Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Has anyone tried installing their own home solar system in kit form to offset their electric bills? --- There are so many companies offering to install a "nothing down" system for us, but the sales pressure is high and I feel like it's a lot of snake oil with a very serious long-term legal obligation. Solar panels are falling in price all the time, and these companies want to lock us in for something like 20 years. Further, I have to think it's in the interests of the installation company and contractor to put in the cheapest, smallest system that generates a minimal amount of power and charge us as much as they can as long as it's a few cents per kwh under what we are paying the electric company now. Then they are in a strong position to hammer us for the "balance of the contract" when we sell our house, or want to change to newer/cheaper/better technology a few years from now. ---- So, I thought, ..... this is a topic that deserves some research. ---- I want to generate as much power as I can for an optimal minimum cash outlay and maximum effect in offsetting my monthly bill from San Deigo Gas & Electric. My bill averages $200-250 per month per house. I want to buy and install everything myself, or with an electrician I hire to hook it up for me. I do not want anyone to set up liens on my house equity and I don't want obligations to anyone else if I should choose to do something else in the future. --- Costco sells home solar kits of various sizes, and I generally trust the products they sell http://www.costco.com/CatalogSearch?sto … olar+Power Does anyone have some personal experience with this?
Photographer
- Phil H -
Posts: 26552
Mildenhall, England, United Kingdom
I don't have personal experience but it is certainly something I've been looking at, as going "off grid" is something that holds a deal of appeal to me. Obviously living in different climates, our needs and consumption patterns are somewhat different and I've been considering a three pronged approach. For heating and hot water (my biggest source of energy expenditure over the course of a year), I've been looking at ground source heating. With you being in San Diego, it could be a possible solution for you to lower your electric/gas consumption for water heating. An added benefit of that, would be that any solar panel usage that might have been dedicated to heating water or home, could be utilized elsewhere or sold back to the grid. My biggest concern with solar panels, has been that both development of the technology and it's costs, have been largely static over the last decade or more. There have been developments on the research side but none of these seem to have yet trickled down to the consumer level products being offered for sale. Consequently, there are technologies out there, that are a lot more efficient than those currently being offered to the consumer by many companies. The other weak point in the solar chain, lies in the fact that unless you have a way of storing the generated energy on site, you cease to have any benefit when the sun goes down. Typically, most homes use more or even most energy in the evenings, when folks are home from work. If you've not stored the days collected energy, you're back on the grid when the sun goes down. That's where option three comes in. It seems here in the UK, small wind turbines (sufficient to cater for a single home) are becoming increasingly affordable. If you live in an area with a reliable breeze or wind, this could give you an option for generating power both day or night. If one has a stream running through your property with a reasonable fall and flow rate, water turbines also become an option. Hopefully this gives you some food for further thought. 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
^Yes, it's all good food for thought. Thank you. - Phil H - wrote:
The other weak point in the solar chain, lies in the fact that unless you have a way of storing the generated energy on site, you cease to have any benefit when the sun goes down.
Typically, most homes use more or even most energy in the evenings, when folks are home from work. If you've not stored the days collected energy, you're back on the grid when the sun goes down. I'm filtering through a lot of information right now and trying to weed out all the sales hype. I'm finding lots of good information from our local power company website. Not yet prepared to summarize ideas or possible strategies for this thread.
---
There are many things we should consider first about reducing our energy consumption by improving efficiency of energy usage and avoidance of unnecessary waste. There might be many ways we are bleeding ourselves that we are not thinking about. I'm developing my check list.
---
I'm looking at a grid-tied system of solar panels that can generate credits during the times we pump more energy back into the grid than we take from it.
- It appears to be the most common solar energy kit going in around here
- most effective at lowering or eliminating our power company bills
- eligible for tax incentives and rebates
- sells excess energy back into the grid for credits or cash payouts. I think those credits can also reduce the natural gas portion of our bill that comes from the same company.
- does not require batteries
- basic components: solar panels, inverter, mounting brackets.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Here's a useful idea I can contribute at this point:
I'm using Google Earth to look at the rooftops in my neighborhood and nearby neighborhoods to see who is using solar panels now.
I'll go knock on their doors, introduce myself and ask for their advice based on their own experience.
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
While I don't have experience with those products or installation, a friend of mine here in the Portland area has panels on his roof and even here in Oregon he is often producing enough that he's selling power back into the grid.
If you get sunny weather where you are, I'd think they will certainly produce enough power to be beneficial, and if there are state/energy credits to help offset the installation costs.
