Dea and the Beast wrote:
Nah they just don't wanna talk to ya.

You know we can peek at your stuff and profiles without ever opening the message.
That way the models don't have to worry about being perceived as rude or unprofessional by not replying, since many photographers like to get unpleasant when turned down, no matter how politely it's done.

Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

Your MM mail can be set up so that an E-Mail is sent to your regular E-mail account that includes the full body of the MM message.  If a model is logged in to her regular E-Mail account she can read your message without going to MM so she may actually have seen your message without having "read" it on MM.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Nah they just don't wanna talk to ya.

You know we can peek at your stuff and profiles without ever opening the message.
That way the models don't have to worry about being perceived as rude or unprofessional by not replying, since many photographers like to get unpleasant when turned down, no matter how politely it's done.

This

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

What's your point? And maybe they are seeking better photo's then what you can provide.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I'm not going to argue. Points taken. This sounds like typical MM

No it sounds like another unhappy photographer.

I have no problems getting models from MM to shoot TF with

Images by MR wrote:
No it sounds like another unhappy photographer.

I have no problems getting models from MM to shoot TF with

I'm perfectly happy. Honestly, I live in a small town and the number of people willing to model at all is very small. The thing that pisses me off is every time I bring something up about models around here, everyone jumps in to make excuses for them and immediately starts badgering my work.

I asked a simple question to say do you think some people don't realize they have messages and that progressed into, you can't give them what they want. Without even considering the fact that there may be a problem, everyone jumped on me. Like I said, typical MM BS. It's been like that for years and it'll never change.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:

Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

-The guy who has to assert that he's a nice guy is usually not actually that nice. You saying you are or aren't something doesn't make it so.
-Your judgement of a models portfolio vs your own is moot. It's up to her to decide if your work is something she's interested in, her opinion of your work is what matters, not your own.
-They probably did read your message
-They just don't want to work with you
-No, I promise kids these days are not too stupid to figure out how to work an inbox.

Laura UnBound wrote:
-The guy who has to assert that he's a nice guy is usually not actually that nice. You saying you are or aren't something doesn't make it so.
-Your judgement of a models portfolio vs your own is moot. It's up to her to decide if your work is something she's interested in, her opinion of your work is what matters, not your own.
-They probably did read your message
-They just don't want to work with you
-No, I promise kids these days are not too stupid to figure out how to work an inbox.

Correct, I simply stated I'm a nice guy to make a point. I've owned multiple business for more than 12 years each, all based on reputation. You don't keep a business in small town NY USA for that long by being an asshole. Anyway, it doesn't matter ask anyone whose worked with me in any capacity but please don't judge my character when you don't know me. Is it a Canadian thing to beat me up tonight?

I wasn't judging my own work, all I'm saying is if you have nothing but vacation photos in your port, all taken with a cell phone and you're clearly stating you want to build your portfolio, I'm pretty sure I can help.

That's fine if they don't want to work with me, I'm not offended, you don't even need to explain yourself, I don't care BUT at least have the courtesy and respect to say no thank you.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Aaron, not having read the content of any offer you’ve made to models I certainly cannot comment on why you are not getting any nibbles from models who probably do need your services, but I can speak for myself as to why I don’t answer certain messages -

1. The photographer from New York City who offered to hire me for a relatively simple concept that I would be just perfect for. Really? Something this easy and simple and there are NO models in New York who would do the gig, so you need to bring me all the way from Texas? Paid travel and everything? This had scam written all over it.

2. Messages that start with “I know your profile says you don’t do nude, but . . . “ and then proceed to ask me to do the very type of work I have already stated I don’t do.

3. And the ones that don’t even acknowledge that they read the “I don’t do nude” part of my profile and just pitch the project, which is not just nude but bizarre and even somewhat kinky. And TF to boot.

4. Messages that say nothing except “Hey! We should collab, ya know?” and nothing more. As if this, combined with a lackluster portfolio, will make me beg them for details.

5. Offers from photographers (OK, really, most likely GWCs) who confess right from the get-go that they have no ideas, no place to shoot (not even a location out of the studio), not the slightest clue or any sort of plan whatsoever, and they ask me to tell them what I want, how I want it and what we should do together. OK, I am all for combining our creative forces, but if I’m doing all the leg work and the GWC is just showing up and clicking the shutter why do I need him? I’m better off paying money and hiring a real photographer and greatly improving my chances of getting quality work.

