Red Sky Photography wrote:
This continues today as I rarely see Models credited in the Pic of the Day or the 18+ contest.

Many, if not the majority, of the models from MM whom I’ve photographed over the many years are no longer on this site. I don’t mean no longer active, I mean they’ve retired from modeling and have deactivated their accounts. As such, if I were to credit them here, it wouldn’t be of much help to others – the profiles are dead. I would not be surprised if many other photographers are in the same situation, which might beg the question, “why bother to credit null accounts?”.

AgX wrote:
Many, if not the majority, of the models from MM whom I’ve photographed over the many years are no longer on this site. I don’t mean no longer active, I mean they’ve retired from modeling and have deactivated their accounts. As such, if I were to credit them here, it wouldn’t be of much help to others – the profiles are dead. I would not be surprised if many other photographers are in the same situation, which might beg the question, “why bother to credit null accounts?”.

When the MM platform was new, it was exciting, with new people joining everyday for a few years. Now after over 15 years of no real changes that can keep up with the new social media platforms that came later .. this website is slowly dying. There is currently a 3 to 1 ratio of photographers to models on here.  Many of the models I worked with from this site have left years ago as they've retired, and perhaps forget their log in.   There does not seem to be a method of marketing to get youth interested in this website.  Eventually we shall all die off and there will be no one on here.

AgX wrote:

Many, if not the majority, of the models from MM whom I’ve photographed over the many years are no longer on this site. I don’t mean no longer active, I mean they’ve retired from modeling and have deactivated their accounts. As such, if I were to credit them here, it wouldn’t be of much help to others – the profiles are dead. I would not be surprised if many other photographers are in the same situation, which might beg the question, “why bother to credit null accounts?”.

Yes, A lot of the models I shot with years ago have retired, but I recognize some models in the contests who are clearly still active but are not credited. It seems as if many photographers don't want to share any credit for the images they post. Model photography isn't solely the product of the photographer, it depends on the Model and any other team members, otherwise we might as well shoot landscapes and Bowls of Fruit.

Red Sky Photography wrote:

Yes, A lot of the models I shot with years ago have retired, but I recognize some models in the contests who are clearly still active but are not credited. It seems as if many photographers don't want to share any credit for the images they post. Model photography isn't solely the product of the photographer, it depends on the Model and any other team members, otherwise we might as well shoot landscapes and Bowls of Fruit.

I'm going to be in your area next month. Just saying.

Ivan123 wrote:
Back in the day (I am very old) I would pay models modestly and provide them with prints that I laboriously produced in my basement darkroom.  I did, I think, great quality but I was painfully slow working in the darkroom.  It was an effort to provide 4-5 prints.  Now photography is a hundred times easier than it was 40 years ago but modeling takes just as much time and energy and talent now as it did then.  So the number of photographers has grown enormously compared to the number of people who want to model.  No wonder modeling for free has lost its appeal.

It's the law of supply and demand. The demand for models increases with the number of photographers who want to do model photography, therefore the models can and do require payment for their time. The fees tend to increase when potential models are deterred from working as models by the abusive behaviour and/or negative attitude of some photographers, the OP being an obvious case in point. What model would actually want to work with a photographer who regards her as a nuisance, as a timewaster? For no financial reward?

Photography has become generally more convenient and less messy rather than easier I would say. I still develop black and white films, I haven't done any printing for a long time.

Red Sky Photography wrote:
It seems as if many photographers don't want to share any credit for the images they post.

Fair enough. Since I can’t (nor do I have any desire to) change the ways that others do their business/hobby/pastime, I don’t spend much energy on how or why they do what they do.

DeanLautermilch wrote:
A short addition to my website after two weeks of TFP cancellations.

https://deanlautermilch.com/the-games-t … dels-play/

Dean, do you subscribe to the theory that you get what you attract to you by your attitude, posts, thoughts, etc.?

Model MoRina wrote:
Such negativity - you blame everyone but yourself.  With your attitude towards women, I am surprised anyone shoots with you.

TFP shoots for pretty girls are a dime a dozen. If models are losing interest in your shoot between the time you schedule it and when it's supposed to happen, it's because YOU haven't given them a good enough reason to shoot with you over the other 100 guys with cameras/cell phones vying for their attention.

This is a truly awful take.

If you agree to do something, you have agreed to do it. Not showing up or cancelling at the last minute with some lame excuse (assuming normal, non-creep behavior by the photographer) is on the flake who did it and nobody else. Integrity shouldn't be a rare commodity.

