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why is it so hard to find a reliable model?
I've been using model mayhem now for 2 years and I've had the absolute worst luck with finding reliable models. I've had more models back out then I've had that have followed through. I'm a very nice, fun, outgoing photographer. My ideas are solid, I have an excellent history with the models that have stuck around and I think my photos speak for themselves. I can't afford to pay for models cause i'm physically disabled and am just doing this more or less for a hobby, but i don't think pay should matter, but I could be wrong. I guess money talks and holds commitments. If any other photographers could offer some tips, I'd greatly appreciate it. Dec 13 14 05:56 pm Link Sometimes even money won't make a difference. What matters is communication; frequency and details. Dec 13 14 06:11 pm Link Do you check their references? Dec 13 14 06:19 pm Link i had to pay, at least at first. especially for nudes. overall i've had the most luck with traveling models (whether i pay them or not) and with zivity models. local mayhem models can be hit or miss. does your area have group shoots? let someone else take care of getting the models. Dec 13 14 07:35 pm Link There is an interesting phenomenon where people like to get paid for doing their job, especially professionals (some may say that getting paid for doing their job is even what makes them professionals.) Others say, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and if you're only trying to work with people for free, you might end up getting exactly what you paid for. Dec 13 14 07:44 pm Link I find it hard whether you pay them or not. I have had more flakes this year than ever and the shoots were paid. Getting established certainly helps and becoming known makes for better contacts, but does not guarantee models will show up. Dec 13 14 07:57 pm Link There is also the point that typically older photographers should not be totally surprised that younger models who all too often have to worry about where the money for the next rent check or even the next meal is going to come from are not overly enthusiastic about free contributions to other people's hobbies. To the extent that its a trade that helps them make more money going forward, it is reasonable, but sometimes reason like that goes out the window when the rent is pending or overdue. Dec 13 14 08:12 pm Link Things that have helped me: I realize that many "models" who fill out modeling profiles either never really cared about modeling, or loose interest quickly. This means that while there may be more model profiles, the reality is there are more photographers chasing fewer models here. Models have the supply and demand advantage. I realize MM is a glorified chat room. In contrast to a modeling agency, MM doesn't really care if models and photographers really shoot. I don't waste my time on models who are unlikely to follow though. If a model doesn't respond, drops communication, has crazy demands, etc. I move on. This doesn't mean more shoots, but it means wasting less time on shoots that have little potential. I look elsewhere. As mentioned above, despite the name MM has no real incentive to line up photographers with models. I have much better luck on craigslist than MM. Other photographers have good luck with Facebook. If you want advice about how your portfolio and profile may be affecting your odds of getting models, ask in the critique forum. People are not allowed to give such feedback here. Dec 13 14 09:02 pm Link Jannusch Photography wrote: My two suggestions are: Dec 13 14 11:04 pm Link It's like all things in life... The first question anyone asks is "What's in it for me?" even if it's at a subconscious level. When dealing with highly attractive females in general unless you have something they want good luck hearing back from them... Does not matter if it's on a personal level or business situation. If a woman wants something from you, being photos, connections, Advice, sex, a relationship or what ever you can't keep her away. But if she does not want anything from you she will never have time for you and there will always be an excuse or more likely they will not even respond. The reason I mentioned personal relationships/sex is because in my experience many, many models treat modeling exactly like dating. In fact I had a model that I shot with tell me "If you had called me too soon after we met I would not have shot with you." I was like WTF, this is not a date, this is art and business. Also many people are only as loyal their options so if they have a shoot with you and a better deal comes along or something more exciting in their life or they just don't feel like it they will often blow your shoot off (If they are professional, and have a good work ethic they will not do that as word will get around and it will hurt them in the long run.) They even do it when they have paid you for a shoot! I now get either paid 100% up front or 50% non-refundable deposits from clients especially attractive women. The last one that I got a 50% deposit from made me free money because she flaked out. I even tired to give her a second chance and it's not like she's too far away because when we last spoke she had moved into the complex where I live! LOL Sad to say but 90% of attractive women are like that in my experience. So what you are offering has to be something they want and the more they want it and see value