6. And, quite frankly, some messages just come off a bit creepy.

That said, I reply to all sincere messages written by someone who seems to have some sense of what he wants to accomplish and how he intends to get there. I have had some excellent images made for me by some really talented people, so I know it pays to respond.

Check your message content and make sure you’re not alienating models, and send the messages to models whose portfolios look like they mean business. I suspect your response rate will improve.

Well said and I respect your comments and I totally agree with everything you've said. It sounds like deal with a lot of scam or creep offers, as I'm sure a lot of models do. My content is usually something like this.

"Hello, (insert model name) my name is Aaron and I have a studio located in Catskill NY. I'm reaching out to a few local models to see if there's any interest in TF portfolio building. Please have a look at my MM portfolio and my website, If you think we can add something of value to your portfolio, I'd be happy to work with you.

All the best
ADL"

Some of that may get tweaked depending on the model, what genre she has listed, how far away she is, etc but always very straight forward, not scammy and not creepy, ever. Again, I've owned many business and have worked with the public all my life. Hell for that matter, read my testimonial page.

Now, sometimes I get replies, yes I'd love to work with you. Your work is very nice etc etc. We work out some details, in many cases even set dates but then it's either no show or the conversation just gets dropped for 2 months till the model resurface to say Oh sorry, I'm still interested in shoot I just had excuse 1,2,3 then the cycle begins again.

I really think it's simply a matter of everyone in my area is very unprofessional and doesn't take this seriously enough to follow through.

And I think we've strayed way off topic

Koryn wrote:
Here is the long, drawn out, answer to a similar question that I posted in another thread. It's relevant to your queries as well.

This is coming from someone who modeled for a decade, traveled with, shared lodging with and befriended (even dated) other freelance models over the years - so it's not like I don't know what makes models want to do trade with someone.

Mostly, when photographers ask these questions and I post these types of answers, they get ignored because no one actually wants to talk about the reality of day to day modeling/shooting life.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st19562683

Well said and I agree. I follow those guidelines almost to the letter. Example. I'd been communicating with a model for a while until we finally realized our schedules were not conducive to use working together.

A few weeks ago she contacted me and said she was now available within my schedule. We talked about theme a bit and because I realize my port has a lot of gaps, I'm open to any suggestion. She came to me and said, I want a rocker chick look. My initial response was frig, totally outside what I'm looking to do but hell, let's do it.

We put a date on the calendar, and in the weeks leading up to that date I had plenty of time to think about the look I was going for. This past Sunday we shot together for the first time. I've only been able to provide proofs of a small handful of the images at this point but the fact is, she texted me about an hour ago to tell me she loves everything about them and they;re the best photos shes ever had done. Now, you may think, I guess she hasn't done much but the fact is shes been modeling, professionally and not since she was 5.

Word of mouth and feedback is how I've built many successful business' and I intend to do the same with this, although I have a full time job and photography is a side gig for me.

So back to the point, the bottom line is, I've always very conscious of everything you stated in your post. If you say no nudes, I don't ask, if you want rocker chick, I give you rocker chick. My searches are limited to 50 miles and I usually try for within 25 out of respect.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Correct, I simply stated I'm a nice guy to make a point. I've owned multiple business for more than 12 years each, all based on reputation. You don't keep a business in small town NY USA for that long by being an asshole. Anyway, it doesn't matter ask anyone whose worked with me in any capacity but please don't judge my character when you don't know me. Is it a Canadian thing to beat me up tonight?

well I'm an American so I wouldn't know.

I wasn't judging my own work, all I'm saying is if you have nothing but vacation photos in your port, all taken with a cell phone and you're clearly stating you want to build your portfolio, I'm pretty sure I can help.

apparently not, if you're not getting answered. They've decided for whatever reason that you can't.

