RisaDelAngele wrote:
Hey all,

I would like some advice on a trade shoot I did that maybe will help out other models and photographers....

A week ago I did a TFP photo shoot. I did my research beforehand, researching the photographer (who was also the designer of the clothes I was to model), looked up previous models for references, etc. The photographer's work looked pretty good and I wanted to test out some new looks for myself. We explicitly agreed I would get high-res images in exchange for my time modeling.

During the shoot, the photographer was extremely disorganized, had the MUA and me wait for an hour and a half as she went about buying things and running errands, the actual shoot was rushed and she tried to make me stay later than we agreed. As I was about to leave as I needed to get to my job, she wanted me to walk with her down to another building where she kept her model release form for me to sign. I told her once again that I didn't have any time left but I would sign it if she had it right then and there, or that she could email it to me.

A few days later I get a preview of the unedited photos, and they look terrible. Most of them are blurry, the angles are weird and taken mid-pose. I can't tell if they are high-res because of my limited access to just view them, but they don't seem to be high-res like we agreed. Definitely NOT the caliber of pictures I saw in her portfolio!

I understand good shoots are never guaranteed with a trade shoot, and I'm not complaining about that. I know a not-so-pleasant experience is bound to happen at some point. My question is actually, now she emailed me the release form a week after the shoot; would it be wrong of me to not sign it? In my view, she agreed to high-res photos for me, that's what I am supposed to get out of it, but I don't think I'll have any high-res or good photos to use for my portfolio. The release form also has some very odd, non-standard clauses that make me feel uncomfortable.
At first, she actually wanted me to come all the way back into the city (I live 2 hours away) just to sign her release form. But I honestly don't want these pictures of me out there. Should I not sign, or suck it up and sign it anyway, and just don't use the photos for myself? I would like some advice on what is professional, I'm still learning the business side of the industry.

Thanks a ton!

Blessings xox

Let me begin by offering my apology on behalf of the photographer who did this to you. I am nowhere related to her, but as someone wielding the camera, I belong to the same pool as she was.

Now reading through your travails and trials, the question that pops into my mind is were those pictures that you saw while checking the photographer out were really hers, or taken by someone else while showcasing her clothes. Evidently her distress and disarray during the shoot compels me to think otherwise, someone with previous experience would totally know how difficult it is to manage time during a shoot, with MU and changes. My best guess is that she was a novice, and had no idea about shooting in the first place.

As per the agreement, you were supposed to receive high-res images (quantity and timelines??), but the ones that you received are not as per satisfaction. My reaction (totally mine, and not to be construed as an advice) would be to refuse the model release, and suck up the fact that those few hours of my life are as well as gone, flushed down!! Once you sign the model release, maybe you get a few more pictures which are allegedly high-res and stuff, but the photographer uses the best pictures for her own benefit.

So, my advice is to say no to the release, gulp down the sheer disappointment, and move on to the next venture of your glorious life.

I wish you well. Cheers!!

PhotoKromze wrote:
Let me begin by offering my apology on behalf of the photographer who did this to you. I am nowhere related to her, but as someone wielding the camera, I belong to the same pool as she was.

What is in for you that you need to apologize for the other photographer?  Being nice is one thing, this is beyond the common sense.  Are your a white knight?  What is your motive?

Connor Photography wrote:

What is in for you that you need to apologize for the other photographer?  Being nice is one thing, this is beyond the common sense.  Are your a white knight?  What is your motive?

I'm no knight, got no clue about a motive, and definitely far beyond when common sense is concerned

RisaDelAngele wrote:
I understand good shoots are never guaranteed with a trade shoot, and I'm not complaining about that. I know a not-so-pleasant experience is bound to happen at some point. My question is actually, now she emailed me the release form a week after the shoot; would it be wrong of me to not sign it? In my view, she agreed to high-res photos for me, that's what I am supposed to get out of it, but I don't think I'll have any high-res or good photos to use for my portfolio. The release form also has some very odd, non-standard clauses that make me feel uncomfortable.

First, this is why you always ask for a copy of the release beforehand. Whenever I'm coordinating a shoot I make sure that a copy is sent to a model at least a few days in advance and I advise them to read it and to print out a copy for comparison purposes the day of the shoot. This may be a practice you want to adopt in the future to avoid any non-standard clauses etc.

