This thread was locked on 2015-12-01 21:05:59
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
This is the thread I couldn't quite figuring out how to start at the time of posting the thread you are about to read:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/953094
And below is the intact original post I made. http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/typ … istic-men/
A few follow up questions:
Why do you feel the need to speak for (female) models, when a question is asked of them in this forum?
Why are so many of the posts in this forum and the rest of MM to kvetch about female models?
Nobody is obligated to give you the time of day or engage you.
Your opinion is not the most valuable or automatically the most correct.
Sometimes what you need to do is stop talking, reflect, and see if there is something on your end that can be done to solve a problem. (or maybe, ask advice from others!)
If none of these questions or comments apply to you, they were not directed to you! This is meant to start a dialogue and hopefully make the forums a happier place for all.
Questions to anyone who feels unsafe to post in the forums:
Can you describe why you feel unsafe posting in the forums?
Is there any advice you can give that would make the forums more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive?
Mods, I intended to post this in the model forum because that is the greatest concentration of posts I see, but feel free to move anywhere.
Signed,
Your resident gender-non-conforming model who is a wee bit tired of the shenanigans and found a relevant article this morning
Photographer
martin b
Posts: 2770
Manila, National Capital Region, Philippines
First I would like to say I'm happy you found an article that you connect with. I also love finding people who feel the same as me and can articulate the feelings. With that being said. I think I am a typical guy. I love giving my opinion and I especially love giving advice even if I have no clue. I didn't find anything new about that topic in the article. I think the writer of the article was just pointing out her annoyances with men. It's ok. We get annoyed by each other in the same way. I think guys are just accepting of each other a little more. No guy I know likes the one who keeps changing the topic when there is work to get done. We all know those guys but I guess we put up with each other a little more.
I love being the guy who walks up to musicians and gives advice even though I am a terrible musician. I do find female musicians to get irritated easier about it. I guess that even though I fall into many of the traps of the article I am very sad if someone in MM feels unsafe to voice their opinion. I especially feel for the women because most guys here really want more women to participate in the forums. For all the women who want to feel more included here at MM, just remember that many guys find it a form of bonding to talk about cameras and lighting and technical things even if they have no clue. It isn't a way to exclude the women of MM. Please don't feel it is personal against women.
I only touched on a couple of points of the article but felt I needed to respond in some positive way to people feeling left out in MM.
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 4162
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Seems to me that the opinion piece, linked to, with very few changes, could be re-written to support just about anyone's specific agenda.
Not every vague, general characteristic of human behavior, equally done, or expressed, by every gender iteration, is a specific example of oppression or unasked for domination or supremacy.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
There were things I agreed with in the article and things I don't.
Mansplaining is awful, and yeah, it's commonplace. Especially here.
As for the music thing, my best (male) friend is a musician, who hangs out with other male musicians. When they all get together, they just critique each others' equipment and try to one-up each other over effects pedals and whatever else. That's just music people being music people.
I found the paragraph about men talking over others (such as at meetings) interesting, because in my experience, it's not a gendered issue and instead a cultural one. When I lived in the South, if you had a meeting at work, it wasn't unusual for a "team leader" to go around the table and give every single person a chance to express their opinion, in a formal process of taking turns. In New England, people are just rude and talk over each other and if you aren't yelling, I've never been able to figure out how to get anyone to listen (or care), so mostly I don't talk. There's rarely a formalized process in place to give each attendant a "voice."
Model
Michelle Genevieve
Posts: 1140
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
Seems to me that the opinion piece, linked to, with very few changes, could be re-written to support just about anyone's specific agenda. Then you have missed the point. I wish I had a dollar for every thread (almost always in the Model Colloquy) where a model asks a female model-related question; e.g. "I'm thinking of getting a boob job. Models only, please, share your experiences and advice." and the very next 15 replies are from male photographers telling her why she shouldn't do it.
Thanks. These people ignore the question, offer unqualified advice and negate the entire discussion right from the get-go by reframing the topic to support another viewpoint.
I love the exchange of professional experiences we have here on MM. But once in a while it might be nice for people to pay attention to what's being said instead of thread grifting.
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 4162
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Then you have missed the point. I wish I had a dollar for every thread (almost always in the Model Colloquy) where a model asks a female model-related question; e.g. "I'm thinking of getting a boob job. Models only, please, share your experiences and advice." and the very next 15 replies are from male photographers telling her why she shouldn't do it.