That attitude reeks of entitlement and abject disrespect for other human beings and their time. "Pretty people get to crap on you, deal with it!" LOL.

EDIT: I'm in no way saying it was a good idea for this dude to publish what he did on his site, but every photographer who has shot TFP has dealt with at least one of the situations he described.

David M Russell wrote:
This is a truly awful take.

If you agree to do something, you have agreed to do it. Not showing up or cancelling at the last minute with some lame excuse (assuming normal, non-creep behavior by the photographer) is on the flake who did it and nobody else.

That attitude reeks of entitlement and abject disrespect for other human beings and their time.

Ideally, maybe. But in practice if a model agrees to do a TFP shoot and then finds something more interesting or financially rewarding to do, she will often cancel or in the worst case simply not show up. People also sometimes make lame excuses for cancelling paid shoots at short notice. Telling a photographer that you have to babysit is the thing to do if you really want to permanently alienate them.

JSouthworth wrote:

Ideally, maybe. But in practice if a model agrees to do a TFP shoot and then finds something more interesting or financially rewarding to do, she will often cancel or in the worst case simply not show up. People also sometimes make lame excuses for cancelling paid shoots at short notice.

"I got offered a paid gig that day, let's reschedule" is never an unacceptable answer. You'll notice that in what he wrote, he never mentioned any such scenario.

Just not showing up is just not cool, and that goes for everything, not just TFP shoots. Your friend says they're gonna meet you for a drink and doesn't show up? Not cool. Someone asks you to help move their couch and you agree but then don't show up? Not cool. I mean...is this such a difficult concept for people to understand?

I jumped into this thread because of a particularly odious response that translated as "pretty people get to be rude to you, it's your fault, and you have to like it". IMHO, that's a worse decision than this dude choosing to vent on his own website and then publicize it on MM.

David M Russell wrote:
Just not showing up is just not cool, and that goes for everything, not just TFP shoots. Your friend says they're gonna meet you for a drink and doesn't show up? Not cool. Someone asks you to help move their couch and you agree but then don't show up? Not cool. I mean...is this such a difficult concept for people to understand?

There's a difference though, which is that a model is usually a professional, not a friend from whom you can expect favors, or who would ask for favors. It's business, and different people have different ideas on how to go about it.

JSouthworth wrote:
There's a difference though, which is that a model is usually a professional, not a friend from whom you can expect favors, or who would ask for favors. It's business.

There's no difference. Do you feel it's okay to be rude to strangers just because they're strangers? Because it isn't.

Honor is a gift a person gives to themself.

BTW: None of the behavior described in the dude's rant can be considered professional. It's the opposite of professional. So your "it's a business and these are professionals" excuse doesn't wash.

C'mon. Do better.

David M Russell wrote:
There's no difference. Do you feel it's okay to be rude to strangers just because they're strangers? Because it isn't.

Honor is a gift a person gives to themself.

BTW: None of the behavior described in the dude's rant can be considered professional. It's the opposite of professional. So your "it's a business and these are professionals" excuse doesn't wash.

C'mon. Do better.

It's bad news when the model simply fails to show up, agreed, I've only known that to happen once. Quite often they arrive late because of travel problems. Cancelling at short notice? A little annoying perhaps, but nothing really to get excited about.

JSouthworth wrote:

It's bad news when the model simply fails to show up, agreed, I've known that to happen. Quite often they're late because of travel problems. Cancelling at short notice? A little annoying perhaps, but nothing really to get excited about.

LOL. Why are you going to such lengths to minimize/excuse rude and inconsiderate behavior?

I take pictures for a living. (No, I don't shoot models or fashion for a living.) I have a family. Kids. Responsibilities. All that noise.

If I block off a few hours of my week to shoot something with somebody and they don't show up or cancel at the last minute, that's not a mere inconvenience. It affects my schedule adversely. It's time I could have spent doing something else.

Do I bill paying clients for late cancellations? Yes. Full rate. Why? Same reason.

The easy answer for you in this thread is just to say rude people are rude and people who waste your time aren't cool. Not exactly controversial.

David M Russell wrote:
LOL. Why are you going to such lengths to minimize/excuse rude and inconsiderate behavior?

I take pictures for a living. (No, I don't shoot models or fashion for a living.) I have a family. Kids. Responsibilities. All that noise.

If I block off a few hours of my week to shoot something with somebody and they don't show up or cancel at the last minute, that's not a mere inconvenience. It affects my schedule adversely. It's time I could have spent doing something else.