That's fine if they don't want to work with me, I'm not offended, you don't even need to explain yourself, I don't care BUT at least have the courtesy and respect to say no thank you.

no response is a response, many people view it as a waste of time, and as earlier pointed out, an annoyance when the other party goes on a rant, to reply just to tell a person "no" when they can just move on instead. Send lots of messages, work with the ones who respond, forget about the ones who don't. Life is full of instances where you don't get a response if you don't get picked/they're not interested.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

This is just one of the hiccups that comes with dealing with models on model mayhem. Regardless of how good your work is, or how painfully clear it is that a model needs better images, there are plenty of models who either a) don't read images or b) respond back way too late (e.g. I once had a model wait over a year to send me her availability for a particular month). When this happens you can choose to rant about it or realize that it likely isn't anything personal and move on (personally, I like the latter option just because I have enough real world things to be concerned about, and that nothing is going to change when you complain about models to models).

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

Great, then you will have absolutely no problem posting your portfolio on the Critique section then so we can give you some honest feedback on your position here, right?

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

I check my messages when I am logged on and get an email notification of a message even if I am not able to log on right away.

If you are reaching out to models who have two vacation snapshots and they are new to this then, maybe they aren't answering because the reality of modeling is not the same as putting up a profile and claiming you are a model.

It doesn't always matter who the rejected party is, sometimes, someone will take it wrong.

I have one memorable situation where I took it wrong and then they took my reply back wrong and now that member and I have mutually blocked each other over something that never needed to escalate.

A non reply in MM could mean they aren't interested or it could mean they were too busy that day with non MM stuff t answer the email and then it was outdated when the read it.

Jen

Laura UnBound wrote:

no response is a response, many people view it as a waste of time, and as earlier pointed out, an annoyance when the other party goes on a rant, to reply just to tell a person "no" when they can just move on instead. Send lots of messages, work with the ones who respond, forget about the ones who don't. Life is full of instances where you don't get a response if you don't get picked/they're not interested.[/quote wrote:

Hi Laura,

I must respectfully disagree with this logic.  When someone writes with a valid offer, even if you're not interested, the courteous and professional thing to do is reply.  Not replying is just rude and immature and neither of them are professional traits.  How does anyone know if the offer was even received if there's no reply?  If the person gets offended by a refusal, that's when the conversation gets cut off.  If the reply - either way - is abusive, contact a moderator and let the site handle it.  Its really that simple. 

Some will reply with, "But people on MM aren't professionals."  Then why advertise yourself on a site for the trade?  When you put up a profile and portfolio, regardless of how poorly its written of how bad the images are, you're advertising yourself as a working photographer/model/MUA/designer/whatever and part of professionalism is replying to an offer to work.  This conversation applies regardless of who contacts who and the key is to remain professional in what you say and how its said.  We all fall short at some point or another.  If someone believes you've offended them and says so, apologize and re-state your point(s).  Dialogue is as important as attitude, both playing an equal part in building and maintaining a positive reputation.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Why open a profile on MM as a model if the plan is to ignore offers?   A large part of any successful business venture is to respond to any and all serious offers.   I'm not talking about some goof who asks you to meet up at the old  factory at midnight nude.   If someone gets butt hurt over your saying no thanks thats on them and you can CAM them.   If the offer is TF and not a concept you like counteroffer for payment.   Several years ago I emailed a MM model in Texas for a art nude shoot.   Her rates were too high for me but she was so nice and gracious.   Later that year a photographer who knew of my work asked about nude models he could pay.   I suggested her.

The man invited me to shoot with them and bought us both dinner later.   None of this would have happened had she ignored me.   Models you lose NOTHING by replying to serious offers.   If someone is rude simply block them but respond.   I sometimes see members complain about a lack of paid work.   I recall one who did who I know for a fact was offered a paid group shoot.   Another tip.   If someone pays you what you ask and the session went well.   Say thank you.   One model I know  bakes cookies as a thank you.   Its surprising where good manners and being prompt professional and friendly can take you.   Its not always the 'best' looking models who are re-booked but those who are kind,  professional, reliable and personable.

The process starts with following up with ALL serious offers.

Well said, Tony.  Agree with everything you stated!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Why open a profile on MM as a model if the plan is to ignore offers?   A large part of any successful business venture is to respond to any and all serious offers.   I'm not talking about some goof who asks you to meet up at the old  factory at midnight nude.   If someone gets butt hurt over your saying no thanks thats on them and you can CAM them.   If the offer is TF and not a concept you like counteroffer for payment.   Several years ago I emailed a MM model in Texas for a art nude shoot.   Her rates were too high for me but she was so nice and gracious.   Later that year a photographer who knew of my work asked about nude models he could pay.   I suggested her.

