Jules NYC wrote:
Today most big companies have a 'No Reference Policy' meaning no matter how hard you work, a future employer can only verify job title, salary and dates of employment.

There was a famous case with an Anesthesiologist was doing narcotics on the job, left said job then got a recommendation from the very place he was formally employed.  In his new job he almost killed someone, the patient sued the hospital, was awarded 8 mil, then the hospital sued the former employer that gave him the reference!

The only way to skirt around the policy is a personal reference, on a personal phone-line, not on company letterhead and having no corporate reflection upon the company.  How weird when you work for a place for a long time! 

Companies these days are afraid of getting sued (mostly large companies).
Sometimes I feel even if you do a bang-up job, if your boss has something against you, all your hard work won't make a difference in the world.

Here's a good link:

http://diversitymbamagazine.com/succeed … -your-boss

It's easier to get a reference from a photographer! lol
At the end of the day, a superior can give you a reference if they want to.

Would you give your boss a good reference?

There is a difference between a reference and a recommendation.  I have had good experiences with my boss and would be happy to tell anyone who asks that. I am often asked to write references.  What I make sure I do is keep it to what that person has done with me.  I never recommend them or say how I think they will work for someone else.    What I would not do is state how well I believe he would work for someone else or recommend him for anything.

It's the same when I am asked for advice on anything that has the potential to get people in trouble.  I share my experience.  I don't recommend what they should or should not do.  That's for them to figure out.

I try to speak for myself, and what I have experienced.  I try not to speak for others. 

While I will write references when asked, my personal feeling is that both references and recommendations have little value beyond verifying basic facts.  They are not random unbiased samples and therefore are not necessarily representative.  All a good reference proves is that someone is capable of getting someone to give them a good reference.  It's not proof that someone will do a good job for another employer.

It's the same with modeling and photography.  Just because a model showed up on time for a shoot with me, doesn't mean she'll do the same with someone else.   Just because I had a great shoot with a model, doesn't mean the next photographer will.

Abbitt Photography wrote:

There is a difference between a reference and a recommendation.  I have had good experiences with my boss and would be happy to tell anyone who asks that. I am often asked to write references.  What I make sure I do is keep it to what that person has done with me.  I never recommend them or say how I think they will work for someone else.    What I would not do is state how well I believe he would work for someone else or recommend him for anything.

It's the same when I am asked for advice on anything that has the potential to get people in trouble.  I share my experience.  I don't recommend what they should or should not do.  That's for them to figure out.

I try to speak for myself, and what I have experienced.  I try not to speak for others. 

While I will write references when asked, my personal feeling is that both references and recommendations have little value beyond verifying basic facts.  They are not random unbiased samples and therefore are not necessarily representative.  All a good reference proves is that someone is capable of getting someone to give them a good reference.  It's not proof that someone will do a good job for another employer.

It's the same with modeling and photography.  Just because a model showed up on time for a shoot with me, doesn't mean she'll do the same with someone else.   Just because I had a great shoot with a model, doesn't mean the next photographer will.

Completely understand.  Just showing up on time is not enough; it's being able to do the job and do it well.  There is a lot of frustration with leads and managers perhaps who have peaked at their personal glass ceiling.  I feel like 'helping' someone move forward, someone that they may be envious of it not in the cards if they don't want it to happen.  This happens more with women than men unfortunately as sexist as it is.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's the same with modeling and photography.  Just because a model showed up on time for a shoot with me, doesn't mean she'll do the same with someone else.   Just because I had a great shoot with a model, doesn't mean the next photographer will.

Totally I agree.  Most of photographer's praise, comment, and reference for the model is useless.  It is nothing more than a self-serving tool for the photographer for their own fruitless agenda.  I often get ghost bump after reading the tag left behind by the photographer. 

Back to the topic.  I often ask the previous employer when seeking reference:  Would you hire this employee again for any future role?  Although employers and supervisors are very tight mouth these days, you can still bang out some good info.  I have interviewed over a few hundred candidates, most of my hiring is heavily based on their CV, corresponding and interview.   I look for consistency or lack of consistency.  It is hard for the candidate for not being truthful.  Checking references are just for confirmation.

The truth is if you are a good worker, bad boss or selfish and incompetent supervisor is not able to keep you down for long.

Connor Photography wrote:

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's the same with modeling and photography.  Just because a model showed up on time for a

The truth is if you are a good worker, bad boss or selfish and incompetent supervisor is not able to keep you down for long.

Truth!

GRMACK wrote:
I got a laugh out of one reference check where the former employer said: "I can't say enough about that person."

And that was that for their response.

