Photo Visions wrote:

+1 million

ditto!

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:

A 15 year old cannot consent to having their photos taken.

Of course they can.  What they can't do is sign a release for commercial usage.  Those are two completely different things.  Arranging for a TF* shoot for personal use is not a problem.

Michael DBA Expressions wrote:
And who would be so evil???

Depends on how ghetto the girls are. LOL

Studio36

Robert Lynch wrote:
Of course they can.  What they can't do is sign a release for commercial usage.  Those are two completely different things.  Arranging for a TF* shoot for personal use is not a problem.

they can say "OK"...but it's not legal consent. Only a Parent or Guardian can provide that (such as the sister in this case).

in Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Texas and Wisconsin, a juvenile is age 17 or less

Juveniles have no ability to contract/conduct business in their name. (A TF Shoot is a manner of doing business)

Homes movies and Uncle Bob's photos are completely different than one acting as a business (professional Photographer) with intent to publish.

Rebel Photo wrote:
GUARDIAN:
1  One that guards, watches over, or protects.
2 Law. One who is legally responsible for the care and management of the person or property of an incompetent or a minor.
( A 21 year old Sister is considered the Legal Guardian of her sibling  ) duhhhh...!

No.  The 21 year old sister is NOT her younger sibling's legal guardian and is not legally responsible for her care, nor can she sign anything on her behalf.  The girl's parents are her only legal guardians, absent some situation like their death and guardianship being awarded to the adult sister by a court.

I am constantly amazed at the massive ignorance demonstrated in these threads.

Robert Lynch wrote:
No.  The 21 year old sister is NOT her younger sibling's legal guardian and is not legally responsible for her care, nor can she sign anything on her behalf.  The girl's parents are her only legal guardians, absent some situation like their death and guardianship being awarded to the adult sister by a court.

I am constantly amazed at the massive ignorance demonstrated in these threads.

WTF?. Yeah...you're definitely amazing!

Legal Guardianship (15/21) would be automatic, unless there were circumstances in which the 21 year old was found incompetent of such duties.
A 21 year old sister (acting guardian) is responsible for the actions of her siblings in her presents.

Brian Baybo wrote:
Seriously? No adults, no minors. Plain and simple

No adult? Did you read the OP?  It's her 21 year old sister. 21 is pretty much legal in ALL STATES...  So there would be an adult..

That said, I would probably still contact the parents to make sure THEY are ok with the shoot. But as for an adult being there, you have one; the sister..

Rebel Photo wrote:

Robert Lynch wrote:
Of course they can.  What they can't do is sign a release for commercial usage.  Those are two completely different things.  Arranging for a TF* shoot for personal use is not a problem.

they can say "OK"...but it's not legal consent. Only a Parent or Guardian can provide that (such as the sister in this case).


Juveniles have no ability to contract/conduct business in their name. (A TF Shoot is a manner of doing business)

Homes movies and Uncle Bob's photos are completely different than one acting as a business (professional Photographer) with intent to publish.

There is the crux of the situation (INTENT TO PUBLISH).  A TF shoot is just a practice session unless images are of a sexual nature (nudes, implied nudes, etc).  Just taking pictures of someone underage constitutes nothing in my opinion.

David Gaze wrote:
I wouldn't shoot my neighbor's 15 yr old without the parents there.  Permission or not.  No adult, no shoot...  Period.


No way.

Umm, isn't her sister an adult?

-----

EDIT*

If you're not planning on shooting anything which could be deemed sexually provocative then why would there be anything illegal about it? If it was just going to be you and the 15 year old in a studio then you'd be asking for trouble, but having another adult there should surely be enough reasonable protection as long as you're neither shooting anything dodgy, or planning on assaulting anyone (sexually or otherwise...)!

Vito wrote:
So, her top and bottom is covered (by lingerie/undies), the photos aren't sexual, the model is 17. What lawsuit do you see? What law (criminal or civil) has been broken?

I see it being provactive images of a 17 yr old on a bed. Maybe not nude but with the parents not knowing about it...it could get ugly if they were to find out and I don't want the hassle.

2020 Visions wrote:

I see it being provactive images of a 17 yr old on a bed. Maybe not nude but with the parents not knowing about it...it could get ugly if they were to find out and I don't want the hassle.