Second, in my opinion (which I realize will be unpopular) you are in the wrong if you don't sign the release. Based on what you describe there were numerous instances during the shoot where red flags should have gone up e.g. the photographer delaying the shoot, the photographer being unorganized, and yet rather than leave at any of those points you chose to say. In making that choice to stay you utilized the time and resources of both the photographer and the MUA, and while the pictures may not be "good" I'm almost 100% certain that wasn't the explicit promise. The explicit promise likely guaranteed you the usage of hi-res images in exchange for your time and while they may not be to your taste, hell, while they may even be "bad" there may be 1-2 that will benefit the MUA who based on your account did nothing wrong and shouldn't be penalized because you're upset after seeing the previews.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
OP, sign the release.   The photographers problems aren't yours.   She did the shoot.   She provided the work and while I get you aren't happy with the results you made a promise.   So honor your side of the bargain.   Its not likely that bad photos will hurt you.   I've seen awful work of working professional fashion models.   Your book is mostly the only one that will matter.   You don't have to meet.   She can snail mail a copy of the release and while NY is more strict about releases a email giving your consent should be fine.   Sometimes test sessions don't work out.   Even paid sessions can go south.

Don't listen to members who encourage you to charge after a failed shoot.   That's unprofessional and wrong.

+1.

When I look at images, I can recognize if the problems with it are the fault of the model or the photographer. I don't blame models for poor photography when I see it. You had an agreement. As a photographer, I'd be unlikely to send hi-res images before I had a signed release either.

Also, without a lot more detail on the "mysterious clauses" in the release, I'm not really sure how anyone could advise you on that. Just because you may not have seen them before, they could be perfectly standard, or maybe not.

DespayreFX wrote:

+1.

When I look at images, I can recognize if the problems with it are the fault of the model or the photographer. I don't blame models for poor photography when I see it. You had an agreement. As a photographer, I'd be unlikely to send hi-res images before I had a signed release either.

Also, without a lot more detail on the "mysterious clauses" in the release, I'm not really sure how anyone could advise you on that. Just because you may not have seen them before, they could be perfectly standard, or maybe not.

The bolded is astute, ignore my previous advice on this matter until you have gotten professional, experienced advice as to the exact clauses in question.

RisaDelAngele wrote:
... I hadn't thought about what the MUA would need and I don't want to screw anyone over, especially because she did do her job..

On that point, you could just give a model release that you do approve of to the MUA only, and specifying that they are only released for the MUA's self-promotion. You could even ask her beforehand which photos she is interested in using, if you are fearful that they will also be bad ones. If they are OK, just tailor the release to specify that only those photos are being released.

As to whether or not the photographer also shot the photos shown in her portfolio, perhaps there is some way to find out, maybe via using TinEye or a similar search tool, or maybe through asking her directly. If she dodges the issue, or in fact posted someone else's photography of her fashions, then I'd say that takes you off the hook as far as giving her a model-release, since she would have been less-than-forthright about what was being traded for.

Modelphilia wrote:
On that point, you could just give a model release that you do approve of to the MUA only, and specifying that they are only released for the MUA's self-promotion. You could even ask her beforehand which photos she is interested in using, if you are fearful that they will also be bad ones. If they are OK, just tailor the release to specify that only those photos are being released.

Keep in mind that the model doesn't own these images, the photographer does and as such the model is in no position to stipulate after she agreed to a TF shoot that now the only person who can use them is the MUA. As a photographer would you agree to such terms? Beyond that I'm sure you understand that the images that are good for an MUA aren't always the same images that benefit the model or photographer, and just because the model doesn't like all of the preview images she's seen, it doesn't mean that the photographer doesn't like them or that there aren't a couple that even the model would be pleased with once edited.While it's unfortunate in this case that the model isn't happy, it's of no benefit to her or her reputation to start making demands after the parameters of the shoot were already agreed upon.

PhotoKromze wrote:
Let me begin by offering my apology on behalf of the photographer who did this to you. I am nowhere related to her, but as someone wielding the camera, I belong to the same pool as she was.

