Forums > General Industry > Model Disappears, No Model Release

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'm confused.  I think he's received tons of guidance & constructive suggestions here.

I don't know why you're confused, but I'll see if I can help.

Yes, he's received some good suggestions, mostly from people that didn't bother stating the obvious, which he pointed out he already knew.

And my point was, is it really necessary to answer questions with "Here's what you should do now, and by the way, I'm smarter than you, you should never have done this, and it's your own fault"? No, it's not, and personally, I find it rude, and kind of ignorant generally, not mentioning anyone in particular, I think there's enough ignorance going around these days, we don't need to promote it here too.

Jan 23 17 08:07 pm Link

Photographer

East West

Posts: 847

Los Angeles, California, US

David I. Gross wrote:
So, what baffles me (I'm the photographer who started this) is that you folks are not annoyed that someone agreed to model, was well paid for it, treated kindly, and agreed to a model release...then decided to be dishonest and "disappear."

I'm amazed that so many of you expect — and accept — that a person you work would be dishonest. And, rather than blame the dishonest person, you fault the sucker. That's amazing. And sad. Just because people act this way (on occasion) doesn't mean I want to work with such people. "Fault" implies improper action, not a failure to be suspicious.

Final notes:
- The model agreed to sign and return the model release.
- All she has to do is digitally sign a PDF I have sent her. Not exactly an unreasonable request.
- If the model is on a trip, or something else is going on, she can easily respond and say so.
- She was well treated during the shoot. No one touched her, nor shouted at her, nor insulted her. Yummy food and and good coffee were provided. Uber fare was provided to the airport. A warm, clean robe was provided.
- She was paid $100/hr because she asked for it, and my friend (who has money — I don't) could easily afford it.
- My photos of her are not pornographic, nor even erotic, so it's not about paying some girl to show her privates to me.
- The model has signed into MM in the last two weeks and is not dead.
- The model has not replied in any way to my email and SMS requests — not even with a "no."
- Some models are very skilled (and talented). The first professional model I worked with ($125/hr) taught me a lot about posing and direction, and I watched her pose someone with an ease and speed I could not match. I'm not an amateur, either. These people can have skills, gained through effort and study, and a good model is a collaborator, not a subject. $100/hr is quite reasonable in the SF Bay area (the cost of living is stupid high).
- Oddly, many folks here cannot read: I did request, politely, that this not be filled with "You should have..." statements. Duh. I know I should have had a form ready, but circumstances intervened.

In summary, I thank those who offered advice and support. I am appalled by those who accept basic dishonesty and disrespect as an acceptable norm of business behavior.

David, you operate in good faith and hope others would do the same. Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work that way. It’s obvious to me, she’s avoiding you. I don’t see why it’s so difficult for her to sign, you made it very easy via PDF….no one is that busy. People are never too busy when it comes to getting paid but when you need something, they are.

Try contacting the mods to see if they can offer any suggestions since you’re both members.

Jan 23 17 09:22 pm Link

Photographer

C.C. Holdings

Posts: 914

Los Angeles, California, US

I've used digital contracts on my iphone or ipad for about 4 years, for the model to sign in person at the shoot. I also have print small portable releases.

I use PDForms, an app, and have a PDF release. Sign by hand. Has more proof and timestamps associated with the digital file than paper documents. Can immediately send a copy by email.

What's your excuse? Afraid of some antiquated carbon copy regulation? Courts just want proof.

Jan 23 17 09:46 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

DespayreFX wrote:
I don't know why you're confused, but I'll see if I can help.

Yes, he's received some good suggestions, mostly from people that didn't bother stating the obvious, which he pointed out he already knew.

And my point was, is it really necessary to answer questions with "Here's what you should do now, and by the way, I'm smarter than you, you should never have done this, and it's your own fault"? No, it's not, and personally, I find it rude, and kind of ignorant generally, not mentioning anyone in particular, I think there's enough ignorance going around these days, we don't need to promote it here too.

Well said.   People rarely listen when what's being said to them when it comes off as insensitive and rude.   How many of us have forgotten to have models sign a release.   Had the release ready but simply forgot.   I have.   My fault?   Sure but had I asked what I could do in a forum darn certain wouldn't want to hear how I was too blame.   Even if that was correct it solves nothing and comes off as discourteous.   We can all agree the OP should have had a working printer.   Could have had extra copies of a release.   Could have used an Android or IOS app but he didn't.   Perhaps at the time didn't think of those things.   