Photographer
The Grey Forest
Posts: 542
Igoumenítsa, Kentriki Ellada, Greece
Depending on your location, there are actually new companies that will inspect your property and install their own solar panels at their expense for you ~ instead of owning it, you allow them to milk the $ feedback to the Power Grid (their investment, they get the $$ from what energy the Electric company must fork out)
of course, the foremost topic you will want to look at is your current Elect Consumption. ~ is your home/daily living as economical as you can get it ? Energy Star electronics & appliances, conservative with your hot water settings and cooking, and replace every single bulb with LED's and solar lighting for landscaping.
Buy all your LED E27 bulbs on eBay from China = they are 1/10th the price ! that's what I did.
I burn $25 usd ele bill in the Summer = less than $50 winter. not bad at all.
If you want to own your Array, then do a great deal of research and talk to people who currently utilize them. You want your investment to pay for itself in under 5 yrs, and of course, not be outdated technology by that time.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
The Grey Forest wrote:
Depending on your location, there are actually new companies that will inspect your property and install their own solar panels at their expense for you ~ instead of owning it, you allow them to milk the $ feedback to the Power Grid (their investment, they get the $$ from what energy the Electric company must fork out). This is the kind of company that got me started looking to see if I can do it all myself.
Their main thrust is to keep us in "tier 1" pricing, which is about 17 cents per kilowatt hour for the first 356 kwh. After that, it goes to 19 cents for the next 107 kwh in "tier 2." This brings us up to 463 kwh.
The next 249 kwh doubles from tier 1 to 35 cents per kwh for "tier 3". Total is now 712 kw hr
Over 712 kwh is "tier 4 at 37 cents per kwh.
There were only 3 people at a rental house I pay all the bills for, and probably by running electric heaters that are all burning 1750 watts (compared to an 8 watt light bulb, for example), they jacked my bill for the past month over $500.
Because I pay the bills and they don't, they don't care. If I ask them to please be careful, they still don't care. If I tell them my f'ing bill for their electricity is $500, they think I'm exaggerating or that it's my problem, not theirs.
---
Back to the point of these companies that want to install everything for "nothing": Their pitch is that they can reduce our tier 1 from 17 cents down to 15 cents (BFD) and that they can keep us out of tier 3 and 4, which is where we get stabbed hard.
OK, so we save "something" and it costs nothing, right?
The problem is that they try to gloss over the fact that we have to sign a 20 year contract and that we can not break the contract. If we do, then we owe them the unpaid balance of the contract that can be up to $70,000.
Of course, one of the papers they shuffle in front of you to sign without reading is a lean on the equity of your house.
Thanks, but no thanks. Nothing is "free" ... especially expensive solar panels that can be charged to us under a bad contract for far more than they are worth.
Buyer beware.
There are over 400 companies in California trying to sell these kinds of solar energy plans.
Who wants to be locked into today's solar panel technology for the next 20 years?
Not me. That's crazy if you stop to think about it.
If you choose to sell your house, you still owe the balance of the contract, unless you can sell your mistake to the people who are buying your house.
See where this is going?
---
Now, look how simple these kits are from Costco:
http://www.costco.com/home-solar-power.html
solar panels
inverter
wires
mounting brackets
That's it.
IT looks like all we need is a ladder and an electric screwdriver to screw it together.
This becomes a part of the grid and it's monitored by the electric company at the new style Big Brother meters we all have.
More options to dig through at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ … solar+kits
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 5885
Vineland, New Jersey, US
I know a man who installed solar panels on the roof of one of his out buildings. He uses these panels to power a series of lights in his house. He installed this whole setup himself with a PVC system that allows him to change the angle of the panels (instead of just pointing them south, they face east in the morning and west in the evening). He did this because he says he's getting older (close to 90) and doesn't get the exercise he used to get so the walk out there does him good. I don't know how much his electric bill has dropped since installing them but he likes the set up.
The solar panels recharge at least 2 12 volt deep cycle batteries (one is in the house, the other in that out building). There is a power inverter near both sets of batteries. It works for him. His panels are relatively small ... they don't cover anywhere near his entire roof.
I have seen some houses that have the entire roof covered. I think it's a great thing.
In Philadelphia, Lincoln Financial Field (home of the Eagles) is going "green". They have this plan set up so that by 2020 or so (maybe before) they want to be able to not only supply all of their own power but also to sell some back to the city.
Personally I think solar energy is a great thing. Sunlight exists, anyway without any effort from any person anywhere. Converting the light to electricity produces no emissions I'm aware of and it's a simple system. It would be pretty awesome if all or most of people's electricity and other energy needs could be met through solar energy.
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 8192
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US
I suggest starting small. One or two panels that you can install yourself. You can back ffed the system without a meter. You don't get paid for what you produce, but your meter will run backwards if you are producing more than you are using. Then you can use that experience to make further decisions.