Now reading through your travails and trials, the question that pops into my mind is were those pictures that you saw while checking the photographer out were really hers, or taken by someone else while showcasing her clothes. Evidently her distress and disarray during the shoot compels me to think otherwise, someone with previous experience would totally know how difficult it is to manage time during a shoot, with MU and changes. My best guess is that she was a novice, and had no idea about shooting in the first place.

As per the agreement, you were supposed to receive high-res images (quantity and timelines??), but the ones that you received are not as per satisfaction. My reaction (totally mine, and not to be construed as an advice) would be to refuse the model release, and suck up the fact that those few hours of my life are as well as gone, flushed down!! Once you sign the model release, maybe you get a few more pictures which are allegedly high-res and stuff, but the photographer uses the best pictures for her own benefit.

So, my advice is to say no to the release, gulp down the sheer disappointment, and move on to the next venture of your glorious life.

I wish you well. Cheers!!

Makes me wonder if the photographer bailed on her and rather than say so, she just pushed forward. Sounds like it was chaos all around. OP, why not call the photographer and have a conversation to ask her how she felt the shoot went, (do not offer any critique, just get a feel for if the photographer was just a bit bat crazy that day or every day.) Choose your options after that. Maybe.

edit: choose your options of how you want to handle this but, I agree with everyone that says to sign the release, you did the shoot. The point to Back out would have been before hand, (normally you would've signed the release before shooting anyway and by proceeding with the shoot I feel that you consented.) Although I have signed afterwards and it is my own belief that doing the shoot, after the documented email, text and pm pre shoot conversations, gives consent to the shoot.

Jen

Maxximages wrote:
Don't sign the release until she provides the pics you want, the release is your only leverage to get the pics at this point.

Tell her to send the pics you agreed to and you will sign the release.

As a photographer would you agree to this? Probably not, because editing images takes time and in giving models images without a signed release you'd be setting yourself up for potential future issues.

The photographer in this instance supplied the model with preview images, the fact that the model isn't happy with all of the images (implying that maybe 1-2 were okay) is unfortunate but doesn't give her the right to now add caveats to an agreement that was already in place.

Loki Studio wrote:
You should simply do your best to live up to the original terms of the shoot: sign the model release and ask the photographer how or when you will receive the hi res images.  The photo you saw may just be a preview, and the hi res file just a click away. Signing the MR in person is not reasonable or required. Just print and sign it, take a photo with your phone, and email the photo of the signed copy back to the designer.  If the release has some very weird non-standard language, then cross it out before you sign.  If the photographer does not deliver the hi res images, then remind her that it was part of your deal.

I'm sorry that you are disappointing with the results, but being a professional means following through with your commitments completely even after a difficult shoot.  Anyone suggesting you not sign the model release in retaliation for bad images is not a professional.

Exactly what I suggested, check the release for unacceptable clauses, delete those, sign it and move on with life.

It really is not a big deal, much ado about nothing.

Tiffany_B wrote:
As a photographer would you agree to this? Probably not, because editing images takes time and in giving models images without a signed release you'd be setting yourself up for potential future issues.

The photographer in this instance supplied the model with preview images, the fact that the model isn't happy with all of the images (implying that maybe 1-2 were okay) is unfortunate but doesn't give her the right to now add caveats to an agreement that was already in place.

the op says....
"A few days later I get a preview of the unedited photos, and they look terrible. Most of them are blurry, the angles are weird and taken mid-pose. I can't tell if they are high-res because of my limited access to just view them, but they don't seem to be high-res like we agreed. Definitely NOT the caliber of pictures I saw in her portfolio! "


but shes seen the pix, they are all lousey. so why bother?

Shadow Dancer wrote:

Exactly what I suggested, check the release for unacceptable clauses, delete those, sign it and move on with life.

It really is not a big deal, much ado about nothing.

good idea!

The F-Stop wrote:

the op says....
"A few days later I get a preview of the unedited photos, and they look terrible. Most of them are blurry, the angles are weird and taken mid-pose. I can't tell if they are high-res because of my limited access to just view them, but they don't seem to be high-res like we agreed. Definitely NOT the caliber of pictures I saw in her portfolio! "


but shes seen the pix, they are all lousey. so why bother?

