NeoQ wrote:
TP is not free for photographers.

TP* is not "free" for anyone.  There are expenses & time commitments for all participants.

NeoQ wrote:
So my question for you, models, do you take TP appointments seriously?

Some do.  Some don't.

NeoQ wrote:
My question for photographers, how is your experience with TP assignments, compared with paid assignments?

One quick observation:  I believe in the adage "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".  In this particular case, that means that I might give a flaking model a second chance, but I probably wouldn't give her a third chance.

The harsh reality is that a photographer's "flake ratio" varies greatly from photographer to photographer, even if they are swimming in the same pool of local talent.  There are lots of ways a photographer can improve his "flake ratio".  Some ideas are...
...  Be selective when choosing models -- choose models who have a good track record of showing up.
...  Understand the appeal of what you are offering from the model's point of view:
     ---  For example, the offer of a rooftop meal might be a turn-off for some models.  It makes it sound like a
           date, or it might extend the time commitment unnecessarily.
...  Offer a product that is superior to what the model has already ("superior" as defined by the model, not you).
...  Be clear in all communications, and by "clear", I also mean terse.

Good luck.

NeoQ wrote:
She agreed to collaborate with me. But since then she has flaked three times
.

The Model obviously does not take Her work seriously, has little to no respect for You as a Photographer nor Your project, or She is not who She claims to be.

Give a 2nd chance perhaps, but a 3rd?

No

NeoQ wrote:
Recently I posted a casting looking for models with TP.

TP???

Lieza Nova wrote:
TF can be really good or result in flakes. It depends on the individuals involved more than anything. Some people just suck at keeping their commitments. In the future, I would advise you not to give anyone that many opportunities to waste your time. Unless there's a damn good reason, move on to the next. Life happens, but it shouldn't happen so much that someone flakes three times on the same appointment.

The dinner thing... It seems harmless to me, but that's not to say that it wouldn't make another model uncomfortable, especially for a first shoot. It does give a date like vibe, which could range from being harmless to being seen as very creepy. You mentioned that the restaurant is a good location to shoot, so it may be better to just suggest shooting there and leave dinner as more of an afterthought.

NeoQ wrote:
Thank you guys!  I really appreciate you sharing experience with me. I have a better understanding now.

Several people asked why a third chance. I thought this is a professional community (not like a craigslist), which is supposed to hold higher standards.

I finally realized (after reading the responses and thinking about the three flakes) that this is just another craigslist, not a professional community. There are reliable people here; there are also people who don't give a weight to their credibility and reputation.

No, this is not a "professional community/"   I don't know of any online professional communities unless one is prepared to spend a lot of money on a membership and even then those are not foolproof either.   I learned how to do casting calls professionally in my own local community by doing so at the college facilities near me.  There are no legit modeling agencies near me, so I had to run my business by doing so.  I've been shooting since long before the digital age, when film, landline phones and meeting in person previous to a shoot were the rule.   For gosh  sake!   Don't offer dinner!  Meeting at a coffee place is good enough.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

NeoQ wrote:
TP is not free for photographers.

TP* is not "free" for anyone.  There are expenses & time commitments for all participants.

NeoQ wrote:
So my question for you, models, do you take TP appointments seriously?

Some do.  Some don't.


One quick observation:  I believe in the adage "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".  In this particular case, that means that I might give a flaking model a second chance, but I probably wouldn't give her a third chance.

The harsh reality is that a photographer's "flake ratio" varies greatly from photographer to photographer, even if they are swimming in the same pool of local talent.  There are lots of ways a photographer can improve his "flake ratio".  Some ideas are...
...  Be selective when choosing models -- choose models who have a good track record of showing up.
...  Understand the appeal of what you are offering from the model's point of view:
     ---  For example, the offer of a rooftop meal might be a turn-off for some models.  It makes it sound like a
           date, or it might extend the time commitment unnecessarily.
...  Offer a product that is superior to what the model has already ("superior" as defined by the model, not you).
...  Be clear in all communications, and by "clear", I also mean terse.

