cinema photography wrote:
I must be lucky, because from MM I have had zero model flakes. A few Hair/make up flakes, but never a model.

My detection method is simple. I look at their ports for recent work and check references as needed. Done.

The voice of reason. Thank you.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I often hate "flake threads" because of several reasons...

1)  There is the assumption that when a model flakes, it's the model's fault.  Sometimes, it is the photographer's fault (e.g. poor communication, inappropriate advances, the photographer might have bad references, and so forth).

2)  Photographers often are smug & snarky in their attitudes towards models.

3)  It amazes me that photographers develop elaborate schemes for "detecting flakes", but these schemes are just an exercise in prejudice. 

4)  It also amazes me that photographers work so hard to avoid checking references.

5)  I know that several people disagree with me, but if you agree to work with a flakey model, it's partially your fault. 

6)  Choose to work only with responsible models, and yes, that sometimes means paying them. 

7)  On the other hand, if you want to work with inexperienced "new faces" who are willing to work for TF*, you are taking your chances and will have to accept what happens.

8)  Seems to me that "flake threads" are the most popular.  It also seems to me that coming onto these forums & bashing models hasn't improved people's flake ratio.

When a model or photographer flakes it is ALWAYS their fault because they can and should cancel by calling, texting or email before a shoot.   I will never know if something I say offends someone unless they say so.   If a provided or checked reference is bad then the model and or photographer should in my view still cancel but just not showing up is bullshi^.

I accept multiple shoots a week and I have little time to check up on people nor do I want too because my only concern is my shoot.   What 'Suzy did to Bob' isn't my business and trying to untangle what occurred seems like a waste of time.  Many photographers and models don't have lists of photographers or models to ask about others.   That's why some rely on provide references or they contact credited members.   A listed MUA on my profile and I had some issues over photos.   I suspect she might not say glowing things about me.

Nobody agrees to work with someone who they deem flaky from the start.   That's silly.   We don't know they are flaky usually until they flake on us.   Many here can't afford to pay models as well.   Life and people don't come with guarantees.   I notice the large amount of complaints from photographers but few mention the model who drove hours to a shoot or in my case this week posed nude outside.   They don't talk about the model who shot naked in filthy abandoned factories or farm houses.   They aren't praising that model who shot for hours all for no pay and in uncomfortable poses.   

In the end though we are only responsible for our actions and words.   If you don't want to do a thing call and cancel.   Its the mature and responsible thing to do.   It is immature to blame others for not doing so.   It is equally  so for accepting work paid or not and not letting the person know well before a shoot you've changed your mind.   I accept as a part of shooting models that some will flake, cancel last minute or be pains in the butt before, during or after a shoot.   I'm  thinking for example about the sad case of a Wedding photographer who according to Gary Fong did a wonderful shoot yet is being sued by a client for thousands more then the client paid.   

Most shoots and models will be great.   Some won't be.   That's the cost of doing business for many of us.

RedRum_Collaboration wrote:
Some models (and photographers) won't plan shoots via a telephone conversation. There are many reasons why - to name a couple: getting trapped on the phone with an overly chatty model/photographer and/or wanting a "paper trail" of the shoot and it's planning because they book a lot of gigs and want something to refer back to. This day and age - most people want to text or use e-mail - for various legit reasons. This may be limiting you (especially as we dive deeper into the future) more than helping you "detect flakes."

Just my 2 cents though.

Very true

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Nobody agrees to work with someone who they deem flaky from the start.   That's silly....  Most shoots and models will be great.   Some won't be.   That's the cost of doing business for many of us.

I certainly agree - accepting some one show up, is for many of us the cost of doing business.   For example, I'd rather book potentially flaky models and accept the loss than either not shoot or only hire agency models.

The thing I'd add about deeming models flaky is from my perspective it's not simply a yes/no, they are a flake risk or they are not.  The risk I perceive of them canceling or flaking can be low, high or anywhere in between.  Where I may disagree with you a bit, is sometimes, it may be worth while for me (but maybe not you) to book models, even when I feel there's a reasonable chance they will cancel.

