Daniel-Smith wrote:
I want to ask for the viewpoint of the wider community on this: does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

I find this to be quite rude. A person wanting to work with the artist they have contacted (would they have contacted them if they did not?) and then they expect to be paid for it?!?

Is it just me or does the whole 'I'd love to work with you, here are my rates' thing annoy other creatives on the MM community too?

It's just you and you are not alone.  But for me, I have no problem with this:
...  It's exceedingly easy to say "No, thank you" politely.
...  And I am one who doesn't feel obligated to respond to every contact; no answer means no agreement.
...  Allowing yourself to get "annoyed" at semi-trivial matters drains your spirit.
...  There is nothing wrong with someone trying to find work proactively.  What are they supposed to do,
     wait for someone to find them?  It's a competitive world out there.
...  I like paying models:
     ---  My photography brings in revenue, so why not share?
     ---  I avoid the usage disputes.
     ---  I can work on my photos on my schedule.
     ---  It usually makes the models happy to get paid.

So, why is it rude to investigate whether you would be interested in hiring someone? 

Now -- people who don't credit people in their portfolios -- now, that's rude.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
People who don't credit people in their portfolios -- now, that's rude.

Sometimes people do NOT want to be credited.
I try to follow platinum rule rather than golden rule.
In other words--I try to do what THEY want done, not how *I* want to be done to me.
Because what I want, may not be what they want! 
Just because ones from Mars and the other is from Venus doesn't mean we can't be copacetic.
It just means that sometimes it's a matter of translation.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Is there another profession where one professional expects another professional to work for free?

While it may be inappropriate to suggest to a electrician that they wire your home for free, models and photographers frequently agree to enter into win/win collaborations.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

Oh God!  How dare they?  (First world problems.) 

Maybe you should consider expanding your vision of how to make money.  And if you want to do only the Professional/client gig, just offer them your rates.

I make plenty of money with my current thinking...but thanks for your concern .

As for first world problems...I'm certain that pretty much every thread on this site is just that!

Looknsee Photography wrote:

It's just you and you are not alone.  But for me, I have no problem with this:
...  It's exceedingly easy to say "No, thank you" politely.
...  And I am one who doesn't feel obligated to respond to every contact; no answer means no agreement.
...  Allowing yourself to get "annoyed" at semi-trivial matters drains your spirit.
...  There is nothing wrong with someone trying to find work proactively.  What are they supposed to do,
     wait for someone to find them?  It's a competitive world out there.
...  I like paying models:
     ---  My photography brings in revenue, so why not share?
     ---  I avoid the usage disputes.
     ---  I can work on my photos on my schedule.
     ---  It usually makes the models happy to get paid.

So, why is it rude to investigate whether you would be interested in hiring someone? 

Now -- people who don't credit people in their portfolios -- now, that's rude.

I completely understand that people need to make a living.

I guess the view that I have is that if someone approaches me for a shoot, the implies that they want to work with me; not me work for them, or them work for me. We're working together.
I am more than happy to pay models...I'm not one of the photographers who won't pay. However, for someone to approach me and give me their rates when I have no real use for their images seems a little steep. If I approached them, on the other hand, and wanted to work with them, then yes, by all means tell me your rates.

Hopefully that makes sense?

Daniel-Smith wrote:

As for first world problems...I'm certain that pretty much every thread on this site is just that!

Very true!

crx studios wrote:
While it may be inappropriate to suggest to a electrician that they wire your home for free, models and photographers frequently agree to enter into win/win collaborations.

My friends and I will exchange our time and expertise in our areas with each other.  I tend not to do it with customers because they do not have an adequate appreciation of the value of what I do.  What they will offer up in trade is insufficient. 

A win/win situation on MM is a TF shoot, many times.  It can also be a shoot where everybody gets paid.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

Not in the least.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
I completely understand that people need to make a living.

I guess the view that I have is that if someone approaches me for a shoot, the implies that they want to work with me; not me work for them, or them work for me. We're working together.
I am more than happy to pay models...I'm not one of the photographers who won't pay. However, for someone to approach me and give me their rates when I have no real use for their images seems a little steep. If I approached them, on the other hand, and wanted to work with them, then yes, by all means tell me your rates.

Hopefully that makes sense?

Well, it's the wild wild west out there -- there are no laws or rules, and everyone is free to handle their business any way they want.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I think you are playing by a set of rules that are not universal.  I believe that models who never ask for payment will likely never get paid, because we photographers tend to be cheep buzzards.  The issue isn't whether you want to pay models who solicit you for paid work -- the issue here is whether it is rude for a model to solicit a photographer for paid work.  You are free to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer, but it is unrealistic to expect that every model that contacts you will share your "working together" presumptions.

