Shadow Dancer wrote:
$300 is a random figure I chose to make a point. How do you know if the client has no money if you don't ask? It could have been $300,000, the point is the same.

I understand the randomness in the figure but you missed the point in my reply. It is not my business if the client has money or not. My business is if the client pays for the service and if he pays as much as I need to cover my expenses.

She just lost a client who had a large number of images to retouch. Re-read my post, I did not suggest she lower her price. I suggested she offer to complete an amount of work based on what is available in the client's budget.

I get a lot of requests for "large number of images" and I reject them. Working according to client's budget is budget retouching, not high quality retouching.

Retouching is very competitive. Getting your foot in the door and establishing relationships is an edge over the all or nothing approach. If you don't need it, lucky you.

I am not in a competition with anyone.

Playing all or nothing is fine if you are already too busy to keep up. Otherwise, it usually leads to - nothing.

I would rather have a rest than work for nickels and dimes. There is so much work and retouching is not the only thing I can do.

Are all of your clients one time only or do you get repeat business?

I respect my clients and am I not interested in revealing any information about them, even in a indirect and anonymous way. Learn from that and you will get repeated business.

anchev wrote:
Learn from that and you will get repeated business.

We will agree to disagree. It seems you have made a nice place for yourself in retouching and I congratulate you for that achievement.

I do not speak in specifics about long term customers, I do speak to obtaining and retaining clients when it is possible to do so. I have many established relationships (not as a photographer, which is a hobby) and do not disrespect their privacy so I wonder how you arrived at your last rather pompous statement.

You seem inflexibly set in your ways and also it seems intent on misinterpreting my words. I am guessing that is either because you live a very different life than I do and do not wish to understand that there is more than only your way to achieve success, or you simply prefer to feel like you have won an rather pointless argument.

Either way, I was not originally addressing you, I do hope the OP will consider everything that people have posted in this thread and come to her own conclusions.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
We will agree to disagree. It seems you have made a nice place for yourself in retouching and I congratulate you for that achievement.

I do not speak in specifics about long term customers, I do speak to obtaining and retaining clients when it is possible to do so. I have many established relationships (not as a photographer, which is a hobby) and do not disrespect their privacy so I wonder how you arrived at your last rather pompous statement.

You seem inflexibly set in your ways and also it seems intent on misinterpreting my words. I am guessing that is either because you live a very different life than I do and do not wish to understand that there is more than only your way to achieve success, or you simply prefer to feel like you have won an rather pointless argument.

Either way, I was not originally addressing you, I do hope the OP will consider everything that people have posted in this thread and come to her own conclusions.

It seems to me you are the one misinterpreting. Of course you have put the question directly to me so I answered truthfully. Truth is not an argument.

"obtain and retain clients when it is possible to do so" - isn't that quite a pompous statement? Do you look at people like something to be obtained or retained for the purpose of "achieving success"? I don't. I just do some kind of work to make a living. Just like many other people.

anchev wrote:
"obtain and retain clients when it is possible to do so" - isn't that quite a pompous statement? Do you look at people like something to be obtained or retained for the purpose of "achieving success"? I don't. I just do some kind of work to make a living. Just like many other people.

So to you is not important to keep your clients and make sure they come back with more work? If the answer is no to that... good luck with your business and it actually says a lot about how much you care for your "profession"

The Invisible Touch wrote:
So to you is not important to keep your clients and make sure they come back with more work? If the answer is no to that... good luck with your business and it actually says a lot about how much you care for your "profession"

What I am saying is:

I am not playing tricks to hold anyone. I give the best I can give and everyone is free to come and go at any time. If I am trying to "keep them" or "make sure they come back with more" I am obviously putting myself in a position to depend on them and in this way exploiting them. I don't want to exploit anyone and if that makes me unprofessional in your eyes - I am not at all concerned. So better stop following me with your genial conclusions on everything I say in each and every thread. I have blocked you in PM because of this attitude of yours.

a k mac wrote:
Well, Javi, you gave it your best shot - but he just won't listen. Hopefully the majority of those reading the comments can see through it!

It's a shame the rules of this forum seem to encourage people to pose as professional authorities when there is such glaring evidence in their portfolios that they are rank amateurs.

I would suggest to anyone who is genuinely interested in learning from this forum that they check out the work of the contributors rather than just blindly accepting what they say.

