SitronStudio wrote:
Has anyone heard of such a thing? I've recently cancelled shoots with two models on here who claimed they had "managers". These were "models" who only had cell pics in their ports. One was obviously the model's mother. She even contacted me wanting info about the shoot, and her email address began with "Mrs." I politely informed her that models don't have managers, they have agencies, and since the model wasn't a minor, I wasn't comfortable working with someone who had their mother pretend to be their manager.
The other model emailed me the night before the scheduled shoot and said they'd be arriving with their manager and managers assistant. I replied that agencies don't send anyone, especially two people along to a test shoot to hold your hand. I honestly have no problem with models bringing a friend. Some drive two or three hours to get to my studio and I understand wanting a little company for the  drive.
Where are model wannabee's getting this idea? Do they assume it's like the music industry where artists do have managers? I know they're trying to sound very professional, but come off sounding silly and a little dramatic (I like to avoid drama!).
Or is it me? Are there actually model managers out there?

Here we go again....dude you must say that famous word I use with all Models...

NO!

First you must have a Career to have a Manager.  A manager cannot hire you jobs, a manager can only Manage you career.  Plus what major/lil bit of money you are making, the manager take is about 10-20%.

SitronStudio wrote:
I know they're trying to sound very professional, but come off sounding silly and a little dramatic (I like to avoid drama!).
Or is it me? Are there actually model managers out there?

The term used to describe these so called managers is a "sluggo" and its mostly controlling BF/Spouses/Pimps, etc... This is quite common of naive internet models that have no clue or internet diva's that think they will next years winner of ANTM!

MDS-Photos wrote:
I turned down a model the other day who said she wanted to bring a "assistant". I asked her what her "assistant" would be doing. She said "assisting me and to protect me in case you are a serial killer or rapist". Needless to say, the shoot never happened.

You got to give the model credit for being honest!

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

NO wait your almost there.....Do you have a career that warrants a manager? NO!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Why are people so negative about model managers?

Look --
   ---  We like our models young,
   ---  Young people might be uncomfortable negotiating agreements,
   ---  Young people might need help in being organized,
   ---  Parents have heard horror stories about photographers,
   ---  Parents want their young daughters to be safe,
   ---  In some cases, a manager might help.

So, when photographers get all up in a snit about a model with a manager, I assume that they don't like managers because managers get in the way of the photographer taking advantage of a model's inexperience & naivety.

I particularly get annoyed about comments like, "Hey, you ain't good enough to model".  ...
   ...  That's an unsolicited critique.
   ...  If she's not good enough to be a model, why are you talking with her?

Guys, have a little tolerance & understanding.  It doesn't cost you much.  And remember, a manager does not necessarily mean an escort that attends the photo session & gets in the way.

It cost a bundle if you have no career! 10-20% from nothing cost a ton of money. IF the model has a agency..they are already taking out 15-20%....

IN today's world..it is a joke. This is a mute point. I think an assistant would be more in order. Managers cannot retrieve you jobs. But to make my point once again...What Career?

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
NO wait your almost there.....Do you have a career that warrants a manager? NO!

Career no. Large project yes. The person who organizes behind the scenes for plays is a "stage manager". What do you call the person who does that with large scale group photo shoots?

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
It cost a bundle if you have no career! 10-20% from nothing cost a ton of money. IF the model has a agency..they are already taking out 15-20%....

IN today's world..it is a joke. This is a mute point. I think an assistant would be more in order. Managers cannot retrieve you jobs. But to make my point once again...What Career?

I don't understand this post at all.

If a model & her manager can't find work, how does it cost anyone a bundle, and why should the photographer care?

If a model with a manager can't find work, why should a photographer care?

If a model does or does not have an agency, why should a photographer care?

What's the difference between having a manager & having an agency?

What is the difference between an assistance and a manager?  And why does the photographer care?

What does "managers cannot retrieve you jobs" mean?

And when you say "What career" -- if the model doesn't have a career, why are you talking about her and why chime in?

Like I said, I don't understand.

