Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5620
London, England, United Kingdom
Sita Mae wrote:
Interestingly, every single full time professional photographer with whom I am friends (and there are a lot of them) does collaborative, hobby-style TF* shooting as well to keep their passion alive on the side. Especially of they do something boring for a living (Not all photography is fun lol).
I find a lot of those photographers tend to pay as well because they spend their work days sorting through and editing images, they dont want to be forced to do it all again in their free time to send me a CD.
Photographer
Rick Athearn
Posts: 492
Boulder, Colorado, US
Yeah I make a few bucks shooting architecture. But I shoot figure work just for fun. So I must be a perv and GWC.
Photographer
JSVPhotography
Posts: 4897
Madison, Wisconsin, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. Well stated. Agreed.
Photographer
Pop Life Photography
Posts: 4612
Alexandria, Virginia, US
Why Dangle wrote:
Indeed you are but it's nice to be validated by at least one person other than yourself. I would agree with that.
I think what you say is better defined as whether or not someone has "it", meaning whether they are paid to do so or not, can they take a competent photo. I think that is what this whole thread should come down to. It doesn't matter if you are a pro, GWC (elitist term) or a hobbiest. You should be judged solely on whether or not you can take a great picture.
People in all three categories are capable of doing just that. By that same regard, people in all three categories often times also are incapable of that.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
Sita Mae wrote:
Interestingly, every single full time professional photographer with whom I am friends (and there are a lot of them) does collaborative, hobby-style TF* shooting as well to keep their passion alive on the side. Yes I've noticed that too. I've also noticed that why they stick with it is they understand the difference between the professional side and hobbyist side.
Photographer
Essential Noir
Posts: 243
Sedalia, Missouri, US
There are those that look for intrinsic value. Others look for extrinsic worth. That extrinsic worth may be an income. Sometimes it's just being "internet famous". In either case, it's not really the image that is important, it's the transaction.
Sita, I hope you continue to do what you do for the reasons you do it for a very long time.
Photographer
4C 41 42
Posts: 11093
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Rick Athearn wrote:
Yeah I make a few bucks shooting architecture. But I shoot figure work just for fun. So I must be a perv and GWC. Wear the badge with pride.
Meetings are the third Thursday of every month. Bring beer and porn.
Photographer
slave to the lens
Posts: 9078
Woodland Hills, California, US
How is it possible that someone as talented as Sita Mae is affected by elitist douchebags but a hack like me remains blissfully ignorant?
Photographer
PANHEAD PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 1648
San Francisco, California, US
Simplesoul26 wrote:
PANHEAD PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Hobbiest, Thank god for day jobs, With the advent of digital cameras EVERYONE AND THEIR BROTHER IS A SELF PROCLAIMED PHOTOGRAPHER. Here comes the hate mail I wish people would stop with this sh*t. Really. [/quot
OK let's see if this clears it up it called S A R C A S M if YOU VIEWED Sitas porfolio you would know her images are amazing anyone can push a shutter button what she has is truly a gift, CREATIVITY . VISION . TALENT she got the message :0
Photographer
semyon
Posts: 273
PISCATAWAY, New Jersey, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. Considering USA is the bastion of capitalism, this kind of notion is to be expected. Just ask Karl Marx. However, the probelm is psychosemantical -- 'professional' always associated with serious approach, while it's usual counterparts -- 'hobbyist' and 'amateur' have certain derogatory (or less serious) meaning to it. Words always have some built-in associations and that's nothing you can do about. What you *can* do, is to use the right words to describe what you do. 'Hobbyist' is not the right word if it's more than a hobby to you.
Personally, I describe myself as 'fashion' photographer, because, well, that's what I shoot -- even though it's not my day job. Curiously, somehow being 'fashion' photographer seems to remove and quibbles about being professional or amateur by some reason.
So I guess if you doing it as a passion, not for money, introduce yourself not as hobbyist, but rather by subject of your photography (or, subject of your passion), be it fashion, glamour or fine-art.