Do I bill paying clients for late cancellations? Yes. Full rate. Why? Same reason.

The easy answer for you in this thread is just to say rude people are rude and people who waste your time aren't cool. Not exactly controversial.

I just don't think it's realistic to expect too much from a model you don't know, who you've never worked with before, who may have all kinds of issues that you know nothing about, who may not have the same standards as you. The element of surprise is part of the fun.

JSouthworth wrote:

I just don't think it's realistic to expect too much from a model you don't know, who you've never worked with before, who may have all kinds of issues that you know nothing about, who may not have the same standards as you. The element of surprise is part of the fun.

So you agree with the OP’s rant. You can’t expect much from TFP models.

Now, let’s try again. Rude people who are inconsiderate and waste other people’s time aren’t cool. The least you can do is pick up the phone and cancel and spare everyone else the time and trouble. Honesty works.

David M Russell wrote:
So you agree with the OP’s rant. You can’t expect much from TFP models.

Now, let’s try again. Rude people who are inconsiderate and waste other people’s time aren’t cool. The least you can do is pick up the phone and cancel and spare everyone else the time and trouble. Honesty works.

I certainly don't agree with the OP as I've already made clear and moreover, I don't usually do photo shoots on a TFP basis, all of mine have been paid or part paid. Asking for TFP is generally a waste of time, as the OP seems to have found out the hard way.

David M Russell wrote:
Allow me to quote you back to yourself:

"I just don't think it's realistic to expect too much from a model you don't know..."
and
"TFP is generally a waste of time."

Try looking at the thread title again; "The Games that TFP Models Play". What is a TFP model exactly?

The seems to be an inverted logic to the OP's thinking whereby when a model applies for one of his TFP castings, he assumes that she must be a timewaster who can't get paid work and therefore doesn't deserve any respect. This is why I think he has low self-esteem, he needs to feel superior to the people he works with.

I've seen books on glamour photography which advise amateurs against employing professional models, on the basis that a professional model can show up and embarrass an inept or inexperienced photographer, which might happen if the photographer feels that he has to be in control. But a successful photo shoot is really a collaborative effort by the photographer and model. Directing a model into poses during the shoot takes too long and doesn't produce good results.

The important thing is to find the right model, or models and usually they will require payment for their time.

David M Russell wrote:
This is a truly awful take.

If you agree to do something, you have agreed to do it. Not showing up or cancelling at the last minute with some lame excuse (assuming normal, non-creep behavior by the photographer) is on the flake who did it and nobody else. Integrity shouldn't be a rare commodity.

That attitude reeks of entitlement and abject disrespect for other human beings and their time. "Pretty people get to crap on you, deal with it!" LOL.

EDIT: I'm in no way saying it was a good idea for this dude to publish what he did on his site, but every photographer who has shot TFP has dealt with at least one of the situations he described.

You have no idea the crazy things that often happen after a photographer schedules a shoot with a model. Let me cite a few examples... ALL of which have happened to me in the past:

Photographer asks for phone number so he can confirm details/call on shoot day. Model gives number, and photographer proceeds to blow up her phone with multiple texts, many of which have nothing to do with the shoot.
Photographer calls/texts late at night. "hey" "what are you doing?"
Photographer starts adding concepts/looks to original shoot that considerably change the amount of time required.
Photographer starts changing the agreed details of the shoot to include elements outside of model's stated boundaries.
Photographer starts asking personal questions.
Photographer starts asking if model is married or has a boyfriend.
Photographer asks model to go on a date.
Photographer starts complaining that his wife won't have sex with him anymore.
Photographer starts gossiping about other models.
Photographer sends a dick picture.
Photographer starts talking negatively about other photographers.
Photographer starts sending graphic pictures of other models to show that other models do things they say they don't.
Photographer asks if model would be interested in taking pictures of him.

So yeah, models have reasons for cancelling after agreeing to a shoot. But you can go ahead and believe people who cry about their models not showing up. Everyone is entitled to their own fantasy.

Model MoRina wrote:
You have no idea the crazy things that often happen after a photographer schedules a shoot with a model.

I'm sorry those things happened to you. I've heard plenty of awful stories from models. And yet...they are completely irrelevant to what you wrote that I responded to.

Anyway. Congratulations on writing a gripe rant like the one the OP wrote and everybody is shredding him for.

JSouthworth wrote:
Try looking at the thread title again; "The Games that TFP Models Play". What is a TFP model exactly?

TL;DR

Sorry, you should have led with "It isn't okay to be rude and/or inconsiderate to other people."