You should be aware of the danger of solar power. A friend works for the NRC. Industry wide, there are more injuries from solar than any other power generation. Mostly from people falling of the roof!
You need to change your agreement with your tenants and make them responsible for utilities. That would save power.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Click Hamilton wrote:
This is the kind of company that got me started looking to see if I can do it all myself.
Their main thrust is to keep us in "tier 1" pricing, which is about 17 cents per kilowatt hour for the first 356 kwh. After that, it goes to 19 cents for the next 107 kwh in "tier 2." This brings us up to 463 kwh.
The next 249 kwh doubles from tier 1 to 35 cents per kwh for "tier 3". Total is now 712 kw hr
Over 712 kwh is "tier 4 at 37 cents per kwh.
There were only 3 people at a rental house I pay all the bills for, and probably by running electric heaters that are all burning 1750 watts (compared to an 8 watt light bulb, for example), they jacked my bill for the past month over $500.
Because I pay the bills and they don't, they don't care. If I ask them to please be careful, they still don't care. If I tell them my f'ing bill for their electricity is $500, they think I'm exaggerating or that it's my problem, not theirs.
---
Back to the point of these companies that want to install everything for "nothing": Their pitch is that they can reduce our tier 1 from 17 cents down to 15 cents (BFD) and that they can keep us out of tier 3 and 4, which is where we get stabbed hard.
OK, so we save "something" and it costs nothing, right?
The problem is that they try to gloss over the fact that we have to sign a 20 year contract and that we can not break the contract. If we do, then we owe them the unpaid balance of the contract that can be up to $70,000.
Of course, one of the papers they shuffle in front of you to sign without reading is a lean on the equity of your house.
Thanks, but no thanks. Nothing is "free" ... especially expensive solar panels that can be charged to us under a bad contract for far more than they are worth.
Buyer beware.
There are over 400 companies in California trying to sell these kinds of solar energy plans.
Who wants to be locked into today's solar panel technology for the next 20 years?
Not me. That's crazy if you stop to think about it.
If you choose to sell your house, you still owe the balance of the contract, unless you can sell your mistake to the people who are buying your house.
See where this is going?
---
Now, look how simple these kits are from Costco:
http://www.costco.com/home-solar-power.html
solar panels
inverter
wires
mounting brackets
That's it.
IT looks like all we need is a ladder and an electric screwdriver to screw it together.
This becomes a part of the grid and it's monitored by the electric company at the new style Big Brother meters we all have.
More options to dig through at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ … solar+kits Also be careful that you don't fall off the roof.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
A good friend of mine in western Wisconsin did this. The electric companies pay him per month now. Cost of the instillation and parts will offset in a few years. Really cool.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
I saw one panel that sounded really interesting. It was on the (too) short-lived Planet Green channel, and I've never seen it since.
There are generally 2 types of panels, PV panels, which make electricity, and thermal panels which make hot water. One of the problems with PV panels is that they generate electricity less efficiently when they're hot, so ironically, the more sunlight they get, the less efficient they are.
This panel combined PV and thermal. The hot water part drew the heat out of the panel, so it kept the PV part efficient.
Not that this has much more than a tangential connection to the question at hand, but I've been thinking about this for a few years.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Personally, I think it's stupid that in places like southern California and Arizona not every roof is covered in solar panels.
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 14028
Maricopa, Arizona, US
Couple of thoughts -
Do a manual read of your meter.and make sure it agrees with PGE. Sometimes those smart meters aren't so smart.
LED bulbs are great savers **but** should only be replaced where they will actually do some good (high usage areas). I have an old 100W bulb in my attack. I think it has been on for about an hour in the three years I've lived here.
Check your attack insulation. If these are older homes it may save you quite a bit just to refresh it.
Make sure all door/window frames are properly sealed.
Photographer
Jim Ball
Posts: 17632
Frontenac, Kansas, US
One idea that sounds to me like it would save a bundle is make your renters pay their own damn electric bills! I'll bet they would start conserving electricity real fast then!
Photographer
Dream-foto
Posts: 4483
Chico, California, US
After receiving the sales pitch from one of the larger solar companies in California. I decided to check around a little. Since my bills are low (about $40 a month for electric) the saving the salesman offered me wasn't enough to get locked into a 20 year contract.
I found several companies which will sell the whole setup and it seems there is a high mark-up on this equipment. Just a rough guess, I can install it myself for about half of what the contractor wanted.
It's not hard to mount the solar panels, install the inverters and run the wiring. I'd still need to have a licensed electrician inspect the connection to the main electrical panel and sign off on it.
Photographer
matt-h2
Posts: 876
Oakland, California, US
A couple of thoughts.