Photographer
S
Posts: 21678
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
BigHatPix wrote:
There are those that look for intrinsic value. Others look for extrinsic worth. That extrinsic worth may be an income. Sometimes it's just being "internet famous". In either case, it's not really the image that is important, it's the transaction. Beautifully said!
Photographer
Stephoto Photography
Posts: 20158
Amherst, Massachusetts, US
I'm proud to be a hobbyist, in it for the love of the shot and working with the beautiful form- even if it costs me an arm and a leg. I've resisted going into business, or doing this full time, because then that joy seems to go away and it turns into a job, with little or no creative freedom. Last time i tried that- i laid the camera down for 2 years and had to try hard to pick it up again once i realized i missed it.
Model
Hannah Gabrielle
Posts: 255
Athens, Alabama, US
I catch a lot of flack because modeling is a hobby behind school. I make 4.0's, I study, I read a lot, I write a lot of long papers, and I have to maintain scholarships just to be there. It takes a lot of time and effort.
Photographer
Kollisions Studio
Posts: 1897
Los Angeles, California, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. oh, that's silly. don't get down on stuff like that. you rock!
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. Yeah, it's only a coincidence that I'm a hobbyist & that I suck.
Actually, I figure that if you don't have passion, or if you are in this (or any) business purely to make money, you are limiting yourself. There are many "professionals" who produce product that is designed to make a profit, and that typically means that the product is typical of past money-making projects. If your primary focus is to earn a living, you are just not as likely to take risk, to innovate, etc. Why else would there be so many angel wing pictures?
Just my opinion, but I'm right, and if you disagree with me, you are wrong. So there.
Edit: Nah -- I'm all over the map today. Many professionals have loads of passion, and many can & do innovate. Some don't.
Photographer
Stephen Fletcher
Posts: 7501
Norman, Oklahoma, US
Hannah Gabrielle wrote:
I catch a lot of flack because modeling is a hobby behind school. I make 4.0's, I study, I read a lot, I write a lot of long papers, and I have to maintain scholarships just to be there. It takes a lot of time and effort. You will get no flack from me. Very nice work you have posted.
Photographer
Stephen Fletcher
Posts: 7501
Norman, Oklahoma, US
SPierce Photography wrote:
I'm proud to be a hobbyist, in it for the love of the shot and working with the beautiful form- even if it costs me an arm and a leg. I've resisted going into business, or doing this full time, because then that joy seems to go away and it turns into a job, with little or no creative freedom. Last time i tried that- i laid the camera down for 2 years and had to try hard to pick it up again once i realized i missed it. Yup, been there and done that too.
Photographer
Wolf 189
Posts: 4834
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Stella Dean wrote:
I don't work for money because I wouldn't want to sacrifice the integrity of my art for dollars and cents.
I love your work Sita. And despite not having a computer, or time etc...you've grown soo soo much. You put a lot of "professionals" to shame. So I say piss on their eyebrows and light their shorts on fire. Quality=quality. Money doesn't=quality Where do people find these expressions?...that sounds disgusting and painful in Tarantino style! lol
Photographer
Simplesoul26
Posts: 761
Columbia, Maryland, US
PANHEAD PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
OK let's see if this clears it up it called S A R C A S M if YOU VIEWED Sitas porfolio you would know her images are amazing anyone can push a shutter button what she has is truly a gift, CREATIVITY . VISION . TALENT she got the message :0 I've seen her port a thousand times- she definitely has all of the above. I misread your post and I apologize for missing the sarcasm. I was more or less expressing my general frustration when people say that. 
Photographer
Click Hamilton
Posts: 36555
San Diego, California, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars. [BIG Hug]
Photographer
Stephoto Photography
Posts: 20158
Amherst, Massachusetts, US
Stephen Fletcher wrote:
Yup, been there and done that too. Glad i'm not the only one out there who ran into that
Photographer
Ghosts of Pilgrim State
Posts: 915
Sayville, New York, US
1. Lie. Half of the pro-photographers on here are full of hay any way.
2. Shoot things you hate for half the money you make now. A quarter of the pros are shooting stuff they hate to pay the bills so they can shoot what they want.
