Amandageddon wrote:
So I've shot with a certain photographer twice before, and was paid both times although pay was not ever mentioned (I had thought they were both TF shoots).

I may be reading into things too much, but I FEEL like he wasn't too keen on paying me last time even though he did.

We're working on booking another shoot right now, and my question is whether or not I should say that I AM totally okay with working TF. He is, IMO, definitely a better photographer than I am a model and I consider photos I get from our shoots to be payment enough since they are good enough to replace something in my portfolio.

However, I DO like paid work... but I feel like 'let come what may' is probably a bad philosophy if I want to keep a good working relationship with him. Some people say they 'feel better' paying their models but I don't want there to be a feeling of obligation if payment wasn't ever agreed upon previously.

Well, this is interesting.  I would let him know that you are wowed by his work of you.  And that you appreciate that he paid you, though you weren't entirely expecting to be paid.  And then offer to work TF for the next shoot.

I am sure that he will be appreciative and further enhance your professional relationship

Amandageddon wrote:
... I did let him know that I would be totally okay with working TF

Wisdom... you likely have just paid he a wonderful compliment on his skill and expertise... btw, what goes around comes around... there are very few exceptions here...

All the best on your journey...

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Well, this is interesting.  I would let him know that you are wowed by his work of you.  And that you appreciate that he paid you, though you weren't entirely expecting to be paid.  And then offer to work TF for the next shoot.

I am sure that he will be appreciative and further enhance your professional relationship

^^^ this - couldn't say it any better..

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Well, this is interesting.  I would let him know that you are wowed by his work of you.  And that you appreciate that he paid you, though you weren't entirely expecting to be paid.  And then offer to work TF for the next shoot.

I am sure that he will be appreciative and further enhance your professional relationship

Bingo! but I would add a thought.  Reading through the forums a lot of photographers tend to be a bit paternalistic toward models and feel that it's unethical to shoot them without cash payment.  A lot of models who would not otherwise be paid take advantage of this.  I call it "Pity Pay"  It's roughly comparable to some models thinking they have to shoot nudes and some photographers feeling that they are entitled to shoot nudes.  Both assumptions are false and are harmful to the process and the general relationships between photographers and models, I think.

In my opinion it's best for the parties to broach the subject and discuss it in a straight-forward manner, seeking an agreement that is both fair to both parties and with which both parties feel comfortable.  There is no magic number that will do both.  If he really feels that he must pay you and you really feel that he shouldn't (for whatever reasons) and between yourselves you can't reach a number with which you're both comfortable, then a solution might be for him to contribute whatever he feels is appropriate to a charity that you both support. 

It sounds like the two of you have a terrific relationship going.  It would be terrible to jeopardize it over such a small thing.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Which is more important to you ?
Good Images
$$$$

Why not both?  Why not a limited number of images and a reduced modeling fee?

To the OP:  Regardless of your preference, it is your obligation, as a participant in this agreement, to ensure that the terms of the agreement are discussed & agreed upon.  Talk to your photographer. 

If you are unsure, just ask him to clarify his expectations -- let him state his intentions first.

But if you don't discuss something as important as compensation, you will have to accept what you get after the fact, and if what you get after the fact is not satisfying to you, we'll be discussing this on your next forum thread.

ontherocks wrote:
some photographers prefer to pay so they don't have to worry about delivering images.

at the next shoot when he pulls out his wallet maybe you could say "that's not necessary. these photos are useful for my portfolio" and let him decide.

also, if a man continues giving you money beyond what was necessary there's a chance he's interested in more than just working together.

Do we have some transference going on here? Because that can easily be a crock of shit.

I put value on what I get in return, & I've done exactly that....cough up some $$$ that was supposed to be TF due to value received from their efforts. I've probably done that at least a half dozen times.

One I even gave $$ to a year after the fact when I next saw her. We've been shooting together now over 8 yrs.

ontherocks wrote:
some photographers prefer to pay so they don't have to worry about delivering images.

at the next shoot when he pulls out his wallet maybe you could say "that's not necessary. these photos are useful for my portfolio" and let him decide.

also, if a man continues giving you money beyond what was necessary there's a chance he's interested in more than just working together.

Mkay?

Rays Fine Art wrote:

Bingo! but I would add a thought.  Reading through the forums a lot of photographers tend to be a bit paternalistic toward models and feel that it's unethical to shoot them without cash payment.  A lot of models who would not otherwise be paid take advantage of this.  I call it "Pity Pay"  It's roughly comparable to some models thinking they have to shoot nudes and some photographers feeling that they are entitled to shoot nudes.  Both assumptions are false and are harmful to the process and the general relationships between photographers and models, I think.