If we are to believe the OP he paid a model from MM $100.00 per hour.   I don't know about other people but that's a LOT of money to me.   Unless the session was unpleasant for the model she would be wise to sign the release.  Why?   Because someone willing to pay her $100.00 per hour might be wiling to do so again.   I sell laptops and Amazon Fire Sticks and other electronic items on Craigslist.   One of my customers has bought 15 sticks from me.   My prices aren't cheap but he knows I will help him with any issue after.   Maybe signing a release may be a bit of a hassle for the model but the smart move in my view is to do what you can to keep your customers happy.   Last, we as a community should in my opinion offer advice without putdown or judgement.

Jan 23 17 11:12 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Maybe signing a release may be a bit of a hassle for the model but the smart move in my view is to do what you can to keep your customers happy.   Last, we as a community should in my opinion offer advice without putdown or judgement.

Yup, yup.

Well, unless they say something reeeeaaaaallly dumb. smile

Jan 23 17 11:30 pm Link

Model

TEGAN

Posts: 81

Courtice, Ontario, Canada

I know this might sound a bit antiquated, but it could work for both parties here. Try emailing her explaining that you want to make this easy for both of you, and ask if she could provide her mailing address. You can snail mail her a copy with a return stamp, like a previous poster suggested. But I'd also mail it registered so that you have a record that it was signed for, and when. If you still don't hear back I don't think there's much else you can do aside from not working with the person again, because at that point I would definitely agree that she is avoiding this situation for whatever reason. However, I wouldn't "out" anyone over this. Just my 0.02, I hope you hear back.

Jan 24 17 04:35 am Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4581

Brooklyn, New York, US

Farenell Photography wrote:

There's nothing to out.

You should have had the model release ALREADY printed prior to the model even stepping inside the door. She modeled, you paid her, its not her fault YOUR printer malfunctioned. If she ends up signing well-after-the-fact, that's a courtesy on her part.

No, it's not a "courtesy on her part". It was the agreement she made with the photographer in exchange for the payment she received. She might not want or be able to get back to where he is to sign a release, but she should have the courtesy to answer her phone/emails. Sending her a release with a return envelope is a good idea.

Jan 24 17 06:22 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

DespayreFX wrote:
Sometimes reading all the way to the end is probably a  good idea before chiming in...

I thought it was pretty clear but I'll break it down Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplicity style.

Its the photographer's fault he wasn't prepared & will should simply live with the possibility of not having a release signed.

Jan 24 17 06:32 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

David I. Gross wrote:
So, what baffles me (I'm the photographer who started this) is that you folks are not annoyed that someone agreed to model, was well paid for it, treated kindly, and agreed to a model release...then decided to be dishonest and "disappear."

I'm amazed that so many of you expect — and accept — that a person you work would be dishonest. And, rather than blame the dishonest person, you fault the sucker. That's amazing. And sad. Just because people act this way (on occasion) doesn't mean I want to work with such people. "Fault" implies improper action, not a failure to be suspicious.

Wait! Hunh? Are you seriously putting this back on the model?

I'm confused how she was being "dishonest?"  She fulfilled her end of the bargain (modeled whatever content for X-amount of time, it was satisfactory enough that you paid her). How is it again her fault that you weren't prepared by already having the model release printed out? Everything after stems from that.

I could go on & point out at how ridiculous the rest of what you wrote is but I won't. I will leave you with a bit of advice I learned while under the employ of Uncle Sam. Its called the 7 P's.

Prior
Proper
Planning
Prevents
(a) Piss
Poor
Performance

Jan 24 17 06:43 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

Vito wrote:
No, it's not a "courtesy on her part". It was the agreement she made with the photographer in exchange for the payment she received.

Which arguably got waived by the release not being ready before the model even stepped in the door. & nullified by being paid AND allowed to leave before the problem was fixed. If not both.

Vito wrote:
She might not want or be able to get back to where he is to sign a release, but she should have the courtesy to answer her phone/emails.

Let's pretend MM's message system isn't aggravating to use even on the best of days. The fact of the matter is that we don't know WHY she isn't answering communique. For all we know the "ignored" email got buried in her inbox.

To illustrate how buried a traveling model's inbox frequently gets, here's a screencap of MM's former featured model Brennan about this very issue:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/semi234/brennantwitter_zps3087b1d1.jpg

Jan 24 17 06:59 am Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

DespayreFX wrote:
Sometimes reading all the way to the end is probably a  good idea before chiming in...

