JohnSnape wrote:
Am I just a guy with a camera? If I'm paying $20 or $40 an hour for models to pose, does it matter? Are there models who just want to earn some money so I can post their pictures on my flickr page?

yes, john, there are people who will think so. but you can run into that in any profession. as you may read on many traveling model's and freelance model's profiles, they will work with photographers of all levels. money is a reasonable equalizer. and tfp models will appreciate the images. have fun.

the lonely photographer wrote:
From experience, answering a casting call yielded 0 responses, nada zip. Not sure the number is but Im sure for every post for a photographer there are dozens and dozens of responses.

Wow, that's terrible. It seems very rude to not respond to someone's direct message. But I guess nowadays it doesn't matter much anymore. I've sent out quite a few messages to models, and many times I'm not really sure if they receive it or not, because there isn't even a "No" sent back, even though it would just take a few seconds to do that.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
yes, john, there are people who will think so. but you can run into that in any profession. as you may read on many traveling model's and freelance model's profiles, they will work with photographers of all levels. money is a reasonable equalizer. and tfp models will appreciate the images. have fun.

I've sent messages to paid models, too, but I've only had two respond. I guess even $100/hour offers don't get responses!

JohnSnape wrote:
But the thing that I'm wondering about is: how do models usually see guys like me? Am I just a guy with a camera? If I'm paying $20 or $40 an hour for models to pose, does it matter? Are there models who just want to earn some money so I can post their pictures on my flickr page?

I've been at this a while, and have a few thoughts about it, but I'm looking for what the group here thinks.

If you're happy with what you have accomplished then keep doing it.

If your NOT happy with what you have accomplished then change up how you do your casting.

One common issue I run into with being hired by photographers/artists is they do not understand how much time they take up before the model steps onto the set.

If I am being paid $40/hr for a 3 hour shoot that = $120.
If it takes me 2 hours of back & forth emails, texts, phone calls, negotiation, planning..... BEFORE I arrive on set....
That effective rate drops to $24/hr & less when you factor in getting to & from location.

When a model's non billable hours goes longer then her billable hours, that is a main cause of models choosing to not work with peole.

The more organized you are the better you will do when casting models.


We don't care as much if it's your job, or a hobby, or for your fun time, or for social commentary.
We just want to know the parameters of the job & be able to make an informed & educated decision.

<----- Hired to give a 2 hour talk on this very subject next week...

JohnSnape wrote:
I've sent messages to paid models, too, but I've only had two respond. I guess even $100/hour offers don't get responses!

On average for every hour a model spends on set, they have 3 hours off set of non billable hours.
This take the average rate of $100/ hr down to an effective $25/hr.

Also many models have niche markets they choose to work with, just as photogrpahers do.
So if a job offer comes in that does not fall into that niche market, no need to take the job.

There have been many many modeling jobs at $100/hr I have declined, and will continue to do so.
They do not fit how I wish to market myself or they do not fit in the style of modeling I wish to do.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Tony: You are comparing apples and green beans .  You are comparing jobs that are of different values as if every job should make the same income.   I expect a plumber to cost more than a burger flipper.  I expect a photographer to cost more than an extra that stands around all day.  Why isn't the movie company paying an extra $7.50 an hour and only paying them for the hour that scene is being shot?  Because it is worth it to the movie company to pay more to have a reliable person who is there and available.

If I offer someone $100 a day and that offer is accepted, then those are the parameters.  If I offer someone $100 an hour, and that offer is accepted, then those are the perimeters.  However, when I set my price and tell my clients what I am going to charge, I have worked out what it cost me to provide an hour of service at the rate I charge, which we will say is $100 an hour.  Most of the time I have an hour or two a day of driving,  I am usually not being paid for that time.  But, I am paying a guy to sit in the passenger seat as we make that trip.  So, I have to cover the cost of his time, his taxes which are in addition to his rate, his benefits.  If it cost me $100 an hour everyday (for all my expenses, I would be loosing money just to go to work.  But it doesn't.  Because within my rate of $100 an hour, I have figured out how much time I spend a year to do all the things I do not get paid for and to cover the expenses: including driving time, and the time it takes to do weekly, quarterly, annual payroll, order supplies, fetch material, talk to customers on the phone, pay for internet and cell phones, printer ink and paper, computer stuff and electricity and all the crap that goes into getting the job in the first place.  I know how many hours I have to work in a year to cover my bills.   Generally, I need to have 4 billable hours per day to make a profit.  Hopefully, I have no more than 6 hours of employee expenses for that 4 hours.

