ernst tischler wrote:
But today, compared to my experiences when I visit Oregon, I prefer to pump the gas myself.  I have never spent so much time waiting for a kid to walk slowly over, take my card, put the nozzle in, start the pump, walk slowly away, not notice the pump is done, walk slowly back, put the nozzle up, give me the receipt and then not even say "thank you".  I did find out the quickest way to get them over to pump the gas is to get out and begin to pump it myself.

Huh. That's definitely not a good experience. They are always very efficient and very friendly to me, but that's likely because I'm a regular customer: I always go to the same Fred Meyer gas station (there's one halfway between my house and my studio) because I get discounts ---averaging .50 to $1 off per gallon--- using the gas points accumulated through regular loyalty-card-tracked grocery purchases.

Next time you're here, give 'em a try. Hopefully you'll have a better experience.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Well, in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas.  That's a start.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
sorry but this is not a "new" phenomenon...for as long as man has existed, he has created technology to  make things more efficient. Think of all the IT guys who lost jobs when Microsoft came out with that GUI and that little clicky thing next to your keyboard...ad infinitum.

Have I got a thread for you!

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/946822

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Have I got a thread for you!

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/946822

and I replied...

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
sorry but this is not a "new" phenomenon...for as long as man has existed, he has created technology to  make things more efficient. Think of all the IT guys who lost jobs when Microsoft came out with that GUI and that little clicky thing next to your keyboard...ad infinitum. Pump your own gas...it's pretty stupid to forced to pay 10 cents more per gallon to have some idiot 16year old pump gas. It provides no value to most people who can pump their own gas.

They pump it in Jersey and it is cheaper than it is here.  Saving that 10 cents (notice there is no cents symbol on the keyboard) just gave the state 20 more in taxes.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
Pump your own gas...it's pretty stupid to forced to pay 10 cents more per gallon to have some idiot 16year old pump gas. It provides no value to most people who can pump their own gas.

I don't mind having some kid pump my gas. He has a job, which provides him an income, which he'll then spend, which stimulates the economy. Better than being some entitled bum living off his parents in perpetuity.

Lovely Day Media wrote:
NJ is another state that does not allow one to pump their own gas. I, too, prefer to pump my own. I can't tell you how many times some idiot has squirted fuel all over the side of my car and especially all over my motorcycle.  When I'm on a motorcycle, if they won't let me pump my own, I go to a station that will.

Perhaps a sideline question, but does this "second job" include bringing your own food to a table in a place like McDonalds (if one eats in places like that)? A long time ago, all a person had to do was pull up and someone would take your order and bring the food to you. They eventually changed so a person had to go to the counter themselves.  What say you?

There still are a few of these places.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

There still are a few of these places.

There's an A&W's up in Lexington that does that still Jerry.  Over out near Lake Huron. 

Gryph wrote:
There's an A&W's up in Lexington that does that still Jerry.  Over out near Lake Huron. 

There is also one at the A&W in Standish, MI.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
notice there is no cents symbol on the keyboard

Sure there is  ¢¢¢¢¢

Studio36

[number lock} then hold down alt + 0162 on the number kb

studio36uk wrote:
Sure there is  ¢¢¢¢¢

Studio36

[number lock} then hold down alt + 0162 on the number kb

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Thanks.  I did not know that.  This board (MAC) does not have a numbers lock or numbers keyboard.  On the PC, I have memorized all the key combinations for the symbols per the software.  Playing with, trying to figure out how to get the marks over the letters for other languages.

¢ alt (option) 4 
© alt G

Thanks

kickfight wrote:

I don't mind having some kid pump my gas. He has a job, which provides him an income, which he'll then spend, which stimulates the economy. Better than being some entitled bum living off his parents in perpetuity.

that doesn't make a lot of sense...much like many other tax schemes. So it costs the consumer more money...and somehow that ONE kid pumping gas makes the economy turn around?

Here's a better idea...keep the gas price 10 cents per gallon lower and every patron saves money that they can spend which stimulates the economy.
High gas prices help the energy sector which drives the economy in Houston, but also takes money out of the pocket of every consumer.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

[The author defines] shadow work as all the unpaid jobs we do on behalf of businesses and organizations: We are pumping our own gas, scanning our own groceries, booking our travel and busing our tables at Starbucks. Shadow work is a new concept, so as yet, no one has compiled economic data on how many jobs we, the consumers, have taken over from (erstwhile) employees. Yet it is surely a force shrinking the job market, and the unemployment it creates is structural. Thanks in part to this new phenomenon, widespread joblessness could become entrenched in the social landscape.



http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ … 18119.html

Here in BC,Canada, most service stations are setup with full-service and self-serve pumps.You can pump your own gas, or pay more ( not sure how much more...cause I pump my own always).I rarely see anyone using the full-serve pumps.

waynes world pics wrote:
Here in BC,Canada, most service stations are setup with full-service and self-serve pumps.You can pump your own gas, or pay more ( not sure how much more...cause I pump my own always).I rarely see anyone using the full-serve pumps.