Farenell Photography wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear but I'll break it down Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplicity style.

Its the photographer's fault he wasn't prepared & will should simply live with the possibility of not having a release signed.

Well, I thought the OP was pretty Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplistic too, still didn't stop people from not understanding what he said either. No one is arguing about who's fault it is. He's asking for advice, not confirmation of blame. How does that help anyone, when he's already admitted he knows that part already? Future novice photographer/readers??!

Jan 24 17 09:05 am Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Farenell Photography wrote:
Which arguably got waived by the release not being ready before the model even stepped in the door. & nullified by being paid AND allowed to leave before the problem was fixed. If not both.

Sorry, but that's absolute BS.

I've driven away cars from dealerships, and had to come back and sign some forgotten paperwork. By your "logic", I should own that car for free, since they didn't get me to sign the paperwork I AGREED TO SIGN, and then left the building? Come on...

Again, neither the OP, nor I, are arguing who's fault this situation is, but your suggestion that not having the paperwork ready voids their oral contract is specious at best.

Also, picking out Brennan Hill is a little cherry-picking for sure, and yet, even so, I've never had to wait more than 24 hrs whenever I've talked to her for replies, and I don't believe the majority of models are anywhere near as busy as she is.

Jan 24 17 09:09 am Link

Photographer

East West

Posts: 847

Los Angeles, California, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Well said.   People rarely listen when what's being said to them when it comes off as insensitive and rude.   How many of us have forgotten to have models sign a release.   Had the release ready but simply forgot.   I have.   My fault?   Sure but had I asked what I could do in a forum darn certain wouldn't want to hear how I was too blame.   Even if that was correct it solves nothing and comes off as discourteous.   We can all agree the OP should have had a working printer.   Could have had extra copies of a release.   Could have used an Android or IOS app but he didn't.   Perhaps at the time didn't think of those things.   

If we are to believe the OP he paid a model from MM $100.00 per hour.   I don't know about other people but that's a LOT of money to me.   Unless the session was unpleasant for the model she would be wise to sign the release.  Why?   Because someone willing to pay her $100.00 per hour might be wiling to do so again.   I sell laptops and Amazon Fire Sticks and other electronic items on Craigslist.   One of my customers has bought 15 sticks from me.   My prices aren't cheap but he knows I will help him with any issue after.   Maybe signing a release may be a bit of a hassle for the model but the smart move in my view is to do what you can to keep your customers happy.   Last, we as a community should in my opinion offer advice without putdown or judgement.

Tony, you hit the nail on the head when you said "Last, we as a community should in my opinion offer advice without putdown or judgement."

If someone gets a flat tire, don't attack them because they don't have a spare, help them fix the flat tire!

Jan 24 17 09:53 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

East West, you said it well.   I can see it now.   Photographer gets flat on way to shoot and gets blamed when he can't make it because as at least one poster would say.   Its his fault for not having a spare.    In life things break.   Blaming others for things beyond their control is frankly mean and gets us nowhere.   Worse it causes those who might learn from anything you might say to not listen because they think you're as asshol#.

Jan 24 17 10:17 am Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 13564

Washington, Utah, US

DespayreFX wrote:
Sorry, but that's absolute BS.

I've driven away cars from dealerships, and had to come back and sign some forgotten paperwork. By your "logic", I should own that car for free, since they didn't get me to sign the paperwork I AGREED TO SIGN, and then left the building? Come on...

Good analogy.  One time when purchasing a car the dealership's title printer wasn't working.   It doesn't mean I got to drive the car untitled, unregistered and untaxed for the life of the car.     I was still obligated to get the car titled, registered and pay the appropriate tax in a timely manner.

If a model agrees to sign a release, as part of a shoot agreement, the release should be signed.  A malfunctioning printer doesn't magically release one party from the service they agreed to provide.  Whether or not it's worth the photographer's effort to get the model to do so is another issue.

Jan 24 17 10:43 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

DespayreFX wrote:
Sometimes reading all the way to the end is probably a  good idea before chiming in...

Farenell Photography wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear but I'll break it down Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplicity style.

Its the photographer's fault he wasn't prepared & will should simply live with the possibility of not having a release signed.

