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So I feel kind of burned right now;
So I feel kind of burned right now and I want to know if I was in the wrong so I can avoid it happening in the future. I had a paid shoot yesterday and I showed up and there was one other photographer there and instead of paying my rates he told me he paid for the studio and without him there would have been no shoot, he didn't tell me he wasn't paying me until we already shot. I asked the photographer I was planning to shoot with if it was only us and he said yes so I don't know if it was a last minute type of thing or if they already planned this. I asked him about being paid for future shoots this morning after he messaged me and said I was extremely appreciative of him paying for the studio but in the same sense I did pay for my makeup and hair to be done and he just called me drama and blocked me so I want to know what to do to avoid this in the future. Dec 31 15 07:18 am Link Stella Hart wrote: Go over your past communication with him and see if there is anything that sticks out as a warning sign that he'd act like this. You are so much better off having him block you. If he acted like this once he likely would again. Changing the terms of a shoot without notice on the day of is totally unprofessional and complete bs. Dec 31 15 07:26 am Link Ya I know a few guys like that here. They rent the studio space, heavily discounted because they bring in a nude model. Then they treat for lunch and enjoy the time with the model. They don't pay the model but they talk so much game you won't know it. They will try to make it a 5-10 hour shoot because they talk most of the time and give advice. I don't care for them and try to explain what they do so the model has the choice before they get involved. These photographers also brag that they don't pay models. The models love their work so much they do nude shoots for free. Dec 31 15 07:41 am Link if you are expecting to get paid maybe it's best to go over the terms again before the shoot and i know some models ask for the money upfront as well although some photographers prefer to pay at the end of the shoot. assuming what you describe is an accurate assessment of the situation it sounds like you got played. i'd report them to mayhem so there's a record of the poor behavior. Dec 31 15 07:53 am Link Never accept a job if you do not know exactly what the compensation will be in advance. Time has shown me that a good percentage of the photographers who will book you from the internet, tend to look at their shooting time as a social event. For the model, it's work, requiring shifting schedules around, commuting often hundreds of miles, making sure she has all the requested props and outfits. Sometimes, there is even a request that the model show up with a Brazilian wax, a professional manicure featuring acrylic nails, or both. Not for a client-driven shoot, where the photographer is already contracted to complete a project, mind you, just a test shoot for the sake of "creativity." These same photographers do not generally wish to pay models for their time, but they like to use the phrase "test" shoot, so that they do not have to send finished images to the model afterwards. So, for 4 or so hours, they get to have their own little private social event, with the model and possibly other collaborators as well. They might even bring another photographer, or a couple extra models with them to the location, because the more, the merrier. It's a fun afternoon of "creativity" for them, but lord forbid the model is new and needs those images for her portfolio, or the MUA agreed to work for trade, because neither will ever see the fruits of his/her labors. The Social Party Photographer will disappear into the nethersphere, never to be seen or heard from again. Dec 31 15 08:25 am Link Just to correct what might be a misconception based on some of the comments both here and elsewhere in the forums, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the model and the photographer interacting personally and socially while taking care of the business at hand, i.e. getting the shoot done. Indeed, it can be pretty hard to do good work if the atmosphere is unpleasant. That said, the terms and conditions of the shoot should always, always be understood and agreed to by everyone involved and there should be no changes from that agreement unless and until the change is also understood and agreed to by everyone concerned. And that new agreement includes"s everything: The time for the shoot, costumes, nudity, pay, who will shoot, everything. Without that agreement, there should be no shoot; everything should simply stop. There's a word in Yiddish that describes the photographer(s) you describe (Yiddish has some of the best insults  ) That word is "schnorrer" and it means someone always looking for a handout, literally "someone who eats off your plate" If you were in a movie theater, munching away on your popcorn, and someone came up and reached into your popcorn and grabbed a handful, saying "I paid for my ticket, so I can share your popcorn." would you tolerate it? Of course not! Nor should you here. Another good Yiddish word to describe him would be "Schmuck", a contemptible or worthless person All IMHO as always, of course. Dec 31 15 10:30 am Link Stella Hart wrote: Am I understanding this right? It sounds like Photographer A contacted you and agreed to pay you for your time, and you asked him before the shoot if it was only going to be you two shooting and he said that was the case. When you arrived Photographer B was there (but you didn't know he would be) and said he was going to shoot with you too because he paid for the studio. Then after the shoot Photographer A paid you as agreed, but Photographer B did not. Then you contacted Photographer B and asked if he booked you again if he would be paying you for future shoots and thanked him for booking the studio for the shoot that he didn't pay for, but let