Thanks. Ignore the question, offer unqualified advice and negate the entire discussion right from the get-go by reframing the topic to support another viewpoint.
I love the exchange of professional experiences we have here on MM. But once in a while it might be nice for people to pay attention to what's being said instead of thread grifting. My apologies. I thought there were a few points made, but neglected to validate the one point most important to you.
However, I must admit feeling slighted by your attempt to silence my voice when you say I "offer unqualified advice". You may not like, or agree with, my opinion, but that makes it no less valuable than any other.
I have a right to be heard and acknowledged as a worthwhile human being.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
It is a pretty non-specific article, but I think it touches on some relevant points. The whole point of me posting this was to start a dialogue going, and I am glad it has.
Yes, I know some women guilty of doing the same things. But in my own personal experience, which is just that- a personal experience and not fact, I see a lot of men posting in the forums talking over others and usually in an advice-giving tone rather than an advice-seeking tone.
On a regular basis I commute from downtown Boston to another part of Boston on public transportation. The space invaders are generally men, and if it is an empty bus, I can choose to either engage them in conversation and distract them and assess the situation, or I can tell them to leave me alone or not respond and get yelled at or worse. I have had male photographers talk down to me on shoots and I grinned and beared it for fear of being unprofessional. I've had to pick up and leave an abusive relationship recently and have started over for the most part, which took a lot of me reaching out and accepting advice and support.
I personally feel like it is a daily thing where I'll just browse the forums and roll my eyes at some of the topics. I'm not blaming all men for the world's issues, and think there are some flaws and fluffy points in the article posted, but that doesn't take away from the overall point of this post.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
My apologies. I thought there were a few points made, but neglected to validate the one point most important to you.
However, I must admit feeling slighted by your attempt to silence my voice when you say I "offer unqualified advice". You may not like, or agree with, my opinion, but that makes it no less valuable than any other.
I have a right to be heard and acknowledged as a worthwhile human being. Everyone has the right to feel heard, acknowledged, and treated as a worthwhile human being. That's kind of the point of feminism.
Eta:
Why was your first instinct to create a post to try and minimize, deconstruct, and negate the point of this thread? Because in effect, that is what you did.
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 4162
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
le chat dort wrote:
Everyone has the right to feel heard, acknowledged, and treated as a worthwhile human being. That's kind of the point of feminism.
Eta:
Why was your first instinct to create a post to try and minimize, deconstruct, and negate the point of this thread? Because in effect, that is what you did. My first posting, in this thread, addressed the opinion piece and its contents. It wasn't my intention to negate your posting.
If I had wanted to minimize, deconstruct, and negate your posting I would have done so (not that I wanted or felt the need to do so).
Photographer
martin b
Posts: 2770
Manila, National Capital Region, Philippines
I'm a short 5'6" filipino man. When I feel another man is overbearing I chalk it up to my height rather than my race or gender. I think everyone has their point of view. I do think you are right about men feeling a need to dominate space. I'm not sure what would be the cure except to just be aware that it makes some people uncomfortable.
I am glad you shared the article but I think I am typical guy violater of at least some of the complaints much of the time.
Model
Michelle Genevieve
Posts: 1140
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
However, I must admit feeling slighted by your attempt to silence my voice when you say I "offer unqualified advice". You may not like, or agree with, my opinion, but that makes it no less valuable than any other. Don't get all butthurt about this. You didn't pay attention to what was being said, and it showed. You're digging in and still not making yourself part of the discussion.
Your opinion IS valuable and you do have a right to be heard. Nobody is silencing you. Complaints of persecution are unwarranted. Now please join the conversation.
(And I edited my post to clarify the point I was trying to make. It wasn't about you.)
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
I'm sure there are any things that others experience in their daily life that I am not aware of. That's generally why I try to remain open-minded and open to hearing the point of view others have.
For the most part, I'm a relatively tall and thin "exotic but white passing" person (I.e. I get asked on a daily basis what I am ethnically but do not have the same experience of racism others have). If I leave the house wearing a dress and makeup it's not questioned or challenged. Likewise if I feel like wearing a suit and no makeup, I'm not questioned or challenged. I'm aware of the privileges I have and try to be mindful of those.