The man invited me to shoot with them and bought us both dinner later.   None of this would have happened had she ignored me.   Models you lose NOTHING by replying to serious offers.   If someone is rude simply block them but respond.   I sometimes see members complain about a lack of paid work.   I recall one who did who I know for a fact was offered a paid group shoot.   Another tip.   If someone pays you what you ask and the session went well.   Say thank you.   One model I know  bakes cookies as a thank you.   Its surprising where good manners and being prompt professional and friendly can take you.   Its not always the 'best' looking models who are re-booked but those who are kind,  professional, reliable and personable.

The process starts with following up with ALL serious offers.

Tony, I hadn't see your response earlier. I have to say I totally agree with you as well, and I guess that was the point of this whole thread. Why have a profile if you're not going to respond.

Laura UnBound wrote:
no response is a response, many people view it as a waste of time, and as earlier pointed out, an annoyance when the other party goes on a rant, to reply just to tell a person "no" when they can just move on instead. Send lots of messages, work with the ones who respond, forget about the ones who don't. Life is full of instances where you don't get a response if you don't get picked/they're not interested.

No response is NOT a response. NOT is synoptic with the word NO. The key thing here was the fact that it appeared the messages were unread. If they're read with no reply, then I assume no interest and move on. If they're not read I assume they haven't been seen, and wondered why, but I hadn't considered the email part.

Victoria Elle wrote:
No one opens an account planning to ignore offers.  It's always the eventual result of previous messages the model has gotten.  Why can't models just ignore all of the disgusting, scammy, abusive, pompous, stalkery, insulting, pornographic messages just to get to your (the general your, not you personally OP) "reasonable" offer (because one person's reasonable offer is not another person's)?  Because there's only so much of that a person can take before it starts to effect you emotionally.  It is very easy for a man, who has never modeled, who will never experience the kind of messages a model will with the frequency a model will to say: just answer and cam the rude ones.  I'm not sure how describe to you an equivalent experience, because it will just never happen to a male photographer.  New models especially are deluged with absolute bullshit.  I have two beautiful friends who don't have 9-5 jobs but do have incredible clothing collections who joined the site last year on my recommendation.  They had both noped the hell away with a few months.  One of them did one shoot, and met with a member who is a forum regular.  He pressured her to do nudes.

I try to respond to everything, but even I sometimes take a week off from telling people "no thanks" when I feel like I've taken all the shit I can take and the thought of opening an email from this site (yes, I get messages email to me) starts to make me grind my teeth.

On the other hand: some people think they want to model, set up an account, and then for whatever reason realize they don't want to model.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Even agency girls get signed, dropped, and disappear never to model again every few months.  It's not just an Internet thing.

It's truly sad that people are that aggressive and unprofessional. I'm talking about the rude stalkerish kind of people, the GWC so to speak. You're always going to have that in the world but it seems very excessive here.

So maybe, MM and other websites alike should occasionally review they're user accounts. If an account hasn't been access in more than 12 months, delete it. Put it in the EULA that this is a policy and enforce it. It's really that simple to weed out those drive by sign ups.

Now, having said that, when I search, I usually do 25 - 50 miles who have logged in within the last 7 days. Sometimes I'l go 14 days depending on my mood. So anyone I'm contacting is at least somewhat active.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Look, I can only guess some of the nasty, sexist and provocative messages women get.   A MM model let me read some of her messages once and some were horrible.   So report those idiots.   Every day women go to clubs or bars and fools cat call.   Does that mean they should stop going outside or to the places they enjoy.   A message on a screen can easily be ignored and the person reported and blocked.   I also won't pretend to know what it does to a womans psyche but lets also NOT act like the average woman is some sort of porcelain doll.   


I run my yap on Youtube where I argue with racists and misogynists who call me all kinds of names.   Those who insult me get blocked.   There simply aren't many good reasons to ignore serious respectful emails.   When models first join they are often inundated with offers but this tapers off in a few weeks.   So again, models if the plan is to model and charge or build your book respond to serious offers.   Show up to shoot.   Don't want to provide your personal cell number?   Use Google voice or a number provided by an app like MagicJack.   There are few to no good reasons not to reply to serious offers even if to say a polite no thanks.   By the way its pretty funky to insult Aaron's work on the sly.