It's really simple, this is the cost of an education in doing business as an independent contractor. It seems a small price to pay to maintain one's integrity. She agreed to something and things went awry. Next time she will have more ducks in a row to start with, eventually the process will be smooth and simple.

If none of us ever made any mistakes, how would we learn?

The F-Stop wrote:
the op says....
"A few days later I get a preview of the unedited photos, and they look terrible. Most of them are blurry, the angles are weird and taken mid-pose. I can't tell if they are high-res because of my limited access to just view them, but they don't seem to be high-res like we agreed. Definitely NOT the caliber of pictures I saw in her portfolio! "


but shes seen the pix, they are all lousey. so why bother?

The OP says the pictures look terrible that doesn't necessarily mean that they are terrible, just that they're not to her particular taste. She also clearly states that based on her limited vantage she can't tell if they're high res so the issue of blurring could very easily be a matter of the photographer putting up super low res preview images.

Beyond that, the model is not the only person involved in this shoot, there was an MUA on set too and some of the shots may be viable to that individual but there's a very real chance that the photographer won't release them unless there's a signed model release.

It's unfortunate that the model is unhappy with the shots she's seen but this 1) doesn't mean that the previews show all of the images or even the best images and 2) if she agreed to sign a model release then she should follow through. There are simply times when for whatever reason we don't get usable images, or as many usable images as we hopes.

RisaDelAngele wrote:
A few days later I get a preview of the unedited photos, and they look terrible. Most of them are blurry, the angles are weird and taken mid-pose.

The issue is not whether to sign the release, but when to sign it.

The model release usually contains an acknowledgement by the model that she/he has received "valuable consideration", which can be anything of value.  In a TF shoot, the valuable consideration is photos.

Models usually sign a release at the start of the shoot because it is simpler for the photographer and the model trusts the photographer to deliver suitable photos.

However, in this case, the model did not sign the release beforehand, but has now seen blurred, oddly composed photos that raise serious doubts as to whether the photographer is capable of delivering the valuable consideration promised.

My advice to the model is to delay signing the release until such time as she has seen photos that she is happy to accept as compensation for her time.

RisaDelAngele wrote:
I hadn't thought about what the MUA would need and I don't want to screw anyone over, especially because she did do her job.

It is unfortunate if the MUA loses out, but, if the photos truly are blurred, they are damaged goods that will be as useless to the MUA as they are to you.

Rob Photosby wrote:

It is unfortunate if the MUA loses out, but, if the photos truly are blurred, they are damaged goods that will be as useless to the MUA as they are to you.

While that is true, it is also true that not signing the release could result in the photographer shifting blame to the model.

No point in damaging the relationship with the MUA, negativity tends to spread more pervasively than good will.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know I'm a broken record but its important to honor your agreements.   What if the session had gone very well yet the photographer decided not to share the results with the OP for some odd reason.   What would members say.   Not every shoot will go well.   However what makes me sad is how many people feel its okay to not honor  arrangements.   Why do so many shooters see no value in fellow photographers.   How can we expect models to respect us when we have so little respect for each other.   These threads don't exist in a vacuum.   Models see this and think, well I shouldn't sign a release if I don't like the pictures.

When members say that photographers should just remove images that models no longer want shown.   When some say that flakes are on the photographer and its fine not to honor deals.   We all suffer.

+1

I'm shocked by the number of photographers in this thread suggesting that either the model not sign or that she only do so if some ridiculous extra demands are met.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know I'm a broken record but its important to honor your agreements. ...  Models see this and think, well I shouldn't sign a release if I don't like the pictures.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you about the importance of honouring agreements and keeping one's word, but that applies to both sides of the agreement.

A TF shoot is expected to supply images that are useful to both parties.  Images that are blurred are unlikely to meet that criterion.

In this case, the model has expressed doubts about the ability of the photographer to keep the photographer's side of the bargain and much of the advice that she has received has been to delay signing until such time as she has suitable assurance.  That simply amounts to prudent regard for protecting her interests with no suggestion that the model should abrogate her side of the deal unless and until it becomes clear that the photographer will not honour or is not capable of honouring his side of the deal.