thiswayup wrote:

The point, which I think was tolerably obvious both in my post and that I was seconding, was not that models stop replying to you after you rant at them, but after they have suffered the experience in general. The risk/reward ratio is just wrong for them.

Suffered what experience?  The OP simply asked if models read what was in their inbox.  How is that a terrible experience?

thiswayup wrote:

The point, which I think was tolerably obvious both in my post and that I was seconding, was not that models stop replying to you after you rant at them, but after they have suffered the experience in general. The risk/reward ratio is just wrong for them.

One of the reasons the fora are slowly dying.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

One of the reasons the fora are slowly dying.

The impression I get is that people are working more through social media instead. One problem I can see with this is that you lose any reputation system, but then how much was this ever really worth? If I was a model I'd be more concerned about having a completely traceable identities for the photographers I shot with. But I'm just kibitzing; obviously it's the opinions of models that count.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:

they're limited to STARTING 5 conversations a day. They can reply as as many as they like. I think we can usually tell the difference between SPAM and a genuine inquiry.
I'm not spewing out generic unrelated messages. Each one is personalized and references something in they're profile to indicate that I took the time to see what they were interested in working on. Additionally, I'm not 4000 miles away asking for money, I'm within 50 miles, I have a verified physical location and I'm offering to provide a specific services they state they need / want. I understand you're point to some degree but my messages are clearly not SPAM and I think you'r're exaggerating.

If you get 100 spam messages and one serious offer, how often do you read the serious offer?
If you get 90 spam messages, and ten serious offers, one being a TFP and the other 9 being paid offers, which messages are you more likely to respond to?
Once again, just because you send someone a message does not obligate them to respond. If you believe it does, take that as a good indication you do not want to work with those that don't.

Todd Meredith wrote:
Suffered what experience?  The OP simply asked if models read what was in their inbox.  How is that a terrible experience?

If you're too lazy to flip back a single page in a thread, I think it would be better not to comment on the basis of your guesses of what people meant - it's most likely to leave you flat on your face when they are wrong. The "experience" was the one models reported of getting abuse when they send a "No thanks" reply.

Also, is

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

.."simply asking" anything? It sounds more a resentful and sarcastic attack to me. Passive aggressive is another term that springs to mind. Misogynistic too, in that his response to women not wanting to communicate with him is to imply they are stupid.

"Simply asking" would have meant making a post like "Why don't I get more replies when I-"

..Perhaps I'm asking too much, but surely the difference is clear now it's been explained? Yes? No??

thiswayup wrote:
If you're too lazy to flip back a single page in a thread, I think it would be better not to comment on the basis of your guesses of what people meant - it's most likely to leave you flat on your face when they are wrong. The "experience" was the one models reported of getting abuse when they send a "No thanks" reply.

Also, is

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

.."simply asking" anything? It sounds more a resentful and sarcastic attack to me. Passive aggressive is another term that springs to mind. Misogynistic too, in that his response to women not wanting to communicate with him is to imply they are stupid.

"Simply asking" would have meant making a post like "Why don't I get more replies when I-"

..Perhaps I'm asking too much, but surely the difference is clear now it's been explained? Yes? No??

Misogynistic? Give me a break. It is rude not to answer genuine correspondence that you have read if you invite it by posting a profile here. Being rude is a choice everyone is free to make. Clearly his post indicated that he is not spamming or sending out dick pics. If he is aggressive to a negative reply to a model, then that is a different issue entirely.

To the real question of what can be done about it, the answer is nothing but block the person and move on.

Any reasonable person ^might feel a little resentful if their sincere messages are ignored, *myself included. However, I do agree that it pays to have a tough skin if you are going to put yourself out there and be able to forget the slight and keep going forward in a positive manner. *edited

Lisa Everhart wrote:

Misogynistic? Give me a break. It is rude not to answer genuine correspondence that you have read if you invite it by posting a profile here. Being rude is a choice everyone is free to make. Clearly his post indicated that he is not spamming or sending out dick pics. If he is aggressive to a negative reply to a model, then that is a different issue entirely.

To the real question of what can be done about it, the answer is nothing but block the person and move on.