I recently booked three models for later next month and I'd say I'd give each a 2/3 chance of canceling.   That's pretty high, yet I still do it.  The reason is because by booking three of them, hopefully, I'll end up with a shoot.  I prefer dealing with two cancelations and having one shoot, to simply not having any shoots.  That's my situation and my priorities, which most probably does not reflect your situation or your priorities, and that's fine.

What I think is most silly is those who live with one set of circumstances and priorities, assuming everyone else is the same.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When a model or photographer flakes it is ALWAYS their fault

This is an old, oft-repeated argument between Tony & me.  I say that if you hire a pedophile to babysit, it's your fault if your child is abused.  If you hire an unreliable model, you have to take some responsibility if that model disappoints.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
... because they can and should cancel by calling, texting or email before a shoot.

But they don't, and many of the people who complain bitterly about flakes don't seem to learn this ever.  Some models will flake; others are totally reliable & responsible.  Work with the latter.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I accept multiple shoots a week and I have little time to check up on people nor do I want too because my only concern is my shoot.

To be fair, to my knowledge, Tony has never initiated a "flake thread".  If a photographer isn't concerned about whether a model will flake, then he'll just have to accept the risks when he agrees to work with a model with an unknown track record.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
What 'Suzy did to Bob' isn't my business and trying to untangle what occurred seems like a waste of time.

To be clear, I advocate getting to know your local photographic community, and then you can get your references from people you know & trust and who know & trust you.  There is no need to "untangle" anything if you trust the source.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Most shoots and models will be great.   Some won't be.   That's the cost of doing business for many of us.

I can agree to that.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I certainly agree - accepting some one show up, is for many of us the cost of doing business.   For example, I'd rather book potentially flaky models and accept the loss than either not shoot or only hire agency models.

The thing I'd add about deeming models flaky is from my perspective it's not simply a yes/no, they are a flake risk or they are not.  The risk I perceive of them canceling or flaking can be low, high or anywhere in between.  Where I may disagree with you a bit, is sometimes, it may be worth while for me (but maybe not you) to book models, even when I feel there's a reasonable chance they will cancel.

I recently booked three models for later next month and I'd say I'd give each a 2/3 chance of canceling.   That's pretty high, yet I still do it.  The reason is because by booking three of them, hopefully, I'll end up with a shoot.  I prefer dealing with two cancelations and having one shoot, to simply not having any shoots.  That's my situation and my priorities, which most probably does not reflect your situation or your priorities, and that's fine.

What I think is most silly is those who live with one set of circumstances and priorities, assuming everyone else is the same.

I misspoke some.   I should have said that many people won't work with someone they deem flaky from the start.   I've for example had my doubts about models in the past and things have worked out.   Usually, I'm right though.   If you only accept sure things it may really limit you.   A good question might be how does one determine a flake from the beginning.   Just once I'd love to see a profile that read:   I may flake and or cancel with little notice.   I am subject to come extremely late.   I may talk on my cell phone all while we work and I will may need to leave early and my llama herders and I will try and rip you off.   

We all have different situations.   The person I quoted seems to check and recheck models and pays.   I don't and I can't pay most models.   Do I then deserve to be flaked on?   The OP of this thread has mentioned using phone calls as his method of helping to determine flakes.   I agree.   A model can call me from a blocked number.   I don't care.   If she is concerned about clients having a personal number get a cheap pay as you go phone or Google voice.   I have a current casting.   I have asked models reply with a phone number.   Few have nor have they called even when I have provided my number to arrange shoots and this for castings they replied too.

I wonder if they'll flake on a shoot.   I won't know because they've flaked on calling.

Lexxy Nichelle wrote:
Please tell me I'm not the only model that avoids giving out her number until a shoot is serious and definite. I have had so many photographers, who I've allowed to have my number after beginning to set up a shoot, constantly call me daily about shoots and what we are shooting and where and what photos and about me. I understand this process but I also have a life, and I can't be answering calls at 10:30 at night, or 7am when I'm working.