I have two managers at work- one is a man, one is a woman. Another superior to me is a woman. Our boss is a woman (I.e. Boss of my managers) is a woman. I can't tell you how many times someone asks to speak to the "real manager" when they are dealing with one of the female staff. My partner is pretty much the first partner that had treated me as an equal and not subservient; they are intelligent and work in mathematics and they are mindful that I understand a lot of higher maths and only clarify something when I ask specifically (we are nerds and talk about math... A lot.)
I've had artists interview me for things, and one in particular comes to mind. He was doing a book on some of the working art models in NYC and I had to constantly correct him when he misinterpreted my words (I saw what he was writing down). One thing he couldn't comprehend was my gender identity; in the end he put in his book that I am queer vs. genderqueer and maintained that genderqueer was a sexual identity even though it had the word "gender" in it.
Yesterday I was dealing with a male police officer and had to constantly correct what he was recording, too (again, I pay attention to what people write down).
Those are both extreme cases and not everyday occurrences, but still relevant to the general point I'm making with this post. I'm sure others have insights they can make as well.
Photographer
Peter House
Posts: 888
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I don't think its all that complicated or sinister.
This sub forum is not exclusively for models. It is for model related issues. Just like the photographers section is not exclusive. It is for photographers issues. Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussions and to offer their opinions and experience. These forum titles are merely a way to organize topics, not to give you some private property.
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2452
Syracuse, New York, US
Peter House wrote:
I don't think its all that complicated or sinister.
This sub forum is not exclusively for models. It is for model related issues. Just like the photographers section is not exclusive. It is for photographers issues. Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussions and to offer their opinions and experience. These forum titles are merely a way to organize topics, not to give you some private property. I absolutely agree with what you have written, however on occasion a model will post questions that are clearly aimed at other models only to receive a lot of advice from non-models. I can not speak for the OP, except I believe those are the threads she is referring to.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Peter House wrote:
I don't think its all that complicated or sinister.
This sub forum is not exclusively for models. It is for model related issues. Just like the photographers section is not exclusive. It is for photographers issues. Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussions and to offer their opinions and experience. These forum titles are merely a way to organize topics, not to give you some private property. I'm a pretty outspoken individual and feel comfortable debating in these forums. I've had many people say to me personally that they feel unwelcome posting here, most being female models, because it does tend to veer off track pretty easily when a simple topic is posted.
Before this I was a competitive street dancer among other things, and was always the one picked on when out with the 4-5 dudes I used to dance with, but that's how I gained experience so totally worked in my benefit. I've done a lot of manual labor jobs and went to a construction worker's cookout type thing and my boss advised me to say I was his daughter (oddly enough the wife of the couple whose deck we were building didn't realize I was a girl until the last day we were doing finish work and scolded my boss for letting me do such a dangerous job. Fucks sake.)
Congratulations on missing the point of this post entirely, not once have I advocated having a model's only section of the forums, just for everyone to be more mindful and to start a dialogue.
Excuse me, I must go burn a bra now or something.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Peter House wrote:
I don't think its all that complicated or sinister.
This sub forum is not exclusively for models. It is for model related issues. Just like the photographers section is not exclusive. It is for photographers issues. Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussions and to offer their opinions and experience. These forum titles are merely a way to organize topics, not to give you some private property. le chat dort wrote:
Congratulations on missing the point of this post entirely, not once have I advocated having a model's only section of the forums, just for everyone to be more mindful and to start a dialogue. Its often a model's reaction to a perfectly well-thought out response - or more accurately, the inability to take it or diplomatically brush it aside that makes it a not "more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive" place (your own words).
There were so many different acceptable ways to address Mr House's response whether its to respectively disagree or elaborate on why he missed the point, yet you choose to go off on him. I'm sorry, that's on you.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Then you have missed the point. I wish I had a dollar for every thread (almost always in the Model Colloquy) where a model asks a female model-related question; e.g. "I'm thinking of getting a boob job. Models only, please, share your experiences and advice." and the very next 15 replies are from male photographers telling her why she shouldn't do it. 1. I could be mistaken but the last time I checked, a subject like breast implants wasn't limited to which side of the camera a person's on.
2. Its because a person is currently a photographer doesn't mean they were always like that.
3. There's nothing saying that a person has to accept all pieces of advice they're given in life. Accept what works for you/makes sense/whatever, reject what doesn't. I don't see what that's so hard.