in it the more likely the are to follow through. But still even then and when they pay they flake sometimes. So here are the factors in a shoot they look at: * How much money do they get? * Do I like the photographers work and want images by this person floating around out there or in my port? * Do I like the photographers personality? * Do I feel safe with this person? * How far away is it and is it worth the traveling? * Do I like the concept? * Is this going to be fun? * Is this going to be beneficial to me or detrimental to me? The the better you score in each of those the more likely they are to show up. But even then some people are total flakes and also have all kinds of drama in their lives. I find models on here pretty easily and also in person. However Facebook does not work for me for finding models. But if I meet them in person and they happen to be on my FB they often change their mind and want to shoot. Models that want to shoot with me TF I also often hook up with paid gigs over models that are coming just for the money. That's my 2 cents. PS: Money goes along way to increase reliability. I'm have been paying models $400 for shoots for a client who is footing the bill and I have not had any booked models not show. But many flake out during the screening/booking process. Dec 13 14 11:59 pm Link You need to give models something they value superior photography , cash or both Dec 14 14 02:06 am Link Jannusch Photography wrote: 1) Have you tried any casting calls or have you been reaching out to models directly? Dec 14 14 03:03 am Link $$$ does not equal more reliable Ask anybody that manages a staff Dec 14 14 03:38 am Link Jannusch Photography wrote: To motivate any model to commit to your TFx shoot you need 2 things Dec 14 14 05:34 am Link You are totally wrong. The models simply want the cash. They aren't interested in the photos at all. They couldn't care less about the quality of their pics, as long as they make money. That's especially true of any doing any degree of nudity whatsoever. Dec 14 14 06:13 am Link Lallure Photographic wrote: tell that to the 100 plus models I have traded with Dec 14 14 09:04 am Link They don't even want cash. Dec 14 14 10:25 am Link Jannusch Photography wrote: 90% of the "models" on M/M are virtually worthless. They have no intention of ever doing the actual work it takes to shoot. The other 10% are wonderful. The trick is finding them. Dec 14 14 11:20 am Link Not necessarily directed at the OP, but generally applicable to photographers struggling with obtaining models (assuming they're in a location that has models). Get better - with exceptions, even if being paid (good models), want to be represented well in their images. Improving is the best way to provide that. Post in critique. Dec 14 14 11:33 am Link I asked a past model why she worked with me. She said I thought you were funny and she wasn't working at the moment. Your work in many cases doesn't matter. Money can help but not always. Personality, youth and location all play a factor. Bottom line its largely NEVER about what you do or your photos not on sites like this. People mostly do what is important to them and that can change from day to day. I've had models write and call me claiming to be ready to shoot and never show. Others follow up hours after emailing me. My experience has been that models serious about shooting will provide a contact number right away. Those who take weeks to return a email aren't likely to show. Study their photos. Models who rarely update may not show. When you speak to them are they excited and engaged or bored. Listen carefully to their tone. Also understand that many of the models we want to shoot are young and not always reliable or professional. Don't make what they do personal. Dec 14 14 11:33 am Link OP - you need to sweeten the pot. Try offering more - more money, more TF pics, more swag Try offering less - less time to delivery of TF pics, less (or no) watermarks on the pics. Now you need to carefully look at how you are offering all this 'more' and 'less'. Does your communication sound like a scam? Does your communication sound like a creepy guy? Are you coming off like a demanding person? Work on your wording - make it sound like the model you are writing to is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you will do almost anything to get this model to work with you. Keep your word and perform 'one better' than you say you will! If you say 7 days for the TF pics - send them to her in 5 or 6. If you say she will receive 5 pics, send 7. If you pay the model, give her some extra money at the end of the shoot because she was such a good model. Models talk to each other - good news travels fast... but bad news travels faster. Dec 14 14 12:04 pm Link FWIW when I started, I was just delighted to get anyone to show up--while I've always shot nudes, at first it was probably about 3 to 1 clothed vs. nudes. The balance has evened out as I developed a measure of skill and a quantity of work that would actually be of benefit to the model. That was, frankly, as much a matter of communication as anything, and I mean by that two-way communication. I actually listened to the models to find out what they wanted for their portfolios and what they did not want. I've always held pre-shoot meetings whenever and however possible and always, always confirmed a planned shoot with a PM outlining date, time, place, genres and personal boundaries. And I've always tried to have