Not wanting the hassle is a legitimate reason. Saying it is illegal isn't.

Vito wrote:

Not wanting the hassle is a legitimate reason. Saying it is illegal isn't.

I never said it was legal I said the parents could sue...and they can. Doesn't mean anything will come of it. But dealing with it could cost lots of money and my reputation in my local area. Which in the end costs even more money.

Brian Baybo wrote:

Calling the parents for permission is NOT a resolution. One of them needs to be present. I don't know the the older sibling would represent a "Legal Guardian".

Ahmen!

Get on PAPER and get it LEGAL!!

LA.

Vito wrote:
AND, her 21+ year old sister is acting as her guardian (15 year olds go to R movies with their older siblings all the time).

MPAA ratings are a voluntary system, not something enforced by law.  Escorting a minor to a movie is not the same thing as signing a legal document on their behalf and expecting it to be held up in court.  Absent any other prior legal arrangements, biological parents are the only legal guardians who can act on behalf of a minor.

Raven Shutley wrote:
I'm shooting a 21 yr old model on Wednesday on a completely TF shoot, and she asked if I'd want her sister to model, as well.  I said it depended on her look and her age. {The shoot is a fairy/fantasy shoot, so nothing inappropriate.} She has a good look, but I've found out that she's 15.  Since her parents won't be there to give consent or anything, should I just skip the 15 yr old this time?

Do you have to have parents there?  I know it's a good idea.  Does she have to sign anything if the rest of us aren't?

Business practices (& the comfortablely of said practices) vary from person to person. Other peoples comfort levels & what they would do should have no bearing on what YOU do.

If you feel comfortable w/ the situation, go for it. If you don't, then don't.

Brian Baybo wrote:
Anal? How do you figure? Most states do not allow photography of minors without the parents or legal guardian present, TF or commercial. Check your local laws before you cry "anal". "Professional" comes to mind.

Can you please cite such a law?

Photographing a minor is not inhereantly legal. Not the wisest especially if its not your kid & you don't have the parents permission (more so because of pedophilia concerns...& everyone trips out about having a minor photographed regardless of content) but not in itself illegal especially if its in public where there's no expectation of privacy.

Brian Baybo wrote:
I believe it's called ethics and professionalism and all your "points"  have nothing to do with this subject. Besides, you're in Canada. Not the US

Again, please cite such ethical arguements for the educational benefit of us all.

Raven Shutley wrote:
I'm shooting a 21 yr old model on Wednesday on a completely TF shoot, and she asked if I'd want her sister to model, as well.  I said it depended on her look and her age. {The shoot is a fairy/fantasy shoot, so nothing inappropriate.} She has a good look, but I've found out that she's 15.  Since her parents won't be there to give consent or anything, should I just skip the 15 yr old this time?

Do you have to have parents there?  I know it's a good idea.  Does she have to sign anything if the rest of us aren't?

If you are unsure, ask a local lawyer.
Dont ask us here. It's obvious no one knows for sure.

ASK A LAWYER, COVER YOUR ASS!

Ken Pegg wrote:
What a sad, repressed world you people live in. For the past 2 years, this young lady comes round to my house once a month. None of her parents have ever been present during a shoot. In the first instance the arrangement is based on a measure of trust (I've known them for about five years and her father worked for me some years ago), backed up by the belief that if anything ontoward were to happen, their daughter would speak up. We spend about three hours shooting and another hour going through her homework. I cook her an evening meal and then take her home.
Without a doubt the best model I have ever worked with. It would be a sad day if this innocent, but happy arrangement was subjected to a paper trail of contracts and permissions. She will be 12 in December.


Here is one when she was 9 years old

Nice images...  Sadly, you'd probably be called a pedophile in this country.  Paranoia seems to be the cornerstone of America.

Ken Pegg wrote:
What a sad, repressed world you people live in.

Sigh, fortunately I don't live in the US, I live in South Beach. But I can see Florida from my balcony! We do things here in the daily course of business that would get a local magistrate in Georgia to start looking for a rope and a strong tree branch.

Ah well, I'd say more but I have a pot of fava beans on the stove, and I've got to open that bottle of nice chianti before the model gets here.

Location, location, location.

Silence of the Fish
--
John Fisher
900 West Avenue, Suite 633
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
(305) 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com

Keith aka Wolfie wrote:
Sadly, you'd probably be called a pedophile in this country.  Paranoia seems to be the cornerstone of America.