>>>>>  Tangent Alert  >>>>>
In my opinion, this "working together" or "collaboration" language tends to produce a lot more problems, because there isn't any kind of standard definition about what this means:
...  Can the model expect all the RAWs?
...  Can the model edit the pictures?
...  Can the model license the usage of the image without your permission?
...  etc.
You might have answers to these (and many other) questions in your mind, but look around these forums -- there are tons of threads that are variables of these misunderstandings.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

My friends and I will exchange our time and expertise in our areas with each other.  I tend not to do it with customers because they do not have an adequate appreciation of the value of what I do.  What they will offer up in trade is insufficient. 

A win/win situation on MM is a TF shoot, many times.  It can also be a shoot where everybody gets paid.

That was my point. The OP was talking about photographers and models, not architects and contractors.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
However, for someone to approach me and give me their rates when I have no real use for their images seems a little steep.

They are not going to know that unless they ask.

I think of door to door sales.  If I'm not interested I don't answer.  If I do end up opening the door and I see what they're sellin' and I'm not interested, before they can get 3 words out, I'd respectfully say, "Sorry, not interested.  Thanks."  Then move on with the rest of my day. 

And, besides, I'm just guesstimating, but I'm pretty sure you don't get dozens upon dozens a day of these offers.  It's manageable.  You are, after all, in a networking site.  Some are just a little more proactive.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
I want to ask for the viewpoint of the wider community on this: does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

This I think is where the issue is and I may find this rude. Prefacing the offer with "They love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you" and then give you their rates. If you do not have a casting call or if maybe the offer was  "in case you have a project that I could fit in" then that would be more of a professional approach. Obviously the intent of the model was to get as much business as she can, it is capitalism and there is no problem with that, but there is no need to hook you with some words they may not mean.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
I want to ask for the viewpoint of the wider community on this: does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

I find this to be quite rude. A person wanting to work with the artist they have contacted (would they have contacted them if they did not?) and then they expect to be paid for it?!?

Is it just me or does the whole 'I'd love to work with you, here are my rates' thing annoy other creatives on the MM community too?

Don't bother me none, bro'.

crx studios wrote:

That was my point. The OP was talking about photographers and models, not architects and contractors.

Your point, whatever it may be, is not clear.  It seems that you are inferring that either models or photographers are not professional and therefore should not be paid.   Perhaps you would explain how the analogy of architects, engineers, and contractors fails to relate to models and photographers.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
I want to ask for the viewpoint of the wider community on this: does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

I find this to be quite rude. A person wanting to work with the artist they have contacted (would they have contacted them if they did not?) and then they expect to be paid for it?!?

Is it just me or does the whole 'I'd love to work with you, here are my rates' thing annoy other creatives on the MM community too?

If the model is interested in posing for you, and you're interested in photographing him or her, but you don't want to pay the quoted rates, then the natural next step is to negotiate and present a counter-offer that you would find worthwhile.  Maybe that means paying the model less cash, but more of something else that the model values (wardrobe, accessories, makeup, props, transportation costs, housing costs, airline miles, food, beverages, prints, promotional items, etc.)?  Maybe it means less cash, but doing something to reduce the cost or inconvenience involved with them doing the shoot (e.g. you traveling to them instead of vice versa)?  Or maybe you keep it simple and either just offer less cash or else aim for a longer shoot for a lower hourly rate but a higher total payment than the model would get at the proposed rate?  Just because a model makes an initial offer for a deal, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only deal the model might possibly accept.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
...does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

No, it annoys me when a model/photographer posts my images and does not credit me.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Your point, whatever it may be, is not clear.  It seems that you are inferring that either models or photographers are not professional and therefore should not be paid.   Perhaps you would explain how the analogy of architects, engineers, and contractors fails to relate to models and photographers.

Your analogy about engineers and architects is a flawed analogy. As a rule, there is never a reason for people like that to perform a service for you aside from the fact that they are getting paid for it.

Obviously there can be a similar payer/payee arrangement with regard to photographers and models (in either direction), but there is also the possibility of a shared project that doesn’t involve any money changing hands.

When a collaboration like that occurs, it has nothing to do with either party not respecting the professionalism of the other party.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
I want to ask for the viewpoint of the wider community on this: does it annoy you when a model/photographer contacts you saying they love your portfolio etc etc etc and they would love to work with you. Then they say "here are my rates..."

I find this to be quite rude. A person wanting to work with the artist they have contacted (would they have contacted them if they did not?) and then they expect to be paid for it?!?

Is it just me or does the whole 'I'd love to work with you, here are my rates' thing annoy other creatives on the MM community too?

Par for the course.....just give them your rates.

WisconsinArt wrote:
What bothers me is the dishonesty. They're not interested in my portfolio, just my wallet.

That's not necessarily true.

Daniel-Smith wrote:
Is it just me or does the whole 'I'd love to work with you, here are my rates' thing annoy other creatives on the MM community too?

East West wrote:
Par for the course.....just give them your rates.

So, two "wrongs" make a "right"? 