him know that you had expenses too, then he blocked you. I kind of filled in some blanks based on guesses, so let me know if I'm wrong. Dec 31 15 10:37 am Link Dekilah wrote: This is also the way I read the post. Were you expecting to be paid for a full day of modeling by each of the photographers. I know that some models have a higher rate when more than one photographer is working. In some circumstances, I can understand why; but in other circumstances it does not appear the the model will be working more if two photographers are working. However, I do agree that if there were going to be two photographers working, you should have been told in advance. For one thing, you never had the opportunity to communicate with photographer B prior to the shoot to find out what he's like and what content he was expecting to shoot (if different than photographer A). Dec 31 15 11:13 am Link You were treated badly. In a shoot were someone is paying you, unless otherwise agreed, they are providing the location, whether public or private, so it is not relevant for anyone to bring it up when you arrive. Clearly, you were for hire. In future, significant deviations from an agreement, should lead to cancelling. I know you needed the money and you heard perhaps what you wanted to hear "I paid for the studio . . . " and perhaps became: he was there because he paid for the studio but would pay you. It would have better to tell them what to do with the studio. Sometimes you have bring out your inner bitch or reveal that you know how to be a total bastard. Margaret Thatcher could be very clear when presented with something she didn't like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4 and if you applied her logic to your situation you would negotiate very strongly. You're not at fault. You were presented with a confusing situation and the communication appears to be a deliberate manipulation of your good will. I don't know if much can be achieved through MM, but it would be good for other models to know that the original photographer presented a situation that is not straight shooting. It was amateur hour at your expense. Oh, Happy New Year's Eve to you and everyone else in this thread. Dec 31 15 12:41 pm Link ontherocks wrote: +1 Dec 31 15 12:42 pm Link From what I am reading, I think there was a communication breakdown and the photographer that hired you was in grey area. There should had been clear definition of who is shooting and who is paying. When you arrived and as soon as you saw the "other" photographer shooting, you should immediately address that by either clarifying and deciding if he should be allowed to shoot or not because he has nothing to do with you even if he paid for the place. You then can decide to accept the reasoning or stop the shoot because you did not feel comfortable but.... but... at same time, you did not specify only one photographer. I have come across your scenario a few times where photographers do not have studio and either cannot afford or do not want to pay for studio cost. they likely know someone like another photographer that either have access to one at discount or owns a place and made agreements up-front to let them use the place and they can also shoot with model. Personally nothing is wrong with this except that the model should had been made aware of this dealing as not everyone is comfortable with multiple photographers. Dec 31 15 01:03 pm Link I'm sorry for your difficulties. I also apologize in advance if my advice is not helpful. In general, any modeling business is 10% modeling and 90% business. Part of that "business" is developing the discipline & skills to negotiate terms, to document terms, and to avoid misunderstandings. My advice: create a checklist with the questions you want discussed before agreeing to work with anyone. Some questions you might want to consider adding to your own personal checklist might include... ... Date & time of the shoot? ... Location of the shoot? ... Length of time of the shoot? ... What do you need to prepare before arriving at the shoot? What should you bring? ... Who (besides the photographer & yourself) will be present? ... Will there be a hair stylist and/or a makeup artist there? ... How are you being compensated? ... If you are being paid, how much are you being paid? ... If you are being paid, how are you being paid (e.g. cash, personal check, money order, PayPal, etc.)? ... If you are being paid, are you also being granted usage license for any of the images? ... When will you be compensated? ... If you are working for a TF* session: --- How many images will you be given? --- When will the images be delivered? --- What can you do with the images? (e.g. usage restrictions) --- Who chooses the images? --- What format will the delivered images be in (e.g. RAW, edited, unedited, watermarked, etc.)? ... What name / stage name of yours should the photographer use when posting images featuring you? And so on. If it is potentially important to you, you should cover it. More importantly, you should document it (in an e-mail exchange), so that there is no confusion later. There is not a lot you can do to make other people behave, but there is a ton of things you can do to manage your own behavior. I've lived a long time, and I've had my share of misunderstandings like yours. There isn't a lot you can do after the fact, but there is a lot you can do ahead of time to avoid such misunderstandings. That's me. One of my mottoes is "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Sorry, and good luck with your future endeavors. Dec 31 15 01:04 pm Link Dekilah wrote: I think that your complaint is with Photographer A. He made an agreement to let B join the shoot if B paid for the studio and A did not tell you in advance. Dec 31 15 01:05 pm Link Sad story. It sounds like you were taken advantage of, but it's something you also could have avoided by simply verifying the terms rather than assuming the terms one photographer agreed to would be automatically