Epic Exposures LLC wrote:
TO be quite honest, I have NEVER paid a model. I get paid by them, but I even get non paid nude pics. I do help them with gas money if they are pretty and drove a little ways to get here. A model is born with a great body, however I have paid thousands in equipment, and thousands of hours in time, therefore everyone pays me if it's not TF.

Just put some great stuff out there and they will come looking for you.

Yes, yes - no problem with that

But I don't WANT to shoot TF, because this means I am obligated to editing the photos in a reasonable time frame.

So I pay to remove that obligation.

Craig Thomson wrote:
I've been shooting for a few years and have only paid to shoot one model.

I beg a lot.

This is exactly my point, if we were the kind of people paying model's asking price, then they wouldn't still be asking for that price because we wouldn't pay it. The fact is that someone is matching those bids, just frequently enough for models to have asking prices that high.

We know people pay them, this isn't a mystery, the girls love the GWCs. We know there's a lot of barter in this community as well, but this doesn't answer how photographers can be expected to organize shoots given their low earning power (as solely photographers)

its disproportionate and I would like to know how this was intended to work. perhaps if it was a perfect circle of value exchange, then that would make sense... a few hundred - thousand dollars given to the model+mua+studio would eventually make its way back to the photographer. But that isn't how it works.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

Yes, yes - no problem with that

But I don't WANT to shoot TF, because this means I am obligated to editing the photos in a reasonable time frame.

So I pay to remove that obligation.

You don't want to pay models. You don't want to shoot TFP. I would strongly recommend yu consider landscape photography. Or an alternative, find clients to pay both you and the model.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
How are photographers supposed to afford models

quit playing let's take pictures.  go get some clients who use models.

Doug Lester wrote:

You don't want to pay models. You don't want to shoot TFP. I would strongly recommend yu consider landscape photography. Or an alternative, find clients to pay both you and the model.

oh this isn't about me! lol, I already mentioned in my original post that I'm not just a photographer

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
But I don't WANT to shoot TF, because this means I am obligated to editing the photos in a reasonable time frame.

So I pay to remove that obligation.

You don't want to do trades, you don't want to be hired by the models, and yet you rant about paying models?

I don't see a lot of other options.

D M M  wrote:
This idea of the photographer paying the model does not actually occur in the, how can I put this delicately, not "real world" industry. The photographer is paid by a third part client; models and photographers do not profit, really, off of one another.

I realize this.

Yet on THIS site, the third party client is prohibited, but the rates remain the same.

D M M  wrote:
Most models are not making (and do not charge) the same amount as an adult escort.

Its seen it frequently enough to make the comparison. I usually just laugh about it, since the general idea behind consumerism and economic theory is that one would pay MORE for the more exclusive service

this time I made a thread about it

D M M  wrote:
This idea of the photographer paying the model does not actually occur in the, how can I put this delicately, not "real world" industry. The photographer is paid by a third part client; models and photographers do not profit, really, off of one another.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
I realize this.

Yet on THIS site, the third party client is prohibited, but the rates remain the same.

Actually, there are few, if any, models on this site who seriously quote "real industry" rates of $400-$2000/hr for freelance work.  I've paid from $15 to $100/hr for models, and seen rates from $7.50/hr to $200/hr, not counting trades of course.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
The nerve...

I know, I usually don't refer to the class system to blatantly, but photography is a working class trade.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

I realize this.

Yet on THIS site, the third party client is prohibited, but the rates remain the same.

I'm dying to know who these models are who demand rates akin to what a third party client would pay. I know you cannot indulge me, of course. I have always worked with photographers who book me for their portfolio development to negotiable a rate that is reasonable FOR THEM. I would feel uncomfortable accepting a shoot from a photographer that paid above a certain wage, in fact. I have, literally, a wage ceiling. I suppose this has a lot to do with my genre (fashion and commercial, but especially commercial fashion) and the fact that, for my entire career up until this point, I have only ever worked for third party clients. But, I do know a good number of models who offer extremely reasonable rates and negotiate closely with photographers, just as I do.

Ginger Ryan wrote:
You're only worth what your market will pay. My market's paying. Yours seem not to be since you're beating a dead horse.

Cosign

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:

Cosign

Ginger Ryan wrote:
No model I know charges anywhere near what an escort charges (I know a few on both sides of the issue).

I just browse local availability sometimes, there's quite of few of them that do. But they may just be fishing to see who bites their rates.