SitronStudio wrote:
Has anyone heard of such a thing? I've recently cancelled shoots with two models on here who claimed they had "managers". These were "models" who only had cell pics in their ports. One was obviously the model's mother. She even contacted me wanting info about the shoot, and her email address began with "Mrs." I politely informed her that models don't have managers, they have agencies, and since the model wasn't a minor, I wasn't comfortable working with someone who had their mother pretend to be their manager.
The other model emailed me the night before the scheduled shoot and said they'd be arriving with their manager and managers assistant. I replied that agencies don't send anyone, especially two people along to a test shoot to hold your hand. I honestly have no problem with models bringing a friend. Some drive two or three hours to get to my studio and I understand wanting a little company for the  drive.
Where are model wannabee's getting this idea? Do they assume it's like the music industry where artists do have managers? I know they're trying to sound very professional, but come off sounding silly and a little dramatic (I like to avoid drama!).
Or is it me? Are there actually model managers out there?

They all over tha joint, I call them PIMPS

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Why are people so negative about model managers?

Look --
   ---  We like our models young,
   ---  Young people might be uncomfortable negotiating agreements,
   ---  Young people might need help in being organized,
   ---  Parents have heard horror stories about photographers,
   ---  Parents want their young daughters to be safe,
   ---  In some cases, a manager might help.

So, when photographers get all up in a snit about a model with a manager, I assume that they don't like managers because managers get in the way of the photographer taking advantage of a model's inexperience & naivety.

I particularly get annoyed about comments like, "Hey, you ain't good enough to model".  ...
   ...  That's an unsolicited critique.
   ...  If she's not good enough to be a model, why are you talking with her?

Guys, have a little tolerance & understanding.  It doesn't cost you much.  And remember, a manager does not necessarily mean an escort that attends the photo session & gets in the way.

Well that is reading a lot into it isn't it. 

People have little tolerance for "managers" because models don't normally have or need managers, they may have bookers from an agency but that is about it.  Usually these so called managers are just in the way (if not a total sluggo) and add nothing.  I like others just click next or call an agency.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I don't understand this post at all.

If a model & her manager can't find work, how does it cost anyone a bundle, and why should the photographer care?

If a model with a manager can't find work, why should a photographer care?

If a model does or does not have an agency, why should a photographer care?

What's the difference between having a manager & having an agency?

What is the difference between an assistance and a manager?  And why does the photographer care?

What does "managers cannot retrieve you jobs" mean?

And when you say "What career" -- if the model doesn't have a career, why are you talking about her and why chime in?

Like I said, I don't understand.

OP is talking about Models and Manager...NOT photographers. Never said anything about a photographer...wow...and a manager cannot provide you with a Job...only an agency can. Ok..we on the same page now? Nothing to do with photography....got it. never said it.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
{snip}
So, when photographers get all up in a snit about a model with a manager, I assume that they don't like managers because managers get in the way of the photographer taking advantage of a model's inexperience & naivety.
{snip}

I have to assume that you haven't had much experience with the type of "sluggos" I referred to, or that you are acting as a manager yourself. Most photographers on here can't relate any positive experiences with a "model manager".

Your statement indicates that you consider yourself a white knight, and are ready to defend the models at any price. I have no quarrel with parents who want to help manage a beginning career for a very young model. I have worked with several of those and have had no problem with any of them.

I have never tried to take advantage of any model's "inexperience & naivety" and I resent that implication, from you or from anyone else. Models who have worked with me will back up that statement.

My problems with model managers?

1)  They've convinced models to turn over the pics I've taken of "their models" so that they can sell the photos as their own.

2). They have shown up unannounced at my shoots, trying to control everything from makeup to sets and posing.

3). One local model manager, knowing that I would cancel a shoot if they showed up, calls "his models" on cell phone during my shoots, trying to control the shoot in that way.

4). They've convinced a lot of amateur models who have nothing but cell phone pics to accept nothing but paid work. This usually causes the model to be ignored by most photographers, and the model will usually just give up after a while.

5). They have taken over model's profiles on here, and completely removed any of my photos to satisfy their own personal vendettas. In a lot of cases, these models have totally quit checking their pages here; they've given up.

6). They've stalked my mm account and tried to convince models and muas not to work with me. Their information comes from tags and friend requests. One went so far as to report to models that I've worked with that I had committed suicide to convince them that my account was a fake.


None of this qualifies as any attempt by myself to take advantage of anyone. I think most photographers on here will agree with me that "sluggos" are not an advantage to anyone.

MDS-Photos wrote:
I turned down a model the other day who said she wanted to bring a "assistant". I asked her what her "assistant" would be doing. She said "assisting me and to protect me in case you are a serial killer or rapist". Needless to say, the shoot never happened.

+1

When a potential model starts slinging terms around like murder, rape, dead bodies, it's time to say, "Next!"