Any reasonable person will feel a little resentful if their sincere messages are ignored, models included. However, I do agree that it pays to have a tough skin if you are going to put yourself out there and be able to forget the slight on keep going forward in a positive manner.

I suppose I'm unreasonable, I get ignored all the time and I don't pitch a fit and call out people for being "unprofessional" for not bothering with things that simply don't interest them and aren't going to benefit them. Weird

Laura UnBound wrote:
I suppose I'm unreasonable, I get ignored all the time and I don't pitch a fit and call out people for being "unprofessional" for not bothering with things that simply don't interest them and aren't going to benefit them. Weird

Good for you Laura. I should have said might feel and myself included instead of referring to people and models in general. My apologies. I have corrected my statement. I still believe it is rude, whether unprofessional or not, to not reply to sincere correspondence.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

I'd suggest getting a DVD of Frozen and learn the words to Let It Go, so you can sing it over, and over, and over again.

It is interesting, and perhaps a bit telling that your immediate assumption is that models are stupid.  Maybe that should tell you something right there, not that they are stupid, but that they can sense that you don't seem to have much respect for them, or their intelligence.

It probably never occurred to you that message notifications include a copy of the messages you send, so even though your messages say "unread", it is very likely that they have read them, and if they choose not to respond to your message, and to your follow up, maybe their lack of response should be sending a message about you.

Everyone has different approaches and different attitudes towards networking on here...  if you message novice/hobby models, don't be surprised not to get a response.  if you message experienced/professional models and are looking to trade, don't be surprised not to get a response.  If you are disrespectful, don't be surprised not to get a response.

I know some people think that you should not waste your time on models who don't keep their MM updated, but to be perfectly honest, for a lot of people, MM just isn't a priority anymore.  Certainly not like it was 5 years ago, so in trying to judge if someone is busy working, look at other social media, because many models just keep a presence here just to be found in searches, to be able to search, and to message photographers who may wish to hire them.  Adding photos to MM, is going to be a VERY low priority for many, so anyone assuming that is indicative of anything, is probably just as flawed of an assumption as yours that models are too stupid to know there is an inbox and how to understand an unread message indicator.

Bottom line, if you're not getting responses, it is probably about you.  Even if it is them, you're still making the selection to contact them, and that is on you, so maybe your picker is off, maybe you're picking the wrong kinds, maybe your messages are turning them off, or maybe something else is sending them the wrong message.

Either way, regardless of what is going on, there is a 99% chance that this is about you, and you are the only one who can do anything meaningful to try to make the site work better for you.

Good luck!!

thiswayup wrote:

If you're too lazy to flip back a single page in a thread, I think it would be better not to comment on the basis of your guesses of what people meant - it's most likely to leave you flat on your face when they are wrong. The "experience" was the one models reported of getting abuse when they send a "No thanks" reply.

Also, is

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

.."simply asking" anything? It sounds more a resentful and sarcastic attack to me. Passive aggressive is another term that springs to mind. Misogynistic too, in that his response to women not wanting to communicate with him is to imply they are stupid.

"Simply asking" would have meant making a post like "Why don't I get more replies when I-"

..Perhaps I'm asking too much, but surely the difference is clear now it's been explained? Yes? No??

Your arrogance is both amazing and appalling.  I read your posts and they made no sense, that's why I asked the question.  If being an asshole was an accomplishment, you'd be top in the class!

Todd Meredith wrote:
Your arrogance is both amazing and appalling.

Says someone who is so obtuse that he didn't recognize the sarcasm in a very nasty OP post. I have to point out that, as well as this parallel indication of your inability to read as well as one would hope, other people did understand. So the fault would seem to lie with you.

I read your posts and they made no sense,

They didn't make sense to you, a person so reading-impaired that he couldn't recognize extra-obnoxious, misogynistic, passive-aggressive flavoured sarcasm by the OP? Oh noes..! No, seriously, I can believe that.

that's why I asked the question.

Asking a question is fine; making up a version of what I said is not.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Did I miss where the OP was being misogynistic?   He said models.   Can't models be men?   Ahhhh.... but here come the White Knights to defend lady fair.   The MDL.   Model Defense League is on the case using buzz words like passive aggressive  Extra obnoxious and more.    These members should know that the models on MM can handle their own business quite well and don't need protection paternalistic or otherwise.