4. People have been bemoaning why more models don't participate in the various online model/photography related forums at least for the past 10 years if not longer. The dynamic of their jobs are different. Most models I know are to damn busy trying to book work & generate an income (often on a site that is VERY unfriendly towards mobile devices) to bother participating in forums like MM. The dynamic of many photographer's jobs has our brains being sucked through a computer screen while we edit - forum time is like a brief distraction from that drudgery.
Photographer
D a v i d s o n
Posts: 1216
Gig Harbor, Washington, US
le chat dort wrote:
Everyone has the right to feel heard, acknowledged, and treated as a worthwhile human being. That's kind of the point of feminism.
Eta:
Why was your first instinct to create a post to try and minimize, deconstruct, and negate the point of this thread? Because in effect, that is what you did. +1, wait last word coming...
Model
Isis22
Posts: 3557
Muncie, Indiana, US
Men aren't very good at not trying to "fix" things. When a woman asks for support they think that means they have a problem that needs to be fixed. They don't care if the question says for models only. I honestly feel that many do think a little less of women in general and it's not always a conscious thing. We are weaker, need to be protected, not as smart, etc.
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
Peter House wrote:
I don't think its all that complicated or sinister.
This sub forum is not exclusively for models. It is for model related issues. Just like the photographers section is not exclusive. It is for photographers issues. Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussions and to offer their opinions and experience. These forum titles are merely a way to organize topics, not to give you some private property. JQuest wrote:
I absolutely agree with what you have written, however on occasion a model will post questions that are clearly aimed at other models only to receive a lot of advice from non-models. I can not speak for the OP, except I believe those are the threads she is referring to. Peter is absolutely correct. It's the job of the reader to separate the pertinent from the irrelevant. An old quote, "Strawberries grow out of manure. The trick is to eat the strawberries without swallowing a lot of bullshit."
All IMHO as always, of course.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Farenell Photography wrote:
Its often a model's reaction to a perfectly well-thought out response - or more accurately, the inability to take it or diplomatically brush it aside that makes it a not "more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive" place (your own words).
There were so many different acceptable ways to address Mr House's response whether its to respectively disagree or elaborate on why he missed the point, yet you choose to go off on him. I'm sorry, that's on you. I chose my wording to be more abrasive. It's not my job to be the most diplomatic person and sure as hell that's on me.
That hardly counts as going off. I didn't swear, I contained my sentiments in a brief sentence, and the only thing that counts as abrasive is being sarcastic. If I feel like wording my thoughts in a certain way, it generally is with a purpose.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Farenell Photography wrote:
1. I could be mistaken but the last time I checked, a subject like breast implants wasn't limited to which side of the camera a person's on.
2. Its because a person is currently a photographer doesn't mean they were always like that.
3. There's nothing saying that a person has to accept all pieces of advice they're given in life. Accept what works for you/makes sense/whatever, reject what doesn't. I don't see what that's so hard.
4. People have been bemoaning why more models don't participate in the various online model/photography related forums at least for the past 10 years if not longer. The dynamic of their jobs are different. Most models I know are to damn busy trying to book work & generate an income (often on a site that is VERY unfriendly towards mobile devices) to bother participating in forums like MM. The dynamic of many photographer's jobs has our brains being sucked through a computer screen while we edit - forum time is like a brief distraction from that drudgery. I work 6-7 days of the week, and post on here between reading emails/classes/like things. Or, if I'm bored when I wake up 2 hours earlier than needed before work.
When I was traveling full time I didn't have the time or energy to participate on here, and yes many feel the same.
Oh no, I'm a non-traveling model now and know how to debate.
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2452
Syracuse, New York, US
Rays Fine Art wrote:
Peter is absolutely correct. It's the job of the reader to separate the pertinent from the irrelevant. An old quote, "Strawberries grow out of manure. The trick is to eat the strawberries without swallowing a lot of bullshit."
All IMHO as always, of course. I disagree, how does one separate the pertinent from the irrelevant when asking a question and looking for an answer and are inundated by opinions from a group of people you didn't address your request to and that in all likely hood doesn't have any first hand knowledge? When someone posts a thread and asks for responses from a particular group of people, be it models, photographers, retouchers or whomever they usually have a reason for that request. There also is an onus (or should be) on the purveyors of an opinion/answer to at least know something of what they are speaking rather than just shooting from the hip because they may have heard something once.