That seems like a can of worms;)

Connor Photography wrote:
In my early career in clinical research.  I worked for one of the big five pharmaceutical companies in the world.  I let and taught my subordinates to write the clinical study (clinical trial) report.  My older colleagues were having a field day and my action rocked the core of the Department.   You can't have a BS level scientist to write the medical report!!!  I said why not?  I showed them how and I would review and approve their report.  They told me that it was my job and some day my subordinates will take my job away. 

I said:  By the time they learn how to do my job, I have already learned something else.  It is unlikely they will catch up with me.  Besides, I have studied the results, understood the scientific findings and known what my next step was, writing report is boring, I would rather doing something else that they can't do for me.  Since then, every scientist in the Department wanted to report to me, because I spent time to develop their career.  It is a win-win-win situation for me, subordinate, and the Company. 

True enough, I have never lost my job to anyone. 

You empower your employees and that is a GREAT thing.

I used to write medical abstracts for a big pharmaceutical company AND do their web stuff.  If I knew as much as the people writing the full fledged report, I'd have more than my BA, that's for sure!

Nothing is better than a superior teaching you what they know.  Not only helps them to delegate, but it ultimately helps the  person learning a new skill.  No one taught me to write but I got a 100% training in Sharepoint, networking, and other more complicated IT skills.

Thank you former manager of the place that stumbled upon Viagra!

lol

GRMACK wrote:
I got a laugh out of one reference check where the former employer said: "I can't say enough about that person."

And that was that for their response.

"I cannot say too many good things about that person" is how I always heard it

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
NO!!! I retired because of my DICK BOSS!

Maybe that was a good thing.

You know, I can joke all day about this, because at the end of the day it's truly amusing but this is what is disappointing -
PLEASE don't try to be my friend if you are insincere about it.  My intuition is pretty good for detecting bullshit but I don't want to waste my energy on exactly that, bullshit.

The F-Stop wrote:
hahahaha if everyone hates the boss... he's doing a good job!

Worse if the boss is a 'she'.

Good thing I won't need that reference.


I've worked a few contracts where the agency concerned is more bothered about the quality of your references than the quality of your work. Frankly, if your boss is a complete dick, it doesn't matter how hard you work/smart you are/nice you are, you'll get a sh*tty reference.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic. … p;t=304287

Farenell Photography wrote:
I personally think Alan Alexrod's, "(General) Patton on Leadership" should be required reading for everyone in a work environment.

I've seen some fantastic leaders that I'd follow them to the gates of hell.

& some pretty poor leadership that makes you wonder what kind of blackmail material they have on the person in charge. It makes me seriously wonder if the organization is actually turning a profit or if somebody somewhere is shuffling the numbers so the losses are quite visible w/o a deeper examination.

Looks like an interesting read. 
Thing is, should work be a place of warfare?

I'm generally a peaceful person.
If I let my anger run away with me, I'd be the type to fight with my fists.
On that note, I never did that because I'd be afraid I wouldn't realize my own strength and kill someone.
I always felt like getting physical is a cheap way of dealing with anger.  With that said, I just don't go there.
Easier to do with a gun I guess (just speaking of war).

I don't like working in a warzone.
Those tactics may work brilliantly when life or death is on the line, but seriously?  At an office?
That has to suck big time to always be on the defense or offense considering what the environment is.

Jules NYC wrote:
I think managers should have performance reviews, seriously.

Typically they do, unless the manger also owns the company.


I can intellectually understand the mind-set of a crappy boss.  I'd figure most of their bad behavior is beset in fear & insecurity.

What kills me every time is the false friendships, the fake personas...
.

I feel I work at a great place, but I always keep in mind that I am simply a human resource.  I can be taken advantage of and I can be replaced.  I have seen many employees get in trouble by over estimating their value.  At the same time, I realize that as a resource, I don't owe my employer anything beyond what is agreed to.  I also see many employees killing themselves for no real return.

One thing I've learned at that what most employers/bosses really want is someone who gets the job reasonably done without causing them any effort or headaches.  Most bosses would much rather have someone who gets the job done basically, but consistently, but is never a problem to someone who is spectacular but also creates major blow ups from time to time.

Abbitt Photography wrote:

I feel I work at a great place, but I always keep in mind that I am simply a human resource.  I can be taken advantage of and I can be replaced.  I have seen many employees get in trouble by over estimating their value.  At the same time, I realize that as a resource, I don't owe my employer anything beyond what is agreed to.  I also see many employees killing themselves for no real return.

One thing I've learned at that what most employers/bosses really want is someone who gets the job reasonably done without causing them any effort or headaches.  Most bosses would much rather have someone who gets the job done basically, but consistently, but is never a problem to someone who is spectacular but also creates major blow ups from time to time.

I think management would rather have someone average that kisses ass than someone outstanding that is emotionally intelligent, direct and doesn't play games.  I sincerely believe that.

It takes a particular kind of person in a boss to empower their employees.  Most people by nature are driven by power and ego.  I am not.