Hey Tony,

I think the POHM got one of those calendars with the big word of the day for his birthday and he's trying out last weeks new vocabulary.  He'll have skipped off to tea and may not be able to reply right now until mummy allows him to do so.

My sentiments from my last post still apply!

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Wow this whole thing to a turn for the worse. Well, all I can say is for those who understand what my questions was and share my opinion, thank you for trying to help.

There was nothing wrong with your question Aaron.

Todd Meredith wrote:
Evening Aaron,

You did nothing wrong.  You asked a reasonable question among peers.  Unfortunately, there's a difference in opinion about what is acceptable behavior in the professional and cultural world.  Not so many years ago, people valued other people broaching subjects as you did, as it made us look inside the trade and refine how it was seen by the public.  Those days are evidently long gone.  I'm not saying there were never disagreements, but the arrogant attitude presented by some members to a simple question being posed is amazingly disappointing.  Even worse, the attitude about what constitutes professional and mature interactions has, in my opinion, reached an all time low. 

<SNIPPED>

Sorry for the hijack, Aaron.

You dind't hijack at all. It's sad to say but I've always felt this site produced similar results to what we see here. I mentioned previously that I had stopped participating in the forms for that reason.

I decided to jump back in and contribute, show my face, join some conversations. Lesson learned.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

I guess
Keep trying

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Did I miss where the OP was being misogynistic?   He said models.   Can't models be men?

Oh dear - someone thinks he can be clever! Yes, models can be guys. But 95% of models on this site are women; the OP's port is dominated by women; the pronouns used by he and people agreeing with him in the thread are female. So, no, he was referring to women - and even you are smart enough to know that - while being silly enough to think that you can score points by being a hypocrite about it.

Ahhhh.... but here come the White Knights to defend lady fair.

The problem here is that you aren't smart enough to see that people can disagree with the OP because he might be wrong.  You weren't even smart enough to read the thread - if you were, then you'd know that eg his assumption that his mails weren't being opened is invalid.

It really is this simple -

- Model gets notification and scans it

- Model looks at port

- Model says "Hell no!"

- Model is under no moral obligation to respond - and the last time she sent a No message to someone got abuse for it

- Model gets on with life

..Photographer suffers ego-loss, isn't smart to understand notification system won't affect "read" status of message, throws tantrum.

I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

You could read the thread and discover that the messages probably were read and that between the message and your portfolio the model has decided she doesn't want to work with you...

What is it with you people? Is reading that hard?

(So, simple answer, get a better port and write better messages..)

thiswayup wrote:
You could read the thread and discover that the messages probably were read and that between the message and your portfolio the model has decided she doesn't want to work with you...

What is it with you people? Is reading that hard?

(So, simple answer, get a better port and write better messages..)

Ok so now we're back to blaming me, telling me I have an ego problem, passively critiquing my work and telling me I can't read?

Again, this wasn't about ego or hurt feeling it was simply that I was concerned some new models may not understand the messaging system. For what it's work the emails don't HAVE to contain the message body, that's a setting you can enable or disable. So before you go running off at the mouth, do your homework.

If you'd like to critique my work, feel free. I don't have confidence problems and I certainly don't need your approval for anything.

Photography is a serious hobby for me, it's not my job. I do it because I enjoy it. I learn as I go and I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. The fact is, I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about my work. The only people that really matter are my clients, and so far, they're all happy.

In an effort to learn I'm always open to feedback, positive or negative, that's how w learn. As I said before, I'll extract the value of your comments and ignore the things that really don't matter.

Just for the record, maybe you should critique your own work before you start bashing other people. How many times has your work been published?

marissa charles wrote:
Aaron Lewis, it is funny how the people who have no real advice to give will be the ones spouting such passive aggressive jibes and critiques about irrelevant things that do,not address the opening question.
I gave my side about why I sometimes don't reply to a message on the previous page, so I won't tell it again but there is no solution to it. I have been trying to join a new agency and have submitted to about 10; only one has replied, so it happens in all areas.

Noted, again, for the folks who can't seem to grasp this, it wasn't that I was complaining that I wasn't getting replies, I was simply concerned that there was a lack of knowledge.

