Zack Zoll wrote:
I'm really disappointed. Not that he died - we're all going to. I'm disappointed that he took his own life.

I was always a grunge kid, and growing up Soundgarden was without a doubt my favorite band. The first album I ever picked out and bought with my own money was Superunknown. Which does mean that my parents willingly bought Badmotorfinger for a seven year old, but I guess it's tame when you grow up in a Zappa household.

Almost all the major front men from those bands are dead. Wood, Staley, Cobain, Weiland ... If I were Eddy Vedder or Mark Lanagan, I'd be at the doctor's every damn month. To do what he did, after watching so many close friends go, and seeing what it did to people ... I'm disappointed. I'm not even talking about the fans - fuck us. He didn't owe us any torch bearing. But his friends and family, he did.

I'll still listen to his stuff, and I'll always consider him the best hard rock singer of all time - and the second best regular rock singer, next to Mercury. But he let us down. He was too old and saw too much shit to be that selfish.

But in the end, I guess people are people. You can't go around holding them to a higher standard just because you bought their records. We're all flawed.

But still.

Well said.

Everyone has this impression that really great artists all struggle with mental illness and drugs.  Many do, but that's a choice, as with anything else.

Zack Zoll wrote:
I'm really disappointed. Not that he died - we're all going to. I'm disappointed that he took his own life.

I was always a grunge kid, and growing up Soundgarden was without a doubt my favorite band. The first album I ever picked out and bought with my own money was Superunknown. Which does mean that my parents willingly bought Badmotorfinger for a seven year old, but I guess it's tame when you grow up in a Zappa household.

Almost all the major front men from those bands are dead. Wood, Staley, Cobain, Weiland ... If I were Eddy Vedder or Mark Lanagan, I'd be at the doctor's every damn month. To do what he did, after watching so many close friends go, and seeing what it did to people ... I'm disappointed. I'm not even talking about the fans - fuck us. He didn't owe us any torch bearing. But his friends and family, he did.

I'll still listen to his stuff, and I'll always consider him the best hard rock singer of all time - and the second best regular rock singer, next to Mercury. But he let us down. He was too old and saw too much shit to be that selfish.

But in the end, I guess people are people. You can't go around holding them to a higher standard just because you bought their records. We're all flawed.

But still.

As much as I agree with the emotional part of this, the logical side says; "you have no idea what was going on in his head."

Seriously. His demons must have been pretty fucking brutal that only HE knew. Clearly no one else did which is why it is so shocking. But what he did is not selfish when you add empathy to the equation. I have studied psychology for more years than I can count and I still cannot wrap my mind around suicide. This is coming from someone who thinks about the Multiverse on a daily basis. Suicide is something SO personal that you cannot fathom another person's pain. I have never been that far gone to where I contemplated taking my own life and I would never be so egotistical to pass judgement onto another for being in that dark space. I'm an atheist so I don't believe in heaven or any other afterlife. He's dead now.

Whatever pain that man suffered, he's free of now. This is the only thing that made it stop. Let him have that.

Model Sarah wrote:
As much as I agree with the emotional part of this, the logical side says; "you have no idea what was going on in his head."

Seriously. His demons must have been pretty fucking brutal that only HE knew. Clearly no one else did which is why it is so shocking. But what he did is not selfish when you add empathy to the equation. I have studied psychology for more years than I can count and I still cannot wrap my mind around suicide. This is coming from someone who thinks about the Multiverse on a daily basis. Suicide is something SO personal that you cannot fathom another person's pain. I have never been that far gone to where I contemplated taking my own life and I would never be so egotistical to pass judgement onto another for being in that dark space. I'm an atheist so I don't believe in heaven or any other afterlife. He's dead now.

Whatever pain that man suffered, he's free of now. This is the only thing that made it stop. Let him have that.

I'm curious what you think -

Do you think it's fair for a person struggling with such demons should be in a serious relationship... have kids, etc.?
With empathy, everyone, I mean EVERYONE deserves love.

I wonder if another is willing to accept another's demons, they have to accept that maybe they will die, self-inflicted. Professions that involve risk, cop, a firefighter, etc. is up to chance, just like someone with demons.

Then again, you can always be hit by a bus as the common expression is, or pummeled by a run-away car in West Midtown.  This would be less likely, of course than a black cloud looming, sometimes, all the time or surprise thunderstorm.

Jules NYC wrote:

I'm curious what you think -

Do you think it's fair for a person struggling with such demons should be in a serious relationship... have kids, etc.?
With empathy, everyone, I mean EVERYONE deserves love.

I wonder if another is willing to accept another's demons, they have to accept that maybe they will die, self-inflicted. Professions that involve risk, cop, a firefighter, etc. is up to chance, just like someone with demons.

