Cardillo Photography wrote:
I am probably going to get shot for this.....
I normally do not shoot minors for TF without a parent present but her 21 year old sister should suffice.  If you are worried about somethiong happening later on (getting sued), then make sure you have another person present for your protection. (witness)    OR
Why not just have the younger sister pay you for the shoot....Say just a dollar.  Give her a receipt and a few pictures for her time.  She would then be hiring YOU.

Sounds like something a Politition would do..

Harold Rose wrote:

Did a see a LasVegas  address.. Are you over 18?

I'm in GA.  Don't know where you would have seen a Las Vegas address, sorry for any confusion!

MMDesign wrote:
Call the parents and ask them if they have a problem with it. If not, shoot it. If they do, then don't.

Who was that you said answered the phone???

Har Marshal wrote:

No written permission from parents was involved with any of these school situations.  Just last night I both photographed and videoed my daughter in a drama camp play, as did pretty much every other parent in the theater.  I did not sign any permission for other parents to photograph my daughter nor was I asked to sign anything for theirs.  On July 4 my daughter was a costumed interpretor at the State Capitol and dozens, if not hundreds, of people took her photo - including at least one professional photographer who posted them on her website.

There are really very few instances where there is a legal need to get parental permission in writing to simply photograph a minor.

The OP is about shooting a model test shoot, not a kid in a play in a public forum.

You can twist it any way you feel necessary.  You shoot what you want, I'll do the same. 

Legal or not, ethical or not, I will not shoot a minor without permission from her parent in writting in a modeling scenario of any kind. And never unaccompanied.  Period.

David Gaze wrote:

The OP is about shooting a model test shoot, not a kid in a play in a public forum.

You can twist it any way you feel necessary.  You shoot what you want, I'll do the same. 

Legal or not, ethical or not, I will not shoot a minor without permission from her parent in writting in a modeling scenario of any kind. And never unaccompanied.  Period.

ok...so the OP already stated that he "knows it's a good idea". He inferred "is it legal?"

David Gaze wrote:

The OP is about shooting a model test shoot, not a kid in a play in a public forum.

You can twist it any way you feel necessary.  You shoot what you want, I'll do the same. 

Legal or not, ethical or not, I will not shoot a minor without permission from her parent in writting in a modeling scenario of any kind. And never unaccompanied.  Period.

what exactly is different about a model test shoot taken by you?
if it were my 16 year old daughter shooting film would the answer be the same?
if it were my neighbour's kid shooting with a Nikon D90 would it be the same?
if they rented time in the RA studio in Ottawa and closed the door would it be the same?


everyone is entitled to work how they see fit. I just don't see why anyone should think it mandatory or morally wrong to not comply with their party line

David Gaze wrote:
The OP is about shooting a model test shoot, not a kid in a play in a public forum.

You can twist it any way you feel necessary.  You shoot what you want, I'll do the same. 

Legal or not, ethical or not, I will not shoot a minor without permission from her parent in writting in a modeling scenario of any kind. And never unaccompanied.  Period.

OK.  No one is saying that you have to.  Your choice not to is completely reasonably.  It's the crap from other posters stating that it is completely illegal without the presence of the parents but who can't cite a valid reference that people are having a problem with.

exartica wrote:

OK.  No one is saying that you have to.  Your choice not to is completely reasonably.  It's the crap from other posters stating that it is completely illegal With the presence of the parents but who can't cite a valid reference that people are having a problem with.

I'm not saying it's illegal, but there are certain legalities associated with such a shoot. Laws vary from state to state and country to country and you should be aware of them

David Gaze wrote:
Wal-Mart has stores in every state.  Ask them if a 15 yr old can walk in and get a picture taken without a parent there, or if accompanied by a sister that's 21...  How old do you have to be to walk in a get a picture alone?

(One with a portrait studio)

Even if it they say no it could be from a corporate policy standpoint, just like you, and have nothing to do with the law. 

If such a law exists it should be easy to find.  All anyone has to do is cite just one specific reference, for any state, that applies to the OP's situation and everyone else will shut up.

Harold Rose wrote:

Who was that you said answered the phone???

You're right! Wait, how would I even know they were her parents even if I met them in person? I should probably have DNA testing done on them for proof.

David Gaze wrote:
Wal-Mart has stores in every state.  Ask them if a 15 yr old can walk in and get a picture taken without a parent there, or if accompanied by a sister that's 21...  How old do you have to be to walk in a get a picture alone?

(One with a portrait studio)

Wal-Mart loves Jesus and thinks everything is wrong!

Did you know they don't allow you to print nude photos there.... I did film shoot and I went to develop it there and they told me they couldn't do it and took my film!

Fucking assholes!

Erlinda wrote:
Simple... Send her old sister an email and tell her, her parents need to sign the model release form to allow you to shoot her younger sister. Make sure you leave a blank spot for them to write out their younger daughters name and then then sign the form...