And it's gotten bad, and a lot of these photographers have tried to get onto a personal level with me also, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I can see why it would be considered unprofessional but my phone number is only provided if the shoot is definite.

I need to clarify: I initially set the date and time for the shoot via the MM email system. The phone call is partly to see if she can follow insturctions, test her sincerity and I also like to go over driving directions on the phone.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I don't and I can't pay most models.   Do I then deserve to be flaked on?

In my opinion no. 

Canceling or flaking is the fault of the person who cancels or flakes, not the fault of the person who was flaked on or canceled on.  Sure it makes sense to do what is reasonable to try to identify who is likely to flake and do what one reasonably can to reduce flakes, but that's not the same as fault.

Also to say it's only about identifying who's likely to flake is over simplifying the issue.  You make it clear you know pay can be an influence on reliability, but if one doesn't have unlimited funds, that's not necessarily a viable solution.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When a model or photographer flakes it is ALWAYS their fault

This is an old, oft-repeated argument between Tony

BlueMoonPics wrote:
I use my divining rod to detect flakes.    Oops, that came out wrong.

BlueMoonPics wrote:
I use my divining rod to detect flakes.    Oops, that came out wrong.

Tee Hee and HA!

Thank you for the laugh so early.

Misty R H wrote:
I am curious as to if the age of the model has anything to do with the amount of "flakeyness'?  I am a mature model and have never flaked on a shoot.  I respect another person's time and don't "no show" for anything out of respect.   Schedules do change, but I always give sufficient notice if I am not a able to make a shoot.
...

Hi,
The age of the photographer flake doesn't seem relevant though, so not sure why the inverse of model age would be.

Jen

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I can't control what anyone does.  ...  The responsibility always (?) lies with the person who is doing wrong and not their victims.    If I choose not to have bars on my home and its broken into its that fool who is to blame and not I.   If my home is burgled again in the same way I should have taken precautions but its still not my fault.

Blaming the other guy is little consolation if your home is broken into multiple times.

I am also willing to bet that your front door is locked, and I'm also willing to bet your car (wherever it is parked) is also locked.  I'd even give you odds about whether your car has a car alarm system and/or lo-jack.  I am also willing to bet that you have insurance for your car & your stuff.  Why is this so?  Because you are taking precautions against bad things happening to you & yours.  This is especially true since you are unlikely to be able to hold the "bad guy" for the damages you suffer.

If flakes bother you, take precautions.  If you don't want to take precautions, STFU if a model flakes on you.  If models flake on you often, that's the universe telling you that you might want to consider precautions.

Venessa M Baez wrote:

What's a payphone?

Kidding.

Yes - a payphone.  They still have them around.  I just saw one in a cafeteria the other day. 

If you don't have the ability to find a payphone, surely one of your friends has a cell phone you can borrow to make a call.

KCLynne wrote:
Problem is - this covers about 90% or more of the models I contact.  And I certainly won't hire for $$ a model who gives any signs of potential flaking.  I do not want to be left on a shoot with a client expecting some model to show up only to either hear nothing or get the usual "my grandmother died" excuse.

Unfortunately I had to reschedule a shoot because of this exact reason....sometimes our grandparents have actually died.  I also notified the photographer immediately (5 days prior to the shoot) and we rescheduled a month later and everything worked well.

My grandmother died when she was 104 years old.  I had aunts and uncles pass away sometimes within months of each other.  And I never didn't show up for work one day and leave someone hanging with no word. 

One model here in NC tells every photographer that she can't show up because her grandmother died.  This came back to bite her on the ass at a photographer-model meet-up when a bunch of photographers were sitting together over beers and telling war (flake) stories.  We agreed that the "grandmother dying" story was the #1 excuse a model gives, followed by "I wrecked my car and my cell phone was broken in the accident" at #2, and then "I had to bail my loser BF out of jail - and left my phone at home" at #3.

We figured out that one model in particular must have come from a very broken home, with her parents getting divorced and re-married many times to have so many grandmothers (step and otherwise) dying on them.  One model who used the grandmother story had also claimed to have been in an accident one day and was shooting for another photographer the next with no sign of any physical injury. 