DespayreFX wrote:
Well, I thought the OP was pretty Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplistic too, still didn't stop people from not understanding what he said either. No one is arguing about who's fault it is. He's asking for advice, not confirmation of blame. How does that help anyone, when he's already admitted he knows that part already? Future novice photographer/readers??!

You do realize in the very post of mine you quoted is the answer to your own question? The one as to what advice to be given?

Jan 24 17 04:43 pm Link

Photographer

Vito

Posts: 4581

Brooklyn, New York, US

Vito wrote:
No, it's not a "courtesy on her part". It was the agreement she made with the photographer in exchange for the payment she received.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Which arguably got waived by the release not being ready before the model even stepped in the door. & nullified by being paid AND allowed to leave before the problem was fixed. If not both.

There is no waiver of not fulfilling the agreement because of a technical problem (that had nothing to do with the actual shooting). That's ridiculous and White Knightish.

Vito wrote:
She might not want or be able to get back to where he is to sign a release, but she should have the courtesy to answer her phone/emails.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Let's pretend MM's message system isn't aggravating to use even on the best of days. The fact of the matter is that we don't know WHY she isn't answering communique. For all we know the "ignored" email got buried in her inbox.

I have no problem with MM's email system and irregardless if there was any delay in the model receiving the message, she should be looking out for it, knowing the situation (of the broken printer). You're just making excuses for someone who got paid and doesn't want to complete her end of the agreement - and yes, a signed release was part of the agreement.

Jan 24 17 05:42 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Seems to me that you are mostly at fault.  You paid her before getting the release signed, and you had no contingency plan for your printer failure.  Seems to me that when you "out" someone (something not allowed here on MM), you are placing the blame on them.  Take some (most) of the responsibility for this snafu, and adjust your procedures so that similar situations don't reoccur.

Did you at least pay by check or get a receipt from her?  Is there an audit trail for your payment?

P.S.  Others might do this differently, but I (for one) get the release signed before the first exposure is made.

The OP did not out this model. If he would have he would have named her. She was paid and the least she could have done was sign the release. It would seem the equitable thing to do is have the model live up to her end of the bargain.

Jan 24 17 06:33 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Farenell Photography wrote:

I thought it was pretty clear but I'll break it down Barney-the-Purple-Dinosaur-Simplicity style.

Its the photographer's fault he wasn't prepared & will should simply live with the possibility of not having a release signed.

Well only if Barney was on mind altering drugs. The photographer is not at fault any more then the model would be if she did go through her 435 emails.  By the way those emails was that models job her only job at the time.   

The model is well aware she is not signing the release yet was all to happy to say she would just so she would get paid. She took the money and is not living up to her end of the bargain plain and simple.

Jan 24 17 06:43 pm Link

Model

Model MoRina

Posts: 6639

MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica

I've had a whole lot of shoots where the photographer forgot to bring a release or where I was asked months later to sign one. No big deal, but if I was away from home on a trip, I wouldn't make an effort to print, sign, scan and return it until I returned home. It is quite possible that the model in question is completely willing to sign a release but doesn't have the sense of urgency the photographer does.

Jan 24 17 06:49 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

MoRina wrote:
I've had a whole lot of shoots where the photographer forgot to bring a release or where I was asked months later to sign one. No big deal, but if I was away from home on a trip, I wouldn't make an effort to print, sign, scan and return it until I returned home. It is quite possible that the model in question is completely willing to sign a release but doesn't have the sense of urgency the photographer does.

Would it kill her to send a "Oh sorry, I'm away until X, will be in touch with you then and I will get that signed" msg? What if it's for publication, and there's a deadline? Your suggestion, while plausible, seems a little self-centered. Just because it's not convenient for *her* timeline, doesn't mean she can't at least get in touch and confirm she will get it signed at some point.

Jan 24 17 07:13 pm Link

Photographer

Mark Salo

Posts: 11727

Olney, Maryland, US

I will repeat the possibility that she might be injured and in the hospital.  This happened to a local photographer.  It was difficult to find him as he used a pseudonym and not many people knew his real name.

I recommended that the photographer try to track down her friend or family member.

Jan 24 17 07:17 pm Link

Model

Model MoRina

Posts: 6639

MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica

DespayreFX wrote:
Would it kill her to send a "Oh sorry, I'm away until X, will be in touch with you then and I will get that signed" msg? What if it's for publication, and there's a deadline? Your suggestion, while plausible, seems a little self-centered. Just because it's not convenient for *her* timeline, doesn't mean she can't at least get in touch and confirm she will get it signed at some point.