For example, when you first signed up, did you know there was a messaging system? Did you know what the little envelope in the top tool bar was for? To some it's common practice but maybe not for all.

marissa charles wrote:
They do know it's there. Honestly there is nothing more to it other than they do not want to reply. Now I am not condoning this behaviour at all. I do it sometimes and it happens to me frequently. Nothing is up with the model not noticing the envelope ✉  etc.
Maybe some of the models just don't want your style of photography.
Btw my previous post was not having a go at you, I was defending what you said to the other photographer.😊

Understood, I dind't take it as that. I knew you were defending. I just wanted to clarify for the others. So if we all agree that's the case  then my question has been answered.

thiswayup wrote:

Oh dear - someone thinks he can be clever! Yes, models can be guys. But 95% of models on this site are women; the OP's port is dominated by women; the pronouns used by he and people agreeing with him in the thread are female. So, no, he was referring to women - and even you are smart enough to know that - while being silly enough to think that you can score points by being a hypocrite about it.


The problem here is that you aren't smart enough to see that people can disagree with the OP because he might be wrong.  You weren't even smart enough to read the thread - if you were, then you'd know that eg his assumption that his mails weren't being opened is invalid.

It really is this simple -

- Model gets notification and scans it

- Model looks at port

- Model says "Hell no!"

- Model is under no moral obligation to respond - and the last time she sent a No message to someone got abuse for it

- Model gets on with life

..Photographer suffers ego-loss, isn't smart to understand notification system won't affect "read" status of message, throws tantrum.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This is NOT a moral issue.   It is a conversation about smart business practices.   When I joined MM I noticed a great female shooter.   I wrote who I thought it was from her website.   She is a NY fashion photographer who has worked with many well known names.  She wanted to give back.   After a few flakes and no responses to free tests she removed her profile.   I've offered MM model tests.   No reply or worse flake.   Later when I've had paid work some of those models write me about shooting.   I give 'em back what they gave me.   Models lose NOTHING by responding.   So what if some fool gets butthurt.   Flag and block him.

I I forget models are delicate flowers.   No one owes me a reply.   No one owes any member a reply.   However by joining MM you are advertising yourself.   If you are only using your profile to host photos say so.   That TF offer might become a paid one.   Respond.   A low paid offer could be increased.   Respond.

It is not for you to decide that say me not responding is obviously my loss. So what? This website is a networking site and there are casual as well as serious people and honestly if one does not reply then there are literally 1000s of models here to go to.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I often find that leaving messages for models doesn't seem to yield any results. I follow up and although the model has logged in recently the messages say UNREAD.

My assumption is models don't know they have an inbox or they don't know what the little (1)envelope means

What do we do about this?

Setting aside some of the other issues that have been raised in reply to your original post, I'll address the direct question.  When my response rate is lower than desired, what I do about it is one or more of the following:
1. Review my criteria for selecting models to contact in order to better find models who are more inclined to agree to pose for me.
2. Review the way I word subject headings in messages to see if they might attract enough interest for a model to read the message and reply favorably or at least seek more information or open negotiations.
3. Review the way I have written my profile to see how it may influence a model's response.
4. Review the tags on my profile to see what influence they may have on a model's response.
5. Review the photos in my portfolio, how they are titled and credited, the comments beneath them, and how they are organized for the same purpose.
6. Review my posts in the forums for the same purpose.
7. Ask around with trusted models, photographers, and others to see how my reputation is both locally and among various networks and cliques of traveling models.

These aren't necessarily done in any particular order of priority.  I'm not suggesting that any of the above are a problem for you.  But for myself, I recognize that I have much more control over my own actions than over those of others so I look first at what I can do when it comes to managing problems and developing opportunities as a photographer.  I don't mean to imply anything negative about models with this analogy, but searching for models is a bit like fishing.  We can't always make the fish bite when we want, but we can control what we use for bait, where we cast, how we cast, and whether or not we're even fishing in the right lake or river for the sort of fish we're trying to find.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Again, this wasn't about ego or hurt feeling it was simply that I was concerned some new models may not understand the messaging system.