Then again, you can always be hit by a bus as the common expression is, or pummeled by a run-away car in West Midtown.  This would be less likely, of course than a black cloud looming, sometimes, all the time or surprise thunderstorm.

People who contemplate suicide typically do so in private. His wife clearly had no idea. People who suffer from depression have good days and bad days. He clearly had a really bad day. Depression is bigger than what you're alluding to here.

Model Sarah wrote:

People who contemplate suicide typically do so in private. His wife clearly had no idea. People who suffer from depression have good days and bad days. He clearly had a really bad day. Depression is bigger than what you're alluding to here.

I do understand.  I think about the universe as well and taken more psych classes than I'd figured for my degree.
'The Bridge' is a good documentary for this kind of thing.  It's sad.

You didn't answer my question though.  Do you think it's fair? I mean, you're taking the stance where it's not a selfish act.  CC was in the drinking/drug game since 12/13 as he stated in interviews.  Perhaps his wife knew of his demons and simply accepted them.  She chose to have kids so unfortunately and sadly, it is what it is.

I feel bad for anyone that wants to die.

Jules NYC wrote:
"Chris, a recovering addict, had a prescription for Ativan and may have taken more Ativan than recommended dosages," Pasich said. "The family believes that if Chris took his life, he did not know what he was doing, and that drugs or other substances may have affected his actions."

The Medical Examiner's Office in Wayne County, Michigan, announced Thursday that Cornell's cause of death was suicide by hanging.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/19/celebriti … index.html

"I know that he loved our children and he would not hurt them by intentionally taking his own life," Vicky Cornell said.

This is such bullshit. I feel like she is trying to comfort herself somehow and grasping at straws.

I know quite a lot about anxiety medication because of friends and family who take it. I have a REALLY hard time believing that he "didn't know what he was doing"... Hanging yourself requires more than just pulling a gun and shooting yourself. That's a lot of effort to go through to kill yourself. I just simply do not buy this.

HOWEVER, I'll await science in the toxicology report to confirm things. I'm always open to being wrong.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Not trying to bust chops but are we totally sure it's not one of those accidental auto erotic strangelings ala hutchingson from INXS?

At first when I heard "band on his neck" that's actually the first thing I thought of. But now knowing more information, I don't think that's the case.

Also they are usually found with their pants down.

Jules NYC wrote:

I do understand.  I think about the universe as well and taken more psych classes than I'd figured for my degree.
'The Bridge' is a good documentary for this kind of thing.  It's sad.

You didn't answer my question though.  Do you think it's fair? I mean, you're taking the stance where it's not a selfish act.  CC was in the drinking/drug game since 12/13 as he stated in interviews.  Perhaps his wife knew of his demons and simply accepted them.  She chose to have kids so unfortunately and sadly, it is what it is.

I feel bad for anyone that wants to die.

Your question is a non sequitur. Life isn't fair. I think if anyone is selfish wanting children, it would be the wife who knew of his issues. Chris Cornell had been technically clean for 15 years. I have seen the Bridge. It actually made me completely change my tone toward suicide. Not drastically but I'm MUCH more sympathetic toward how serious depression is. You are minimizing/trivializing depression here. A lot of the times, as I said before, these thoughts come and go. You start to go into a spiral when it gets control of you. The only way to escape them, in the depressed persons mind, is to end their life. I completely get that. They beat themselves up all the time for getting other people involved in their life... they are human we need other relationships in order to function. It's NORMAL to form relationships whether or not one is depressed. One of the MAIN reasons people close to them do not know how severe it is, has to do with how bad they feel about it having a negative effect on the other person.

As I said, it's a much bigger issue.

Model Sarah wrote:
I'm gutted over this. Absolutely gutted.

The greatest voice in rock history decided to end his life.

Not to take anything away from his achievements both as a music artist and family man, and with the greatest respect for someone who has just passed, but 'greatest voice in rock history' is pushing it just a little...

Ever hear of the following...

Robert Plant
Roger Daltrey
Steve Perry
John Fogerty
Paul Rodgers
...etc

Model Sarah wrote:

Your question is a non sequitur. Life isn't fair. I think if anyone is selfish wanting children, it would be the wife who knew of his issues. Chris Cornell had been technically clean for 15 years. I have seen the Bridge. It actually made me completely change my tone toward suicide. Not drastically but I'm MUCH more sympathetic toward how serious depression is. You are minimizing/trivializing depression here. A lot of the times, as I said before, these thoughts come and go. You start to go into a spiral when it gets control of you. The only way to escape them, in the depressed persons mind, is to end their life. I completely get that. They beat themselves up all the time for getting other people involved in their life... they are human we need other relationships in order to function. It's NORMAL to form relationships whether or not one is depressed. One of the MAIN reasons people close to them do not know how severe it is, has to do with how bad they feel about it having a negative effect on the other person.

