not work based on his looks I could care less I would just let it grow out. But if someones mistake puts a damp into someone's bussiness wouldn't you find someone to pay for the damages.
The money comes out of my pocket to fix the stylist mistake. Why should it?
The stylist knew he made a mistake that another stylist saw what he was doing told him to stop and stepped in to try to fix it and told him that he messed up. So is not a case of me trying to get away with a free haircut or anything like that. I'm not trying to take advantage of these stylist but his mistake cost me $.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Seismic Images wrote:
Its a haircut. Get a grip on life. When you make your living out of your looks a simple haircut is the determining factor wether you are successful or not.
For example you send your camera in for a cleaning and they give you back a broken camera that no longer works. Now you can't shoot or do the jobs you had lined up unless you rent one or buy a new one. Do you think you should be responsible to pay for another person's mistake?
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3622
Alberschwende, Vorarlberg, Austria
A-M-P wrote:
When you make your living out of your looks a simple haircut is the determining factor wether you are successful or not. I suspect people here understand neither business nor the modelling world.
Model
Delia Mak
Posts: 200
New York, New York, US
May I ask a few questions?
- Was the previous stylist same last time he/she gave this perfect haircut?
- If it was a new stylist, have you ever showed her/him the picture that you wanted this perfect haircut for your son?
- Were you monitoring the new stylist the entire time?
- As it began wrong, were you recording the session for evidence?
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
You can sue anybody for any reason.
Are you likely to win or lose the case?
That's a question beat left to a lawyer to answer.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
What do you expect to achieve by suing? Sounds like you've already decided not to come back to that salon. Do you expect a refund?
Here's what will happen if you sue:
... Your lawyer will get paid. A lot. A big lot.
... Their lawyer will get paid. A big lot, too.
... The case will take months, if not years, to resolve.
... You might win, but you will likely not recover enough to pay your
lawyer & other expenses.
... While you are dealing with the suit, you will miss work.
... Their lawyer will say very not-nice things about you.
... You will get worked up into a snit.
... You will lose sleep.
... You will tug on the coats of strangers to tell your sad story (for
example, you'll start a "Should I sue" thread on MM).
... You might lose.
... You might lose big, meaning you'll have to pay the salon to cover
their (inflated) legal expenses.
In short, you'll not likely get the satisfaction you want.
But, can you sue? Absolutely. Can you go to small claims court without a lawyer? Sure. But sorry -- my prediction is that you will not be satisfied with your experience with a court proceeding.
Photographer
PANHEAD PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 1648
San Francisco, California, US
Wow that's a really bad haircut
Anything under $5000 would be a small claims courtsubmit your case to one of those TV court shows
Even if you don't win it'll be great publicity
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Why do people think there will be layers involved in small claims court? This is rarely the case.
Model
Kyle-James
Posts: 2
JOHNS ISLAND, South Carolina, US
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3622
Alberschwende, Vorarlberg, Austria
Model
Model MoRina
Posts: 6638
MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica
Anyone can sue over anything, but I would consider a couple things:
His headshot got him the job, but you said he didn't currently look like his headshot. So, there's some misrepresentation on your part.
You think you are owed money for this one job lost, are you also willing to give back the income he earns with the new haircut?
Who gave him the last haircut, and why didn't you use the same stylist if this was so important?
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
I think you have cause and can prove damages.
If someone's incompetence caused me a loss of income of $3K (at the very least, you could probably make a case for lost future earnings), I'd take them to court.
Photographer
Daniel Leon
Posts: 1389
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
A-M-P wrote:
So he lost out on a $3K dollar direct booking because a stylist made a mistake. It made us look really bad to the client do you think that is ridiculous? Not only does it affect him and me but also the agent. His agent was not very happy about the situation.
This is a legitimate question for a forum that is about looks and modeling.
The question pertains to the modeling industry.
As a model/actor your look is all you have and one simple mistake can ruin it for you. People make mistakes at work all the time, nobody should have to go to work with the thought that if they make a mistake they're going to be taken to court that's just plain stupid. If this booking was so important and provided considerable income and future opportunities, you would think you would not take any chances and make sure you got the haircut done by someone reliable.