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Every time I've come across an internet model with a manager, it's basically been code for escort boyfriend.

Don't leave out "Pimp"

Screamvina wrote:

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

Career no. Large project yes. The person who organizes behind the scenes for plays is a "stage manager". What do you call the person who does that with large scale group photo shoots?

That person would be an event organizer.  Event if the title was "manager" they are not the same as a model manager.  The person is responsible for organizing and event on behalf of several people in a variety of roles (model, hair, mua, photographer, location rental etc.)  Usually the event organizer hires some models they have never met before, or at the very least they don't earn money from the model's other jobs.  They might make money from the group shoot, but that is how they get paid for planning the event.

It is possible that a model manager might take on this job in order to book work for "his" models - in which case it's up to the clients (in this case the photographers) to decide if they want to participate. 

Group shoots need for there to be one person in charge of planning the whole event.  For most Model Mayhem (non-group) shoots this person is the photographer.  And most photographers would rather deal directly with the model than the additional steps of dealing with a manager.

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

Screamvina wrote:
Career no. Large project yes. The person who organizes behind the scenes for plays is a "stage manager". What do you call the person who does that with large scale group photo shoots?

Azimuth Arts wrote:
That person would be an event organizer.  Event if the title was "manager" they are not the same as a model manager.  The person is responsible for organizing and event on behalf of several people in a variety of roles (model, hair, mua, photographer, location rental etc.)  Usually the event organizer hires some models they have never met before, or at the very least they don't earn money from the model's other jobs.  They might make money from the group shoot, but that is how they get paid for planning the event.

It is possible that a model manager might take on this job in order to book work for "his" models - in which case it's up to the clients (in this case the photographers) to decide if they want to participate. 

Group shoots need for there to be one person in charge of planning the whole event.  For most Model Mayhem (non-group) shoots this person is the photographer.  And most photographers would rather deal directly with the model than the additional steps of dealing with a manager.

Thank you!

Screamvina wrote:
Hmmmmm..... I don't mean to derail the thread, but we do group shoots and we have one person responsible for coordinating with the models, the photographers, the make-up artists, the hair stylists, and the venue. Would that be considered a "manager"?

At our events, we refer to that as the "Model Coordinator."  The difference is that person works for me, not for the models.  She is the person assigned to re-confirm the models before the events, get them signed in when they arrive, collect the appropriate paperwork and ID and then be sure they are on the right set at the appointed time.

What you are describing, which is what I described, is not a manager.  Nobody here is objecting to that.  This thread is about the hang on boyfriiend or wannabe who is trying to control the model's life.

Renard Photography wrote:
once again the blind leading the blind and it seems most of you have no clue:

As people increasingly do many things, from acting, music, dancing it not unlikely that one would encounter managers.  They are not "pimps" and are quite often the only reason a talent makes it in hard times.

The loyalty in Hollywood is far greater to the managers than it is to the agents.  You might want to investigate.

I see no problem with having an agent and or manager or publicist in any transaction as long as they are pros, nor should you.

Most seriously talented people will have a team behind them, and yes it could be parents, tell Taylor Swift you won't work with her because she has her mom as manager and talent that model have them too.

Amateurs, wether photographers, models, managers, stylists or whatever are to be avoided, but if any of you think this attitude of belittling managers prepares you for the real industry and other than shooting some chick on a beach you are dead wrong and really not understanding the way things work in today's climate.

No offense, but it seems you are the one with no clue. Musicians have managers, actors have managers. Models have agencies. The booker gets the model jobs. I can't imagine an agency dealing with a model who has her own manager trying to do the same thing. Kate Moss doesn't have a manager (except maybe for her money), she has an agency and a booker that get her jobs. Any internet model that approaches me for a shoot and mentions their "manager" may as well be photographed holding a sign that says "Warning- Diva ahead, drama will follow"
Taylor Swift was  a minor when she started, and many underage actors and musicians have a parent as their manager (Justin Bieber). That's not unusual.

SitronStudio wrote:
No offense, but it seems you are the one with no clue. Musicians have managers, actors have managers. Models have agencies. The booker gets the model jobs. I can't imagine an agency dealing with a model who has her own manager trying to do the same thing. Kate Moss doesn't have a manager (except maybe for her money), she has an agency and a booker that get her jobs. Any internet model that approaches me for a shoot and mentions their "manager" may as well be photographed holding a sign that says "Warning- Diva ahead, drama will follow"
Taylor Swift was  a minor when she started, and many underage actors and musicians have a parent as their manager (Justin Bieber). That's not unusual.