3. Starve. The majority of people who do not fit into group one or two don't make enough to pay the bills. I am talking about very talented hungry people.
4. The people who are left. About 3% of the "working pro's" make 97% of the money. They are people like Eastwood, Kevlar Vest and a few others who do not belittle hobbyists, instead the judge each person by their work.
"people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind" Dr. Seiuss
Photographer
AC Photography LLC
Posts: 153
Detroit, Michigan, US
I'm a hobbyist and I know that's ok. I enjoy doing what I do, the guys and girls with me have fun and that's all that really matters. I figure if just one person commented on my pictures and said something even remotely nice that was enough validation for me to continue doing something I love and to learn more about it. I currently have 14 comments and feel ok with what I shoot. Of course I still read, practice, etc to try and better my pictures but only cause I want to be good like almost everyone else here.  Should I never make a dime thats OK, this isn't about money to me. Its more about the experience and the love of it.
Photographer
PANHEAD PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 1648
San Francisco, California, US
Simplesoul26 wrote:
I've seen her port a thousand times- she definitely has all of the above. I misread your post and I apologize for missing the sarcasm. I was more or less expressing my general frustration when people say that. If I a quarter of Sitas' Talent I could die happy
Model
Stella Dean
Posts: 6667
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Wolf 189 wrote:
Where do people find these expressions?...that sounds disgusting and painful in Tarantino style! lol I have a twisted twisted mind....let me know if you'd like to borrow it anytime. 
Model
Ash3
Posts: 5911
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Sita Mae wrote:
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. QFT!
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9726
Brooklyn, New York, US
olympic athletes are some of the best athletes in the world... yet MOST of them are not professional, for one reason or another...
in fact most of them are considered hobbyists, and i'm sure we all remember those annoying home depot commercials where they touted just how many of the us olympians actually hold real everyday jobs there...
not really sure if this analogy extends to photography, but it does have a point... being a hobbyist does not always mean you are inferior in your craft... whatever that craft may be...
Photographer
Rich Davis
Posts: 3136
Gulf Breeze, Florida, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. I am a true amateur. I do not ( I mean DO NOT) shoot for money. I don't want the money to influence where I put my time and effort. I am learning about those that shoot for money by being on MM. I do not feel negatively toward them. Their decisions are based on making money and mine aren't. That doesn't mean one is right or the other wrong. It is interesting to see the different apporaches.
I've been shooting for 15 years and enjoy the hell out of it!
Photographer
Shutterbug5269
Posts: 16084
Herkimer, New York, US
Sita Mae wrote:
I need an MM break, I think. Things that don't matter are starting to irritate me again.
Today's irritation? The assumption that someone (whether model or photographer) who pursues their craft as an enjoyable hobby must suck. That the only good models and photographers are full-time, bank-making professionals. That if you pursue something you love purely for the love of it, you can't possibly be any good at it.
I think it is kind of a sad reflection on the state of our collective mentality that there is such a pervasive feeling that the only worth an activity has must be measured in dollars.
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. Sita,
I know what you mean. As a Hobbyist (and I wear the title with pride) I never could understand the attitude of some people both on and off this site towards doing something as a hobby.
I shoot with minimal equipment by choice and I have other photographers telling me I am not serious about what I do, merely because I don't charge an extravagant amount of money, use the same (or as much) equipment as they do.
I work my ass off during and after every shoot, and fret over certain details that some professional photographers might not. I take my photography very seriously, in spite of what other people think of the type or amount of equipment I use.
Model
Ruthness
Posts: 527
Orange, New Jersey, US
Sita Mae wrote:
Just because someone pursues modeling or photography as a passion, rather than to pay the rent, doesn't mean they aren't serious or dedicated. And it for damn sure doesn't mean they're no good. Sita let me buy you a drink.
Fuck the haters.
Photographer
S
Posts: 21678
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
Ruthness wrote:
Sita let me buy you a drink.
Fuck the haters. In a heartbeat, missy, whenever you get here. Then we'll get you naked and take some pervy GWC unserious photos!
