Image K wrote:
Some would consider this a "dream-killing" response...but it's a sensible/truthful one.

I'm not trying to be a dream killer. The OP asked how to become a VS model and the answer was provided to her in the first response. Regardless of what any of us may feel regarding her other options e.g. fit modelling or looking at other brands is irrelevant if what she wants to do above all else is model in some way for VS.

If she can get fit modelling work that's great.

If she's able to prove everyone in this thread wrong by being an exception to the standards set that's stellar.

I would just hate for anyone to ignore the information they asked for when it was provided to them and to pursue something that may be fruitless when they could look into other options that may better serve them.

Oh and I'll take being called sensible any day

Tiffany_B wrote:
Do you know loads of girls in the U.S. who do it? Also if there are already loads of girls doing it, wouldn't it mean that it may be a bit harder for someone as new as the OP to actually break into it? I fully admit that I don't know models who do it full time or for major brands but I have seen castings for this type of work and generally they offer a few weeks here, or a month there and before the OP even applies to do this for an internationally recognized company she may want to do some work for smaller brands to get an idea of what it's like.

Also you have to be willing to concede that if you don't fit with the overall vision the company wants to project to the public that you'll never actually book any catalog work.

Additionally, you fail to address that not everyone has the ability to pick up an move. Do you know how expensive even a studio apartment is in a semi-decent neighborhood in NYC is? Let me give you a hint, it's expensive enough to make the thought of moving prohibitive even if you have a few jobs booked.

I'm all for encouraging someone, but I also believe in presenting them with information that lets them know how difficult something may potentially be. You have had a good experience with this, it doesn't automatically mean that the OP will.

Look. I know you have no clue how fitting modelling works but I'd have thought you'd understand how the rest of it does.
It isn't up to the company who they use to shoot campaigns. The ad company get paid to take that resposnibility and they sail or sink on that.
Catalogue work they use agancy models for much of it; usually the same models that get used for wesbite etc. BUT they will always forget something. So they are NOT going to get in a £5k a day agency girl to shoot those extra pics. And we look good in the stuff. So we are going to do the odd shot; and we are certainly going to do showroom and if we are lucky the odd bit of runway.

Yes I know how expensive NY is - try coming to London sometime.

Could you move to NYC on the promise of work for an Agency? For all but the top girls; no.
Could you move if you secured a fitting modelling job. Yes; you could. They need that continuity for at least two seasons generally. Indeed; I know fit models that have been in the same position for many years. Again I am not going through all this again because I did it in another thread. I showed you half a dozen fit models for companies like Vivienne Westwood that also have portfolios here. Because yes after a collection is complete you may have a couple of weeks all bar a day or two off; so getting other work is also a good idea. But generally a fit job there is no more secure position in the modelling world.

As it happens; I was already in London and jobless doing a PhD with bills to pay and making a living without that fit position within a month of trying it. A smile, a bit of common sense and giving and getting business cards and it happens. Once I got that regula fit job it gave me security; but I'd have been okay without it. Because there is plenty of all kinds of modelling work inclduing a bit of other fit.

Could I do it here in Swansea? No way. I get a bit; but it is FAR easier to pay very high rents in London when there is loads of modelling work than pay peanuts rents when work is very thin on the ground.

THAT is the reality. You DO have to move to where the work is if you want to be a model; and without doing that you have no chance. If you secure a job as a fit model before you go there is NO better security in modelling. You are put on the payroll. Agencies don't give you that.

BUt Briana is also WORKING already for VS. So if she approaches it right after working for them and asks if there are any jobs at head office; whether it be store room or shop or fit model she may already be able to move to HQ in NY or wherever with some form of job security and enjoying success at some level if she works hard; she's already loyal.

Fuck I'd have given my back teeth when I was completely jobless to get a storeroom job at AP. I would have been happy just working for them in any capacity. I think Briana is already pleased to be working for VS too.

Image K wrote:

Why "should" there be?

So that people can buy things from them...?

Eliza C wrote:
Look. I know you have no clue how fitting modelling works but I'd have thought you'd understand how the rest of it does.
It isn't up to the company who they use to shoot campaigns. The ad company get paid to take that resposnibility and they sail or sink on that.
Catalogue work they use agancy models for much of it; usually the same models that get used for wesbite etc. BUT they will always forget something. So they are NOT going to get in a £5k a day agency girl to shoot those extra pics. And we look good in the stuff. So we are going to do the odd shot; and we are certainly going to do showroom and if we are lucky the odd bit of runway.

Yes I know how expensive NY is - try coming to London sometime.

Could you move to NYC on the promise of work for an Agency? For all but the top girls; no.
Could you move if you secured a fitting modelling job. Yes; you could. They need that continuity for at least two seasons generally. Indeed; I know fit models that have been in the same position for many years. Again I am not going through all this again because I did it in another thread. I showed you half a dozen fit models for companies like Vivienne Westwood that also have portfolios here. Because yes after a collection is complete you may have a couple of weeks all bar a day or two off; so getting other work is also a good idea. But generally a fit job there is no more secure position in the modelling world.

As it happens; I was already in London and jobless doing a PhD with bills to pay and making a living without that fit position within a month of trying it. A smile, a bit of common sense and giving and getting business cards and it happens. Once I got that regula fit job it gave me security; but I'd have been okay without it. Because there is plenty of all kinds of modelling work inclduing a bit of other fit.

Could I do it here in Swansea? No way. I get a bit; but it is FAR easier to pay very high rents in London when there is loads of modelling work than pay peanuts rents when work is very thin on the ground.

THAT is the reality. You DO have to move to where the work is if you want to be a model; and without doing that you have no chance. If you secure a job as a fit model before you go there is NO better security in modelling. You are put on the payroll. Agencies don't give you that.

