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Forums > Photography Talk > isn't teen glamour illegal? Search   Reply
1234last
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


I know we've had millions of discussions on what is legal/illegal, appropriate/inappropriate for underage models. I thought I understood this topic pretty well.

My understanding is that if the model is underage and the photos can reasonably be interpreted as sexually suggestive then they could be considered child porn. A position I agree with by the way. And just so we don't get caught in the nudity=porn thing I think there can be nudity without pornography, and there can be pornography without nudity.

With that in mind how can a site like true teen babes not be illegal? I thought they shut it down. I ran across a mention of it in another post so I took a look. It features underage teens in lingerie and glamour poses.

That's not illegal? Am I missing something?
Aug 01 08 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danish delight
Posts: 691
Marina del Rey, California, US


are you sure they are underage...

maybe they are 18 but look younger smile
its the internet... do you believe anything you see
Aug 01 08 01:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.
Aug 01 08 01:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
( ANT ) Mgaphoto
Posts: 4,980
San Diego, California, US


Sara Lund wrote:
are you sure they are underage...

maybe they are 18 but look younger smile
its the internet... do you believe anything you see

exactly

Aug 01 08 01:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
( ANT ) Mgaphoto
Posts: 4,980
San Diego, California, US


David Baxter wrote:
No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.

way off..

Aug 01 08 01:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danish delight
Posts: 691
Marina del Rey, California, US


David Baxter wrote:
No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.

no it cant get one into trouble.

Aug 01 08 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,809
Buena Park, California, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:

way off..

It can in a certain context.  Like if they say they are 14 and you attempt to have sex with them because you believe they are 14 and there is evidence of this.

Personally, I still find that to be bullshit, but it is what it is.

Aug 01 08 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danish delight
Posts: 691
Marina del Rey, California, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:

way off..

right wink

Aug 01 08 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Imagebuffet
Posts: 15,842
Richardson, Texas, US


It depends on local laws. Every state is different. In Texas, where I live, photographs that focus on the genitals (and maybe buttocks, I'm not sure) of minors are considered illegal, though nudity isn't necessarily. I don't know of any law that necessarily outlaws lingerie or glamor poses; they have to follow the same laws whether the subject is nude or clothed. That means that someone who focuses on the crotch of a fully clothed minor could also be prosecuted. There is a videographer here who was arrested last year for his videos taken at a wrestling match, for example, because he was said to have focused on the crotches of minors across the room. I personally expect his case will be dismissed, but that's just a guess on my part. I know of a photographer in Addison who was arrested at a city-sponsored event for "inappropriate photography" in public; the police department later apologized as they set him free.
Aug 01 08 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Black Crow Creations
Posts: 1,217
Concord, North Carolina, US


Ok, I checked out the site to see for myself if I could find any legal statements or ages, etc. The girls featured on the site are under 18. At the bottom of the site you will see a small link about the legal side of the site. It pretty much states that they are under 18, their parents have signed a contract, and that the lawyer for the site/magazine stands behind the legality of it.
Aug 01 08 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danish delight
Posts: 691
Marina del Rey, California, US


Christopher Hartman wrote:

It can in a certain context.  Like if they say they are 14 and you attempt to have sex with them because you believe they are 14 and there is evidence of this.

Personally, I still find that to be bullshit, but it is what it is.

its a waaaay different situation smile

Aug 01 08 01:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:

way off..

Not way off in terms of sexually suggestive pictures using underage models. It can be considered child pornography to use a model of legal age pretending to be underage in pornographic images.

Aug 01 08 01:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photodorset
Posts: 845
Bournemouth, England, United Kingdom


David Baxter wrote:
No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.

If a model looks 15 and is nude it would only be illegal if she said she was 15. Being nude would imply she was over 18 - looking underage might be the only way she can get any money!!!

BTW I'm not into underage or underage looking models!!!

Aug 01 08 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


David Baxter wrote:
No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.

Actually its not illegal as long as the site has a disclaimer describing their "lolitas", as actors portraying to be younger than they are, and also have 2257 record keeping regulation in check, so that if asked they can prove the girls ages.

Premium VPS Hosting

Aug 01 08 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Joe Tomasone
Posts: 5,840
Tampa, Florida, US


In the US, you have two laws to consider - Federal and State.   

Federal law considers depictions of "sexually explicit conduct" to be child pornography.  Mere nudity does not meet the definition, the subject must be engaged in intercourse or masturbation, or the like.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/u … 0_110.html


However, the various States have laws that can vary quite a bit.   Florida, for example, mirrors Federal law in most respects but also considers sexually-oriented contact with the genital area or female breasts of a minor to be child pornography as well. 