Then the reason people are trashing your mails is because you're incapable of communicating. Because what you wrote was sarcastic, passive aggressive and misogynistic.

Just for the record, maybe you should critique your own work before you start bashing other people. How many times has your work been published?

None. But I've only been shooting for about four months. I've done five shoots total and now I have two test shoots with agency represented models lined up. I'll probably be shooting test/trade with several more who are signable level. I'm happy with my rate of progress, as it often takes people a photography degree and years of assisting to get this far. I think expecting me to have had a Vogue cover quite yet is a little - well, very - silly.

People don't always answer my mails, but it seems like I have a much better rate of replies than you do, despite your having more years to build your credibility than I have had months.

(Are you sure that this was a smart question for you to ask?)

Springfield Fotografiya wrote:
Setting aside some of the other issues that have been raised in reply to your original post, I'll address the direct question.  When my response rate is lower than desired, what I do about it is one or more of the following:
1. Review my criteria for selecting models to contact in order to better find models who are more inclined to agree to pose for me.
2. Review the way I word subject headings in messages to see if they might attract enough interest for a model to read the message and reply favorably or at least seek more information or open negotiations.
3. Review the way I have written my profile to see how it may influence a model's response.
4. Review the tags on my profile to see what influence they may have on a model's response.
5. Review the photos in my portfolio, how they are titled and credited, the comments beneath them, and how they are organized for the same purpose.
6. Review my posts in the forums for the same purpose.
7. Ask around with trusted models, photographers, and others to see how my reputation is both locally and among various networks and cliques of traveling models.

These aren't necessarily done in any particular order of priority.  I'm not suggesting that any of the above are a problem for you.  But for myself, I recognize that I have much more control over my own actions than over those of others so I look first at what I can do when it comes to managing problems and developing opportunities as a photographer.  I don't mean to imply anything negative about models with this analogy, but searching for models is a bit like fishing.  We can't always make the fish bite when we want, but we can control what we use for bait, where we cast, how we cast, and whether or not we're even fishing in the right lake or river for the sort of fish we're trying to find.

Great analogy. I agree with you on all points. Maybe everything in my account is not refined quite as well as it should be but in most cases I've at least considered all you're bullets. If nothing else, my profile is honest and my messages are sincere..

It's all about selling yourself. What does the entire package look like to someone who doesn't know you. For that very reason I'm trying to build a list of verified credits. I've sen in other cases, and I'm sure this is true across the board, if you have no clients, you'll continue to have no clients. If you can show you have regular business, business will grow.

I guess the bottom line is I expect to much from people.but thanks for you're insight.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Great analogy. I agree with you on all points.

..All of which should have been obvious before posting. To make this even more brutally simple, send messages with a title like "Paid shoot; $25 an hour; state genre". Then increase the amount until you get a response rate and quality of model you are happy with.

Btw - DON'T literally write "state genre". Replace it with "swimsuit" or whatever it is you want to do.

Btw - I *like* your pregnancy and mother and baby shots. They're warm and more than technically adequate. I'm not saying that you are a bad photographer. But if you can't understand why the way you phrased your opening post made you look bad, then you have problems communicating.

thiswayup wrote:
..All of which should have been obvious before posting. To make this even more brutally simple, send messages with a title like "Paid shoot; $25 an hour; state genre". Then increase the amount until you get a response rate and quality of model you are happy with.

Btw - DON'T literally write "state genre". Replace it with "swimsuit" or whatever it is you want to do.

Btw - I *like* your pregnancy and mother and baby shots. They're warm and more than technically adequate. I'm not saying that you are a bad photographer. But if you can't understand why the way you phrased your opening post made you look bad, then you have problems communicating.

LOL Understood, thank you and I guess thank you? I'm not a literary genius and I usually don't take the time to make posts in a forum overly proper. Sometimes it's more of a brain dump because of a pain point that I want to share. I also realize I'm not a "great" photographer but I get the job done.

I think I've come a long way in the last couple years. I've only been shooting people for a few years and until recently, those shoots were occasional at best. I'm not making any excuses I'm simply stating the fact that I do realize where I stand.

This is a side business that I have fun with. If I make some money, great. If I don't well then I keep doing some TF.