We figured that the only people who really put up with this crap were GWCs.  I only shoot with models who have references and pass my flake tests.  And I only hire models who have either shot with other photographers and haven't flaked on them, or have passed my own personal flake tests.

B R E N N A N wrote:

Bullshit.

Not sure why you are calling "bullshit" - these have been my experiences and that's how I can tell whether or not someone will flake on me.  That's also another reason why I won't work with those "gypsy" models who fly or drive into town and want to work with me.

First off - why would I want to hire one of them to shoot on THEIR schedule and not mine?  What if I book them and they have a car problem and otherwise don't show up on time? 

I had two models want to shoot with me when they were going to come to town in mid January.  Sent MM messages back and forth with them.  Finally one sent me her phone number - but she never answered her phone nor did she call back.

B R E N N A N wrote:

Yeppers!

When I shoot commercially or when any money changes hands, I always get a basic contract in writing.  But I first talk on the phone with my client to flesh out the idea.  In some cases, it takes a couple of phone calls and e-mails before a contract is sent over for signature. 

I had one potential client contact me via e-mail and told me he wanted me to bid on a job with only a very basic description of the job in his e-mail.  He told me he wanted me to quote a final rate based on a two-paragraph e-mail.  I told him I had some other questions for him and would like to talk on the phone.  Never heard back - seems like some folks under a certain age only want to text or email - they are allergic or afraid of phone calls!

Jessie Shannon wrote:

So being a Stripper or a Waitress is auto flake?? Wtf  Because everyone is the same right?

Pfffffffffffffffffft!

No - being a waitress in a strip club is almost like being a stripper when it comes to flaking.  They have some of the same "defense" mechanisms when it comes to dealing with being hit on in a club by patrons. 

I never ask a girl in a club to pose for me.  I usually find out that girls are strippers or work in a strip club when I talk with them on the phone or via e-mail or I see it in their work.  When it's obvious from their work, I don't contact them. 

When they mention it in their MM messages, e-mails, phone calls, or even in-person interviews, it means more likely than not at some time in the future they will flake.  Like someone who sets an appointment and then constantly calls and ends up being HOURS late?

ChiMo wrote:
And there is of course this:

http://blog.patyuen.com/lessons/photogr … flowchart/

Fantastic!  I would tweak that a bit based on some of my own experiences, but I tend to agree!

Misty R H wrote:
I am curious as to if the age of the model has anything to do with the amount of "flakeyness'?  I am a mature model and have never flaked on a shoot.  I respect another person's time and don't "no show" for anything out of respect.   Schedules do change, but I always give sufficient notice if I am not a able to make a shoot.

Could the phone call/text thing be a generational thing?  My generation did things by phone and most of the photographers I have worked with have been my age or older and they prefer phone calls to texts.  So perhaps photographers/models in my age range prefer phone calls and those younger prefer texts as the method of communication.  I think it is best to set up the preferred method of communication when setting up a shoot.

I think you are correct on both accounts.  Age and generational issues.  I find that some paying clients of a younger generation are way too addicted to text and e-mail.  Some want to do all their business via TM and e-mail - they don't even want to talk about a concept over the phone.

NC Art Photos wrote:

Not sure why you are calling "bullshit" - these have been my experiences and that's how I can tell whether or not someone will flake on me.  That's also another reason why I won't work with those "gypsy" models who fly or drive into town and want to work with me.

First off - why would I want to hire one of them to shoot on THEIR schedule and not mine?  What if I book them and they have a car problem and otherwise don't show up on time? 

I had two models want to shoot with me when they were going to come to town in mid January.  Sent MM messages back and forth with them.  Finally one sent me her phone number - but she never answered her phone nor did she call back.

Because "gypsy models", as you so  negatively referred to them, don't eat if they don't show up. There are certain expenses associating with traveling, and if a traveling model flakes, not only will she not make money, she will be out the money she spent getting there. Traveling models are among the most reliable there are; I speak for myself and several other full time traveling model friends.

Don't like their schedule? The probably have a more open schedule, since, unlike your local models who have full time jobs, school, or other responsibilities, it's their full time job, and their schedules are more flexible.