David M Russell wrote:
I jumped into this thread because of a particularly odious response that translated as "pretty people get to be rude to you, it's your fault, and you have to like it". IMHO, that's a worse decision than this dude choosing to vent on his own website and then publicize it on MM.

One sentence and a link then never posted after that.  All he did was make this a promotion for his website.

DeanLautermilch wrote:
A short addition to my website after two weeks of TFP cancellations.

GSmithPhoto wrote:
Dean, do you subscribe to the theory that you get what you attract to you by your attitude, posts, thoughts, etc.?

I read his rantings on his website. Wish I could take that time spent doing that back.

DeanLautermilch wrote:
Just had another 'Scheduler' as I so accurately describe on my page. https://deanlautermilch.com/the-games-t … dels-play/ .

The model lives over 100 miles from me and we talked for an hour and she did all the things the 'Scheduler' does and knows my work and says what a perfect fit I would be. Then came the gaff with the appointment being off in the distance a few months as she had so much to do each weekend. I was polite since talking to her and said I only plan a weekend in advance.

Two months pass and she contacts me again to see about an time over six weeks from now. I texted back that in all my years of model shoots it is either the week of first contact or it never happens. I was so tempted to send her my page but did not.

Thanks for all the agree with me.

Personally I think it's useful to have some lead time, two or three weeks in which to work out picture ideas for a particular model, and if necessary purchase additional clothes, props and any other things that may be needed. I start out with a basic idea of what I want to shoot and then adapt it to suit the model, this takes time so I try to book a shoot two or three weeks in advance, or even more if the model agrees. There's really no point in rushing things unless there's an urgent deadline that you have to meet. A few days before the shoot I usually message the model to outline the picture ideas.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When I first joined MM there was a photographer here who offered trades at her NY studio.  This was someone I thought I might know of based on her style.  I reached out to her and I was correct.  She is a world known shooter.  Published everywhere and a fantastic artist and she had models FLAKE from this site.  She left MM after a few weeks.  The 'quality' of your work doesn't always matter.  I've had models drive hours to shoot and others who've flaked who lived 20 minutes away.

The OP has been at this a while and has worked with a lot of models.  I get how he feels but posting those frustrations here just isn't wise nor is having his view on his website.  Keep things positive.  Years ago at a workshop in Texas most of the models flaked.  This when they were to be paid.  I've had models shoot TF nude in filthy buildings.   A few bought really expensive dresses to model in.  Two gave me outfits other models could shoot in.  Try and not be angry about what people do because you can't control their actions.  Focus on those who show up and put in the effort.

Last and I really want this to be heard.  The median age in America is 38.  There are just fewer young models to work with.

You are right!  It's not about the quality of work, people can and will flake on us. It's important not to take it personal. We must have hundreds of past threads about flakes on these forums!   I've posted repeatedly with pointers on how to "reduce the number of flakes and lates" as a discussion starter in a positive direction.  All the ranting threads in the World wont prevent a model from flaking or being late, it's going to happen.

There are fewer models available now than in the past.   The aging population is partly to blame, but that is something that can be overcome when a person decides to get over their ageism.  Certainly the product marketing and social media are hooked on youth, but I know of a few women who were "super models" of 80's and 90's who I would love to photograph!   I could not afford them when they were at their peak, but now .. who knows?  So there is certainly a chance for mature models to make a come back.

There are many other web platforms to choose from to display images, and even do your own modeling.  From Instagram, to Tik Tok, the youth have other ways of dipping into photography and modeling.  They can even make money (OnlyFans) without the commitment that we have had to put into it with time and money.   Most youth not as interested in modeling, or even photography as they used to be, which means a platform like MM is considered obsolete. They take pictures with their phones. The ratio of members here is three photographers for every one model.  That is not even considering how many are no longer active.

The  OP of this post has been here long enough to know what this website has become.  I called him out as simply doing a promo for his blog. He didn't engage  any of us in this thread at all.  His second comment was thanking those who agreed with him.  He didn't care to engage in discussion with those who were not all about his rant on his website. So what?  He has models who flake on him for TFP's .. haven't we all?  Back 10 to 15 years ago, a thread like this would have been dozens of pages within a short time.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Remember life happens and these are often young women with complicated situations.  Cars break down.  People often change their minds and won't let you know.  Its not personal.  Don't make it personal.  These aren't dates.  I ask everyone to confirm before a session.  No call or message and I assume no shoot.  Sometimes things work out, sometimes they don't.

Sound advice. If you want to be considered a professional, don't behave like something else.