In my opinion, much of the problem & annoyance stems from people providing rates were none were requested.  A "I'm interested in finding paid work; would you consider hiring me?" is better than "please pay me $100/hr".  I also don't think that giving someone a "dose of their own medicine" is a constructive way to respond, especially since the model is not doing anything wrong by looking for paid work.

WisconsinArt wrote:
What bothers me is the dishonesty. They're not interested in my portfolio, just my wallet.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
That's not necessarily true.

This will turn me off if I get this from a model full of selfies in her port:
"Hey Connor, I love your work and how you use your camera.  I want to shoot with you and update my port.  Here is my rate:
$$$$$$........ etc".

This one is perfectly fine with me:
"Hey Connor, I will be in your area soon.  If you have a project that I may be able to fill, please let me know.   My rates are very reasonable.......etc.
Thanks".

The objective is the same, but the wording is quite different.  One is coming out from an amateur dumb ass, and the other  one is coming out from a seasoned professional model. 

Some are destined to the top, some are always at the bottom and gone in a few weeks. 

Looknsee Photography wrote:
especially since the model is not doing anything wrong by looking for paid work.

There is nothing wrong to look for work, but there is an etiquette that comes within.

crx studios wrote:
Your analogy about engineers and architects is a flawed analogy. As a rule, there is never a reason for people like that to perform a service for you aside from the fact that they are getting paid for it.

Obviously there can be a similar payer/payee arrangement with regard to photographers and models (in either direction), but there is also the possibility of a shared project that doesn’t involve any money changing hands.

When a collaboration like that occurs, it has nothing to do with either party not respecting the professionalism of the other party.

-
Thank you for responding to me.  I see your point and respectfully disagree.  As I stated before, I exchange professional services with friends.  I will help on his project, and someday, he will help on mine.  I have in the past, exchanged services with clients that could not afford to pay me, but could supply a service to fulfill one of my needs.  I stopped doing that because I usually felt that I was on the short end of the stick.  And they probably did too.  Which is also how models and photographers often feel when they vent their frustrations on MM.  I am fortunate, that in my profession, I am not limited to a narrow professional group or commercial clientele to whom I sell my services and I can, and have refused to deal with various groups of businesses as our interactions are neither worthwhile or profitable.  If I were dependent on a specific relationship, I would expect that more trade arrangements would be required as long as such a relationship was outside of the public sphere.  I am not depended on models as photographers are, nor am I dependent on photographers as models are.  The close relationship between models and photographers does skew the balance within these professions.  The frequency of TF in other professions is undoubtably much more uncommon than it is on MM, but the use of it is a personal prerogative.  The reality is that when an engineer and an architect are working on the same project, and that project is not a project specifically for one of those two individuals or a joint endeavor or spec project, they are working for a common client who is paying the freight.

Consequently, a professional model and a professional photographer could simply exercise the prerogative to accept only paid work and then the professions are on equal footing with other professionals such as architects and engineers.  Unless they are portfolio building (or hobbyist) then they would also be working for a common client who pays the freight.

The biggest issue on MM is the hobby oriented individuals skew the "business model" to TF.  Others have adopted the TF arrangement to profit off of the other party, fairly or not.  The later being the biggest difference between the model/photographer relationship compared to the relationship of other professions that accent each other's services.

The question of respect, that you mention, seems to be key in this discussion.  Is it disrespectful to approach a person on the other side of the equation, complement their work, express a desire to work with that person, and then provide rates?  I do not think it is disrespectful.  Like me, a person may simply be fed up with the short end of the stick acquired in trade situations.  (Models get stiffed for photos, photographers get a half hearted effort, both sides get flakes.  A well known model on MM recently posted some eye opening comments about the uselessness of TF.)   The expressed compliment, the desire, the rates, are all steps of the negotiation.  The negotiation can continue or it can cease. 

The presumption that I have delved from these threads in the past is that one or the other side has presumed that a compliment and a desire to work together translates to a TF arrangement.  Sometimes it can be handled better.  In the times that TF or a codeveloped project is appropriate, then that should be what occurs.  I do not understand why it should be insulting, or annoying, that one professional (model or photographer) considers themselves worthy of being paid by the professional they are contacting anymore than the other should feel worthy of being paid.

Connor Photography wrote:
There is nothing wrong to look for work, but there is an etiquette that comes within.

Very true.  Your perspective in your previous post is also spot on.

Connor Photography wrote:

There is nothing wrong to look for work, but there is an etiquette that comes within.

I always enjoy your insight. Your post is spot-on. In forty years in the job market, no one ever paid me $100/hour for my effort. Not very often did I earn $100 for an entire day's work. That said, I understand that with time and experience and talent, someone's work in our field could be worth that much money. I just can't afford to pay that so I don't get to shoot very much. If I am solicited by a model for a shoot, I would hope that the model would negotiate a rate that works for both of us. A rate I can afford to pay and a rate that pays the model a respectable amount for his/her efforts. However, when I might have $100 to spend for an hour's activity, I would more than likely buy seat time in a Piper Cub to build time toward my tail wheel certification.