Thanks. Happens all the time here. I stopped participating in the forums for a long time because of it. Look how a simple genuine question turned into a bashing thread. I see nothing has changed in the last 5 years.

Top Gun Digital wrote:
Your MM mail can be set up so that an E-Mail is sent to your regular E-mail account that includes the full body of the MM message.  If a model is logged in to her regular E-Mail account she can read your message without going to MM so she may actually have seen your message without having "read" it on MM.

That's unfortunate IMHO as it dilutes the value of the read/unread status.

Rp-photo wrote:

That's unfortunate IMHO as it dilutes the value of the read/unread status.

Totally agree.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
So maybe, MM and other websites alike should occasionally review they're user accounts. If an account hasn't been access in more than 12 months, delete it. Put it in the EULA that this is a policy and enforce it. It's really that simple to weed out those drive by sign ups.

Almost everyone agrees this is a good idea, but inflated membership rolls bring higher ad rates, and it will never happen unless paid subscription revenue becomes a greater income source.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
No response is NOT a response. NOT is synoptic with the word NO. The key thing here was the fact that it appeared the messages were unread. If they're read with no reply, then I assume no interest and move on. If they're not read I assume they haven't been seen, and wondered why, but I hadn't considered the email part.

Sometimes if one is quite certain they don't want to communicate further with the message sender based on the subject or who they are, they may choose not read it, which is OK IMHO only if it's an initial contact.

In other words, it's OK to not read or read and not reply to an initial contact, but once a conversation starts it would be rude.

Victoria Elle wrote:
On the other hand: some people think they want to model, set up an account, and then for whatever reason realize they don't want to model.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Even agency girls get signed, dropped, and disappear never to model again every few months.  It's not just an Internet thing.

Very true. Younger people to get interested in things only to lose interest soon after, which includes modeling and to perhaps a lesser extent, photography. And for modeling in particular, many life events make it suddenly impractical or no longer appealing.

Older photographers such as myself also need to to take their slower life change over time into account. For example, they may look up a model last worked with 5 years ago and assume things are more or less the same, while to the model it was a different world.

Todd Meredith wrote:

Hi Laura,

I must respectfully disagree with this logic.  When someone writes with a valid offer, even if you're not interested, the courteous and professional thing to do is reply.  Not replying is just rude and immature and neither of them are professional traits.  How does anyone know if the offer was even received if there's no reply?  If the person gets offended by a refusal, that's when the conversation gets cut off.  If the reply - either way - is abusive, contact a moderator and let the site handle it.  Its really that simple. 

Some will reply with, "But people on MM aren't professionals."  Then why advertise yourself on a site for the trade?  When you put up a profile and portfolio, regardless of how poorly its written of how bad the images are, you're advertising yourself as a working photographer/model/MUA/designer/whatever and part of professionalism is replying to an offer to work.  This conversation applies regardless of who contacts who and the key is to remain professional in what you say and how its said.  We all fall short at some point or another.  If someone believes you've offended them and says so, apologize and re-state your point(s).  Dialogue is as important as attitude, both playing an equal part in building and maintaining a positive reputation.

How many job applications did you submit when you were younger that were never followed up with "sorry, you seem really great and all but we're not going to hire you"? I've put in hundreds in my teens and early 20s and not a single business ever sent me a sorry note. You wait a week and then assume you didn't get the job and go try to find another. Are they "unprofessional, immature, and rude"? No. That's real business. You get ignored.

This has been discussed in the forums for over a decade. Lots of people are fine with no response, lots of others think it's the worst thing in the world, you're free to think of it however you want but it won't make the ones who are perfectly okay with not giving unwanted offers a response change their ways and you're gonna wind up with a whole towering heap of people you've deemed "unprofessional" because they didn't feel like wasting more time and have chosen to conduct themselves like actual real world businesses.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:

Interesting, OK well, just for the record, I'm not unpleasant. All is well. If you don't like what I do then so be it. The bottom line is my clients are happy Not all styles mesh. Now, on the other hand, when I'm reaching out to a model whos portfolio is comprised of 2 vacation snapshots and her profile says I'm looking to shoot TF to build my portfolio. I have to guess that your reasoning is not the case.

Ah. Specifics.
First let me say that I was not projecting onto you but merely gave a true report of my experience In that department.
In the case of two cell selfie "model" I wonder why you bothered and then expected professionalism from someone who is obviously not....