As I said, it's a much bigger issue.

I am not minimizing depression.  I just asked you a question and thank you for answering.

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
did I read that right "Mental Illness is a choice" ?

If you were referring to something I wrote? no, taking drugs is a choice.
Mental illness is not in most cases.
Behavioral and genetic, there's both.

One can argue that if one is depressed, however you got there, then taking drugs isn't really your choice.
That's more of another topic altogether.

Choosing to have kids when you know your husband used to be an addict (could be again) is a choice.  Not everyone can completely get rid of that monkey on the back.

Model Sarah wrote:
This is such bullshit. I feel like she is trying to comfort herself somehow and grasping at straws.

I know quite a lot about anxiety medication because of friends and family who take it. I have a REALLY hard time believing that he "didn't know what he was doing"... Hanging yourself requires more than just pulling a gun and shooting yourself. That's a lot of effort to go through to kill yourself. I just simply do not buy this.

HOWEVER, I'll await science in the toxicology report to confirm things. I'm always open to being wrong.

Just read this.

Depends what the 'other substances' are.  I mean, PCP made a man drive onto a sidewalk in West Midtown to kill an 18 year old girl and injure 22 people yet I digress...

Model Sarah wrote:

This is such bullshit. I feel like she is trying to comfort herself somehow and grasping at straws.

I know quite a lot about anxiety medication because of friends and family who take it. I have a REALLY hard time believing that he "didn't know what he was doing"... Hanging yourself requires more than just pulling a gun and shooting yourself. That's a lot of effort to go through to kill yourself. I just simply do not buy this.

HOWEVER, I'll await science in the toxicology report to confirm things. I'm always open to being wrong.

While I agree with the logic of your assessment, I'd let her have it.  Just like he had to do whatever he had to do (in that moment) to deal with his demons, she now has to do whatever she has to do to deal with this.  We're all just fragile creatures trying to get through the day.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

While I agree with the logic of your assessment, I'd let her have it.  Just like he had to do whatever he had to do (in that moment) to deal with his demons, she now has to do whatever she has to do to deal with this.  We're all just fragile creatures trying to get through the day.

Oh yeah I don't disagree with that it's just as his fans, just let it be. She didn't have to come forward publicly with all this to get conspiracy theories started.

L o n d o n   F o g wrote:

Not to take anything away from his achievements both as a music artist and family man, and with the greatest respect for someone who has just passed, but 'greatest voice in rock history' is pushing it just a little...

Ever hear of the following...

Robert Plant
Roger Daltrey
Steve Perry
John Fogerty
Paul Rodgers
...etc

Nope. Not even close.

Model Sarah wrote:

Nope. Not even close.

Agreed. Plant and Daltrey were both better front men, especially because they were stupid good-looking. Plant actually got hired because Jones and Page wanted "a good-looking tenor like Daltrey."

But technical skill and range? Not even close. Mercury is the only person I can think of with a better range that didn't have gaps in it. Sure a hundred metal singers can hit higher notes, but it is ridiculously hard to go between falsetto and normal singing without having a gap of a few notes in between. Even Klaus Nomi had a gap, and his range was even wider than Mercury's. Nomi made Rob Halford look like Sylvester Stallone. In every way.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
While I agree with the logic of your assessment, I'd let her have it.  Just like he had to do whatever he had to do (in that moment) to deal with his demons, she now has to do whatever she has to do to deal with this.  We're all just fragile creatures trying to get through the day.

That's why I'm disappointed, and not angry. I've had times in my life where I genuinely felt like giving up - just keep driving, right off the cliff. I didn't, because I thought of all my parents and my friends invested in me over 20-someodd years or whatever I was at the time, and how shitty that would be for them. Even if Cornell had cancer or something ... At least OD. It sounds shitty, but even though your family will never forgive you for being an irresponsible jackass, at least they'll still get life insurance, and they won't think that you chose not to be with them anymore. Instead you've screwed them over, just so they think more highly of you when you're gone.

Life is a zero-sum game. If you win the lotto, that money isn't free - it comes from all the losers. If you take yourself out, you're taking all you are and have with you. Your way out becomes someone else's way in.

I understand why people would feel what they feel, which is why I'm not angry. But so much of his work has been about life, and dealing with death('Just' Like Suicide' is about a bird he had to put out of its misery after it crashed into his window), that I'm disappointed that he didn't practice what he preached.