accepted without discussion by another photographer. Most of the issues that come up here regarding pay, images received, etc. would never come up if people specifically verified terms rather than make assumptions. Consider it a lesson learned and move on. In the future always discuss the terms of a shoot with the photographer in question before doing a shoot. Dec 31 15 01:06 pm Link Stella Hart wrote: it's professional to be very precise and clear about a job. first you set all the important parameters. then, when the parameters change - you immediately renegotiate. Dec 31 15 01:08 pm Link Never take a job you can't afford (monetarily or otherwise) to walk away from. Photographer A should have told you he traded modeling services (without your consent!) to Photographer B in exchange for studio time. You should have said upon seeing another photographer, "Hey this wasn't discussed. What's going on?" And then once they explain that A got the studio by promising B your free services, decide whether it's worth the studio to stay. Personally I would have walked. Because I don't like being played or lied to by omission, or simply dealing with someone too stupid to understand that he CANNOT promise my work to someone else without consulting me first. In fact HE can't promise my work to anyone period. Someone else might feel it's OK, it's worth having the studio, and stay. Neither is "right." Dec 31 15 01:23 pm Link There are really a lot of questions the OP has not come back and answered. For illustration purposes, say the shoot was scheduled for 3 hours at $100/hr. Did photographer A split the time with photographer B and each shoot about 1.5 hours and the OP get paid the agreed $300? Or did the time get extended? I agree that deviations from the original agreement should be renegotiated, but since that did not happen, what someone paid for the studio or what the OP paid for hair and makeup are strawman arguments on both sides. The OP was apparently happy with the original pay arrangement and her hair and makeup expense. So yes, it would have been appropriate for the original photographer to have discussed bringing in a second shooter in advance, but since she didn't question anything or stop the shoot at the beginning to get clarification, that was water under the table. Really the only real question is whether SHE received the agreed upon amount for the agreed upon time. Dec 31 15 01:56 pm Link For me, it wouldn't matter if, e.g., the shoot was for two hours for one photographer and instead turned into one hour each for two. The first guy had no right to bring someone else in for me to work for without asking me. What if he brought in three others, for 30 minutes each? Or 19 others and everyone got six minutes each, for the same pay. The way I see it, "A" didn't have the right to trade the model's services to "B" in order to pay for the studio. She's not an indentured servant. If a model was OK with it even upon finding out at the last minute, cool. But it's not the right of "A" to just decide on his own that's how things are going to be so that he can save on studio costs. Dec 31 15 02:02 pm Link Man, that's some bullshit. Don't know what to say but I'd be pissed if I was you. Sound like typical clowns. Dec 31 15 02:34 pm Link ME_retouching wrote: You obviously didn't read my post very thoroughly. I agree with you and said it was not appropriate for the photographer to pull that switch. But SHE had the opportunity to question it at the beginning and could have either said keep to the original agreement or she could have walked out. The photographer was certainly wrong, but she accepted the situation as it was presented and went ahead with the shoot. Dec 31 15 04:46 pm Link If you arrived and someone else was there simply walk away. Thats an obvious red flag of something going bad..... Dec 31 15 04:47 pm Link Stella Hart wrote: On the facts that you present, neither photographer comes out of this looking good. At best, they are guilty of sloppy communication. At worst, they colluded to take advantage of you. Dec 31 15 04:59 pm Link Eye of the World wrote: Yes I did. Stop thinking it's all about you. You'll sleep better. Dec 31 15 05:54 pm Link Gerardo Martinez wrote: best answer so far! Jan 01 16 04:34 am Link Future shoots: get the money prior to it starting. It was an unfortunate case of a Photographer who mislead you (not everyone is like that, of course). Either PayPal in advance or get the money from the Photographer via Cash before commencing the paid work. Jan 01 16 06:05 am Link This photographer is just being an ass. Expecting a professional to honor the agreed price is not drama. There are 2 easy steps you can take to avoid problems just like this. 1) 50% deposit to confirm the shoot. 2) Get paid for the expected time before the shoot starts. Don't let one asswipe get to you. Jan 01 16 07:14 am Link Both photographers need their asses beat. But that's just me. Lived in Brooklyn too long... Jan 01 16 10:08 am Link Thank you all so much for these responses! I will definitely be more clear with communications in the future and learn how to walk away from a shoot. Really thank you so much for this insight! And a Happy New Year to you! ♡ Jan 01 16 11:36 am Link OP...be ready to walk away if your getting taken advantage of. Jan 02 16 07:09 am Link Stella Hart wrote: This is why I get things in writing as well and ask up front. I was burned like this before too. This is bad business. I hope you tell future models about their antics. Jan 02 16 10:05 am Link Were you paid your rate for the time you were there? It's a little fucky that A didn't tell you B would be there, but if you got paid you got paid. If a model poses for a workshop or something, she isn't paid her rate by each photographer there. If you didn't get paid period...you've got to learn to speak up for yourself. Jan 02 16 11:43 am Link Mark C Smith wrote: I agree with this. Jan 02 16 12:13 pm Link David Kirk wrote: Because her rate was for a shoot