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Photographer
Joshua Sheldon
Posts: 289
New York, New York, US


Magazine editorial reveals shocking disparity between sizes of models and real women

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 … -size-and/
Jan 12 12 08:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Naomi Jay
Posts: 1,436
New York, New York, US


well maybe they should go after the designers that make smaller samples?
Jan 12 12 08:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Swank Photography
Posts: 18,987
Key West, Florida, US


Naomi Jay wrote:
well maybe they should go after the designers that make smaller samples?

Sadly I would agree here. Everyone needs to jumpon board...ESPECIALLY the designers.

Jan 12 12 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TRC Photography
Posts: 612
East Brunswick, New Jersey, US


From the article:

"...the disparity between models and the real-life women they are purporting to represent."


This very common reference simply PISSES me off. I have taken thousands of photographs of models, and I assure you, each and every one was taken of a very REAL-LIFE WOMAN.
Jan 12 12 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,849
Boston, Massachusetts, US


A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.
Jan 12 12 08:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Nedah Oyin
Posts: 11,826
Chicago, Illinois, US


fashion models areNOT getting skinnier.. regular women are getting fatter.. this article is pretty obviously going for shock value..
Jan 12 12 08:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


“most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.”

There is NO BMI criteria for Anorexia.
It is a clinical diagnosis.

I wish the BMI chart had never been conceived!
At best it is a screening tool.  And in the hands of idiots, any tool is dangerous.

GRRRrrrrr!!!!!!
Jan 12 12 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Naomi Jay
Posts: 1,436
New York, New York, US


Nedah Oyin wrote:
fashion models areNOT getting skinnier.. regular women are getting fatter.. this article is pretty obviously going for shock value..

I agree with this too though.

ANd BMI is BS.

Jan 12 12 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brandon Mack
Posts: 63
Overland Park, Kansas, US


TRC Photography wrote:
From the article:

"...the disparity between models and the real-life women they are purporting to represent."


This very common reference simply PISSES me off. I have taken thousands of photographs of models, and I assure you, each and every one was taken of a very REAL-LIFE WOMAN.

This. It always boggles my mind that the phrase 'real women' is considered an acceptable description.

Jan 12 12 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TRC Photography
Posts: 612
East Brunswick, New Jersey, US


Nice to see this thread start off with intelligent, rational observations:

:

Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards. (and I love that you allowed for 'accept OR change' in your comments)

: Fashion models not getting skinnier, (edited) the rest of the world is getting fatter 

for his observation that anorexia is a clinical diagnosis of a mental condition and has nothing to do with BMI.

Woot! /end of thread.  smile
Jan 12 12 09:11 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


a couple of remarks:

1. this has already been discussed smile (and locked)

2. the only thing that is "shocking" is how random and unjustified those numbers are

3. again with the real women thing? Are fashion models made of plastic or something?
Jan 12 12 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


ShivaKitty wrote:
A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

this isn't coing from fow news though. fox news got it from plus model magazine, a US plus magazine big_smile. not exactly unbiased either...

Jan 12 12 09:15 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,948
New York, New York, US


ShivaKitty wrote:
A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

I dunno, I just submitted for a job looking for overweight men.  A full buy-out would give me enough extra money for another round-the-country trip, this time including Canada.  It would also give me an excuse to take it easy on the dieting for a while.

Jan 12 12 09:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
KariMarie
Posts: 1,796
Denver, Colorado, US


ShivaKitty wrote:
A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

This bears repeating.

Jan 12 12 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Model
-Nicole-
Posts: 19,180
Madison, Wisconsin, US


ShivaKitty wrote:
A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

Truth! Especially D.

Nedah Oyin wrote:
fashion models areNOT getting skinnier.. regular women are getting fatter.. this article is pretty obviously going for shock value..

This too.

Jan 12 12 09:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erik Ballew
Posts: 712
Westminster, Colorado, US


I wish someone would have told me sooner that models are not real women... Cyborgs kinda scare the hell out of me!!
Jan 12 12 09:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


Joshua Sheldon wrote:
Magazine editorial reveals shocking disparity between sizes of models and real women

one of the main problems with articles like this goes to not understanding the root of presentation.  it has nothing to do with skinny or plus, or non-models considered "real" women.  it has everything to do with the imaging intent which is to create emulation. 

it is not just the dress, the bathing suit, the outfit that matters in the mind of the viewer as much as the viewer wishing they could be as stimulating when viewed by others.  to achieve that the root of the imaging is to create desire, hence elevating models to a level beyond just "real" women.

when an article touts revealing "shocking disparity between models and real women" it only goes to a limited understanding of how the essence of modeling is to create an other-worldly impression and not just the display of a common denominator.