Um....There are agencies for actors and musicians too.

Screamvina wrote:

Um....There are agencies for actors and musicians too.

True. I think we're getting caught up in word definitions. The models could have told me they're bringing their agents with them, but the result is the same. They don't have an agent. They have a friend or parent pretending to be. If they had an agency, I'm happy to deal with them (and do). Pretending you have a manager or agent screams drama. I don't need it.

SitronStudio wrote:

No offense, but it seems you are the one with no clue. Musicians have managers, actors have managers. Models have agencies. The booker gets the model jobs. I can't imagine an agency dealing with a model who has her own manager trying to do the same thing. Kate Moss doesn't have a manager (except maybe for her money), she has an agency and a booker that get her jobs. Any internet model that approaches me for a shoot and mentions their "manager" may as well be photographed holding a sign that says "Warning- Diva ahead, drama will follow"
Taylor Swift was  a minor when she started, and many underage actors and musicians have a parent as their manager (Justin Bieber). That's not unusual.

Though I agree with your stated premise in part, if I had to pick which one of you were clueless, I think you'd win the prize.

SitronStudio wrote:
No offense, but it seems you are the one with no clue. Musicians have managers, actors have managers. Models have agencies. The booker gets the model jobs. I can't imagine an agency dealing with a model who has her own manager trying to do the same thing. Kate Moss doesn't have a manager (except maybe for her money), she has an agency and a booker that get her jobs. Any internet model that approaches me for a shoot and mentions their "manager" may as well be photographed holding a sign that says "Warning- Diva ahead, drama will follow"
Taylor Swift was  a minor when she started, and many underage actors and musicians have a parent as their manager (Justin Bieber). That's not unusual.

Here is the problem, you are talking on two different wavelengths.  There is a difference between a legitimate manager in LA and a sluggo.   Actors and musicians often have both a manager and an agent.  Models who are very successful also tend to have a manager as well.  The reason is that it separates the decision process from the agent.  It eliminates the "conflict of interest."  The agent is looking for the booking.  The manager is looking out for her career.

There are, however, reasons why a legitimate manager might sign a new model.  If a girl has a lot of potential, but has a problem, the manager might decide to sign her to get past it.  His job isn't to get her bookings.  His job is to get her signed with an agent.

If a model, for example, was 5;'9" with a perfect look, but was 21 years old, her age would be called a "disability."  It is harder for a new model to get signed with Ford at 21 than 17.  A legitimate agent would find ways to get her recognition so that the agency would look past her age.  A manager might help a model with a height challenge, an unuusal ethnicity or some other structural problem.  A professional manager knows how to look at disibilaties to see if they can be overcome.

That is entirely different than the boyfriend, mother or inexperienced photographer who simply wants to be "her manager."  He doesn't bring anything to the table.  Indeed, a "sluggo" hurts a model far more than he helps her.

So, as I see it, the two of you aren't talking about the same thing.

ei Total Productions wrote:
Here is the problem, you are talking on two different wavelengths.  There is a difference between a legitimate manager in LA and a sluggo.   Actors and musicians often have both a manager and an agent.  Models who are very successful also tend to have a manager as well.  The reason is that it separates the decision process from the agent.  It eliminates the "conflict of interest."  The agent is looking for the booking.  The manager is looking out for her career.

There are, however, reasons why a legitimate manager might sign a new model.  If a girl has a lot of potential, but has a problem, the manager might decide to sign her to get past it.  His job isn't to get her bookings.  His job is to get her signed with an agent.

If a model, for example, was 5;'9" with a perfect look, but was 21 years old, her age would be called a "disability."  It is harder for a new model to get signed with Ford at 21 than 17.  A legitimate agent would find ways to get her recognition so that the agency would look past her age.  A manager might help a model with a height challenge, an unusual ethnicity or some other structural problem.  A professional manager knows how to look at disabilities to see if they can be overcome.

That is entirely different than the boyfriend, mother or inexperienced photographer who simply wants to be "her manager."  He doesn't bring anything to the table.  Indeed, a "sluggo" hurts a model far more than he helps her.

So, as I see it, the two of you aren't talking about the same thing.

Ah-ha! Well put!

Renard Photography wrote:
once again the blind leading the blind and it seems most of you have no clue:

As people increasingly do many things, from acting, music, dancing it not unlikely that one would encounter managers.  They are not "pimps" and are quite often the only reason a talent makes it in hard times.