So under Federal Law, a minor posing nude (and even suggestively so) is not child pornography, but it might be in your State, and you also might run afoul of charges along the line of corrupting the morals of the minor, etc.    Plus, there's also the Court of Public Opinion to consider - what's legal may not always be what's in your best interests.
Aug 01 08 01:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Yea , state law can cover even something as being "indecency towards a minor".
Aug 01 08 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Joe Tomasone
Posts: 5,840
Tampa, Florida, US


Karl Blessing wrote:

Actually its not illegal as long as the site has a disclaimer describing their "lolitas", as actors portraying to be younger than they are, and also have 2257 record keeping regulation in check, so that if asked they can prove the girls ages.

Under Federal Law, yes.  The "minor" must actually BE a minor for a crime to be committed.   States may vary.

Aug 01 08 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
( ANT ) Mgaphoto
Posts: 4,980
San Diego, California, US


David Baxter wrote:

Not way off in terms of sexually suggestive pictures using underage models. It can be considered child pornography to use a model of legal age pretending to be underage in pornographic images.

dude stop changing this and going back and forth.. you asked about 18+ year old models and whether it was illegal for them to pretend they were younger, I have never heard this was against the law and why would it be against the law? there are a million websites out there with exactly what you are talking about so if it against the law don't you think they would be taken down, charged, sued, etc?

Aug 01 08 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:
dude stop changing this and going back and forth.. you asked about 18+ year old models and whether it was illegal for them to pretend they were younger, I have never heard this was against the law and why would it be against the law? there are a million websites out there with exactly what you are talking about so if it against the law don't you think they would be taken down, charged, sued, etc?

Besides if it were actually illegal, I'd see every photographer on this site who has ever shot a woman in school girl clothing with pigtails being seductive with a teddy bear or lollipop, arrested.

Aug 01 08 01:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
( ANT ) Mgaphoto
Posts: 4,980
San Diego, California, US


Karl Blessing wrote:

Besides if it were actually illegal, I'd see every photographer on this site who has ever shot a woman in school girl clothing with pigtails being seductive with a teddy bear or lollipop, arrested.

lol... yeah it wouldnt be pretty would it

Aug 01 08 01:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:
lol... yeah it wouldnt be pretty would it

Not to mention every attempt to use a concept that teases the term "Jail Bait". tongue We're appalled to have minors in that situation, but we don't get huffy puffy if we got some guys having their fancies tickled by a site catering to underage looking porn actresses.

Aug 01 08 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


( ANT ) Mgaphoto wrote:

dude stop changing this and going back and forth.. you asked about 18+ year old models and whether it was illegal for them to pretend they were younger, I have never heard this was against the law and why would it be against the law? there are a million websites out there with exactly what you are talking about so if it against the law don't you think they would be taken down, charged, sued, etc?

I'm not changing anything, or going back and forth, the above was a reply to another comment.

My original question, paraphrased was "isn't it illegal to portray underage models in glamour style poses wearing lingerie"? I was under the impression that anything remotely sexually suggestive of an underage model could be interpreted as child porn by the courts.

Aug 01 08 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ROY - Fashion
Posts: 382
Dallas, Texas, US


This is going to be interesting.(Gets more coffee)
Aug 01 08 01:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
( ANT ) Mgaphoto
Posts: 4,980
San Diego, California, US


David Baxter wrote:
I'm not changing anything, or going back and forth, the above was a reply to another comment.

My original question, paraphrased was "isn't it illegal to portray underage models in glamour style poses wearing lingerie"? I was under the impression that anything remotely sexually suggestive of an underage model could be interpreted as child porn by the courts.

Then you wrote this "Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought." which is what I said no way too and is an entirely different question than the what you started with.. thus I said stop going back and forth with questions.

Aug 01 08 01:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ivan Aps
Posts: 4,996
Miami, Florida, US


David Baxter wrote:
No, I don't believe everything I read.  Having an 18 year old pretend to be younger can also get you into legal trouble, or so I thought.

Absolutely not.  Sadly, that is the loophole that the porn industry uses.  They take a 18+ model and give her make up and then use digital techniques to make her look less than 18.  The law states that because there is no "actual" minor involved, no law is broken.

As for teens and glamour....., it is more about a suggested sexual act.  Otherwise Victoria Secret would have been in trouble long ago seeing they have hired 17 year old models before.

Aug 01 08 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Apfel Photography wrote:
Absolutely not.  Sadly, that is the loophole that the porn industry uses.  They take a 18+ model and give her make up and then use digital techniques to make her look less than 18.  The law states that because there is no "actual" minor involved, no law is broken.