My reply to the OP was based on what he wrote, not based off of every possible scenario ever imaginable. No need to be insulting.

Jan 24 17 07:39 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Farenell Photography wrote:
You do realize in the very post of mine you quoted is the answer to your own question? The one as to what advice to be given?

If you mean this:

Farenell Photography wrote:
Its the photographer's fault he wasn't prepared & will should simply live with the possibility of not having a release signed.

If that's what you're referring to, that's so goofy, I simply dismissed it as possible advice. So I'm really hoping you were referring to something else, because I just can't believe your "advice" to someone who had an unforeseen, easily fixed, problem is, "Oh well, throw your time away, accept that you can never use that work product, and don't worry about it, next time be better prepared". Honestly? That's your best advice? Do you do this for a living??

Jan 24 17 07:56 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

MoRina wrote:
My reply to the OP was based on what he wrote, not based off of every possible scenario ever imaginable. No need to be insulting.

Wasn't my intention to be insulting, sorry if you took it that way, I was just pointing out that even if she was travelling, she could still be courteous enough to send a reply, and I was only going off the scenario you put forward.

(The hospital scenario suggested by someone else above, while unlikely, is at least a good reason for not returning calls/msgs)

Jan 24 17 07:57 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 8196

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

MoRina wrote:
I've had a whole lot of shoots where the photographer forgot to bring a release or where I was asked months later to sign one. No big deal, but if I was away from home on a trip, I wouldn't make an effort to print, sign, scan and return it until I returned home. It is quite possible that the model in question is completely willing to sign a release but doesn't have the sense of urgency the photographer does.

Morina:  I appreciate your willingness to work with those of us of that don't always get it right.  Below is a later post form the OP.  You will note that the model has been signing into her account.  Consequently, Mark, I am reasonably sure she is not laying in a hospital.

Mark Salo wrote:
I will repeat the possibility that she might be injured and in the hospital.  This happened to a local photographer.  It was difficult to find him as he used a pseudonym and not many people knew his real name.

I recommended that the photographer try to track down her friend or family member.

David I. Gross wrote:
So, what baffles me (I'm the photographer who started this) is that you folks are not annoyed that someone agreed to model, was well paid for it, treated kindly, and agreed to a model release...then decided to be dishonest and "disappear."


I'm amazed that so many of you expect — and accept — that a person you work would be dishonest. And, rather than blame the dishonest person, you fault the sucker. That's amazing. And sad. Just because people act this way (on occasion) doesn't mean I want to work with such people. "Fault" implies improper action, not a failure to be suspicious.

Final notes:
- The model agreed to sign and return the model release.
- All she has to do is digitally sign a PDF I have sent her. Not exactly an unreasonable request.
- If the model is on a trip, or something else is going on, she can easily respond and say so.
- She was well treated during the shoot. No one touched her, nor shouted at her, nor insulted her. Yummy food and and good coffee were provided. Uber fare was provided to the airport. A warm, clean robe was provided.
- She was paid $100/hr because she asked for it, and my friend (who has money — I don't) could easily afford it.
- My photos of her are not pornographic, nor even erotic, so it's not about paying some girl to show her privates to me.
- The model has signed into MM in the last two weeks and is not dead.
- The model has not replied in any way to my email and SMS requests — not even with a "no."
- Some models are very skilled (and talented). The first professional model I worked with ($125/hr) taught me a lot about posing and direction, and I watched her pose someone with an ease and speed I could not match. I'm not an amateur, either. These people can have skills, gained through effort and study, and a good model is a collaborator, not a subject. $100/hr is quite reasonable in the SF Bay area (the cost of living is stupid high).
- Oddly, many folks here cannot read: I did request, politely, that this not be filled with "You should have..." statements. Duh. I know I should have had a form ready, but circumstances intervened.

In summary, I thank those who offered advice and support. I am appalled by those who accept basic dishonesty and disrespect as an acceptable norm of business behavior.

Jan 24 17 08:03 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 8196

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

The most amazing thing about this thread and so many others, is the virility in which we approach each other.  Are we at war?  Is it too much to ask for models and photographers who depend on each other, to reach out, to make some extra effort, so that we can all thrive and enjoy our professions or hobbies?