I agree! Having a minor "child" without the parents around = liability!!

For all those who think it's ok...I'm fine with that but how many times have we read headlines about "molesting photographers", teacher, or even ministers?

No thank you! Go ahead if you want to but a nice image is not worth thousands of dollars in legal fees and the possiblity of going to jail especially if your neighbor decides one day he doesn't like the color of your car or you stepped on his cats tail?

Is this a sad state of affairs? Yes, because as a kid we went everywhere alone. People didn't even lock their doors! You can thank the media, lawyers, pissy neighbors and a lot GWCs who just want to see some tit and don't give one crap how old they are.

Al Salerno Photography wrote:
Shooting minors without a parent is just plane dumb.  Why anyone would want to bring that much question to their work is beyond me.  18 or not, if they live under a parents roof, that parent needs to be consulted.  If you are serious about your work as a professional, you need to start acting like one.  If you went to any cheesy second rate photography place at the mall they wouldn't shoot a minor without consent...so why as anything else would you even attempt it unless the photos were for something other than creating a beautiful portrait.  I'm not a parent but if I was I would probably pummel any idiot that tried to photograph my kid without my permission.  Its totally creepy and un-necessary.  There are so many 18+ models out there wiling to pose without all the hassle.  And the idea of not respecting a parents child to me says it all.  Even if the parent could care less...the fact that one wouldn't think it to be proper says mountains on that individuals intent. The bottom line is how respectful you are to other people and to your craft.

Two stories to argue a point:
The other day I met a recent acquaintance's daughter for the first time.  She was amazingly gorgeous and was dressed like a model, high wedge sandals and a low cut top with short shorts....I was so tempted to ask about shooting her...then I found out she was 19.  Still technically legal I immediately dismissed the idea.  Unless it was a paying position or for some other reason that warranted asking...I preferred to move on to less ethical matters...
However next month I will be shooting a high school teenager who happens to be a 3 year beauty pageant winner form VA who will probably become the next miss America (I think).  Her career will dictate that she has a working portfolio and because her mother will be there, I am more than comfortable shooting her knowing that Mom knows exactly why were all there...and is comfortable with her daughter taking the sexy spotlight to gain the advantage on the runway later on in life.

So let's get this straight, you're scared to shoot a person, who in the eyes of the LAW, is an ADULT and can sign a contract because, and this seems to be implied, she lives at home? This is paranoia to a new level.  And you do realize that in many cases, companies that do senior shoots, the parents aren't there.. They don't seem to be too worried.. I shoot little league. Half the time there is no parent there. According to some in this thread, I'm asking for trouble.. Been doing it for over 20 years and NEVER had an issue.

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:

I agree! Having a minor "child" without the parents around = liability!!

For all those who think it's ok...I'm fine with that but how many times have we read headlines about "molesting photographers", teacher, or even ministers?

No thank you! Go ahead if you want to but a nice image is not worth thousands of dollars in legal fees and the possiblity of going to jail especially if your neighbor decides one day he doesn't like the color of your car or you stepped on his cats tail?

Is this a sad state of affairs? Yes, because as a kid we went everywhere alone. People didn't even lock their doors! You can thank the media, lawyers, pissy neighbors and a lot GWCs who just want to see some tit and don't give one crap how old they are.

And while you and I agree quite often, I think what people DON'T understand, the PARENT is NOT going to protect you...  They WILL side with their child. If you're looking for protection, dare I say, take an ESCORT with you... 

I agree that the parent SHOULD be aware of the shoot and for myself, I do require a parent or parent approved guardian at shoots with minors. Not for protection, but for wardrobe issues.. Better for a parent to help with that then me..  But in the case of the OP, there would have been a FAMILY MEMBER present and one who is of LEGAL AGE...

Keith aka Wolfie wrote:

And while you and I agree quite often, I think what people DON'T understand, the PARENT is NOT going to protect you...  They WILL side with their child. If you're looking for protection, dare I say, take an ESCORT with you...

Very good point! It's usually the parent who brings charges, founded or unfounded, against the photographer. And, yes, I always have my wife present photographing kids even with mommy or daddy present. Hell, I even do it with adult models.

I didn't get this far in life by being careless.