the broadest possible range of genres and styles in my portfolio. I've never used watermark or crowded images into collages in order to get more images into a limited portfolio space. In other words, I've always tried to let the model know just what she could expect for her efforts. I've never paid a model other than with pictures but I'm very generous in what I give them both in terms of the number of pictures and willingness to shoot special requests to the best of my ability. I've never charged a model either. Again, I'm totally upfront in that I expect both the model and me to benefit about equally from our time together. As I say, it's mostly a matter of communication. I rarely have anyone flake on a shoot. If they're going to flake it's usually at the meeting, which costs me far less frustration than having them do so for a shoot. Granted, I live in New York, where cheap, dependable transportation and literally thousands of models are readily available. I don't know how useful this approach might be in other areas. But if I'm doing anything you're not doing, it might be worth giving that something a try. All IMHO as always, of course. Dec 14 14 07:25 pm Link Lallure Photographic wrote: Really? I agree that there is no shortage of such models, but I have had plenty of models, especially those doing underwater shoots, who have shot TF. Dec 14 14 08:40 pm Link Interesting OP/rant... Personally I have NEVER had issues finding reliable models through MM. Maybe thats because I do my homework and know what I'm looking for in a model. Dec 14 14 09:22 pm Link Lallure Photographic wrote: How many models have you shot? Dec 14 14 10:51 pm Link nvrmind.... Dec 15 14 06:00 am Link Cherrystone wrote: I wonder if perhaps you might have conveyed your sentiments in a more civilized manner. We are, after all, a community of creatives respectful of other creatives. Such disrespectful responses are generally seen as a sign that the person making them really has no idea what he's talking about and can only serve to limit one's opportunities to participate in the forums. Dec 15 14 07:50 am Link i'm sure that's true for some (especially traveling models shooting with lesser photographers) but i've done TF with a model who travels and she was interested in the pictures because she was able to request what she wanted for her portfolio and it gave her fresh material for her portfolio during her traveling off-season. and also sometimes i think people just click and enjoy working together. regarding cash i will say that i've had 100% success paying traveling models. they use the money to fund their trips. one problem you can run into (although i haven't) is if they don't book enough paid shoots in advance and have to cancel their trip. Lallure Photographic wrote: Dec 15 14 08:26 am Link i think it would help people stay on point if the moderators enforced the rule against personal attacks. Rays Fine Art wrote: Dec 15 14 08:29 am Link Sorry in advance, but I'm feeling curmudgeon-y today. When you ask... why is it so hard to find a reliable model? I think you are really asking... why is it so hard to find a reliable model who will not cost me anything and who will think my images are worth having? I could be wrong, but to me, here are some clues: Jannusch Photography wrote: To me, this implies that you are looking for hobbyist models who are not known to be (and are not motivated to be) reliable. Dec 15 14 08:30 am Link Garry k wrote: This in all honesty. Dec 15 14 09:16 am Link Gotta love MM. The OP calls himself a hobbyist. Newsflash that's most of the membership including myself. He noted he can't pay. It may not be easy for him to approach women at work or when he's out but frankly that at times has been better for me then anything else. Topnotch photography is a curious thing to say about attracting reliable models when I know for a fact that several fantastic shooter have had issues with reliable models. One on MM when I joined shoots NY agency models and wanted to give back. I wrote her through her website she confessed after a few flakes she would just shoot agency faces and she's gone. MM is NOT a professional site. Its filled with hobbyists of all types and skill sets. Paying may help but not always and understand if you test with local agencies you will hear from reliable models. A member here suggests starting or joining a network of local shooters. Frankly most photographers won't share locations with other shooters much less tell you about models. Cast a wider new OP. Get on Cragislist and Facebook. I've met cool women at my old health club, bus stops, public transportation and my job. Your work doesn't have to be 'topnotch' Not sure what that even means on this site. Keep your business cards with you. Ask models you work with about their friends. Find make-up artists. They sometimes have a few models who want to shoot. Go to fashion shows. That's a great place to meet models. In February Chicago will host the Midwest Beauty Show. If you have any of the beauty shows in your area go. Beauty shows feature fantastic make-up and hair and models always want photos. You will have to get a licensed beautician to get you in but its well worth it. Most of all understand that in large part reliable and models from MM is a oxymoron. Dec 15 14 11:32 am Link Btfineart wrote: So this all assumes that photographers are older and shooting as a hobby and all models are trying to make a living at modeling. Dec 15 14 12:04 pm Link |