First, I agree with the poster (2 up) about your tenants. I would attempt to renegotiate the lease to make them responsible for gas/electric, perhaps with some concessions on your part (do an energy audit, follow its recommendations aggressively; perhaps commit to solar as well). They need motivation to use electricity wisely, and with your help, they can do it. Consider installing a condensing gas fired space heater. They are 90+% efficient, and a much cheaper way of heating a house than electric resistance heat (CA standards essentially prohibit resistance heat for new dwellings).
If you go with solar PV, I think you have thought through some of the basics. I've seen some deals on FatWallet for bulk panel buys, so, since you are going the DIY route, that may be a good option. There are some industry standard methods of panel installation and electrical design. Either hire a contractor who knows this or figure it out yourself. You will need to get permitted and inspected. Many cities have tried to standardize to some extent so that the time/hassle of permitting is reduced.
One specific recommendation from a friend in San Diego who did a PV installation: get microinverters instead of a whole system inverter. Not only do they reduce your cost if one fails, they also increase your average generation, since each panel produces based on its current voltage, rather than the system being limited by the worst producing panel (not sure I have that exactly right, but the gist is correct).
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
I've installed 12-volt solar and wind systems, but never 110. I have read of people who do much of the work themselves, hiring an electrician for much of it. Some of that may depend on what contract the electrical company has.
Many people mount their solar cells on their roof. I'm not sure I'd do that for a few reasons:
1. When it's time to re-roof, you need to take them all down and reinstall them all.
2. Much less accessible if there is a problem.
3. Adjustable mounting surfaces are more efficient because their angle can be changed throughout the year to match the sun.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
Click Hamilton wrote:
Their main thrust is to keep us in "tier 1" pricing, which is about 17 cents per kilowatt hour for the first 356 kwh. After that, it goes to 19 cents for the next 107 kwh in "tier 2." This brings us up to 463 kwh.
The next 249 kwh doubles from tier 1 to 35 cents per kwh for "tier 3". Total is now 712 kw hr
Over 712 kwh is "tier 4 at 37 cents per kwh. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! Your electric rates are crazy high. GEEEZUS!
I pay between 10 and 11 cents per kwh.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Hunter GWPB wrote:
You need to change your agreement with your tenants and make them responsible for utilities. That would save power. Jim Ball wrote:
One idea that sounds to me like it would save a bundle is make your renters pay their own damn electric bills! I'll bet they would start conserving electricity real fast then! Indeed.
In situations where I rent an entire house on one contract to a group of students, they pay all their own bills, except for yard maintenance and trash collection. This puts the burden of management squarely on the users and they manage accordingly.
In some situations I have furnished houses set up for renting on a per-room basis for foreign students. This becomes too difficult to try to split per household, especially when students are coming and going from overseas per semester. In this case, I quote a flat rate of $100/person per month.
This typically generates $400 per house cash flow to offset gas & electric, wifi, and water. These three bills are continually climbing and average about $600-700 per house now, as long as they let me know if a faucet is dripping or toilet keeps running.
When there's an unreported maintenance issue, my bills can spike by hundreds of dollars, depending on what it is. I should make checklists and do regular monthly inspections myself. This not only lets me check toilet valves, faucets, etc., but I can casually observe energy usage habits, like people who swap out low volume shower heads, old style light bulbs, electric heaters, lights, computers and TV's running with nobody around, etc., etc., etc.
I don't want to be anyone's nanny, but these things are getting damned expensive and anyone who doesn't pay the bills doesn't care what I have to fork over each month. Lack of energy management can be VERY expensive and vary widely.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
Click Hamilton wrote:
Indeed.
In situations where I rent an entire house on one contract to a group of students, they pay all their own bills, except for yard maintenance and trash collection. This puts the burden of management squarely on the users and they manage accordingly.
In some situations I have furnished houses set up for renting on a per-room basis for foreign students. This becomes too difficult to try to split per household, especially when students are coming and going from overseas per semester. In this case, I quote a flat rate of $100/person per month.
This typically generates $400 per house cash flow to offset gas & electric, wifi, and water. These three bills are continually climbing and average about $600-700 per house now, as long as they let me know if a faucet is dripping or toilet keeps running.
When there's an unreported maintenance issue, my bills can spike by hundreds of dollars, depending on what it is. I should make checklists and do regular monthly inspections myself. This not only lets me check toilet valves, faucets, etc., but I can casually observe energy usage habits, like people who swap out low volume shower heads, old style light bulbs, electric heaters, lights, computers and TV's running with nobody around, etc., etc., etc.