In my opinion it's best for the parties to broach the subject and discuss it in a straight-forward manner, seeking an agreement that is both fair to both parties and with which both parties feel comfortable.  There is no magic number that will do both.  If he really feels that he must pay you and you really feel that he shouldn't (for whatever reasons) and between yourselves you can't reach a number with which you're both comfortable, then a solution might be for him to contribute whatever he feels is appropriate to a charity that you both support. 

It sounds like the two of you have a terrific relationship going.  It would be terrible to jeopardize it over such a small thing.

All IMHO as always, of course.

We don't always agree, but in this case...spot on.

ontherocks wrote:
also, if a man continues giving you money beyond what was necessary there's a chance he's interested in more than just working together.

there's also a chance that, out of a sense of fairness, he is compensating value received that exceeded original expectations

Amandageddon wrote:
So I've shot with a certain photographer twice before, and was paid both times although pay was not ever mentioned (I had thought they were both TF shoots).

I may be reading into things too much, but I FEEL like he wasn't too keen on paying me last time even though he did.

We're working on booking another shoot right now, and my question is whether or not I should say that I AM totally okay with working TF. He is, IMO, definitely a better photographer than I am a model and I consider photos I get from our shoots to be payment enough since they are good enough to replace something in my portfolio.

...I don't want there to be a feeling of obligation if payment wasn't ever agreed upon previously.

What the hay now? You are shooting with someone and never discussed the terms and let him pay you even though you never discussed terms?

I'd think it was unethical to accept his payment when you hadn't agreed to pay and you thought is was tf both times.

Why not just message him and clear this up. Say something truthful like, "Hey, I never expected payment but was grateful for it and accepted it, x2.  I like your work and am willing to shoot tf with you because I like what we are doing and I want to keep doing it."

Truth is good, ambiguity is not, (in my opinion.)

Best!
Jen

Rays Fine Art wrote:
... Reading through the forums a lot of photographers tend to be a bit paternalistic toward models and feel that it's unethical to shoot them without cash payment. ...

As a trade only model I've run into this. I agree with you that fully discussing and agreeing ahead of time is the best way to go.

Jen

ontherocks wrote:
some photographers prefer to pay so they don't have to worry about delivering images.

at the next shoot when he pulls out his wallet maybe you could say "that's not necessary. these photos are useful for my portfolio" and let him decide.

also, if a man continues giving you money beyond what was necessary there's a chance he's interested in more than just working together.

I think it needs to be determined before the shoot.
Jen

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
You seem undecided ?
Which is more important to you ?
Good Images
$$$$
If you decide images, next time he offers to pay tell him its not necessary unless he wants to.
Pressure is off he can do what he feels comfortable with and you can continue to work together.

Just want to point out of were questioning ethics(which are never black and white btw), that usually when someone offers you money you weren't expecting, the proper etiquette is to not take it unless insisted upon and let them know that isn't necessary.

Shrug, maybe just how I was raised.

ontherocks wrote:
... also, if a man continues giving you money beyond what was necessary there's a chance he's interested in more than just working together.

Best just to speak for yourself.

Most models are young and broke.
Many photographers are neither young nor broke.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Well, this is interesting.  I would let him know that you are wowed by his work of you.  And that you appreciate that he paid you, though you weren't entirely expecting to be paid.  And then offer to work TF for the next shoot.

I am sure that he will be appreciative and further enhance your professional relationship

Well said. I'd agree 100%.

Amandageddon wrote:
So I've shot with a certain photographer twice before, and was paid both times although pay was not ever mentioned (I had thought they were both TF shoots).

I may be reading into things too much, but I FEEL like he wasn't too keen on paying me last time even though he did.

We're working on booking another shoot right now, and my question is whether or not I should say that I AM totally okay with working TF. He is, IMO, definitely a better photographer than I am a model and I consider photos I get from our shoots to be payment enough since they are good enough to replace something in my portfolio.

However, I DO like paid work... but I feel like 'let come what may' is probably a bad philosophy if I want to keep a good working relationship with him. Some people say they 'feel better' paying their models but I don't want there to be a feeling of obligation if payment wasn't ever agreed upon previously.

Wow, You are one in a million. 

Direct and open communication are the best.  Let the photographer knows how you feel that you are willing to do trade or reduce rate.  Next time he will work harder for you and better your portfolio further.  All these will contribute a great success in your modeling career.  Paying forward will always win. 

Good luck.