I completely understand a model's rate.  If I have to her $75 or $100 an hour for one or two hours, I know she has spent hours talking to me because I can see the email trail.  I expect her to show up ready, with the clothing I requested.  I expect her to provide her transportation.  I know that by working for me for that two hours, she may not be able to work anywhere else that day.    An the model, like you may be competing against people who do not figure their overhead into their rate.  But those people will eventually do that, or go out of business.  If I am paying a model $40 for a two hour photoshoot, that I can paint 20 scenes from, she is making $2 a painting!  Before expenses!  With all the crap she has to do to get that job, I doubt it is worth it to her.  If I pay her $30 an hour to sit there every time I need to see the figure, it is going to coast me $200, or more for one painting.  And I have to arrange my schedule around hers.  If I pay her $200 for a photoshoot and I get 20 paintings from that photoshoot, I have only paid $10 a painting.  I get a bargain anyway!  And she gets to make a living wage.

I'm not responsible for models expenses, travel time or preparation or the idea that they spend hours networking.   All of that is part of a job the model has chosen.   She or he decided they wanted to be a free lance model not I.    Professional agency models spend more time auditioning and doing trades then paid shoots.   This is a fact and also understand that editorial pays very little and is often not published.    I have spent time talking to potential clients who later didn't hire me.   So should the next person who does be charged extra?   The average American worker makes around $18.00 per hour and they very often have to drive hours to a job and get up and prepare every morning.   This isn't to begrudge what models charge but is to say to use the notion that models have to spend time getting ready and emailing is simply wrong and paid extra for it is wrong in my view.

A plumber on average charges $60.00 per hour.   A electrician around the same.   The tech who looked into my Internet issues at my building charged $50.00 to do so.   (RCN)   I'll use myself as an example.   I sometimes go set up computers for people and do basic desktop builds.   This requires me to take Uber or public transportation.   Again, often many emails are exchanged and I can't work for others while I'm there.   I charge around $40.00 per hour.   Using your logic perhaps I should charge $200.00 per hour.   Somehow I think my clients won't want to pay.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm not responsible for models expenses, travel time or preparation or the idea that they spend hours networking.   All of that is part of a job the model has chosen.     This isn't to begrudge what models charge but is to say to use the notion that models have to spend time getting ready and emailing is simply wrong and paid extra for it is wrong in my view.

They aren't getting paid extra for getting ready, emailing/networking, setting up their  shoots. Those things are used to calculate what their rates are. The explanation was that for every hour of actual shooting, they spend at least as much time emailing, preparing and traveling.

If you don't factor those things into how much YOU need to charge your customers for their computer work, you are on the losing end.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I sometimes go set up computers for people and do basic desktop builds.   This requires me to take Uber or public transportation.   Again, often many emails are exchanged and I can't work for others while I'm there.   I charge around $40.00 per hour.   Using your logic perhaps I should charge $200.00 per hour.   Somehow I think my clients won't want to pay.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
If you don't factor those things into how much YOU need to charge your customers for their computer work, you are on the losing end.

If your not happy with the rate, find better clients Tony, my clients pay me on average of $210/hr for computer/web design work.

Ionalynn wrote:

If your not happy with the rate, find better clients Tony, my clients pay me on average of $210/hr for computer/web design work.

Eyesso wrote:
I'm in the same category, "just for fun".....because I love my day job and it pays more. 

As far as attracting models....you have to stand out, to be competitive.  Unfortunately "West Coast" is a competitive market, sort of a fashion hub with a lot of upcoming photographers hustling double time for free, so many models have options. 