The loyalty in Hollywood is far greater to the managers than it is to the agents.  You might want to investigate.

I see no problem with having an agent and or manager or publicist in any transaction as long as they are pros, nor should you.

Most seriously talented people will have a team behind them, from the very start, what is the problem????  And yes it could be parents, tell Taylor Swift you won't work with her because she has her mom as manager. 

Amateurs, wether photographers, models, managers, stylists or whatever are to be avoided, but if any of you think this attitude of belittling managers prepares you for the real industry and other than shooting some chick on a beach you are dead wrong and really not understanding the way things work in today's climate.

Hi, Jean.   I suspect you're on different pages here.   A working model might have a agency.   A working actor, singer, etc. might also but I don't think some model on MM with cell phone like shots as mentioned by the OP needs a manager.   Most of these goofs couldn't manage a lemonade stand.  Odds are this is a very new model who's being managed by a bf or a parent or some other clueless fool.   As a practice I don't work with agency models but the few I have arranged tests with me without any managers.   

On hobby sites like MM these folks tend to hurt models chances of doing much.   The OP is a solid shooter and no doubt could have added some decent images to their profiles.   Somehow, I don't think the OP or many of us are dealing with a talent like Taylor Swift.   Its that old apples and oranges debate and managers are prunes on MM.   My fruit allegory.

SitronStudio wrote:
Has anyone heard of such a thing? I've recently cancelled shoots with two models on here who claimed they had "managers". These were "models" who only had cell pics in their ports. One was obviously the model's mother. She even contacted me wanting info about the shoot, and her email address began with "Mrs." I politely informed her that models don't have managers, they have agencies, and since the model wasn't a minor, I wasn't comfortable working with someone who had their mother pretend to be their manager.
The other model emailed me the night before the scheduled shoot and said they'd be arriving with their manager and managers assistant. I replied that agencies don't send anyone, especially two people along to a test shoot to hold your hand. I honestly have no problem with models bringing a friend. Some drive two or three hours to get to my studio and I understand wanting a little company for the  drive.
Where are model wannabee's getting this idea? Do they assume it's like the music industry where artists do have managers? I know they're trying to sound very professional, but come off sounding silly and a little dramatic (I like to avoid drama!).
Or is it me? Are there actually model managers out there?

Pro agencies do not send a baby sitter with the model.  The models I work with have no legit reason to have a "Model manager!"   It's a big red flag for "trouble ahead!"  I would cancel any shoot where a model insisted they bring their "manager!"  No way!

ForeverFotos wrote:
Once a model tells me she has a "manager", I usually just move on to another model who knows better.

  Let's keep doing that! 

I have nothing against legit talent managers.  I was a manager of music talent for a while.  However there is a big difference between the legit managers (most models do not need a manager) and the sluggos who are really just controlling thugs making money off the hapless "model" ...  but in fact is destroying her career.

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
I think an assistant would be more in order. Managers cannot retrieve you jobs. But to make my point once again...What Career?

The "models" I shoot with are not "Supermodels" like those of the 80's.  They don't need managers, nor are they found by me through an agency.  There are times when the model or myself may elect to have an assistant. I don't have a problem with that.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hi, Jean.   I suspect you're on different pages here.   A working model might have a agency.   A working actor, singer, etc. might also but I don't think some model on MM with cell phone like shots as mentioned by the OP needs a manager.   Most of these goofs couldn't manage a lemonade stand.  Odds are this is a very new model who's being managed by a bf or a parent or some other clueless fool.   As a practice I don't work with agency models but the few I have arranged tests with me without any managers.   

On hobby sites like MM these folks tend to hurt models chances of doing much.   The OP is a solid shooter and no doubt could have added some decent images to their profiles.   Somehow, I don't think the OP or many of us are dealing with a talent like Taylor Swift.   Its that old apples and oranges debate and managers are prunes on MM.   My fruit allegory.

Of course I understand the difference, but as this is a site for conversation I would like to point out, that when I first worked with Taylor she was neither signed nor a star and her mother called me.  I had no prejudice other than the ones mentioned, I will not work with goofs, pimps or the like, but this was a genuine attempt to promote a young talent and I cannot tell you how many of those calls turn happily into career long relationships.  Just saying, it is better to keep an open mind than to label an entire group of people as always a negative. 
Always keep an open mind.