Release form should be something like

I (parents name) give (your name) promotion to shoot my daughter (her name) on (___date) blah blah blah blah

Have her bring it to the shoot

I do recommend you have more then just you and the girls there.. Like an assistant or a make-up artist or something...

Don't be alone with them

Have fun, people shouldn't be freaking you out this much

while I agree that people shouldnt be freaking out this much (just 47.6% less) that e-mail thing is worthless so don't bother.
My cat could sign it and nobody would be the wiser except if the faint odor of MeowMix got picked up by the gas chromatograph at CSI:MM

MMDesign wrote:

Most of you on here have heard of one or two people who got into trouble shooting minors and have decided that no minor should ever be photographed unless it's by their parent or with their parent hovering over the photographer's shoulder. That's ridiculous. I suppose you think it's wrong for their friends to take photos of them as well?

If it's a photograph that is in no way risqué, or could be construed as risqué, then there really is no problem, especially if you talk to the parents beforehand.

It has nothing to do with "professionalism" (wow, how'd that word get used on mm?), it has to do with something as simple as common sense.

I'm surprised at some of the remarks I am seeing advocating shooting minors without a parent present.

I can't tell you guys how many times I have been jumped shooting minors while on my news assignments. In public places during activities with other kids! Ok, it's an easy argument to say that's not the same as a "photo shoot" exactly...  But that's my point, parents these days are very different from when I was growing up. The world is different by far, and it kids are certainly different. In my day I can't recall a single case of anyone I remotely heard of that ever sued anyone for anything. And these days kids are bringing suits. I just think to err on the side of caution is prudent.

Brian Baybo wrote:

I'm not saying it's illegal

Yes, you did.  You said "most states don't allow".  How do you propose that they do that without making it illegal?  Does the state legislature pass a strongly worded suggestion?

j stephen roberts wrote:

I'm surprised at some of the remarks I am seeing advocating shooting minors without a parent present.

I can't tell you guys how many times I have been jumped shooting minors while on my news assignments. In public places during activities with other kids! Ok, it's an easy argument to say that's not the same as a "photo shoot" exactly...  But that's my point, parents these days are very different from when I was growing up. The world is different by far, and it kids are certainly different. In my day I can't recall a single case of anyone I remotely heard of that ever sued anyone for anything. And these days kids are bringing suits. I just think to err on the side of caution is prudent.

You've been JUMPED? What exactly does THAT mean?

You got MUGGED, or someone asked you what you were doing?

FitzMulti - Las Vegas wrote:
I've never seen more paranoid people in my life!

She's NOT trying to do "lurid" pics of the 15 y/o, you guys!
The sister is 21, and I would think if SHE felt safe with her, she's not going to IGNORE her own sister's safety!

Also...how damn hard would it be (unless they live miles and miles apart), for the OP/Photographer to get the parents written permission/release signed/etc beforehand?!?!?!?!



***

OH! And for those of you saying the OP/Photographer might potentially be branded as a "sex offender"...did you even BOTHER to see that the OP/Photographer is FEMALE?

Your last line is riduculous! You think that Females can't be Sex Offenders? Well friend I help put one in prison! One that the community thought was all peaches and cream. Sex offenders lurk in the most seemingly normal of places.
Convicted of First Degree Rape and Sodomy of a 6-year old girl. And it came out later that she'd done it before, suspected with boys as well as girls.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

while I agree that people shouldnt be freaking out this much (just 47.6% less) that e-mail thing is worthless so don't bother.
My cat could sign it and nobody would be the wiser except if the faint odor of MeowMix got picked up by the gas chromatograph at CSI:MM

If that happens he wouldn't be the one blamed for it... as long as he went through all the steps then thats all that matters!

The girls would get in trouble not him

FitzMulti - Las Vegas wrote:
OH! And for those of you saying the OP/Photographer might potentially be branded as a "sex offender"...did you even BOTHER to see that the OP/Photographer is FEMALE?

Seriously?  You think that there are no women sex offenders?

j stephen roberts wrote:

Your last line is riduculous! You think that Females can't be Sex Offenders? Well friend I help put one in prison! One that the community thought was all peaches and cream. Sex offenders lurk in the most seemingly normal of places.

I was simply pointing you that if the female photographer is there..with the 21 Y/O SISTER...it seemed pretty damned UNlikely...and even MORE unlikely BECAUSE it is a female photographer...which, had NOT been mentioned throughout this entire thread...

exartica wrote:
Seriously?  You think that there are no women sex offenders?

Look four post up!

FitzMulti - Las Vegas wrote:
I was simply pointing you that if the female photographer is there..with the 21 Y/O SISTER...it seemed pretty damned UNlikely...and even MORE unlikely BECAUSE it is a female photographer...which, had NOT been mentioned throughout this entire thread...

The person that raped and sodomized this 6-year old girl did it in the family home around other family. It can happen. Oh, and it was her niece.

exartica wrote:

Seriously?  You think that there are no women sex offenders?