Photographer
SayCheeZ!
Posts: 20621
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
le chat dort wrote:
Why do you feel the need to speak for (female) models, when a question is asked of them in this forum? ahem
You didn't notice?
![https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/151129/18/565bb69582449.jpg]() I certainly believe without a doubt that if a female model asks "What's better, Pamprin or Midol?", the first few replies will be from male photographers in this forum. A few others will also pop in after a page or two to prove the first guys wrong.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Pamprin and Midol?!
I've heard of Canon vs. Nikon debates... That's just... Too much!!
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
le chat dort wrote:
I work 6-7 days of the week, and post on here between reading emails/classes/like things. Or, if I'm bored when I wake up 2 hours earlier than needed before work.
When I was traveling full time I didn't have the time or energy to participate on here, and yes many feel the same.
Oh no, I'm a non-traveling model now and know how to debate.
This post illustrative of another thing. You weren't really looking for an actual answer or debate. You were looking for an opinions that reaffirmed your worldview &, y'know, god forbid, the answers you received didn't meet that expectation.
So it begs the question, why ask it in the question in the first place & in the process waste everyone's time if you already know the answer?
[/rhetorical question]
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Farenell Photography wrote:
This post illustrative of another thing. You weren't really looking for an actual answer or debate. You were looking for an opinions that reaffirmed your worldview &, y'know, god forbid, the answers you received didn't meet that expectation.
So it begs the question, why ask it in the question in the first place & in the process waste everyone's time if you already know the answer?
[/rhetorical question] I'm making it pretty clear that I have my own biases and reactions to things in the forums based on my own personal experiences.
Where have I claimed to know everything or tried to speak for models or women/gender non-confirming people as a whole?
I welcome outside opinions, the world would be a boring place if we all agreed about everything.
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 5216
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US
I am fascinated by the assumed model v. men dichotomy
Wholly sexist Batman
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
NewBoldPhoto wrote:
I am fascinated by the assumed model v. men dichotomy
Wholly sexist Batman Oddly enough, today the people asking "the boss isn't in today?" (read: male manager) were women 
I've had mostly good experiences with male photographers and artists, but just looking at the first page of the model colloquy made me decide to post this. (eta: posting my own thread vs. derailing 3-4 threads on the first page)
It's a necessary self-defense mechanism to just put headphones on and not talk to anyone on the train. (and not to wear headphones walking alone at night, and to walk certain routes vs. others, etc.). I have to put aside my own defensive tactics to participate in the forums. The Internet is a very different situation than a late night bus
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17824
El Segundo, California, US
martin b wrote:
I love giving my opinion and I especially love giving advice even if I have no clue. Honesty is good.
Photographer
Pictures of Life
Posts: 792
Spokane, Washington, US
le chat dort wrote:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/typ … istic-men/
A few follow up questions:
Why do you feel the need to speak for (female) models, when a question is asked of them in this forum?
Why are so many of the posts in this forum and the rest of MM to kvetch about female models?
Nobody is obligated to give you the time of day or engage you. ***obvious and pointless, and confrontational***
Your opinion is not the most valuable or automatically the most correct. *** ditto What is your point? ***
Sometimes what you need to do is stop talking, reflect, and see if there is something on your end that can be done to solve a problem. (or maybe, ask advice from others!) *** could you please define your problem or topic ***
If none of these questions or comments apply to you, they were not directed to you! This is meant to start a dialogue and hopefully make the forums a happier place for all.
Questions to anyone who feels unsafe to post in the forums: ***was there a previous, unlinked thread that revealed people feel unsafe posting in the forums? ***
Can you describe why you feel unsafe posting in the forums?
Is there any advice you can give that would make the forums more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive?
Mods, I intended to post this in the model forum because that is the greatest concentration of posts I see, but feel free to move anywhere. ****Explain this. 'greatest concentration' of what?***
Signed,
Your resident gender-non-conforming model who is a wee bit tired of the shenanigans and found a relevant article this morning Absolutely confused, and a touch irritated. Start a thread titled 'A relevant article for (male) Photographers' then the complaining starts that photographers are trespassing in the Model's forum. The thread title is blatantly sexist, and links a man hating article apparently written for women who want to boost their Women's Privilege of always being right. Was this supposed to be an educational offering so photographers, sorry, (male) photographers can modify their inadequacies??? There is nothing but a downward spiral here. I'm glad Laura is back in the forums. Maybe she can drop by and bitch-slap some reality on this.