Alistair, everybody's work speaks for themselfs.. Totally agree with you, there is not point wasting more energy on an amateur wannabe like him!!

a k mac wrote:
Well, Javi, you gave it your best shot - but he just won't listen. Hopefully the majority of those reading the comments can see through it!

It's a shame the rules of this forum seem to encourage people to pose as professional authorities when there is such glaring evidence in their portfolios that they are rank amateurs.

I would suggest to anyone who is genuinely interested in learning from this forum that they check out the work of the contributors rather than just blindly accepting what they say.

Alistair, everybody's work speaks for themselfs.. Totally agree with you, there is not point wasting more energy on an amateur wannabe like him!!

anchev wrote:
It seems to me you are the one misinterpreting. Of course you have put the question directly to me so I answered truthfully. Truth is not an argument.

"obtain and retain clients when it is possible to do so" - isn't that quite a pompous statement? Do you look at people like something to be obtained or retained for the purpose of "achieving success"? I don't. I just do some kind of work to make a living. Just like many other people.

You engage in very limited and limiting thinking.

Is it pompous of somebody to change careers, retire or pass on from this world? Is it pompous of somebody to learn to do a job themselves? Is it pompous of somebody to make a business decision to re-allocate the portion of their budget that was once your bread and butter? No, but it happens. At that point it is no longer possible to obtain or retain that customer. As you said, truth is not an argument.

"I just do some kind of work to make a living. Just like many other people."

This statement indicates a total lack of ambition or perhaps a completely different cultural viewpoint but I can assure you that people who embrace this sort of attitude in the United States quickly fall by the wayside. Long ago I worked for a great company - Kinko's Copies. They are gone now but started with ONE copier that they borrowed money to obtain. They had a solid business plan, implemented Kaizen on an hourly basis, provided profit sharing even with part time workers (also excellent benefits) and grew to 1,200 locations worldwide before the owners sold the company and retired. Their mission statement was: "Our Number One Priority is to Take Care of Our Customer."

Live that and you will do well. That has been my experience. I am going to paste some of your comments from earlier in the thread. They are very telling. I would never consider entering a business relationship of any kind with somebody who thinks this way.

"It's a gift to know from the very beginning that a client is not good communicator."
I find this statement to be wonderfully ironic considering the almost surreal twists and turns one must take in a failed attempt to communicate with you.

"So retouchers should be treated more respectfully as they are the people who take the time and eye strain to make the final product sell-able."
Without photographers creating images, retouchers have nothing to do. A perfectly retouched Nothing is still Nothing. You and your work is easily replaced if it is even needed. That said, I treat everyone with respect always unless they indicate through their behavior that they are not to be engaged.

"Wrong. If the client has no money - the client is gone. I stay."
This when the point being made is to find out what the client's budget IS, you immediately jump to the conclusion that they do not have one. That assumption is not based on any facts and will lead to lost business.

I would be gone if I start working cheaper just because the client "has no budget".
I have not mentioned working cheaper in this thread, not once. Same assumption, same failure on your part.

"I have said that a few times already: publish your prices, be fair and clear with people and you won't have to deal with negotiating and all the other time wasting "techniques."
Since you have no idea what sort of business you miss out on by engaging in a combative "me first" attitude like this there is zero substance of worth in your statement. Truth is not an argument, but you do not choose to use truth in your argument. Some of your formerly potential customers may be reading this thread right now and thinking they are dodging a bullet.

"It is not my business if the client has money or not. My business is if the client pays for the service and if he pays as much as I need to cover my expenses."
Another combative, "ME ME ME"  statement based on a total lack of facts and/or negotiating skills. It is ENTIRELY your business if the client has money and it is part of your job to find out what they can spend. You may be underselling yourself and you would have no idea at all that you left so much money on the table. If you are so buried by clients that have no money then that speaks for itself with regards to your offerings and how you go about making them.

"I get a lot of requests for "large number of images" and I reject them. Working according to client's budget is budget retouching, not high quality retouching."
Another non-factual, sweeping generalization that mis-interprets what I suggested. It truly appears that you have already made your mind up about your customers at first glance and do not care to learn anything about what they NEED. Good business is driven by customer NEED, they do NOT NEED YOU unless you can help them get things done. Closing that door early leads to lost business and indicates that you simply have no idea what you are talking about and do not care to learn.

"I am not in a competition with anyone."
Refusing to deal with reality does not make it go away. Without competition, we would all be living in caves and eating sticks and dirt.