I don't want to be anyone's nanny, but these things are getting damned expensive and anyone who doesn't pay the bills doesn't care what I have to fork over each month. Lack of energy management can be VERY expensive and vary widely. ...or increase the rate to actually cover your costs and not be bothered about how much they waste.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
...or increase the rate to actually cover your costs and not be bothered about how much they waste. They are already paying $750/mo per room. In Texas they can probably get an entire house for that price.
There comes a point when we can't raise rents any higher to cover costs. Normal people don't have that much money to spend. The result is vacancy and that bites even harder. The base rates and line items for utilities is still high, even if the utilities are shut off.
I'm thankful I still don't have mortgages to pay on top of all this. I don't envy those who are trying to service debt at the same time.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
ernst tischler wrote:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! Your electric rates are crazy high. GEEEZUS!
I pay between 10 and 11 cents per kwh. Click Hamilton wrote:
Welcome to California No wonder all those U-Haul trucks are on I-10 headed east.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
Click Hamilton wrote:
They are already paying $750/mo per room. There comes a point when we can't raise rents to cover costs. The result is vacancy and that bites even harder.
I'm thankful I still don't have mortgages to pay on top of all this. I don't envy those who are trying to service debt at the same time. $750 for a ROOM??? The houses my family owns here (3 bedroom/2 bath) rent for $950/mo for the whole house. The renters do have to pay all their own utilities.
So I have to ask, what do the property taxes run on these houses per year? (sits down to hear answer)
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
$750 for a ROOM??? The houses my family owns here (3 bedroom/2 bath) rent for $950/mo for the whole house. The renters do have to pay all their own utilities.
So I have to ask, what do the property taxes run on these houses per year? (sits down to hear answer) Yes, $750 per room. Due to the lingering slump, I have not raised my rents for several years. Compared to market averages, my rates are refreshingly low, my houses are better maintained, and located closer to the university than many. With these numbers for rent and expenses, it's very important to avoid vacancies.
My houses are simple 4-bedroom single family homes built in the early 50's when the concept of tract homes started to evolve. I would call them "threshhold" value homes. Prices are still depressed, but they are averaging around $500-600,000 now in this frumpy university neighborhood of San Diego. My own property taxes are lower because I bought most of these houses in the 80's and I am still protected under CA Prop 13 that was designed to stop people from being forced out of their houses by the cost of rising property taxes. At the time of sale, houses are recalibrated at current rates for property taxes. My old property tax structure puts each house at around $2,500-$3,000 per year after all the add-ons. Like the fact that I have paid off my debt, this lower property tax structure gives me a little more breathing space, compared to others who have bought their houses in more recent years.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! Your electric rates are crazy high. GEEEZUS!
I pay between 10 and 11 cents per kwh. This is part of the cost I'm trying to defray with grid-tie solar solutions. This bill was generated last month by 3 students in a 4 bedroom house. From Dec 20, I have not yet filled the 4th room. Last year I installed a new wall-mount gas heater (more efficient than traditional floor furnaces). It's 90,000 BTU's is sufficient to heat this small house but I don't think they use it. That was another DIY project that cost over $1000 and consumed valuable time. I am guessing they close their bedroom doors and use plug-in electric heaters. Not sure about that.
![https://www.pbase.com/image/158981396.jpg]()
I found some good ideas for laying out my approach to a plan here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/ … vation.htm
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV … nomics.htm
^There are other good page links from these two
I'm starting a storyboard on the pin board walls of my office to try to assimilate many things and form a plan of attack
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Dream-foto wrote:
After receiving the sales pitch from one of the larger solar companies in California. I decided to check around a little. Since my bills are low (about $40 a month for electric) the saving the salesman offered me wasn't enough to get locked into a 20 year contract.
I found several companies which will sell the whole setup and it seems there is a high mark-up on this equipment. Just a rough guess, I can install it myself for about half of what the contractor wanted.
It's not hard to mount the solar panels, install the inverters and run the wiring. I'd still need to have a licensed electrician inspect the connection to the main electrical panel and sign off on it. Yes. Yes. Yes.
This is what I want to do. I need to figure out things like the importance of name brand quality panels, or if they all come from the same factories in China under different names. If so, maybe I can buy them direct for a fraction of the cost. At this moment, I'm considering rigging one house as a test, then on that basis expand to others.
I think the choice of inverter is important too.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
matt-h2 wrote:
A couple of thoughts.
First, I agree with the poster (2 up) about your tenants. I would attempt to renegotiate the lease to make them responsible for gas/electric, perhaps with some concessions on your part (do an energy audit, follow its recommendations aggressively; perhaps commit to solar as well). They need motivation to use electricity wisely, and with your help, they can do it. Consider installing a condensing gas fired space heater. They are 90+% efficient, and a much cheaper way of heating a house than electric resistance heat (CA standards essentially prohibit resistance heat for new dwellings).