I can not believe that there is a single person in this thread who has not screwed up something on a shoot.  People have forgotten their SD cards, batteries, even their damn camera.  Models and photographers have broken down on the way to a shoot.  The only thing this guy did was not have a piece a paper.  Something that could have easily been dealt with after the fact if there was just a small amount of mutual respect.  Shit happens.  Not every circumstance can have a redundancy in place to prevent a difficulty.  It is absurd!  Some of the posters act like this guy has single handedly lost the western front. 

Every model that screws over a photographer makes it harder for every other model in the future.  Every photographer that screws over a model makes it harder for every photographer in the future.  Isn't time to give this shit a rest and turn this around ... before it's gone?

Jan 24 17 08:23 pm Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
The most amazing thing about this thread and so many others, is the virility in which we approach either....  The only thing this guy did was not have a piece a paper. ...  Some of the posters act like this guy has single handedly lost the western front. 

Every model that screws over a photographer makes it harder for every other model in the future.  Every photographer that screws over a model makes it harder for every photographer in the future...

Hard to argue, lots of good points there... although, I don't make mistakes smile

(Well, unless you count the fact that I just put an SD card through the washer and dryer after returning from a shoot... in Fiji... yes, seriously... [I had already backed-up to my laptop thank god, but still...])

Jan 24 17 08:27 pm Link

Photographer

Jerry Nemeth

Posts: 33355

Dearborn, Michigan, US

MoRina wrote:
I've had a whole lot of shoots where the photographer forgot to bring a release or where I was asked months later to sign one. No big deal, but if I was away from home on a trip, I wouldn't make an effort to print, sign, scan and return it until I returned home. It is quite possible that the model in question is completely willing to sign a release but doesn't have the sense of urgency the photographer does.

I think that it happened with me.   smile

Jan 24 17 09:47 pm Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

Vito wrote:
There is no waiver of not fulfilling the agreement because of a technical problem (that had nothing to do with the actual shooting). That's ridiculous and White Knightish.

It has nothing to do about being "white knight'ish".

If I drop my car off at the mechanic, they do the repairs, I pay for said repairs, & they give me my car back. End of story. They (like the model) provided for said services. Not seeing why this is so radically different.

Vito wrote:
I have no problem with MM's email system and irregardless if there was any delay in the model receiving the message, she should be looking out for it, knowing the situation (of the broken printer). You're just making excuses for someone who got paid and doesn't want to complete her end of the agreement - and yes, a signed release was part of the agreement.

Consider yourself lucky then.

1. Can you say you've had "new" messages dated months ago suddenly appear in your inbox? I have.

2. Ever had said message be from a moderator utilizing their handy-dandy reverse "contact a mod" function? I have.

3. Ever write out a message click "send" thinking it was sent & find a few days later while doing a followup "whoops, sorry, the system ate that dissertation length shoot proposal reply"? I have.

4. Ever type something out, click "send" & then have it look all gobbly-gook? I have.

5. Ever get a reply sent to a folder (because you put that message string there) & not have there be any sort of notation with the folder icons indicating there be a "new" message? I have.

6. Ever type what you thought was a reply thinking the site is functioning this week, click send, only get to get that cat meme where one is hitting the other (with a notation that the user "did something wrong & should try again)? I have.

7. Ever got to your inbox to reference a message string you're having with a model because you need to verify important details that one or both of you gave the other for a shoot tomorrow only to find MM has put up "Curveball" I have & Lord only knows when you'll be able to access the site because their stated site maintenance times almost always went over by like 4 days.

8. Ever go to your inbox for something that's quick only to discover, golly gee whiz, the new & improved version is 10x more labor intensive than the old version? I have & so have a shit ton of other people. Try reading this thread.

9. The site functions reasonably well if you're on a laptop or desktop but Lord help you if you're on the road & trying to access it otherwise. Why this site doesn't have an mobile app when just about every other reputable website does for eve the minisculist of things, is beyond me. To say nothing about the "redirect" issue. Don't believe me? Try reading this thread.

So yes, please tell me & everyone else who routinely experience major inbox usability issues how we're making this up?

Jan 24 17 09:50 pm Link

Model

Model MoRina

Posts: 6639

MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I think that it happened with me.   smile

😉 Twice I think, but it was so long ago I could be wrong!

Jan 25 17 04:30 am Link

Photographer

L o n d o n F o g

Posts: 7497

London, England, United Kingdom

David I. Gross wrote:
So, what baffles me (I'm the photographer who started this) is that you folks are not annoyed that someone agreed to model, was well paid for it, treated kindly, and agreed to a model release...then decided to be dishonest and "disappear."