Your mindset remains petty.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
MoRina wrote:
Anyone can sue over anything, but I would consider a couple things:
His headshot got him the job, but you said he didn't currently look like his headshot. So, there's some misrepresentation on your part.
You think you are owed money for this one job lost, are you also willing to give back the income he earns with the new haircut?
Who gave him the last haircut, and why didn't you use the same stylist if this was so important? The hair just grew out a bit you can see from his headshot you do understand you have to keep going back to the salon to maintain a style right?
We have been going back every 8 weeks to the same salon for the last 3 years.
The stylist we always use was not available because he was away vacation/personal time. We use the same salon all the time this time only that stylist was available.
That is a big IF he earns any money with the new haircut, The agent is kind of pissed because she feels is not the right look for him or to market him.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Daniel Leon wrote:
People make mistakes at work all the time, nobody should have to go to work with the thought that if they make a mistake they're going to be taken to court that's just plain stupid. If this booking was so important and provided considerable income and future opportunities, you would think you would not take any chances and make sure you got the haircut done by someone reliable.
Your mindset remains petty. +1
how would a photographer feel if every client sued over every little thing?
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Daniel Leon wrote:
People make mistakes at work all the time, nobody should have to go to work with the thought that if they make a mistake they're going to be taken to court that's just plain stupid. If this booking was so important and provided considerable income and future opportunities, you would think you would not take any chances and make sure you got the haircut done by someone reliable.
Your mindset remains petty. Ok so if you make a mistake you should never be held accountable. Really nice thinking. The stylist knew he fucked up all the other stylists there also knew he messed up. If they thought he didn't they wouldn't have stepped in and stopped him from what he was doing and had someone else finish it.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
+1
how would a photographer feel if every client sued over every little thing? If I as a photographer don't deliver for example I mess up or lose all the images then I have no problem getting sued for damages that might cost my client. That is why I have insurance for.
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
Since an attorney isn't going to charge you anything to evaluate the merits of your case, I'd do that.
However, where generally I'd say no - for a model, a bad haircut could theoretically cause monetary injury in loss of work, so maybe...
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Daniel Leon wrote:
People make mistakes at work all the time, nobody should have to go to work with the thought that if they make a mistake they're going to be taken to court that's just plain stupid. If this booking was so important and provided considerable income and future opportunities, you would think you would not take any chances and make sure you got the haircut done by someone reliable.
Your mindset remains petty. This was professional salon how am I supposed to know if a stylist is reliable or not without them working on me. Please tell me. We had been going to this same salon but the usual stylist was not available. When your job is offering semi permanent/ permanent services you better believe you need to be very careful in delivering what was asked of you.
I showed photos and even another stylist explain to him how to do it and he still did not deliver.
Honestly if he was not a model/actor I could give a rats ass about the bad cut and just let it grow out. But due to this mistake the agent has asked me to get new headshots and comp-cards printed that I have to pay for. That means that his mistake is costing me money. It was not my decision nor the agents to change his look but due to a mistake I lost a booking and have to go buy new marketing materials.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
AJ_In_Atlanta wrote:
Why do people think there will be layers involved in small claims court? This is rarely the case. Yes I am talking about small claims.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
A-M-P wrote:
If I as a photographer don't deliver then I have no problem getting sued. That is why I have insurance for. so people with fire insurance should have no problem with someone coming to their place of business and setting it on fire because that's what fire insurance is for?
hardly...
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
so people with fire insurance should have no problem with someone coming to their place of business and setting it on fire because that's what fire insurance is for?
hardly... Your post hardly compares to what I am saying.
If I loose all the images from a wedding or crop everyones head off for example I should get sued for not delivering what was required of me. That is a better example.
Or if I send a perfect working camera in for cleaning and I am given back a broken camera then the shop should be held accountable for the cost of replacing it.