I didn't intend to imply that...
As I posted above, I was pointing out that NO mention of her being female, and in the accompaniment of the 21 y/o sister, certainly would be a pretty good indication that the OP wasn't trying to get away with something lurid.

You people are REALLY making a mountain out of a molehill, when ALL that needs to be done is....she, the OP, should go meet up with the parents and get the authorization signed.

Seems pretty simple to me!
;-)

j stephen roberts wrote:

The person that raped and sodomized this 6-year old girl did it in the family home around other family. It can happen. Oh, and it was her niece.

okay . you win.
i'm bored with you trying to just argue for the argument's sake.

Erlinda wrote:

If that happens he wouldn't be the one blamed for it... as long as he went through all the steps then thats all that matters!

The girls would get in trouble not him

you havent been to law school, have you?
the point is there should be no concern.  IF (big IFFFFFFFFF) for some reason there is a concern then I seriously doubt the paper trail you suggest would be sufficient: e-mail to 3rd party to get 'someone' to sign consent like that? nope.

I just thought of a perfect example.  Try going into a tattoo parlor as a minor (as defined by where ever you are for the purposes of getting ink or pierced) and waving a 'consent' form signed by a parent.  measure the laughter in decibels and get back to me

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

you havent been to law school, have you?
the point is there should be no concern.  IF (big IFFFFFFFFF) for some reason there is a concern then I seriously doubt the paper trail you suggest would be sufficient: e-mail to 3rd party to get 'someone' to sign consent like that? nope.

I just thought of a perfect example.  Try going into a tattoo parlor as a minor (as defined by where ever you are for the purposes of getting ink or pierced) and waving a 'consent' form signed by a parent.  measure the laughter in decibels and get back to me

My friend did that for her nipple piercings and they didn't laugh they pierced her damn nipples... Not to mention she forged it...

I guess that Isn't a good story

MMDesign wrote:

You guys are just waaaaaayyyyyyy too anal. Next you'll be telling me that a parent needs to be present for Senior photos if they're under 18.

Yes, unless it's in school supervised by teachers, parents or a legal guardian MUST be present at all times.

A 15 year old cannot consent to having their photos taken.

Shooting a minor can, in this litigous society, be misconstrued and even a slight mistake can cost cost you dearly.

Two sisters, not a chance in hell I'd be in the same room. I may be an untrusting soul but I've seen setups before and it can happen to even the most honest of photographers.

I will not even talk to a minor. Don't forget there are also over zealous cops out there who advance themselves by busting "child molesters" not to mention the bullshit "reality" shows. That and in the past few years photographers have been painted with some pretty black brushes to the general public. Add a minor female and you're really asking for problems.

MMDesign wrote:

You guys are just waaaaaayyyyyyy too anal. Next you'll be telling me that a parent needs to be present for Senior photos if they're under 18.

Agree with this.
  If your doing the shoot with the sister then again with the 15 yr old who the only thing to worry about doing it without a legal release is if she calls in a year wanting you to stop using the photo, and would you really care since you already have it done by someone else who could sign a release? If it turns out a masterpiece in your eyes can always ask the parents to stop in and sign a release later but chances are if it's just a for fun deal no harm done if things go south down the road.

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:

Yes, unless it's in school supervised by teachers, parents or a legal guardian MUST be present at all times.

A 15 year old cannot consent to having their photos taken.

Shooting a minor can, in this litigous society, be misconstrued and even a slight mistake can cost cost you dearly.

Two sisters, not a chance in hell I'd be in the same room. I may be an untrusting soul but I've seen setups before and it can happen to even the most honest of photographers.

I will not even talk to a minor. Don't forget there are also over zealous cops out there who advance themselves by busting "child molesters" not to mention the bullshit "reality" shows. That and in the past few years photographers have been painted with some pretty black brushes to the general public. Add a minor female and you're really asking for problems.

Very wise.

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:
A 15 year old cannot consent to having their photos taken.

sorry buddy, this is completely wrong...

FKVPhotoGraphics wrote:
Don't forget there are also over zealous cops out there who advance themselves by busting "child molesters" not to mention the bullshit "reality" shows.

fuck overzealous cops...they need to fear us (the people), not the other way around...

as long as you people keep cowering around the government, they'll get stronger and stronger...

as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you shouldn't have to worry about the law or TV shows...

Brian Baybo wrote:
Anal? How do you figure? Most states do not allow photography of minors without the parents or legal guardian present, TF or commercial. Check your local laws before you cry "anal". "Professional" comes to mind.

Brian Baybo wrote:
I'm not saying it's illegal, but there are certain legalities associated with such a shoot. Laws vary from state to state and country to country and you should be aware of them

Huh... what?  I'm sooo confused!  Why don't you post some links to a few of those state laws?

TRW Imaging wrote:
Get signed consent from a parent and having the 21 year old counts as a legal escort. It varies by state. Just make sure that all your t's are crossed and i's are dotted.

what's a legal escort?  what's an illegal escort?

I'd love to see these various state laws :0