Art of the nude wrote:

Actually, there are few, if any, models on this site who seriously quote "real industry" rates of $400-$2000/hr for freelance work.  I've paid from $15 to $100/hr for models, and seen rates from $7.50/hr to $200/hr, not counting trades of course.

Really, few models quote serious "real industry" rates ever, period. His/her booker does. The kind of jobs that pay $400-$2000/hr are found in the fashion and commercial sector, and you cannot freelance (successfully) in these genres.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

I just browse local availability sometimes, there's quite of few of them that do. But they may just be fishing to see who bites their rates.

You're probably right. People do this in every industry. It's not just us.

Ginger Ryan wrote:
You're only worth what your market will pay. My market's paying. Yours seem not to be since you're beating a dead horse.

It's the photographer's job to sell their images. It's the model's job to sell herself to the photographers. No model I know charges anywhere near what an escort charges (I know a few on both sides of the issue).

On the other hand, if you stop hiring escorts as models, you'll pay a lot less and get more use out of them.

This is not true, as a blanket statement. I sell myself to third party clients. This may be Sony (I wish for this booking!), this may be Macy's (I double wish for this booking!!). Or, it may be a designer, an online clothing boutique, a jewelry company, a makeup company, and more.

Ginger Ryan wrote:
You're only worth what your market will pay. My market's paying. Yours seem not to be since you're beating a dead horse.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
Cosign

Girls, its not about MY market, or my licensing regime, its about the earning potential of photographers. This is a readily available number. Now granted, travelling freelance models aren't going to be talking about their 401k and dividends either, but on this site, where the third party client is prohibited, who are you advertising your rates to? The high earner that will responsibly afford your rate who is also a full time photographer? unlikely

D M M  wrote:

This is not true, as a blanket statement. I sell myself to third party clients. This may be Sony (I wish for this booking!), this may be Macy's (I double wish for this booking!!). Or, it may be a designer, an online clothing boutique, a jewelry company, a makeup company, and more.

True. I stand corrected.

Elizabeth Claret wrote:
Don't you have two kidneys? Sell one. Pay models. ???? Profit.

You're working in an internet industry, which is vastly different than the real modeling industry.

You don't want to pay them, offer them something comparable. And I'm sorry, but $50 an hour for an adult escort? You deserve the gonorrhea you get from that.

LOL your posts always get me...

Elizabeth Claret wrote:
You don't want to pay them, offer them something comparable. And I'm sorry, but $50 an hour for an adult escort? You deserve the gonorrhea you get from that.

I actually usually drop between $50-$100 for all of my creative projects. I was referring to the 200-500 euro/hr I saw on the local availability pages


You know, sometimes I post just for your responses

punkuate wrote:
I pay models, and pay for studios, all it means is that I shoot less often to be able to afford it... either that or I have to do more work, and I'm not a fan of that.

QFT

more work scheduling, more work editing, more preparing for nonpaid noshows, etc etc

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

I actually usually drop between $50-$100 for all of my creative projects. I was referring to the 200-500 euro/hr I saw on the local availability pages

that target range is aimed at, as what you have so properly described - "generous gentlemen" and an occasional "serious hobbyist with disposable income"...

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hello,

I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time.

This leads me to the my point here:

How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.

so I'm still trying to figure out how this concept is intended to work

Now let me do a better comparison:

fact 1) ADULT ESCORTS ADVERTISE TO WEALTHY GENTLEMEN, the typical crowd being investment bankers and the upper tier of earners.

This is the polar opposite of what a photographer can expect to make. These are on opposite extremes of the salary range, even with your successful wedding business.

fact 2) MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS, OR PULLING TOGETHER ALL RESOURCES WILL COST AS MUCH

Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.)

Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition.
----------

So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work?

Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen".

I know someone in NYC who paid $5 for oral sex on 85th/Riverside drive.

I know of one escort who charges $500+/hour.

I don't know how much you think models end up getting paid - the final price, not the asking price, but plenty of people can afford them.

I know of some photographers who've spent deep in to five figures. My guess is that most spend a few thousand per year, like buying season tickets or the cost of a boat payment for a year. Or the cost of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day in NYC.

Photographers who pay model's asking rates may be shooting relatively infrequently.

PashaPhoto wrote:
that target range is aimed at, as what you have so properly described - "generous gentlemen" and an occasional "serious hobbyist with disposable income"...

Ya! I've seen the door price of your workshops! I'll come out some time