Or do you think those mistakes should be also be given a free pass and the client should just chuck it up to a bad experience and move on?
So pretty much you are saying a stylist should never be held accountable if they make a mistake are negligent or careless. They can just do whatever they feel like it with no consequences.
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3622
Alberschwende, Vorarlberg, Austria
L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
so people with fire insurance should have no problem with someone coming to their place of business and setting it on fire because that's what fire insurance is for?
hardly... Congratulations for the dumbest analogy this century.
Photographer
DarkSlide
Posts: 2353
Alexandria, Virginia, US
The hair style is important to the child and you for money making reasons.
You were with the chid at the salon.
Did you monitor the haircut as it was happening?
If so, why didn't you intervene?
If not, it must not be that important to you.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
A-M-P wrote:
Your post hardly compares to what I am saying.
If I loose all the images from a wedding or crop everyones head off for example I should get sued for not delivering what was required of me. That is a better example.
Or if I send a perfect working camera in for cleaning and I am given back a broken camera then the shop should be held accountable for the cost of replacing it.
Or do you think those mistakes should be also be given a free pass and the client should just chuck it up to a bad experience and move on?
So pretty much you are saying a stylist should never be held accountable if they make a mistake are negligent or careless. They can just do whatever they feel like it with no consequences. held accountable does not have to equal suing. do you immediately sue a restaurant when your food order is incorrect?
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
Justin Foto wrote:
Congratulations for the dumbest analogy this century. it could exist no other way.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
DarkSlide wrote:
The hair style is important to the child and you for money making reasons.
You were with the chid at the salon.
Did you monitor the haircut as it was happening?
If so, why didn't you intervene?
If not, it must not be that important to you. I did intervene. I intervene several times during the haircut. So much that someone else had to step in and fix it.
He kept telling me don't worry it won't look like that it will look good. I'm just cutting this short for the bang area only. I had no idea what he was doing since he was holding the hair upwards the same way when they cut layers. I even pointed with my finger how long I wanted it but he kept layering. Honestly the only thing left for me to do was to take the scissors of his hand myself. The other stylist even went up and told him to stop you are doing it wrong she apologized and said I will try to fix it. The other stylist fixed it the best she could but it was too late too much hair had been taken off from the guy doing the layering. She said all she could do was even it out as much as possible because it was uneven. Trust me the guy knew through out the whole thing my objections but he kept reassuring me that it was going to come out fine and since he is the professional I trusted him but whatever.
Thanks everyone for your opinions even the ones I don;t agree with, the ones attacking my character and the ones I agree with. Thanks for your time and for contributing your opinion.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
L A U B E N H E I M E R wrote:
held accountable does not have to equal suing. do you immediately sue a restaurant when your food order is incorrect? Food can be fixed right away hair can't.
I have no problem sending the salon a letter asking for them to pay the cost of the new cards I have to get printed heck I won't even care about the booking he lost but I seriously doubt they would cooperate.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
DarkSlide wrote:
The hair style is important to the child and you for money making reasons.
You were with the chid at the salon.
Did you monitor the haircut as it was happening?
If so, why didn't you intervene?
If not, it must not be that important to you. if i had $3000 on the line i would monitor that $3000.....especially when it's only a simple haircut lasting probably no more than an hour.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
A-M-P wrote:
Yes I am talking about small claims. Exactly, no expensive lawyers.
The issue would be exactly how do you prove any loss beyond the cost of the styling? Unless you have actual client testimony or the like saying they didn't hire him because of his hair you are going to have an issue. A judge can't award anything without some basis and proof, that burden is on you. The salon doesn't need to do anything or prove anything really.
Photographer
Laubenheimer
Posts: 9317
New York, New York, US
A-M-P wrote:
Food can be fixed right away hair can't.
I have no problem sending the salon a letter asking for them to pay the cost of the new cards I have to get printed heck I won't even care about the booking he lost but I seriously doubt they would cooperate. exactly! what you do with your haircut is none of their business. so why sue them over something that is none of their business?
as others have said, the burden is on you.
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