Paying $20/hr will always attract models, you'll have options, BUT, that doesn't mean they will be quality models.  The only way to attract more outstanding models is to keep stepping up your game, set goals, reach them, set new goals, etc. 

Here's what I did....when I started I found out about this group shoot thing, and that helped a lot to build my portfolio. If you paid a little bit, like $40, you were able to shoot with 4 or 5 hand-selected "VIP" models for less than it would have cost to shoot with them individually, so I did that a few times.  Then I got to the point where I had concepts I wanted to shoot, specific stuff, and when it was a clear idea, I would look find a model with the specific look I wanted and ask her about her rates, if they were reasonable, I would pay.  I studied, STUDIED, my favorite photographs by my favorite photographers....I am an unapologetic copy cat, trying to reproduce a style of image I adore is how I learn the secrets of really good photographers, mostly I fall way short, but I learn a lot trying.  Anyway, eventually I had the sort of portfolio I wanted that showed my style and my capabilities.  So then I started writing to models that I felt had a look that would benefit my portfolio, and asked about TFP.  Some wrote back.  Eventually most of the models I was shooting were agency models, so, I decided to approach some agencies about shooting with their models.  They said ok.  So now my limit isn't models, it's time.....and I only have the time to shoot with a portion of the models I exchange messages with, which is a good problem to have.  The only models I pay now are art models if I intend to sell prints, or fashion models visiting from Europe/Russia who have a look that I can't find in the USA.  If I write to a model and I like their look, but they just want to get paid $20/hr I just politely decline and give them time to figure out how things work in this world. 

So anyway, my point is that it's a journey, like coming a mountain without a set path.  It requires some foresight and navigating, purposeful investments and perseverance.   In order to move forward, you have to keep it fun, but there also has to be some level of obsession with art/light/fashion/etc.  So keep challenging yourself, and keep up the good work!

+1 - it's a journey that takes time.
My journey has been quite similar to yours

JohnSnape wrote:
But the thing that I'm wondering about is: how do models usually see guys like me?

Most of the models I've shot have seen me as a source of income and also as a  possible contributor to their ports. It's probably the same for you.

JohnSnape wrote:
Am I just a guy with a camera?

Some will see you that way, some won't. What difference do you think it makes?

JohnSnape wrote:
If I'm paying $20 or $40 an hour for models to pose, does it matter?

You seem hung up on how you are perceived. To me, looking at your port, reading what you've written here, you just seem like a guy who enjoys photographing people/models.

JohnSnape wrote:
Are there models who just want to earn some money so I can post their pictures on my flickr page?

Yes. I've met and shot many models who wouldn't have any problem with that. Some will balk at certain content, but probably not at an online photo gallery.

You might get better answers posting in the Models Forum. I'd also recommend you browse through any responses by koyrn who has written about this subject on several occasions and often sums things up quite nicely.

JohnSnape wrote:
Wow, that's terrible. It seems very rude to not respond to someone's direct message. But I guess nowadays it doesn't matter much anymore. I've sent out quite a few messages to models, and many times I'm not really sure if they receive it or not, because there isn't even a "No" sent back, even though it would just take a few seconds to do that.


I've sent messages to paid models, too, but I've only had two respond. I guess even $100/hour offers don't get responses!

I'll tell you from *my* (I'm one of the $100/hr ones btw! ) perspective, why I wouldn't work with you after looking at your stuff:

Your crediting is off. You are mentioning some of the girls' real names instead of just crediting them with their chosen model names and the credits feature. Huge red flag, my friend. That's next to outing.

Others are not credited at all.

Either way, as a model you aren't making my life easier by having to go look very hard for some girl in your portfolio to contact and ask for references.

Your three newest tags are ..not models who worked with you.

Nothing wrong with a guy to "only wanting to take fun pictures", but your one line in your profile yells "desperate and dateless" (please forgive me, I'm sure nothing is further from the truth, but this is what girls will read from those lines..) and "negative attention when turned down", so many of us opt to ignore instead (like any psychology on ditching anyone unpleasantly persuasive ever will tell you to instead of engaging, even if it is to politely turn down any offers). Nothing personal. Not the decline of humanity either, but rather the awakening of it.