If you go with solar PV, I think you have thought through some of the basics. I've seen some deals on FatWallet for bulk panel buys, so, since you are going the DIY route, that may be a good option. There are some industry standard methods of panel installation and electrical design. Either hire a contractor who knows this or figure it out yourself. You will need to get permitted and inspected. Many cities have tried to standardize to some extent so that the time/hassle of permitting is reduced.
One specific recommendation from a friend in San Diego who did a PV installation: get microinverters instead of a whole system inverter. Not only do they reduce your cost if one fails, they also increase your average generation, since each panel produces based on its current voltage, rather than the system being limited by the worst producing panel (not sure I have that exactly right, but the gist is correct). *noted. Thank you.
Yes, I'm reading that microinverters per panel is important to consider now. For a grid-tie system, it seems there is little else to buy, except mounting brackets, wires and connectors.
Solar hype by installers is such a huge scam now that I think some smart shopping and careful buying is in order. I have a gut feeling that we can find exactly what we need to assemble our own system at a fraction of the price these installation scammers with 20 year contracts are quoting.
---
Yes to the gas heaters. Did that last spring. You can see from my bill above that they are not using them.
Also on this point, I still have tank style gas water heaters. I'm considering testing a replacement on-demand water heater from Eccotemp, who is aggressive with pricing and has excellent customer service.
I bought a smaller heater from them last summer for a Japanese ofuro on my back patio. I like their prices, products and service. I have to double check the legality and liability under local codes. There are some grey areas I want to be careful to nail down.
http://www.eccotemp.com/
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've installed 12-volt solar and wind systems, but never 110. I have read of people who do much of the work themselves, hiring an electrician for much of it. Some of that may depend on what contract the electrical company has.
Many people mount their solar cells on their roof. I'm not sure I'd do that for a few reasons:
1. When it's time to re-roof, you need to take them all down and reinstall them all.
2. Much less accessible if there is a problem.
3. Adjustable mounting surfaces are more efficient because their angle can be changed throughout the year to match the sun. As I'm searching around, I'm finding many small and special use systems that are very interesting. I would like to pursue these for my own hobbies and projects.
The guy who makes the flying saucers I use in some of my photos is a movie set electrician. He has a remote property at the top of the mountains overlooking the desert. When the sun goes down, there are saucer "landing strips" and light markers on the hills all around him that light up from some kind of solar energy systems he has positioned amongst the rocks. I think it's time to pay him another visit.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
There is a guy a couple of miles from here who has been into green energy for about 5 or 6 years.
He has both solar panels and wind turbines that generate electricity. I believe he said one time that everything was purchased online and he installed it all himself. He also has a solar water heater that he built himself from plans he found on the internet.
I know about what he has done from what I have heard from others. Everyone around knows about his projects because everything can be seen from the road.
His solar electric panels track the sun. He started with one cluster, mounted on a single pipe, and is now up to five of them. My youngest daughter called them "power flowers"...I think she got that name from one of his children she knew at school.
His wind turbines are vertical and look like they were made out of metal 55 gallon drums. There are three poles with three turbines stacked vertically on each pole. I have no idea what sort of generator is inside. Those things are always spinning, even in a slight breeze.
His solar water heater is a "breadbox" type. After seeing his, I found plans online and we built one of these for our hunting camp (we have running water but no electricity out there, always had cold showers before we built it). As long as we remember to close the insulated doors at sunset and open them again in the morning, it is a fairly good source of hot water. I believe the insulated doors on his are power close and open on a dusk to dawn timer.
The one complaint I have heard about his electrical generation setup, and the solar power generation of others in our area, is the local electric provider does not allow "small station cogeneration". In order to cogenerate, the homeowner has to upgrade to three phase (which is costly and results in commercial rate for power). I have been told that is just something the power company made up to avoid having to deal with a bunch of homeowners wanting to sell power back into the grid. I partly believe that because I have heard the city of Austin is solar and wind cogeneration friendly.
I have looked into doing some solar or wind generation, but the low cost of electricity around here makes it almost not worth doing.
Artist/Painter
ethasleftthebuilding
Posts: 16685
Key West, Florida, US
Click Hamilton wrote:
![https://www.pbase.com/image/158981396.jpg]() On the breakdown on the right side, they have charged you more of Transmission and Distribution than I pay for my entire electric bill for a month!
They made over $400 on $100 worth of electricity!