As for teens and glamour....., it is more about a suggested sexual act.  Otherwise Victoria Secret would have been in trouble long ago seeing they have hired 17 year old models before.

They don't even bother with that, instead they prey on women who grew up with a lower metabolism (ie: those who may have been gymnist and such), as their stunted growth may make them look 14 or 15 at the age of 18. (I doubt they put much money into digitization unless there was a promise of a huge cash return for it).

Aug 01 08 01:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Benjamin
Posts: 544
Fairfield, California, US


How about this kind of stuff you guys

http://www.victoriassecret.com/collecti … rfnbr=4665

for 16-17 year old's?
Aug 01 08 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
paulcoxphotography
Posts: 704
Manchester, England, United Kingdom


If memory serves they did take him to court.  However he won.
Aug 01 08 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


Marc Benjamin wrote:
How about this kind of stuff you guys

http://www.victoriassecret.com/collecti … rfnbr=4665

for 16-17 year old's?

I don't think these images fall into the same category as the site in discussion. The intent here is well known, to sell clothing. And, the presentation is more inline with that.

What is the intent of the other site?

Aug 01 08 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ivan Aps
Posts: 4,996
Miami, Florida, US


Karl Blessing wrote:

They don't even bother with that, instead they prey on women who grew up with a lower metabolism (ie: those who may have been gymnist and such), as their stunted growth may make them look 14 or 15 at the age of 18. (I doubt they put much money into digitization unless there was a promise of a huge cash return for it).

If they can find them.  The only problem is that the 10 hour a day workout and zero body fat regiment is what keeps them looking that way.  90% of the time, the moment they stop dieting and training all day, their natural curves blow out.  I have two friends that became DD within a year after they stopped competing.

Plus, while the bodies might look young, take a close look at most gymnists over 18, their faces really show the age.

Aug 01 08 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Apfel Photography wrote:
Plus, while the bodies might look young, take a close look at most gymnists over 18, their faces really show the age.

true.

Aug 01 08 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ivan Aps
Posts: 4,996
Miami, Florida, US


As for the site in question, regardless of the site owners, the biggest creeps are the mothers and fathers that would agree to let their 13 year old daughter pose for these images to appear on a paysite like that one.
Aug 01 08 01:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Re6ecca
Posts: 69
London, England, United Kingdom


If these girls are the age the site says they are I believe it should be illegal and classed as child porn. It's horrifying seeing girls younger then me posing in thongs like that, I wouldn't even dream of doing so! I've just turned 18 and think it's terrible, how can their parents let them do this?!
Aug 01 08 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Re6ecca  wrote:
If these girls are the age the site says they are I believe it should be illegal and classed as child porn. It's horrifying seeing girls younger then me posing in thongs like that, I wouldn't even dream of doing so! I've just turned 18 and think it's terrible, how can their parents let them do this?!

Where are you seeing this? I just seen the term glamor...

Aug 01 08 01:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ATLFigures
Posts: 430
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


Karl Blessing wrote:

Where are you seeing this? I just seen the term glamor...

You didn't even look at the site you've been commenting on?

Aug 01 08 01:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Re6ecca
Posts: 69
London, England, United Kingdom


Karl Blessing wrote:

Where are you seeing this? I just seen the term glamor...

The photo's show it all.

Aug 01 08 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Pete Harasty
Posts: 1,165
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


isn't teen glamour illegal?

Yes if teens get glamorous they get arrested!
Aug 01 08 01:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Re6ecca  wrote:
The photo's show it all.

What photo, I don't see a photo in the OP.

Aug 01 08 02:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Karl Blessing wrote:
Where are you seeing this? I just seen the term glamor...
David Baxter wrote:
You didn't even look at the site you've been commenting on?

I don't see a link for a site in the OP.

Aug 01 08 02:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Blessing
Posts: 30,853
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Marc Benjamin wrote:
How about this kind of stuff you guys

http://www.victoriassecret.com/collecti … rfnbr=4665

for 16-17 year old's?
David Baxter wrote:
I don't think these images fall into the same category as the site in discussion. The intent here is well known, to sell clothing. And, the presentation is more inline with that.

What is the intent of the other site?

*did you mean that link?*

Marc... you ever opened up to an underwear section for kids in a JC Penny or sears catalog? Kind of the same thing. Not the same as a "Glamour" or seductive shoot, unless you're already a pedophile in which case a sears catalog would be alluring enough.

Aug 01 08 02:05 pm  Link  Quote 
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