Without wishing to sound callous, perhaps try a little less Predator, and little more Live, Love, Laugh in your profile and for god's sake, please figure out how to credit your models appropriately.

Good luck!

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I'll tell you from *my* (I'm one of the $100/hr ones btw! ) perspective, why I wouldn't work with you after looking at your stuff:  Your crediting is off. You are mentioning some of the girls' real names instead of just crediting them with their chosen model names and the credits feature. Huge red flag, my friend. That's next to outing.

I'm not sure what you're saying. I never put their real name unless it is what they put on the model release as the stage name they want to use.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Others are not credited at all.

Some of the models I've taken pictures of are not on Model Mayhem, so I'm not sure how I need to credit them otherwise.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Either way, as a model you aren't making my life easier by having to go look very hard for some girl in your portfolio to contact and ask for references.

I currently have eight verified credits, so I'm not sure why you would find it hard to contact who I've worked with.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Your three newest tags are ..not models who worked with you.

I have a bunch of retouchers that "tagged" me recently.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Nothing wrong with a guy to "only wanting to take fun pictures", but your one line in your profile yells "desperate and dateless" (please forgive me, I'm sure nothing is further from the truth, but this is what girls will read from those lines..)

Are you talking about my TFP offer?

Dea and the Beast wrote:
and "negative attention when turned down", so many of us opt to ignore instead (like any psychology on ditching anyone unpleasantly persuasive ever will tell you to instead of engaging, even if it is to politely turn down any offers). Nothing personal. Not the decline of humanity either, but rather the awakening of it.
Without wishing to sound callous, perhaps try a little less Predator, and little more Live, Love, Laugh in your profile and for god's sake, please figure out how to credit your models appropriately.
Good luck!

I'd be interested in what it is about my profile on here that you think is "Predator." Is it that I only have one line offering TFP prints? Do you think I'm looking for dates from models? Please elaborate.

JohnSnape wrote:

the lonely photographer wrote:
From experience, answering a casting call yielded 0 responses, nada zip. Not sure the number is but Im sure for every post for a photographer there are dozens and dozens of responses.

Wow, that's terrible. It seems very rude to not respond to someone's direct message. But I guess nowadays it doesn't matter much anymore. I've sent out quite a few messages to models, and many times I'm not really sure if they receive it or not, because there isn't even a "No" sent back, even though it would just take a few seconds to do that.


I've sent messages to paid models, too, but I've only had two respond. I guess even $100/hour offers don't get responses!

You can see in the outbox or inbox if they're seen yr msgs. If they're not seen it, it will be marked in red as unread.

the lonely photographer wrote:
I answer a post for a photographer here and usually get no response. Its ok.  I only answer the posts that are interesting to me. I like newbies no experience. tall, really tall thin... with nice features..
I guess my name creeps them out lol....I enjoy messing with them

Well, if you're in the business of "messing with" people (as in, teasing and being evasive or difficult for the sake of your own self-entertainment), it should come as no surprise if your response rate is low. Most people prefer situations that are managed in a simple, concise, mature and upfront way.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
To answer a previous question: When the model is not an MM member, state in the caption that the "model is not on MM".

+1

or simply post a screen name (not a legal name)

Dea and the Beast wrote:
I'll tell you from *my* (I'm one of the $100/hr ones btw! ) perspective, why I wouldn't work with you after looking at your stuff:  Your crediting is off. You are mentioning some of the girls' real names instead of just crediting them with their chosen model names and the credits feature. Huge red flag, my friend. That's next to outing.

JohnSnape wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying. I never put their real name unless it is what they put on the model release as the stage name they want to use.

They are required to sign the release with their legal name.  That does not mean that they want their real name plastered on the internet.

ETA: the first image in your portfolio contains both the stage name and the legal name.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Your three newest tags are ..not models who worked with you.

JohnSnape wrote:
I have a bunch of retouchers that "tagged" me recently.

Delete them.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
OP, we can't critique your profile but I would consider using another of your models as an avatar.

+1