Good luck.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

No, this is not a "professional community/"   I don't know of any online professional communities unless one is prepared to spend a lot of money on a membership and even then those are not foolproof either.   I learned how to do casting calls professionally in my own local community by doing so at the college facilities near me.  There are no legit modeling agencies near me, so I had to run my business by doing so.  I've been shooting since long before the digital age, when film, landline phones and meeting in person previous to a shoot were the rule.   For gosh  sake!   Don't offer dinner!  Meeting at a coffee place is good enough.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:

TP???

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:

TP???

DespayreFX wrote:
99% Of my work here is TFP, so you can definitely get great work with TFP models. However, even more so than in real life, if you're getting a flaky vibe, you should bail. Once they start doing that, it never gets better, only worse.

Also, here's something that I've learned that helps minimize the feeling that you're missing out on something, there is *always* another new face for you around the corner, there is almost never a reason to believe that some model is sooo special that you have to work with *this one* (of course there are exceptions to that thought, but by and large, decent new faces come along every week).

One final thought that's a little off-topic, but since you mentioned it... Some models may be put off by your offer to take them to a nice dinner. I'm sure your intentions were purely to provide the model with a nice meal for her efforts, but it's not uncommon for some amateur photographers to confuse a shoot with a date. Just because a model likes your work, and wants to work with you, does not mean she enjoys you personally, and wants to spend time with you outside of a shoot. I'm not saying that in any kind of negative way, it's just an observation that in this industry, while there are many who are working on their craft, it is also commonly accepted that there are a few that use things like MM and shoots as dating options. I would suggest instead, if you'd like, to give her a gift card to a nice restaurant, if she chooses to take you, hey great, if not, I'm sure she appreciates the gift.

NeoQ wrote:
Thank you! Lesson learned. TFP is TFP, fair enough. No additional appreciation. By the way, it is not a dinner. It's a brunch in the place where we planned to shoot some pictures. And it's lunch time. I just feel uncomfortable not offering.

Understood.  If it is a place where you'll be shooting, it makes sense.  I get to know models by using various methods of communication.  I'll make contact by messaging, but jump over to other social networks that have a better messaging tool, like Facebook.  Then we'll also exchange emails and phone numbers.  We'' text, and at least speak once on the phone before I even consider a shoot to be booked.  Then I do compensate, meaning that if not pay, by feeding, providing for transportation, etc ....  so it's all good.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Everything in my portfolio was shot TFCD (Except the Golf Digest tearsheet for which I was paid as a model) So yes, trade is good but, equally, there will be flakes, cancellations, misunderstandings among the guys and girls involved, but there are ways to reduce the number and to reduce the negative impact of those that do occur.
1-Communicate--in person if practical but if not by phone or email--BEFORE firming up the shoot.  The first step is to negotiate all the terms and to determine the comfort levels of all participants with all aspects of the shoot.  When, Where, Why, How Many pics, How much time will the shoot take,  How long will it take to deliver the model and/or other members of the team the pictures,  the terms of the release, EVERYTHING! 
2-Verify (preferably in writing) everything you've discussed.  I prefer the MM private message system because it allows me to keep everything in one place where everyone can see it, but if not, at least by exchanging emails.  If there is any significant disagreement between you  fix it or just cancel the shoot.
3-Confirm the shoot a day or two before by phone and email.  If your call and/or email doesn't produce a confirmation within a reasonable time, send one last message stating that without confirmation you consider the shoot cancelled.
4-If the model hasn't arrived within 15 minutes of the scheduled time (how long depending on traffic patterns in your area) call and text to be sure the model is on his/her way.  If you can't reach her (I wouldn't want anyone to text or call me when in heavy traffic. give it another 15 minutes or so just in case.  If no model or call within that time, send her a text message informing her that you consider the shoot cancelled.  Same thing she answers or calls back to tell you that she overslept or that her grandmother died.
5-Put the time to good use--Dust your lenses, rearrange your prop closet, compose a new casting call, call two other models that you've been trying to book--Anything, just don't waste the time.