Photographer
alessandro2009
Posts: 8091
Florence, Toscana, Italy
Pictures of Life wrote:
Start a thread titled 'A relevant article for (male) Photographers' then the complaining starts that photographers are trespassing in the Model's forum. The thread title is blatantly sexist +1
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
the opinion piece, linked to, with very few changes, could be re-written to support just about anyone's specific agenda. +1
Confirming how generic sexist accusations end up being just a form of a masquerade hypocrisy.
le chat dort wrote:
Is there any advice you can give that would make the forums more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive? Ignore topic as this.
And in the creation of any other topic ignore don't constructive answers while accepting that is simply inevitable, in any form of participation, a bit of trash, proceeding, only when it is excessive, using the measurements indicated by the forum (so moderator).
Model
Figures Jen B
Posts: 790
Phoenix, Arizona, US
le chat dort wrote:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/typ … istic-men/
A few follow up questions:
Why do you feel the need to speak for (female) models, when a question is asked of them in this forum?
Why are so many of the posts in this forum and the rest of MM to kvetch about female models?
... This is a public forum, people will post regardless of their gender or the reason that brought them here. I am a photographer and a model and a female. I started posting up in the photography forum before I had a photography profile and guess what, I was welcomed and my questions were answered.
Thankfully I didn't get a lecture asking why I felt I needed to post in the forums.
fwiw, photographers that have been here a long time, or just shooting for a long time, have a lot of knowledge of model-life from the models and model friends they know and have known. Why discount their point of view just because 'they' aren't a model?
That is just dumb. Granted, if someone wants a model only perspective, they can wait around forever or they can accept all replies and pick and choose to read only the model ones if that is their preference.
Jen-resident fed up with reading models say that photographers they can't reply in model threads model, besides, when the last go round when MM tried to force photographers out of a model thread, in spring of 2014, really killed the forums anyways...
edit to add le chat dort wrote:
Questions to anyone who feels unsafe to post in the forums:
Can you describe why you feel unsafe posting in the forums?
Is there any advice you can give that would make the forums more welcoming/pleasant/inclusive?
Mods, I intended to post this in the model forum because that is the greatest concentration of posts I see, but feel free to move anywhere. Oh jeeze, this again. Okay, should we ALL just stay out of the model forums?? I will if it stops this crud. Why let one or two errant posters, (models or photographers,) ruin the reputation of all the great people here? Why tarnish everyone with the stain of a minority? Any advice to make the forums more welcoming, pleasant or inclusive??? Why hobble the whole group because of the behavior of a few?
Model
Figures Jen B
Posts: 790
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
My apologies. I thought there were a few points made, but neglected to validate the one point most important to you.
However, I must admit feeling slighted by your attempt to silence my voice when you say I "offer unqualified advice". You may not like, or agree with, my opinion, but that makes it no less valuable than any other.
I have a right to be heard and acknowledged as a worthwhile human being. ++ Yep.
Model
Figures Jen B
Posts: 790
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Don't get all butthurt about this. You didn't pay attention to what was being said, and it showed. You're digging in and still not making yourself part of the discussion.
Your opinion IS valuable and you do have a right to be heard. Nobody is silencing you. Complaints of persecution are unwarranted. Now please join the conversation.
(And I edited my post to clarify the point I was trying to make. It wasn't about you.) HA, ha, ha ha ha ha , oh heck.
Gut laughing.
/thread!! Ha.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
I think the fact people can't have a sane conversation about issues of sexism (which are pervasive throughout all levels of society, online and out in the regular world) is strongly indicative of its presence here.
It's just like how some people choose to be homophobic rather than deal with their own homosexual tendencies. Y'all would rather hide out in a closet somewhere and pretend the world is peachy. That is absolutely the best way to guarantee problems do not only not get solved, but become institutionalized and oppressive. Photographers bitching about how awful models (women) are has just become a way of life here.
I will be leaving MM at the end of the year, so I no longer have anything to lose by saying, I'm just sick of how models (women) are treated here in the forums. I get depressed reading the disrespectful crap.