"I would rather have a rest than work for nickels and dimes. There is so much work and retouching is not the only thing I can do."
I have never suggested working for nickels and dimes. You willfully misinterpret so you can attempt to make a point in your weak argument. Truth is not an argument. I am sure you will be getting your wish for a rest often enough since you refuse to compete.

I have nothing more to say to you, your chosen path is your own. It is so far removed from the cultural mainstream of the world the OP lives in as to be completely irrelevant unless they aspire to be homeless.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
...3rd world countries make the market very competitive and unfair. $20 is a month's wage in some countries.

No.

What country an artist live in is quite irrelevant for a remote job. Skill and personal feelings regarding art are most important when you choose an artist...

Do you think a person charging $20 per month would be useful as a remote retoucher for a photographer?

Do they use rocks to edit photos?

A tablet, a computer or whatever would have similar prices anywhere in the world. Do think apple says: oh, you're wage is $20 per month- ok take here a mac book for $10?

To be honest you can expect sometimes 20% - 50% lower price in a cheaper country... but not 100 times cheaper.

I've never seen a high quality retouch at $1 per day.

Alyssa June Retouch wrote:
This has happened to me more than once-

I'm emailing with a potential client, they send me examples of the work they need done. I respond with my base price and the emailing stops there.
Why??!??

It's obvious it's because they don't like the price. I take my time to communicate with them and look at their images.
If it's too high, why can't they just respond and tell me that. The feedback would be nice, it only takes a minute.

It just seems rude to me and I don't understand!

Because your using email instead of talking on the phone with them!
Never text or email, If your live on the phone with them you can hear there ton of voice.
If its the price then if you feel like it you can adjust it on the spot and not lose that client or sell your ass off and maybe even upsell your work for a better price!

Whitney Minthorn wrote:
Changes are they are searching for the right prices / value and going through emails with multiple retouchers. These inquiries are very common. I would recommend building networks and relationships with photographers or creatives first. They make great clients.

Well said.

Juicylicious wrote:
sad thing is...the magazine business is dying in general....even major magazines in NYC are slowly letting people go and letting unpaid interns doing the photo retouching work. Independent retouchers seem to be a dime a dozen (sorry no offense), the pie is getting smaller and everybody is fighting for the last few slices (business).

My parents's always right: "If you are in a dog eat dog highly competitive business, you gotta expect a lot of disappointments...."

Not for the high end market. Let's not mislead newbies with information like this? Haha. It's not really like that from what I'm seeing. Retouchers working in that part of the market aren't scrambling and fighting each other for work or losing out to unpaid interns, because that isn't how major magazines operate / how that market works.

It's competitive, sure, but not for the reasons you're specifying. There are also plenty of independent retouchers, and especially those making a solid living.

Juicylicious wrote:
Kami, have you pick up any recent copies of Maxim, Playboy or Penthouse (I would consider these the high end of Men's magazines)? Playboy has turn into a crappy, yes you buy it just to read the articles, no more sensual pics in there anymore. Maxim is even worse, I still have copies of Maxim from 10 years ago and those are thick, luscious filled with scantily clad women in there. But now? what a shame.

So because there's not enough ass for you, it means that that particular niche industry is suffering? Lmao what.

Also I'm not really familiar with the industry w/ men's magazines but I'm familiar with how it works for high fashion magazines and the beauty industry through people that have worked in it for a while that post here and in other places. From what I've seen/heard, nothing's wrong really.

Alyssa June Retouch wrote:
This has happened to me more than once-

I'm emailing with a potential client, they send me examples of the work they need done. I respond with my base price and the emailing stops there.
Why??!??

It's obvious it's because they don't like the price. I take my time to communicate with them and look at their images.
If it's too high, why can't they just respond and tell me that. The feedback would be nice, it only takes a minute.

It just seems rude to me and I don't understand!

Your posting reads like you need them more than they need you.

They've walked before you've done any of the retouching work. Just be thankful that you're finding this out now instead of after you've delivered product.

Juicylicious wrote:
sad thing is...the magazine business is dying in general....

Don't confuse low with high when it comes to magazines! Vogue/elle/marie claire sells millions around the world.. I would not consider them dead!

Juicylicious wrote:
Independent retouchers seem to be a dime a dozen (sorry no offense), the pie is getting smaller and everybody is fighting for the last few slices (business).