Will all this eliminate flakes?  Not completely, but taken as your method of booking shoots, it will reduce the number and the impact of the flakes that do occur.  It works for me.

All IMHO as always, of course.

You and I conduct our "business" in much the same way.  I think having been involved with casting theater actors, bands, and then models while I was in college helped me greatly to understand what it takes.  Although I've greatly reduced the number of flakes, it is impossible to eliminate it completely.  Things happen. I do remember those very few that have pulled a "no show/no call" on me ... and they don't get another chance.  It's just the way I have to be.

NeoQ wrote:
In this case, I even planned to treat her a nice meal in a rooftop restaurant (also a nice place for indoor shooting) to appreciate her time, which might cost more than payment if going paid.

Maybe just pay her and release yourself from the need to retouch a lot of images?

NeoQ wrote:
Not dinner, just brunch.

So it really wasn't all that big of a deal!

1) I've read of photographers who intended to give nice meals, nice tips, etc.  No mention if the model was aware of these intentions.  If not, they can't be considered as enticements.

2) Quite a few restaurants have signs prohibiting cameras.

NeoQ wrote:
Not dinner, just brunch. Since the appointment is 10 to 1:30PM, and the last photo location is in a rooftop restaurant, I would feel being very cheap if I don't offer a treat. I sincerely appreciate models' time when doing TFP since they could have used the time for making money. I don't think this would sound like a date. Does everyone else think so? 

Questions for all of you, when you do TFP, do you show your appreciation by means other than giving photos to models? 

Models, do you expect additional appreciation from photographers ?

Personally, I'd think that offering brunch is really nice but I can't speak for others and how other models would feel about it. It's an individual thing and the way it comes off depends on too many factors to really make a broad statement about. Saying something like "Since we'll be at the restaurant anyway, if you're hungry, I'll be happy to treat you to lunch" shouldn't be a problem for most models. At least I'd hope not.

I never expected anything other that what the photographer and I have agreed to. Anything beyond that is certainly appreciated, but I wouldn't think poorly of a photographer who didn't offer anything beyond a good shoot and the photos promised.

NeoQ wrote:
Thank you! Lesson learned. TFP is TFP, fair enough. No additional appreciation. By the way, it is not a dinner. It's a brunch in the place where we planned to shoot some pictures. And it's lunch time. I just feel uncomfortable not offering.

It is not a hard line.   If you look at other threads, you may see some replies where the photographer offers substantial extra compensation after the fact.  To some people it is team building.  To some it is an unnecessary expenditure of effort and funds.   You need to make a deal that both you and the other parties are happy with.  If they aren't happy with the deal, they will flake.  If you forget to mention something while doing the negotiations and then remember something like a model release, or a different article of clothing, they may flake.

Some people will be interested in doing TF, but they might ask you to cover gas and tolls, and maybe meals. 

As far as food goes or anything that might make it sound like a date: you can be less formal.  I have bought lunch and dinner for models but rather than making it part of the casting call, I approach it like if I don't eat I am going to pass out.  I usually make sure I have enough bottles of water and juice for everybody and offer to let them help themselves.  Throw some good snacks into a cooler just in case.  If you are shooting under the circumstances you describe, you could mention eating while you are there.  Just avoid the date vibe.  It isn't that you can't be a nice guy.

Early on in your thread, I also questioned why you gave a third chance.  Under those circumstances, I get it.  After a while though, you have to wonder if it isn't cheaper to hire someone who is professional and not burdened by other jobs or school.

Going through some other existing threads may help you with MM and expectations.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:

TP???