What's to stop a local model from having car trouble? That's one of the silliest debates I've ever heard. I had car trouble in Michigan last year- actually, my car totally died on me- and I had to run to get a rental car, so I could make all my shoots (which I totally did). I've known full timers who have had their car died, and they walked to their shoots, hauling all their gear. Name me a local hobbyist that would do that (and since we're in the same geographic location, I can answer that, and it would be a big ol fat zero).

On a related note, I distinctly recall spending over an hour on the phone with you, discussing the same things that had already been discussed online, getting nothing accomplished. That is a prime reason why I refuse to book anything, ever, over the phone.

Want complete reliability? Book through an agency. Though I dare you to ask a booker if you can speak to one of the girls beforehand, since that's the only way you'll book a shoot.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Blaming the other guy is little consolation if your home is broken into multiple times.

I am also willing to bet that your front door is locked, and I'm also willing to bet your car (wherever it is parked) is also locked.  I'd even give you odds about whether your car has a car alarm system and/or lo-jack.  I am also willing to bet that you have insurance for your car & your stuff.  Why is this so?  Because you are taking precautions against bad things happening to you & yours.  This is especially true since you are unlikely to be able to hold the "bad guy" for the damages you suffer.

If flakes bother you, take precautions.  If you don't want to take precautions, STFU if a model flakes on you.  If models flake on you often, that's the universe telling you that you might want to consider precautions.

Any precautions I may or may not take do not excuse the theft of my things.   Should I take some?   It may be wise to do so but lets say I left my car unlocked while doing a quick errand and someone steals my wallet.   The person who took advantage of that situation is the criminal and at fault.   So what precautions can a photographer use  to help insure models aren't flakes?   the OP has offered his ideals and I agree.   Phone calls are in my view a excellent way to gauge a models seriousness.   Its not 100% as a few models in this thread have pointed out that they like to conduct business via emails.   Your methods of checking references and paying work for you.

However if you didn't check references or pay or get a call would a models flaking be your fault.   After all you chose to work with a unreliable person, right.   Wrong!   If a model decides for any reason she can't come.   I don't need to hear about her granny, sick puppy or broke down car because I don't care.   Simply let me know you aren't coming.   As far as STFU about it when they do.   I don't complain because I understand I can't control what other people do.   I can't make anyone responsible.   I mostly run my big as% mouth when you tell photographers its their fault when models flake.

Clear Light Studio wrote:
My flake detection method has a 90 percent success rate.

I ask the model to book her shoot by makingt a phone call to do so.
The models who fail to do it within the time I ask them to have a 90 percent chance of being a flake. It appears that making a phone call is too much of a challenge for some people. I have learned not to expect anything from a model who can't follow my simple instructions. Flakes are models who cancel at the last minute with some lame excuse like their grandmother is sick. Then there is the classic "no-show."

In contrast to this, women who are from the general public and not "models" always follow my instructions and so far have never flaked out on me. I get 100 percent success.

If you have a flake detection method, I'd like to hear about it.

I've just booked a model entirely by text. This will be interesting.

The younger generation love their texting.

I see some more experienced MM models usually ask me to give them a call, so perhaps your theory is correct, it's a useful screening process.

Rollo David Snook wrote:

I've just booked a model entirely by text. This will be interesting.

The younger generation love their texting.

I've booked several very successful shoots through facebook chat

B R E N N A N wrote:
I've booked several very successful shoots through facebook chat

I'm not sure, I think I may have done that also. 

DougBPhoto wrote:

I'm not sure, I think I may have done that also. 

Then you must be a flake! *points finger*



I kid, I kid....

B R E N N A N wrote:

I've booked several very successful shoots through facebook chat

We're so doing this.   

I've booked models via text and facebook chat a number of times.  100% success rate.  How?????

BECAUSE I BOOKED RELIABLE MODELS. 


Seriously, we know who the good ones are.  So who's really to blame here?   Reliability first, then "the right look" second.  Being the perfect fit for your project doesn't matter if you're not certain she'll show.