Jan 12 12 09:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
lynne g
Posts: 643
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


The idea is people need like people as example, hero, idealization etc. same idea behind black history month or promoting women in science. Both groups, amongst others, in American history, were looked down upon/ subject to prejudice. Promotion and awareness is one way to defeat these close minded attitudes. Being "afraid" to publish shots of a size 14 model certainly screams a prejudice to me, regardless if her size 2 sister is more or less attractive.

If you ever sit in on an anti racism seminar/meeting you may find that definitions rely on who holds a power and minority. Thus following this line of logic even if pp w a BMi of 15 are real pp, the magazine still makes a valid point.
Jan 12 12 10:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


lynne g wrote:
The idea is people need like people as example, hero, idealization etc. same idea behind black history month or promoting women in science. Both groups, amongst others, in American history, were looked down upon/ subject to prejudice. Promotion and awareness is one way to defeat these close minded attitudes. Being "afraid" to publish shots of a size 14 model certainly screams a prejudice to me, regardless if her size 2 sister is more or less attractive.

If you ever sit in on an anti racism seminar/meeting you may find that definitions rely on who holds a power and minority. Thus following this line of logic even if pp w a BMi of 15 are real pp, the magazine still makes a valid point.

Afraid I could not disagree more.
I have heard the following statement made: "Blacks cant be racists because they are in the minority".  Really?

Likewise, our heroes are people we look up to, aspire to be MORE like.  Not people we try to be like.  Superman used to be a hero for many, but they were pretty sure they would never fly or bounce bullets off their eyes.  But his "stand up for what is right" attitude was worthy of emulation.

This "their BMI is too low" crap is exactly that, crap.  I have seen grown women with BMIs under 19 that were nothing but muscle and sinew.  BMI is meaningless without a lot more information and if you have that information, then you dont need to know the BMI.  I have had a pre-teen female come crying to the office because some nurse at school told her she was "fat" based on the BMI chart.  Girl was a dancer and gymnast.  She didnt have an inappropriate ounce of fat on her.  Nurse was a MORON!  (My apologies to all morons offended by including her in your group).

Show me a woman with a low BMI AND the associated medical workup to indicate she is unhealthy and I will be all for helping her achieve a healthier lifestyle.

Show me a BMI and tell me the woman is anorexic based on that and nothing else... and I will not be polite in telling you what a poor grasp you have of the use of the BMI chart.  Much like that school nurse.

My 2 cents, YMMV

Jan 12 12 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


lynne g wrote:
Being "afraid" to publish shots of a size 14 model certainly screams a prejudice to me, regardless if her size 2 sister is more or less attractive.

i would disagree with that pretty strongly.  it has nothing to do with fear but everything to do with the most effective means for enticing the viewer into a call to action.  that is how models are used in the context and scope of major presentation.

many years ago in a galaxy far, far away when i started shooting models it was said to me something i should never forget; successful imaging for both male and female models is directed toward women.  upon viewing the image the thought process should be "i want to be like her, i want my man to be like him."  it's creating the illusion in the mind's eye that determines success.

the only fear that enters the equation is missing the target.

Jan 12 12 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,849
Boston, Massachusetts, US


lynne g wrote:
Being "afraid" to publish shots of a size 14 model certainly screams a prejudice to me, regardless if her size 2 sister is more or less attractive.

Considering how it's gradually becoming more commonplace to see plus-size models in ads, in magazines, and how we have reached a point where certain plus-size models are relatively well known and admired by the mainstream ... I think it's a reach to say that the media is "afraid" of publicizing these women. Perhaps certain media outlets, yes, but definitely not all.

Not long ago, I was leafing through a women's magazine in a waiting room, and there was a plus-size underwear model in an advertisement for a mainstream lingerie product. I was somewhat surprised, because the last time I looked through those types of magazines was when I was a teenager in the 90s and I don't remember ever really seeing fuller-figured women in used in ads back then. In 1997, when I was a teenager, leafing through my mom's magazines, it was all Kate Moss and heroine chic.