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
The one complaint I have heard about his electrical generation setup, and the solar power generation of others in our area, is the local electric provider does not allow "small station cogeneration". In order to cogenerate, the homeowner has to upgrade to three phase (which is costly and results in commercial rate for power). I have been told that is just something the power company made up to avoid having to deal with a bunch of homeowners wanting to sell power back into the grid. I partly believe that because I have heard the city of Austin is solar and wind cogeneration friendly. When we are self-sufficient, we don't need them. They are not going to let this happen.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
On the breakdown on the right side, they have charged you more of Transmission and Distribution than I pay for my entire electric bill for a month!
They made over $400 on $100 worth of electricity! Probably much more, at great expense and inefficiency. It's a monopoly and source of revenue for many outstretched hands.
In our case here in San Diego, with San Diego Gas & Electric (taken over/absorbed by Sempra Energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sempra_Energy), they say they will buy back excess generation of energy either as a credit against our bills, or with a refund check by request. However, by looking around their website, this is not at the rates they charge us, but as some "wholesale rate" calculated by them. I think this base rate starts at 4 cents per kwh. I'm not sure what the net amount would be.
I think what is of most strategic importance to us, is to avoid using as much of their electricity as possible, so that we stay down near the bottom of the first tier for electricity. I think with a grid-tie system that means we can avoid their rates during the day when we generate our own power and we then use their retail priced electricity at night when we are not producing. This is in the case of not adding storage batteries. I think the excess power we produce and send back into the grid is credited at their defined "wholesale" rate.
I do not yet know about the suggestion above about excess power making our meters run backwards. My gut feeling is that they have a way of preventing this so they can sell to us at retail and buy back from us at their so-called "wholesale."
All of our neighborhoods are now outfitted with "smart meters" so they have enormous control over many things now, and I read at another page of the SDGE website that they monitor our solar energy production, so I'm almost ready to bet that the idea of running our meters backwards is nostalgic charm from days gone by.
I've also read Life Hack and "redneck" ideas in the past about ways to make meters run backwards with magnets, etc. With smart meters and all their new wireless/wifi/internet monitoring technology I don't think these things work anymore.
Smart Meter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter
Smart Grid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
SIDEBAR: My cousin once hooked up a milling machine at my fathers machine many years ago. It was pre-smart meter days. For some unknown reason it seemed to make the meter run backwards when all the other machines made it run forwards. He couldn't figure out what was going on. *headscratch
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Back to looking at the breakdown of charges on the bill:
Trying to figure out who gets what by continual mandate add-ons, for what, and why is mind-numbing. IMHO, it's simply a very lucrative source of funds sucked by the robber baron status of monopolized utilities that nobody can escape from.
My "toilet hook up fee" started one year out of nowhere and was something like $60/mo flat rate for two toilets per house, even if the toilets are never used. Not sure what it is now. It annoys me to look at all this line-item add-on minutiae which stacks up to an ever-growing total. They keep inventing new ways to expand our bills, all the time, on all the bills we receive. Peasants, we are. Pissants even.
Cough up on schedule or be fined with late fees, shut-off fees, turn-back-on fees, collection fees, arbitrary security deposits, etc.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
ernst tischler wrote:
I have looked into doing some solar or wind generation, but the low cost of electricity around here makes it almost not worth doing. Count your blessings, my friend.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
The quote came back for the Costco kit from Grape Solar: "This quote is for a 4.16 kW DC Grid-Tied system. Your custom Costco.com quote is attached as a pdf file. A bill of materials and pricing information are included. A system of this size should produce 544 kWh AC per average month, according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s PV Watts simulation." Here is the total parts list: 16 panels: Canadian Solar CS6P-260M 260W monocrystalline PV module. UL-1703 & CEC certified. 10-year material/workmanship warranty plus 10-year > 90%, 25-year > 80% output warranty, 6” cell. 16 microinverters: Enphase M215-60-2LL-IG-S22/S23/S24 Microinverter Integrated (DC isolated) Ground. 208V/240V, 60Hz, Grid-Tied. 25-year product warranty. MC4 Latching PV Connector. 18 trunk cables: ET10-240-BULK, 240VAC Trunk Cable for Portrait Mounting, sold per drop 2 branch terminators: Enphase Energy ET-TERM-10 Branch Terminator 2 water seals: Enphase Energy ET-SEAL-10 Water Tight Cap, Qty 1 1 communication gateway: Enphase Envoy Communication Gateway (IEMU-03) 1 mounting rack system for asphalt roof: UniRac SolarMount regular roof mount racking system for solar panel array direct mounting on Asphalt Shingle pitch roof. Wind load up to 90 mph with standard configuration. Higher wind load configuration is optional. $10,830 30% tax credit If I hire an installer, the cost of the installer also qualifies for the 30% tax credit. "To learn more about solar related incentives in your area, visit http://www.dsireusa.org and www.solarpowerrocks.com " --- This is a good starting point. It tells me everything I need and comes from a reliable source (Costco). If I want to use an installer, they will give me local names of certified installers.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
So...I have a semi-related question here. Should I demand the meter is read every month? I want to say the electric and gas do not do that, they average it based on the previous year....I think. They have an actual reading a few times a year. Is this right?