Zack Zoll wrote:
Agreed. Plant and Daltrey were both better front men, especially because they were stupid good-looking. Plant actually got hired because Jones and Page wanted "a good-looking tenor like Daltrey."

But technical skill and range? Not even close. Mercury is the only person I can think of with a better range that didn't have gaps in it. Sure a hundred metal singers can hit higher notes, but it is ridiculously hard to go between falsetto and normal singing without having a gap of a few notes in between. Even Klaus Nomi had a gap, and his range was even wider than Mercury's. Nomi made Rob Halford look like Sylvester Stallone. In every way.

No-one can hit the notes like Steve Perry, not even Mercury. He (Perry) is without equal, and no grunge metal singer will ever come close no matter what anyone says here...end of.

Jules NYC wrote:

Well said.

Everyone has this impression that really great artists all struggle with mental illness and drugs.  Many do, but that's a choice, as with anything else.

Mental illness is not a choice.

KungPaoChic wrote:

Mental illness is not a choice.

The comment was already explained. But hey, good job rushing to post without reading the rest of the thread! Very well done!

Depression isn't a choice. Struggling with it often is, and making a life with someone else's always is. It might feel like Sophie's Choice, but it is a choice nonetheless.

Zack Zoll wrote:

That's why I'm disappointed, and not angry. I've had times in my life where I genuinely felt like giving up - just keep driving, right off the cliff. I didn't, because I thought of all my parents and my friends invested in me over 20-someodd years or whatever I was at the time, and how shitty that would be for them. Even if Cornell had cancer or something ... At least OD. It sounds shitty, but even though your family will never forgive you for being an irresponsible jackass, at least they'll still get life insurance, and they won't think that you chose not to be with them anymore. Instead you've screwed them over, just so they think more highly of you when you're gone.

Life is a zero-sum game. If you win the lotto, that money isn't free - it comes from all the losers. If you take yourself out, you're taking all you are and have with you. Your way out becomes someone else's way in.

I understand why people would feel what they feel, which is why I'm not angry. But so much of his work has been about life, and dealing with death('Just' Like Suicide' is about a bird he had to put out of its misery after it crashed into his window), that I'm disappointed that he didn't practice what he preached.

Not saying I've ever thought along those lines before, but most life insurance policies I've looked over still pay out if your policy is >2yrs old.

Zack Zoll wrote:
The comment was already explained. But hey, good job rushing to post without reading the rest of the thread! Very well done!

Depression isn't a choice. Struggling with it often is, and making a life with someone else's always is. It might feel like Sophie's Choice, but it is a choice nonetheless.

That's right -- I had not read to the end of the thread. That comment just stuck in my craw and as the original statement reads (without further explanation further on down the thread) it says mental illness is a choice.

But hey  thanks for reminding me why I don't log in or participate in threads on MM anymore.

Well done.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
One thing you learn as you get older, is all these bands and performers you imagine are super rich,yes they had a period of huge success, but then with most cases as the years fly by, their albums sell less...and less...but they still have the big house and cars and lifestyles.  they've basked in the sun for so long, suddenly they find the reality of aging fan base who have more important things in their lives now than buying albums and seeing shows....and a newer generation that doesnt have all that much interest in artists who they perceive as old or outdated.it has to make an impact mentally on them.

I suspect for these performers its a very difficult change to slowly be phased out. worse...as albums arent selling , all their money comes from the constant grind of touring...being away from home only now they arent given the best venues or transportation. still better than alot of peoples lives, but for people who have experienced the highs of success ,the lows must be pretty low when its all sliding away.

Chris Cornell was someone who would have achieved Rolling Stones level fame and ticket prices eventually. He could have toured into his 70s, easily. He is the Mick Jagger for people who're currently about 30-50 years old.

You forget that, as performers age, so do their fanbase - and also that fanbase's buying power matures with age. Boomers are easily spending $100 for a shitty seat at a Rolling Stones show now (I know because I've investigated it; I can't afford a Stones show and I make a comfy wage these days).  In another ten or 20 years, Gen Xers and older Millennials would be spending liberally for a good seat to see Chris Cornell fronting whatever band he was fronting at any given time.

KungPaoChic wrote:

That's right -- I had not read to the end of the thread. That comment just stuck in my craw and as the original statement reads (without further explanation further on down the thread) it says mental illness is a choice.

But hey  thanks for reminding me why I don't log in or participate in threads on MM anymore.

Well done.

It was very respectable of you to admit you were wrong; even with the extra argument thrown in.

I'm sure the person you called out appreciates it.

If more people responded to that situation like you just did, perhaps you wouldn't feel the need to leave.