Can't recall seeing anything like this 15 years ago:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/0 … 11604.html

Jan 12 12 10:48 am  Link  Quote 
Model
lynne g
Posts: 643
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


291 wrote:

i would disagree with that pretty strongly.  it has nothing to do with fear but everything to do with the most effective means for enticing the viewer into a call to action.  that is how models are used in the context and scope of major presentation.

many years ago in a galaxy far, far away when i started shooting models it was said to me something i should never forget; successful imaging for both male and female models is directed toward women.  upon viewing the image the thought process should be "i want to be like her, i want my man to be like him."  it's creating the illusion in the mind's eye that determines success.

the only fear that enters the equation is missing the target.

from a post industrial elitest standpoint I can see your point. But since there is no constant, and change is inevitable, I don't see what makes this theory concrete. It would reason there is a motivator and the motivator isn't that women want to be skinny, bc if it were women would have always wanted to be skinny. And this ideal has changed over 10, 100, 1000 years.

Jan 12 12 10:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
olegvolk Oleg Volk
Posts: 52
Nashville, Tennessee, US


I full-figured woman can be attractive or unattractive. This one (http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/2944-5/sh … 3_copy.jpg) is curvy and well-padded but very photogenic. Somebody else who's all fat rolls and bad skin would be hard to make attractive, unless we also find the Shar-Pei or the Warthog look cute. Why would anyone want to promote a product with a model whose (bad) looks distract from the message or just feature an aesthetically displeasing face or body? Magazines can complain all they want about it, but the same Fox employs news anchors who are slim and conventionally pretty.
Jan 12 12 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Fifi
Posts: 58,131
Annapolis, Maryland, US


For fucks sake with this shit again... There is an abundance of diet ads and commercials because a large portion of the country is obese... not because of fashion models.

That whole story is soo full of blatant lies and half-truths... it's sad that people actually believe this tripe.
Jan 12 12 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 3,100
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


lynne g wrote:

from a post industrial elitest standpoint I can see your point. But since there is no constant, and change is inevitable, I don't see what makes this theory concrete. It would reason there is a motivator and the motivator isn't that women want to be skinny, bc if it were women would have always wanted to be skinny. And this ideal has changed over 10, 100, 1000 years.

" post industrial elitest standpoint " ?

This, and the rest of it, makes me giggle like a schoolgirl. tee hee

Jan 12 12 02:42 pm  Link  Quote 
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Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,849
Boston, Massachusetts, US


lynne g wrote:
from a post industrial elitest standpoint I can see your point. But since there is no constant, and change is inevitable, I don't see what makes this theory concrete. It would reason there is a motivator and the motivator isn't that women want to be skinny, bc if it were women would have always wanted to be skinny. And this ideal has changed over 10, 100, 1000 years.
Evan Hiltunen wrote:
" post industrial elitest standpoint " ?

This, and the rest of it, makes me giggle like a schoolgirl. tee hee

Yeah, I was wondering what that meant too, considering that "post industrial" refers to the shifting of economies from manufacturing-based labor, to information-based. I figured I wouldn't comment though, because maybe I was missing some key bit of information that my brain wasn't quite ready to process.

Jan 12 12 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Sizeism:
Best way to combat it is to draw as much hate to your opposite size as possible.
Jan 12 12 02:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Evan Hiltunen
Posts: 3,100
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


ShivaKitty wrote:

lynne g wrote:
from a post industrial elitest standpoint I can see your point. But since there is no constant, and change is inevitable, I don't see what makes this theory concrete. It would reason there is a motivator and the motivator isn't that women want to be skinny, bc if it were women would have always wanted to be skinny. And this ideal has changed over 10, 100, 1000 years.

Yeah, I was wondering what that meant too, considering that "post industrial" refers to the shifting of economies from manufacturing-based labor, to information-based. I figured I wouldn't comment though, because maybe I was missing some key bit of information that my brain wasn't quite ready to process.

I've read enough of your posts to know that your brain is working just fine!

The "missing information" is common to "academic speak" where mastery of specific words and phrases is encouraged above, and to the detriment, of content.

But, what the heck do I know? I'm definitely a post industrial elitist.

Jan 12 12 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Room157
Posts: 961
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


This was just on world news with diane sawyer
Jan 12 12 03:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 15,662
New York, New York, US


Nedah Oyin wrote:
fashion models areNOT getting skinnier.. regular women are getting fatter.. this article is pretty obviously going for shock value..

Yes, especially in America.