I'm amazed that so many of you expect — and accept — that a person you work would be dishonest. And, rather than blame the dishonest person, you fault the sucker. That's amazing. And sad. Just because people act this way (on occasion) doesn't mean I want to work with such people. "Fault" implies improper action, not a failure to be suspicious.

Final notes:
- The model agreed to sign and return the model release.
- All she has to do is digitally sign a PDF I have sent her. Not exactly an unreasonable request.
- If the model is on a trip, or something else is going on, she can easily respond and say so.
- She was well treated during the shoot. No one touched her, nor shouted at her, nor insulted her. Yummy food and and good coffee were provided. Uber fare was provided to the airport. A warm, clean robe was provided.
- She was paid $100/hr because she asked for it, and my friend (who has money — I don't) could easily afford it.
- My photos of her are not pornographic, nor even erotic, so it's not about paying some girl to show her privates to me.
- The model has signed into MM in the last two weeks and is not dead.
- The model has not replied in any way to my email and SMS requests — not even with a "no."
- Some models are very skilled (and talented). The first professional model I worked with ($125/hr) taught me a lot about posing and direction, and I watched her pose someone with an ease and speed I could not match. I'm not an amateur, either. These people can have skills, gained through effort and study, and a good model is a collaborator, not a subject. $100/hr is quite reasonable in the SF Bay area (the cost of living is stupid high).
- Oddly, many folks here cannot read: I did request, politely, that this not be filled with "You should have..." statements. Duh. I know I should have had a form ready, but circumstances intervened.

In summary, I thank those who offered advice and support. I am appalled by those who accept basic dishonesty and disrespect as an acceptable norm of business behavior.

So for non erotic, non porn, non nude etc, this model was paid a $100hr? I'm still shocked. Sure the cost of living is high in SF, it's one of the most expensive (maybe the most) cities in the USA to live in, but I doubt it comes close to the high cost of living in London?

And on that note I could never imagine a situation where a MM model here in London could command $100 (£75.00) an hour for any kind of work, let alone nudes and erotic!

There's obviously a major disparity between the US/UK Internet modelling rates!

Jan 25 17 05:28 am Link

Photographer

Naughty Ties

Posts: 3445

Riverview, Florida, US

At the end of each shoot I scan the model's ID into the computer and over the last decade there have been at least half a dozen times when the model has walked out the door and gone home without her license because we both forgot and it got left in the scanner. Was it my fault? Was it her fault? Does that really matter? Irrelevant. I just mailed it to her or if she was local brought it to her personally so blaming the OP is useless...shit happens.

Jan 25 17 06:18 am Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Farenell Photography wrote:
If I drop my car off at the mechanic, they do the repairs, I pay for said repairs, & they give me my car back. End of story. They (like the model) provided for said services. Not seeing why this is so radically different.

Because, according to you, if you could get your car off the lot first, you don't ever have to pay, it's their fault for letting you take a "test drive" I guess. Oh, you see a difference now? Me too.

Jan 25 17 08:20 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18832

Albany, New York, US

DespayreFX wrote:
Because, according to you, if you could get your car off the lot first, you don't ever have to pay, it's their fault for letting you take a "test drive" I guess. Oh, you see a difference now? Me too.

There's a pretty big difference between picking the car you dropped off at the mechanics & picking a car up from the dealer's lot. One was yours to begin with according to the state its registered in & one was not.

Oh, you see the difference now? Good for you.

*pats you on the head for approval*

Jan 25 17 08:23 am Link

Photographer

DespayreFX

Posts: 1481

Delta, British Columbia, Canada

Farenell Photography wrote:
There's a pretty big difference between picking the car you dropped off at the mechanics & picking a car up from the dealer's lot. One was yours to begin with according to the state its registered in & one was not.

Oh, you see the difference now? Good for you.

*pats you on the head for approval*

There's a pretty big difference between understanding a situation and shooting your mouth off too, try and be on the other side of that next time.

*pats you on the head in sympathy*

Jan 25 17 09:04 am Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 8196

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

Farenell Photography wrote:
If I drop my car off at the mechanic, they do the repairs, I pay for said repairs, & they give me my car back. End of story. They (like the model) provided for said services. Not seeing why this is so radically different.

Do you need to sign some legal document when you have your car repaired, and without said document, you cannot receive your car? Without said document, you will be legally limited in how you can use your car from that point forward?  If not, then it is "radically different."