J Henry wrote:

We're so doing this.   

I've booked models via text and facebook chat a number of times.  100% success rate.  How?????

BECAUSE I BOOKED RELIABLE MODELS.


Seriously, we know who the good ones are.  So who's really to blame here?   Reliability first, then "the right look" second.  Being the perfect fit for your project doesn't matter if you're not certain she'll show.

Dine ding ding! Though I can't believe you would lower yourself to shoot with one of those so called "gypsy" models. Ugh. *scoff*

I'll probably be back that way in October! *hops on facebook chat*

B R E N N A N wrote:

Dine ding ding! Though I can't believe you would lower yourself to shoot with one of those so called "gypsy" models. Ugh. *scoff*

I'll probably be back that way in October! *hops on facebook chat*

The gypsies show up: 
*  more financial incentive
*  less distraction from their outside life
*  organized schedule makes it easier book.  Especially months in advance

I admit some folks seem to go the gypsy route before they're ready.  But again, we all know who the die-hards are.  It's not that difficult or risky.

T-D-L wrote:
The best detection method for a flake to me is just punctuality when responding to messages.  If a model and I are discussing shooting and it takes more than a day to get a response or it's consistently slow then chances are it's going to fall through last minute.  It's 2012...everyone is attached to phones with web access, tablets, laptops, desktops, etc.  I don't believe anyone has a life that is soooo busy and hectic that they can't take 60 seconds out of their day to respond to a msg.  If by some chance you are one of those people then that too is also a sign that you've got too much going on and the shoot probably won't work out.

Yup.
This is one method I have used to determine that
"model" with MM profile+San Diego= 95% flake meter hits red line.

Clear Light Studio wrote:
My flake detection method has a 90 percent success rate.

I ask the model to book her shoot by makingt a phone call to do so.
The models who fail to do it within the time I ask them to have a 90 percent chance of being a flake. It appears that making a phone call is too much of a challenge for some people. I have learned not to expect anything from a model who can't follow my simple instructions. Flakes are models who cancel at the last minute with some lame excuse like their grandmother is sick. Then there is the classic "no-show."

In contrast to this, women who are from the general public and not "models" always follow my instructions and so far have never flaked out on me. I get 100 percent success.

If you have a flake detection method, I'd like to hear about it.

Mine is 100% effective. If they don't show up I've detected a flake. Granted it's after the shoot was scheduled but there wasn't a time constraint as to when I could make that detection.

B R E N N A N wrote:

Because "gypsy models", as you so  negatively referred to them, don't eat if they don't show up. There are certain expenses associating with traveling, and if a traveling model flakes, not only will she not make money, she will be out the money she spent getting there. Traveling models are among the most reliable there are; I speak for myself and several other full time traveling model friends.

Don't like their schedule? The probably have a more open schedule, since, unlike your local models who have full time jobs, school, or other responsibilities, it's their full time job, and their schedules are more flexible.

What's to stop a local model from having car trouble? That's one of the silliest debates I've ever heard. I had car trouble in Michigan last year- actually, my car totally died on me- and I had to run to get a rental car, so I could make all my shoots (which I totally did). I've known full timers who have had their car died, and they walked to their shoots, hauling all their gear. Name me a local hobbyist that would do that (and since we're in the same geographic location, I can answer that, and it would be a big ol fat zero).

On a related note, I distinctly recall spending over an hour on the phone with you, discussing the same things that had already been discussed online, getting nothing accomplished. That is a prime reason why I refuse to book anything, ever, over the phone.

Want complete reliability? Book through an agency. Though I dare you to ask a booker if you can speak to one of the girls beforehand, since that's the only way you'll book a shoot.

My one on one shoots are with traveling models. for the very reason Brennan states. They need to eat, travel and maybe get lodging if they aren't being hosted. They follow up with me and ask me what wardrobe I'm looking for. I've never had a model flake.

Why should you book around her schedule? You both are syncing your schedules. If a model is in my area for a week, I will have known she was coming well before then. If a photographer has an issue with that he needs to develop some flexibility.