Americans have no concept on eating regular portions of anything.

... and albeit I have NO qualms about bigger anyone, and celebrate the plus model divisions, it's reverse discrimination.

Yellow journalism anyone?

Jan 12 12 03:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nedah Oyin
Posts: 11,826
Chicago, Illinois, US


Damianne wrote:
Sizeism:
Best way to combat it is to draw as much hate to your opposite size as possible.

damnit, damianne..!! ^^^^^^^^^^^

Jan 12 12 04:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lars R Peterson
Posts: 1,069
Seattle, Washington, US


It doesn't happen to just women...
I mean, I see all these Hanes and Fruit of the Loom ads, and come on! Are they trying to give us 'average' guys a complex? What am I gonna do with all that extra space? Stuff my pants?

This didn't used to be a problem, the statue of David by Michelangelo is not overly well endowed, because he portrays a very realistic image of what a healthy man should look like! But nowadays... thanks to advertisers, all of us guys are lead to believe that you gotta be toting a plantain banana down there or you're "below average"!!  Damn media gives me a complex.
Jan 12 12 04:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
lynne g
Posts: 643
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


I'm confused how you don't get that this applies to specifics. It's the same reason why plump is still in vogue in a lot of 2nd world countries and third work countries... Which aren't "post industrial". If you can't see how society effects social norms and body image, explaining the socio political makeup of America is moot cause, huh
Jan 12 12 04:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Maura Housley
Posts: 539
Frederick, Maryland, US


I don't understand why people make a big deal about retouching. I mean, I do believe it is necessary to understand that these images are being manipulated (to educate yourself if nothing else) but I hate when people down images just because they think they are not "real."
Jan 12 12 04:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Fifi
Posts: 58,131
Annapolis, Maryland, US


Jules NYC wrote:

Yes, especially in America.

Americans have no concept on eating regular portions of anything.

... and albeit I have NO qualms about bigger anyone, and celebrate the plus model divisions, it's reverse discrimination.

Yellow journalism anyone?

Just like there is no such thing as "reverse racism", "reverse discrimination" doesn't exist either. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of who's doing it.

/rant

Jan 12 12 04:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Maura Housley
Posts: 539
Frederick, Maryland, US


The goal of advertising is to make the product look appealing, in whatever time period it is. Women and men will be made to look as what is commonly seen as appealing to make the products more appealing. Bottom line, this will always happen.
Jan 12 12 04:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Fifi
Posts: 58,131
Annapolis, Maryland, US


Lars R Peterson wrote:
It doesn't happen to just women...
I mean, I see all these Hanes and Fruit of the Loom ads, and come on! Are they trying to give us 'average' guys a complex? What am I gonna do with all that extra space? Stuff my pants?

This didn't used to be a problem, the statue of David by Michelangelo is not overly well endowed, because he portrays a very realistic image of what a healthy man should look like! But nowadays... thanks to advertisers, all of us guys are lead to believe that you gotta be toting a plantain banana down there or you're "below average"!!  Damn media gives me a complex.

It's not just advertisers... most women will tell you the same thing, from my experience.

Jan 12 12 04:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,420
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ShivaKitty wrote:
A. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

B. Women who are 5'10 and 120 pounds are "real women," just like everyone else.

C. Women can be 5'10 and 120 pounds, can be perfectly healthy. That's for a medical professional to decide, not random people looking at pictures.

D. Many people feel "butthurt" when they realize they do not fit idealized beauty standards. Instead of either learning to love their bodies, or working to make changes to themselves, they choose to bitch about the people who do fit those standards.

E. I tend to regard everything on the FoxNews site with a high level of cynicism.

+1
(especially A and E)

Jan 12 12 04:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,420
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Rays Fine Art wrote:
I dunno, I just submitted for a job looking for overweight men.  A full buy-out would give me enough extra money for another round-the-country trip, this time including and going to Canada.  It would also give me an excuse to take it easy on the dieting for a while.

Excuse the thread-jack - corrected it for you - Canada's not the 51st state. smile

Jan 12 12 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,067
Alexandria, Virginia, US


That should be corrected to read: "the Disparity between American Women and Models" -    if you walk through the streets of many European cities you will see what I mean pretty quickly.....


I saw a study in a German magazine not long ago about the average dress size of a 30 year old woman by nation -  there were plenty of countries where this is a "4" or less....
Jan 12 12 04:24 pm  Link  Quote 
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