Let's work with your example:
-You drop car off.  Car is repaired.
-Their credit machine is down (phone lines down- beyond their control); you don't have cash; they won't accept a check.
-They tell you to come back later or wait.  Might be a day or a week because a storm did the damage to the system area wide.
-They keep your car as collateral, because it says on the repair order that the vehicle will not be released until the invoice is settled in full by cash or credit card.  (Perfectly reasonable)  You, apparently, would accept their unwillingness to work with you, even though this isn't your fault.  But it is your fault because you should have brought cash and two days ago when you dropped the car off, you didn't allow for the impending storm to damage the phone lines.  Then we find out the the repair order also allows for a storage fee to be charged for each night the car remains on their lot.  Still your fault because you didn't bring cash.
-Then you finally get the car back and that noise is still there, and you just paid all this money.  So they look at it again and start charging you again.  Oh no.  Not the mechanic's fault.  He said he would fix A and now you want him to fix B, even if B was the problem all along, you agreed to fix A.

You may say that this would never happen to you because you know enough about cars.  Maybe.
Doesn't suck when people won't work with you?

How would the model have felt if the photographer refused to pay her after the shoot until she signed the release.  (You may also want to note in the OPs follow up: OP provided Uber fare to the AIRPORT, which now means that model must return the release and hope the photographer will send a check)
If the agreement between the photographer and model was, "We will do the shoot and I will pay you when you sign the release", then it would be within the language of the agreement to withhold payment until the model sent the release, regardless of who's fault it was that the release wasn't at the shoot, because the agreement didn't specify the release would be at the shoot, nor did the agreement specify that the release must be signed immediately after the end of the shoot.

The OP could have stuck it to the model, most likely, until he got the release.  Instead, she is sticking it to him.   Most importantly, no one had to have been stuck.  Mutual consideration and cooperation was all that was required.

Jan 25 17 09:07 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

I'm saddened by several posters here.   You can bet had the OP held the models money until she signed the release she'd respond to his emails and texts.   However once paid may feel NO obligation to sign anything and instead of saying she should some here point to the OP and say its your fault so suck it up.   What if a client who's paying you to shoot their designs forgets an outfit that you agreed to shoot and asks can they bring it another day.   Hey its your fault you forgot the dress so I'll ignore you.   We should encourage others to use and practice good business ethics.   These threads are read by new members who may not understand how things should be done.   The model was aware she didn't sign a release.   Odds are has seen the emails, texts and outside this website emails the OP has sent.   

I wonder if those who agree with this kind of garbage run any kind of business.  Signing the release is part of the job.

Jan 25 17 11:15 am Link

Model

Caitin Bre

Posts: 2687

Apache Junction, Arizona, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm saddened by several posters here.   You can bet had the OP held the models money until she signed the release she'd respond to his emails and texts.   However once paid may feel NO obligation to sign anything and instead of saying she should some here point to the OP and say its your fault so suck it up.   What if a client who's paying you to shoot their designs forgets an outfit that you agreed to shoot and asks can they bring it another day.   Hey its your fault you forgot the dress so I'll ignore you.   We should encourage others to use and practice good business ethics.   These threads are read by new members who may not understand how things should be done.   The model was aware she didn't sign a release.   Odds are has seen the emails, texts and outside this website emails the OP has sent.   

I wonder if those who agree with this kind of garbage run any kind of business.  Signing the release is part of the job.

The photographer could have made a hand written release very easily. Maybe its the Models fault because she forgot to bring a pen.?.

Jan 25 17 11:23 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

Caitin Bre  wrote:

The photographer could have made a hand written release very easily. Maybe its the Models fault because she forgot to bring a pen.?.

Hi, Caitlin   
That was something I said early on.   A lot of people think you can't write out things by hand.   I'm guessing the OP may be using a release he downloaded as a PDF.   Maybe he didn't think the model would pull a Houdini and vanish.    The model release apps on Android and IOS are also fine.   What if the model left an outfit.   Would we say, its her fault so the item belongs to the photographer.   On occasion models have forgotten to sign vouchers for paid commercial shoots I've assisted at.   The voucher includes a release and a copy is given to their agency, they have one and the photographer has one for the client but sometimes (not often) models were paid when they finished a shoot.   Refusing to sign a release even when it was the photographers fault could cost them future work and is a funky way to do things.

Jan 25 17 11:34 am Link