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
At this quote price of $10,830, it looks like my break even for the net outlay of $7,500 would come after 3 years.
To get to break-even faster it behooves me to shop smart now.
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The fastest and most immediate return comes from scrupulous energy management, and measures taken to reduce energy consumption. A good portion of that requires little or no cash outlay at all.
For example, if I can manage consumption/waste and keep my tenants within tier 1 & 2, then these numbers for breakeven might change pretty dramatically.
Maybe I can think of a simple plan to keep my tenants within this range as part of our contract. Something they can understand enough to modify their behavior in a cooperative way.
Something like: "I'll pay for tier 1 & 2 .... when you go over that, you pay" .... then give them weekly group text messages or emails with usage stats from my online accounts. Kind of like the way Verizon warns me when I'm close to my monthly limit.
Verizon does it in a nice way that helps me manage. Maybe I can set up the same kind of semi-automated notification system with my tenants. It needs to sound helpful, not like nagging or badgering, and it has to keep the need for energy management current in their thinking.
Ditto for water.
Our wifi is a flat rate I negotiate with the cable company+, so that doesn't matter.
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Model Sarah wrote:
So...I have a semi-related question here. Should I demand the meter is read every month? I want to say the electric and gas do not do that, they average it based on the previous year....I think. They have an actual reading a few times a year. Is this right? In previous years, averaging was common with occasional physical readings.
If you already have been upgraded to a smart meter, they are read continually in increments of less than an hour.
It's not necessary to demand that someone come to your house to read your meter.
You can easily read your gas, electric and water meters yourself. You can log them in a notebook until you understand what's being consumed at what rates. I think it's good to have a feel for this anyway so you understand what you are paying for.
Your bills will tell you the number of days in a cycle and the cycle dates. If you want, you can also read your meter on those dates and monitor your bills that way.
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There is also a lot of good analytical information for your useage available online if you activate your online access with your utility companies.
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Around here, they assign different rates to different people, which gets complicated. They have a usage measurement period each year. If you are low income they have programs to give you cheaper rates, then they make up for that by charging other people more. For reasons I don't understand, my rates are always more than my neighbors. Calling the company to find out why usually gets me diverted to their useless PR department that is set up to deal with people complaining about their bills.
I'm not sure, but I think I get skewered because my rates were set up many years ago when I was building a robust business and buying multiple properties. I was probably a target for the highest rates.
To try to get my rates reduced has been unsuccessful. I've considered cancelling my accounts that go back 30 or more years and reapply as a new customer --- as a retired old guy of humble means. When I ask them about why my rates are more than neighbors around me they are very evasive. They always turn the conversation around and say it's my fault for using so much of their services.
This can not be the case. I do not have air conditioners in any of my houses. I physically shut off the heaters every March and don't turn them back on until November. These are simple houses, .. no swimming pools, no climate control, ... nothing. I have water heaters, washing machines, dryers, lights, ceiling fans and wall outlets. That's it. In San Diego our average daily temperature is 72F so we don't need all the heating/cooling/insulation, etc. that is necessary in other parts of the country.
What I need to escape from is the relentless money suck from the monopolies that exploit us.
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 14028
Maricopa, Arizona, US
Model Sarah wrote:
So...I have a semi-related question here. Should I demand the meter is read every month? I want to say the electric and gas do not do that, they average it based on the previous year....I think. They have an actual reading a few times a year. Is this right? Well, it depends.
The smart meters for electricity are not always that smart (my neighbor was just overcharged for 2Kw). His bill said the meter reading was a "direct read." This, apparently does not necessarily mean what one would think it means - you know, someone actually coming out to read the meter. There are various ways of transmitting meter data to the power co. They are not foolproof (at all).
Same thing with water meters. Many of the "new" high-tech water meters are simply old mechanical devices modified to accept an RF x-mitter. They too, can be off considerably. A "direct read" (here) simply means that someone drove by in a truck and pulled the trigger on a receiver - they did NOT actually get off their fat ass, out of their nice comfy truck, and read the freaking dial.
This is precisely why I suggested that Click get verified readings - he actually **watches them** read the dial. There is (to my way of thinking) no point in making a substantial investment if the problem is in the meter/s (or, more possibly, how they are being read).
My neighbor won both cases and got a substantial refund. Just because your bill says it's true, doesn't make it so!
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