Again, I don't agree with that.. if you think £1000 for an editorial is not well paid.. (8 images) you are too demanding..

Juicylicious wrote:
My parents's always right: "If you are in a dog eat dog highly competitive business, you gotta expect a lot of disappointments...."

If that's your view.. you should re-think what you are doing.. maybe you are doing it wrong!

Kami Fore  wrote:
So because there's not enough ass for you, it means that that particular niche industry is suffering? Lmao what.

LOL

Juicylicious wrote:
Kami, have you pick up any recent copies of Maxim, Playboy or Penthouse (I would consider these the high end of Men's magazines)? Playboy has turn into a crappy, yes you buy it just to read the articles, no more sensual pics in there anymore. Maxim is even worse, I still have copies of Maxim from 10 years ago and those are thick, luscious filled with scantily clad women in there. But now? what a shame.

Who do you think sells more magazines.. men's mags or girls mags?? Think about it and you will see that what you are saying doesn't make sense

The Invisible Touch wrote:
99% of the retouching comunication is done by email. Not sure where are you getting your info

Very Impressive that you know 99% of the worlds retouchers. As a Photographer I know about 20 and out of those I only know how one of them do their business. I am very impressed how you know how everyone works. But maybe like me you ask. Ive asked some of my very well off friends how to do business. They make way over 6 figures. They have emails but as soon as they get an email they prefer to go right to a voice phone call. So they can do their sales pitch and get answers and answer the clients Qs at the moment. This keeps their sales hight. Which is why I suggested it to the OP. Because on the phone he could of found out his answer straight from the client. Saying something like When can we start. If client says no he could of found out the reason. Be it price or other and adjust for the client on the spot! Ive done this to save many a sales. I myself do well for myself. Using texts and emails as only a tool to get to talk to someone live! All I can say is do what works for you and what your comfort level is.

Yani S wrote:
Very Impressive that you know 99% of the worlds retouchers. As a Photographer I know about 20 and out of those I only know how one of them do their business. I am very impressed how you know how everyone works. But maybe like me you ask. Ive asked some of my very well off friends how to do business. They make way over 6 figures. They have emails but as soon as they get an email they prefer to go right to a voice phone call. So they can do their sales pitch and get answers and answer the clients Qs at the moment. This keeps their sales hight. Which is why I suggested it to the OP. Because on the phone he could of found out his answer straight from the client. Saying something like When can we start. If client says no he could of found out the reason. Be it price or other and adjust for the client on the spot! Ive done this to save many a sales. I myself do well for myself. Using texts and emails as only a tool to get to talk to someone live! All I can say is do what works for you and what your comfort level is.

You must be on that 1% then!

Professional photographers don't have the time to talk to you on the phone.. I understand that might work if you are working locally but if you have international clients.. trust me is not the case as time zones might be different, money cost of phone calls and clients busy shooting.

That's just what I know about my work and most of the retouchers I know who work for big brands.

anchev wrote:
It's a gift to know from the very beginning that a client is not good communicator.

George Anchev is correct.  That is a gift.  It is better to practice and do your own thing as opposed to dealing with someone that does not find value in the service you provide.  What I understand you to be saying is that they took a lot of your time to discuss various things, and then dropped you like a hot rock when you discussed price.  They took your time, ultimately without hiring you.  That, is just part of the business of doing business.  Perhaps you gave them specific advise on how to fix the images and when you started talking price, they decided to finish it out without you. 

Rarely, is there ever a photograph that can not be improved by some skillful retouching or post production/pre-publication processing.  What needs done may vary according to taste and ultimate purpose for the image, but usually an image will require some "retouching."

The Invisible Touch wrote:

Alistair, everybody's work speaks for themselfs.. Totally agree with you, there is not point wasting more energy on an amateur wannabe like him!!

I have a lot of respect for your professional achievements. It is remarkable what you have achieved. You're being very hard on George Anchev who has worked in photography and retouching for advertising--a number of businesses. Some of his statements may be over the top on his Linkedin but he looks very solid. He may not feel he needs a website and having had quite a few of them and also being a web developper, he has a website where he sells his 3-d model textures. A product photographer, of some note, who is on this site, bought some of them. I think he has come to the conclusion that it is best to hold firm on pricing, etc. He has had a huge amount of experience so although one may dislike his statements I think it is unfair to be so dismissive and brand him fake or amateur.