And just so I don't accidentally pull into a full-serve pump, I go across the line, fill up in Blaine, WA (pumping my own), and save 20%. I'm ok with that... of course, it helps when you live 6 minutes from the border.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
that doesn't make a lot of sense...much like many other tax schemes. So it costs the consumer more money...and somehow that ONE kid pumping gas makes the economy turn around?

Here's a better idea...keep the gas price 10 cents per gallon lower and every patron saves money that they can spend which stimulates the economy.
High gas prices help the energy sector which drives the economy in Houston, but also takes money out of the pocket of every consumer.

I don't think they're paying people $0.10/gallon to pump gas.  I don't have exact stats, but we can make some rough estimates.

Let's say the average full service gas station hires 1 person for every 4 pumps in use.  During peak times, all of those pumps will be used constantly, and during slow times, there will be times when none of the pumps are used at all.  So we'll say on average, 1 of those 4 pumps is going at all times. 

That means that the 1 employee is responsible for pumping 600 gallons per hour.  If the employee is getting $0.10/gallon, that's $60/hour (roughly $120,000/year).

A more realistic salary is $10/hour.  That's just 1.67¢ per gallon. 

For fun, let's imagine a scenario where the US was full service only.  We consume 136.78 billion gallons per year (link).  If it takes 1 employee to fill 600 gallons per hour, that's a total of about 28.5 million daily worker shifts (8 hours).  That's the equivalent of just over 78,000 full time jobs, which is significantly more the "ONE kid" (and pretty much every penny those employees earn would go directly back into the economy).

To account for administrative costs, etc., we'll round the 1.67¢ per gallon up to 2¢ per gallon that would be added to our actual gas prices.  Per capita, we would end up paying about $8.50 per year more for gas.

Again, these are based on assumed estimates of how many employees it takes to pump gas, but I think they're reasonably realistic.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

[The author defines] shadow work as all the unpaid jobs we do on behalf of businesses and organizations: We are pumping our own gas, scanning our own groceries, booking our travel and busing our tables at Starbucks. Shadow work is a new concept, so as yet, no one has compiled economic data on how many jobs we, the consumers, have taken over from (erstwhile) employees. Yet it is surely a force shrinking the job market, and the unemployment it creates is structural. Thanks in part to this new phenomenon, widespread joblessness could become entrenched in the social landscape.



http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ … 18119.html

Replacing cashiers with self-scan stations is one thing--I agree this is adding to unemployment.

But a quick service restaurant where you toss your trash yourself--that something different.  That's part of a restaurant concept that allows lower prices.  If you want low prices, go to Jimmy Johns or Chipotle.  If you want more service go to Noodles & Company where they bring your order to your table and bus after you leave.  Want more service, go to a place with wait staff... 

I don't see Chipotle as "adding" to the unemployment situation.  Each one employs a bunch of people.  And as someone above mentioned, No one is entitled to a job.

MN Photography wrote:
Home Depot sold me a lawn mower.  When I got it home, I read the manual and it says that I have to push it around on the lawn myself.  This is not the America that I know.

you're doing it wrong.
you don't have to push it yourself.
look out front on the sidewalk next time you're at home depot.
there should be a line of hardworking people who are willing to push the mower when Americans arent.

this is the America you know.

Brian Diaz wrote:
I don't think they're paying people $0.10/gallon to pump gas.  I don't have exact stats, but we can make some rough estimates.

Let's say the average full service gas station hires 1 person for every 4 pumps in use.  During peak times, all of those pumps will be used constantly, and during slow times, there will be times when none of the pumps are used at all.  So we'll say on average, 1 of those 4 pumps is going at all times. 

That means that the 1 employee is responsible for pumping 600 gallons per hour.  If the employee is getting $0.10/gallon, that's $60/hour (roughly $120,000/year).

A more realistic salary is $10/hour.  That's just 1.67¢ per gallon. 

For fun, let's imagine a scenario where the US was full service only.  We consume 136.78 billion gallons per year (link).  If it takes 1 employee to fill 600 gallons per hour, that's a total of about 28.5 million daily worker shifts (8 hours).  That's the equivalent of just over 78,000 full time jobs, which is significantly more the "ONE kid" (and pretty much every penny those employees earn would go directly back into the economy).

To account for administrative costs, etc., we'll round the 1.67¢ per gallon up to 2¢ per gallon that would be added to our actual gas prices.  Per capita, we would end up paying about $8.50 per year more for gas.

Again, these are based on assumed estimates of how many employees it takes to pump gas, but I think they're reasonably realistic.