I was thinking the same thing. Great Fun

Rays Fine Art wrote:
Everything in my portfolio was shot TFCD (Except the Golf Digest tearsheet for which I was paid as a model) So yes, trade is good but, equally, there will be flakes, cancellations, misunderstandings among the guys and girls involved, but there are ways to reduce the number and to reduce the negative impact of those that do occur.
1-Communicate--in person if practical but if not by phone or email--BEFORE firming up the shoot.  The first step is to negotiate all the terms and to determine the comfort levels of all participants with all aspects of the shoot.  When, Where, Why, How Many pics, How much time will the shoot take,  How long will it take to deliver the model and/or other members of the team the pictures,  the terms of the release, EVERYTHING! 
2-Verify (preferably in writing) everything you've discussed.  I prefer the MM private message system because it allows me to keep everything in one place where everyone can see it, but if not, at least by exchanging emails.  If there is any significant disagreement between you  fix it or just cancel the shoot.
3-Confirm the shoot a day or two before by phone and email.  If your call and/or email doesn't produce a confirmation within a reasonable time, send one last message stating that without confirmation you consider the shoot cancelled.
4-If the model hasn't arrived within 15 minutes of the scheduled time (how long depending on traffic patterns in your area) call and text to be sure the model is on his/her way.  If you can't reach her (I wouldn't want anyone to text or call me when in heavy traffic. give it another 15 minutes or so just in case.  If no model or call within that time, send her a text message informing her that you consider the shoot cancelled.  Same thing she answers or calls back to tell you that she overslept or that her grandmother died.
5-Put the time to good use--Dust your lenses, rearrange your prop closet, compose a new casting call, call two other models that you've been trying to book--Anything, just don't waste the time.

Will all this eliminate flakes?  Not completely, but taken as your method of booking shoots, it will reduce the number and the impact of the flakes that do occur.  It works for me.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
In my experience, the more pay that is at stake, the less likely the model is to flake, but paying, even paying well is no guarantee a model won't flake or cancel.  Is it worthwhile to pay $100/hour (or what ever)  just to decrease the odds of cancellation?   That's something every photographer has to figure out for themselves.

Here's some non monetary ways I've saved time and effort on flaky models:

1. Don't invite models who cancel back, especially 3 times!

2. I don't chase models who drop communications. Odds are they won't follow through.  Better in my opinion to invest that time in a new model who is more serious.

3.  Confirmations:  1 by email about 3 days ahead, 1 by phone an hour ahead.  This has prevented no shows, but not cancelations.  Knowing a model won't show ahead of time, does however save me time and aggravation.

4.  Clear, concise communication - Be sure the model knows all the relevant details and knows you are serious. Again, a confirmation let's the model know you are really counting on her showing up.

5.  I never give up anything important or invest anything in a shoot with a model I've never worked with before.  If she cancels last minute, no big deal.   I'll do something else with my time.

6. Just accept models are flaky compared to other groups of people.  Complaining about it doesn't help.  It is what it is. (I think there are identifiable reasons why independent models are less reliable, but that's another topic.)

NeoQ wrote:
So my question for you, models, do you take TP appointments seriously? How differently you prioritize a paid assignment and a TP assignment? In what situation you would like to take a TP appointment from a photographer (the photographer's experience? )?

If I arrange a TF shoot, I do take that as seriously as a paying gig, and once it's on my calendar, except in a horrible circumstance, I show up.

But, I don't schedule TF at this point except with other models who also shoot photos who are willing to let me photograph them. Except for that, I just do not schedule TFP. When I was still working TF to build my portfolio, it got last priority and I only ever scheduled those assignments after booking paid work. If I ran out of time (usually did), there were no TF slots available even for myself to shoot other models.

At this point, I won't take TF from a photographer at all. But, I don't book it and not show up. I just don't book TF.

But, her behavior clearly shows she's not serious, and you should just find another model. Wasting that much time is ridiculous and there are other beginning models you can find in your area that will show up.

L o n d o n   F o g wrote:
I find it amusing how everyone interprets offers of food, snacks, refreshments etc during a shoot so differently.

Lunch seems to be ok (presumably because it's daylight), but the sticking point seems to be offers of dinner. Why is it that offers of an after-shoot dinner is a red flag, somehow translating in some models minds that the photographer wants to get their panties off and wear them as a hat?

So lunch is safe, dinner a no no, what about breakfast?

I offer them free sex, straight forward. Just no taker so far.

Chuckarelei wrote:
I offer them free sex, straight forward. Just no taker so far.

LOL!

That's a definition for TFP I hadn't considered!