with one photographer, not two, and she specifically asked if there would only be one photographer there and was told "yes". Then, when she got there, there were two photographers and one of them said he had paid for the studio, so she could not refuse to shoot with him. Jan 02 16 01:21 pm Link I can see both side here but the bottom line is that Photographer A was not fully transparent with you about what he wanted to do. If Photographer B was to be there and his contribution was the location then that should have been communicated to you in advance of the shoot. Also I think you should have been given the opportunity to decide if you want to allow two Photographer's to shoot you at your rate. Some Model's want one Photographer per shoot while others don't care as they are getting paid for a certain amount of time whether its 1 photographer or 50 photographers. Jan 02 16 02:30 pm Link David Kirk wrote: You can flip this and say I got hired to shoot one model but when I arrived their were two models there and since the second model drove the first model to the shoot I now have to shoot her as well. They'll split the first models time and it's okay with her because she's paying me. Umm, I think not. I shoot two models I get paid for each unless this arrangement is agreed upon ahead of time. Jan 02 16 02:59 pm Link Stella Hart wrote: The easiest way to avoid this in the future is to not make assumptions about a situation, especially in a case like this where the situation wasn't something that was discussed beforehand. Jan 02 16 05:17 pm Link Victoria Elle wrote: This is a pretty good encapsulation of the issue. At least in the real world. (I'd qualify that a model's rate is a combination of usage and hours, but that's nitpicking and I don't think when Elle wrote this she meant to say anything different - just qualifying for others). Jan 02 16 05:30 pm Link It looks like there's some interesting miscommunication going on in this thread. Please ignore the people who are trying to tell you this was your fault - it sounds as if you specifically asked and were told there would be no second shooter, and even if you hadn't it's not fair for a photographer to assume that means it's ok. That is not common practice. In the future, here is some information that might help and some steps you can take: -You can explicitly say in your bio/on your website that second shooters need to be discussed (I do this on my website, and you're welcome to use some of my wording if you'd like.) It's important to keep notes like this positive though - no one wants to shoot a model who comes across as overly negative or uses all caps. -Understand that if two photographers are shooting you at the same time it's very rare to get full payment from both. Some models will let photographers split a shoot for no extra charge, but that's also rare. 25-50 percent extra per each extra photographer seems standard if both photographers are shooting at the same time. They each get a discount while still paying you fairly. (Group shoots don't follow this pricing. They're a whole different ballgame...) -Shooting with multiple photographers at once is extremely different from one on one shoots. You don't have to do it at all if you don't want to. -If you show up to a shoot and a photographer has changed the terms, it's best to renegotiate up front. I understand that you were in a difficult situation and it sounds like you did your best in the moment. In the future, however, it is ok to cancel or reschedule the shoot if you're uncomfortable with the situation and/or they won't agree to your terms. It is not overly dramatic for you to insist on extra payment for a second shooter who wasn't agreed on ahead of time, even if they paid for the studio. That's on the photographer you arranged the shoot with, not on you. But, once you go ahead with the shoot you are implicitly agreeing to the new terms that were sprung on you, even if you have not done so verbally. If you expect the new second shooter to pay you that needs to be explicitly agreed on before the first shoot is taken. -If I understand correctly photographer B blocked you when you inquired about him booking you in the future after he got his free work. That's not a huge deal, it just means that he's only interested in shooting for free and doesn't need to be on your radar anyway. -What you can do now is send a polite message to photographer A (if you're still on good terms), inquiring as to what happened to his promise of no extra shooters and asking him not to spring a surprise like that on you again. Don't request extra payment - your ability to do so ended when you went ahead with the shoot anyway, and it's not fair to expect him to pay you extra at this point for what he probably thinks was just a minor miscommunication. His response should tell you whether or not he's worth trying to book with again. I hope this helps! Feel free to ask questions if you need me to clarify anything. Jan 02 16 06:01 pm Link As mentioned above, get terms in writing, in advance. Your agreement was with Photographer A to shoot for a certain time for an agreed amount. When you arrived, discovering additional Photographer B, you had the choice (before shooting) to call broken agreement, & leave, or renegotiate terms with each, & who pays. The studio rental is not your concern. Your agreement was with Photographer A. If you agree to let Photographer B shoot, your financial agreement is still with Photographer A, who has agreed to the payment of the full amount, which he still owes you. If he turns around and "sells" part of the shoot to Photographer B, that is between them, and is how A should try to recoup some funds. If, between them, they agree on a consideration for the studio, that's fine, but should, in no way, affect you or your payment. As mentioned above, get terms in writing, in advance. Jan 02 16 10:11 pm Link Just curious, was this shoot arranged on facebook? Sounds like it probably was. Jan 02 16 10:39 pm Link |