The average gas station/convenience store sells about 4,100 gallons of gas per day, so that's about 230 gallons per hour (assuming 18 hours per day, which is conservative because a lot of gas stations are open 24/7) for the entire station.  If a station has 12 pumps (also a low estimate), that about 19 gallons per hour per pump.  If one employee was assigned to 4 pumps (probably too low to cover peak times), that employee would be pumping about 80 gallons per hour.  So, that's 12 cents per gallon if the employees are paid $10 per hour.  And that's probably a low estimate. 

http://www.nacsonline.com/Research/Fact … Sales.aspx

The bottom line is that if the government mandates the existence of the job for no other reason than to perserve the job's existence, then it isn't a real job.  People really should be looking and training for real jobs.

MN Photography wrote:
I didn't even know what the minimum wage was in the state because I knew we couldn't pay close to it and hope to hire part time employees.  We also hired illegal workers (mostly people in the US on a student visa) at the holidays because we just couldn't get anyone.

The Invisible Hand is telling you you need to raise wages.

kickfight wrote:

I don't mind having some kid pump my gas. He has a job, which provides him an income, which he'll then spend, which stimulates the economy. Better than being some entitled bum living off his parents in perpetuity.

Forcing drivers to get out of their cars now and then to fill the gas tank forces them to stand, stretch their legs a bit and saves lives by reducing the risk of thrombophlebitis (blood clots due to sitting too long).

So, it's a public service to make you pump your own gas and it reduces healthcare costs for the entire country.

On the other hand, it may increase the risk that some idiot may drive off with the nozzle still in the gas tank, which can lead to the gas station blowing up which can kill everyone within a 50 yard radius.

Perhaps we should have the government commission a blue ribbon panel of experts to study the options and come up with a solution to this complex problem.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Perhaps we should have the government commission a blue ribbon panel of experts to study the options and come up with a solution to this complex problem.

It's worth understanding.


Politicians and pundits who shake their heads at the stubbornness of high unemployment rates are either overlooking or ignoring the obvious. Our economic and political system is stacked to reward businesses for discarding employees, not hiring them.

MN Photography wrote:
The invisible hand is just theoretical and cannot be applied evenly to every situation.  Demand for labor and demand for products and services does not always line up that neatly either.  The choice is usually find ways to provide that service at a price the public will pay or don't offer it at all.  If the government mandated the presence of pump attendants for example, many gas stations would not exist and people would be getting less service.  The number of gas stations per capita in NJ for example is far less than the national average.

Far from refuting its universality it sounds like you've provided the very definition of Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand"

MN Photography wrote:
The invisible hand is just theoretical and cannot be applied evenly to every situation.  Demand for labor and demand for products and services does not always line up that neatly either.  The choice is usually find ways to provide that service at a price the public will pay or don't offer it at all.  If the government mandated the presence of pump attendants for example, many gas stations would not exist and people would be getting less service.  The number of gas stations per capita in NJ for example is far less than the national average.

Maybe they'll come up with a way to have some guy in a call center in India pump our gas for us at stations here. That could be interesting.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Far from refuting its universality it sounds like you've provided the very definition of Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand"

When you introduce an unnatural outside force like a government mandate, you are talking about the invisible magic wand and not the invisible hand.

MN Photography wrote:
When you introduce an unnatural outside force like a government mandate, you are talking about the invisible magic wand and not the invisible hand.

Not at all.

If you are maintaining that the invisible magic wand fails, it's because the invisible hand makes it fail.

That's part of what the hand does -- makes uneconomically sound things fail.

MN Photography wrote:
The average gas station/convenience store sells about 4,100 gallons of gas per day, so that's about 230 gallons per hour (assuming 18 hours per day, which is conservative because a lot of gas stations are open 24/7) for the entire station.  If a station has 12 pumps (also a low estimate), that about 19 gallons per hour per pump.  If one employee was assigned to 4 pumps (probably too low to cover peak times), that employee would be pumping about 80 gallons per hour.  So, that's 12 cents per gallon if the employees are paid $10 per hour.  And that's probably a low estimate. 

http://www.nacsonline.com/Research/Fact … Sales.aspx

You're assuming that if a full service gas station has 12 pumps, it needs 3 employees at all time.  That's not how they work.  During slow times, they close the pumps a single employee can't cover.  During times of low demand, a gas station with 20 pumps at 5 islands will likely have 1 employee covering 4 pumps.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Not at all.

If you are maintaining that the invisible magic wand fails, it's because the invisible hand makes it fail.

That's part of what the hand does -- makes uneconomically sound things fail.

NJ doesn't have fewer gas stations because of market forces, that's only part of it.  The mandated jobs serve no purpose except to provide jobs.  The theory is not being tested the way Adam Smith intended.