By the way, I haven't addressed everyone's posts here, but I have read them, and I appreciate your thoughts and input.
Photographer
Chanel Rene
Posts: 6780
Huntington Beach, California, US
Sita Mae... You know I lubs you so I don't need to get into how talented you are and how important you are to this community blah blah blah. You know all that. So I'll just get to my point... I want to make a LIVING (and then some), doing what I love. I want to get paid and be popular and put amazing work out there for people to enjoy. I personally will not feel 100% validated until I'm doing just that. (Does that make me any less of an "artist"?) But I wouldn't think for one second that someone who does this just for fun is any less important/talented/artistic/etc than someone making bank. That would be totally foolish. So fuck the naysayers... JUST DO YOU.
Photographer
Ricardo Sevilla
Posts: 4628
Miami, Florida, US
I'm a hobbyist . And I shall remain that way out of choice
Photographer
Imagebuffet
Posts: 15842
Richardson, Texas, US
I describe myself as an avid amateur. I've spent thousands of dollars on camera equipment, models, software, books and magazines, lessons and travel specifically for my photographic pursuits. I try to have a camera always with me. I've traveled hundreds of miles out of my way and used vacation time solely for the purpose of taking photos at a specific location. My co-workers at my night job (who are not photographers) would consider me serious about photography.
I think that some people take themselves too seriously, though. The whole "GWC" thing is one example. Yes, I've seen people who have little demonstrated interest in photography who will grab any camera so they can go look at a naked model. But, I think that the whole idea has cast an unwarranted cloud over the majority of photographers.
Photographer
C h a r l e s D
Posts: 9312
Los Angeles, California, US
Sita. I love you.
Do you want me to kick his ass for you?
Photographer
jstill
Posts: 44
Martinsburg, West Virginia, US
There are many reasons that motivate the creation of a photograph: catharsis, aesthetics, money, fame, libido and more. Equating the quality of work, the craft, to the motivation or profession of its creator is a fallacy. Success or worthiness can only be linked to that motivation.
Photographer
Brooks Ayola
Posts: 9754
Chatsworth, California, US
Sita Mae wrote:
Interestingly, every single full time professional photographer with whom I am friends (and there are a lot of them) does collaborative, hobby-style TF* shooting as well to keep their passion alive on the side. You talking shit about me? :-)
Photographer
Vintagevista
Posts: 11804
Sun City, California, US
To the OP - the only solution is to sit chin deep in Raven's Laughter's pool for the better part of next Sat. Be with happy people, that don't have that much time for hateful conversations. Drink lively - LOL
As a serious note - the ebb and flow of internet boards always will swing from topic to topic and then right back again. I have said this before - but I think it bears repeating.
Almost all people will express themselves in ways to establish their moral legitimacy - This is in essence, value neutral. "I exist - I have valid norms of behavior, Values, and Rituals. They may be different from others - but, they are valid."
BUT then, the general human need for hierarchy rears it's ugly head in mixed company - and the individuals' "I am a morally legitimate and valid person" morphs into "My situation places me above those that ______ ________"
And really, all the attitude of "if you are not making money at this, you are ______ ____" - Is simply a way to cope and feel better by placing their own version of rank onto you. So, in that context, why care what they think?
I'm a hobby shooter - I like taking interesting pictures and making the models that work with me happy. I don't care much how others rank me, as long as the model and I are pleased with the results. Anybody else that likes my images? That's just gravy.
VintageV
Photographer
Shutterbug5269
Posts: 16084
Herkimer, New York, US
Vintagevista wrote:
I'm a hobby shooter - I like taking interesting pictures and making the models that work with me happy. I don't care much how others rank me, as long as the model and I are pleased with the results. Anybody else that likes my images? That's just gravy.
VintageV Precisely my feelings on the matter, nice to know I'm not the ONLY one who thinks so!
Photographer
S
Posts: 21678
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
This was a good thread. Thank you for your thoughts, everyone - and for remaining so surprisingly civil!
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So I'll just get to my point... 