And that's the end of my commentary regarding this subject.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
A few key points that were missed:
Not once have I advocated that photographers stay out of the model forum. I chose to make this thread instead of derailing a few threads on the first page; namely some unsolicited advice on how models should be polite and at least respond "no thanks" when a cold call message is given. Again, I chose to make a whole separate thread to create a whole new topic instead of derailing someone else's thread. I respected their right to have their own topic in this sub forum.
Did I once say all male photographers are guilty of these things, or that male photographers should stay out of the forums? Nope! In fact, in the first post I said that if none of the statements applied, that it was great and this thread was not intended to advise anyone who was doing a great job of keeping the forum a pleasant and constructive place. There are some male photographers that have great advice and I appreciate their participation here; however this, again, is not directed towards them. This is for the handful that feel the need to talk down to and talk over others, and was done as inoffensively as possible while still driving the point home that I'm irritated.
It's extremely irritating that by default, many artists I work with assume I know very little about art, and often talk down to me initially. One artist I work with constantly now had initially tried to explain how to find the light for a pose, and apologized and said, "oops, guess you know what you're doing!" it's a running joke now that he yells out, "wow, it's almost like you've done this before!" before the first pose of the night. I have my own set of biases and assumptions, but most of them revolve around, "hm, will this person try to assault me? Best to play it safe!". I've acknowledged multiple times in here that that is difficult to put aside in forums, and I consciously make sure I'm not giving a defensive gut reaction when posting. But making a thread aimed to say, "hey! These things are bothering me, I found this article to be appropriate and know it will start a conversation" is just that. A thread to start a conversation.
What a surprise that the point was missed and this thread was derailed.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Pictures of Life wrote:
Absolutely confused, and a touch irritated. Start a thread titled 'A relevant article for (male) Photographers' then the complaining starts that photographers are trespassing in the Model's forum. The thread title is blatantly sexist, and links a man hating article apparently written for women who want to boost their Women's Privilege of always being right. Was this supposed to be an educational offering so photographers, sorry, (male) photographers can modify their inadequacies??? There is nothing but a downward spiral here. I'm glad Laura is back in the forums. Maybe she can drop by and bitch-slap some reality on this. Why is me making a forum post deserving of being bitch slapped by another female model, who I have met personally many times and enjoy reading her posts in the forums? She often sees things differently than I, so I like seeing her take on topics, because I often gain insight. There are quite a few members I feel similarly towards. Why you feel that any sort of information should be delivered in a figurative act of violence is beyond me. Why do you feel that way?
Why is it that when a (usually male) photographer makes a post about "models should do xyz!" I am not supposed to get offended at their (often off base) unsolicited advice? Why is it that when I offer a rational statement it is met with anger or an eye roll? I've dealt with booking models myself, and whenever I do add to a topic along the lines of "why can't models be polite and respond no thanks?" with concise reasons why (as well as others on both sides of the lens giving similar advice), it is with the intent of improving a situation for the original poster and any reading who may feel similarly.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Koryn wrote:
I think the fact people can't have a sane conversation about issues of sexism (which are pervasive throughout all levels of society, online and out in the regular world) is strongly indicative of its presence here.
It's just like how some people choose to be homophobic rather than deal with their own homosexual tendencies. Y'all would rather hide out in a closet somewhere and pretend the world is peachy. That is absolutely the best way to guarantee problems do not only not get solved, but become institutionalized and oppressive. Photographers bitching about how awful models (women) are has just become a way of life here.
I will be leaving MM at the end of the year, so I no longer have anything to lose by saying, I'm just sick of how models (women) are treated here in the forums. I get depressed reading the disrespectful crap.
And that's the end of my commentary regarding this subject. Maybe once I get some sense bitch slapped into me I will know my place and be quiet?
By and large my experiences working with male photographers has been positive, but the forums have been a largely negative place. I often feel unsafe to post anything because I know that if I post anything along these lines, even civilly, it will be met with the behavior demonstrated amply in this thread.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Figures Jen B wrote:
HA, ha, ha ha ha ha , oh heck.
Gut laughing.
/thread!! Ha. You're welcome to join the conversation as well. Nobody (myself or Genevieve) have attempted to silence anyone, and still advocate that everyone is worthy of having an opinion. She stated it pretty eloquently and clearly, and so have I.
|