BUt Briana is also WORKING already for VS. So if she approaches it right after working for them and asks if there are any jobs at head office; whether it be store room or shop or fit model she may already be able to move to HQ in NY or wherever with some form of job security and enjoying success at some level if she works hard; she's already loyal.

Fuck I'd have given my back teeth when I was completely jobless to get a storeroom job at AP. I would have been happy just working for them in any capacity. I think Briana is already pleased to be working for VS too.

You clearly know everything and the rest of us are obviously lucky just to be able to read so that we can bask in your knowledge.

I refuse to engage in continued discourse with you where rather than addressing legitimate concerns and questions e.g. the number of models you personally know in the U.S. who have lucrative careers as fit models you continue to push your agenda.

I've sincerely wished the OP luck in attaining her goals both original and amended once before and I'll do it once again also advising her to be pragmatic as well.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

So that people can buy things from them...?

If someone saw earning potential there, they would.

Eliza C wrote:
BUt Briana is also WORKING already for VS. So if she approaches it right after working for them and asks if there are any jobs at head office; whether it be store room or shop or fit model she may already be able to move to HQ in NY or wherever with some form of job security and enjoying success at some level if she works hard; she's already loyal.

Again...this has nothing to do with the OP...since she expressed no ambition other than to be a VS model. That is what she asked about.

Not anyone in Europe. Not anyone else.

Just VS.

Eliza C wrote:
Fuck I'd have given my back teeth when I was completely jobless to get a storeroom job at AP. I would have been happy just working for them in any capacity. I think Briana is already pleased to be working for VS too.

She may be...but even she admitted in her OP that her current employment with them has no bearing on her potential as a VS model.

Briana Shauntre wrote:
My ultimate goal in life is to be a Victoria Secret model, I want it more than anything. I recently got hired at Victoria Secret also (not like that helps anything, just saying). Does anyone know how I can achieve this goal? I'll take all steps necessary.

Briana, regardless of whether or not you fit the criteria for VS, you look absolutely amazing in swimwear.

There are a lot of things we cannot do, but there also a lot of things we can.

Take your modeling as far as you can.  Whether you hit your goals or not, don't let that bother you.  One day, when you are much, much older, you will be able to look through all of the great images you took when you were younger.

It will be a "win" no matter what.

David Shinobi  wrote:
Requirements to be a Victoria's Secret model.


Height: 5'7.5" to 5'9"
Bust: 35"
Natural Waist: 28"
Low hip (8" down): 38"
Body type: toned or firm



Do I need to say more?

Where do you get this information from? LOL

Candice Swanepoel - 5'9" 33-23-34.5
Rossie Huntington - 5'9" 32-24-34
Lily Aldridge - 5'8.5" 31-23-33
Adriana Lima - 5'10" 34-24-35
Alessandra Ambrosio - 5'10" 34-23-34

All measurements above are directly from the Agency sites... IMG, Marilyn, DNA etc.

These Models do not have 38" hip measurements nor do they average 35" busts

Michael Bots wrote:
I would suggest looking at the career of Jessica Stam. She has walked in the VS "big show", wings and all, but that is certainly not all she has done. You can't make a living doing a couple of weeks promo for one company, and you won't get those few weeks without a history of doing the other work.

http://models.com/people/Jessica-Stam
http://www.style.com/peopleparties/mode … person956/


As for AP -- The Daily Mail writes up their latest.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic … ie-ad.html

I'm curious why you mentioned Jessica.   She's a agency model and listed at 5'10" http://nymag.com/fashion/models/jstam/jessicastam/   Your correct in that its hard to make a living from being in just the VS shows.   She's done ads and campaigns.

Image K wrote:
Again...this has nothing to do with the OP...since she expressed no ambition other than to be a VS model. That is what she asked about.

Not anyone in Europe. Not anyone else.

Just VS.

She may be...but even she admitted in her OP that her current employment with them has no bearing on her potential as a VS model.

So did my employment as a fitting model have any influence on me doing runway for AP?
How about the fashion intern who was grabbed in to do it the year before?

My point anyway was that Briana just seems pleased to be working for the company in some role. That of course doesn't mean she will end up doing any modelling for them; but being a part of the team in some other way can be nice if you are a fan of the company. Some companies also of course use their staff to do promo modelling. And even that may be something that would be nice. Depends on expectations; and there is nothing wrong with dreaming; as long as your feet are firmly rooted on the ground in terms of making a living. And I'd say Briana is actually please to be working for the company anyway.

My point was relevant because if you want to be a fit model there are many other options because at any time these hundreds of companies all producing fine lingerie need fit models of various shapes and sizes. If she doesn't get into VS she may get a fit job with another: I was telling her that VS are not the only option. AND if she was to get experience and good references say with a smaller company she would likely be taken more seriously if she did see a casting for a VS fit model. I used European examples because obviously I am more familiar with them; but there will be dozens if not hundreds of US lingerie companies and wimwear companies etc looking for fit models too.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You clearly know everything and the rest of us are obviously lucky just to be able to read so that we can bask in your knowledge.

I refuse to engage in continued discourse with you where rather than addressing legitimate concerns and questions e.g. the number of models you personally know in the U.S. who have lucrative careers as fit models you continue to push your agenda.

I've sincerely wished the OP luck in attaining her goals both original and amended once before and I'll do it once again also advising her to be pragmatic as well.

I have stated I don't know what the US situation is like re fit; but I can't think it that different. But I was a fit model for a top international lingerie company so advised it as a possible and pragmatic option for Briana. That is my only agenda.
I know how fit modelling works because that was my professional field; your speciality is wardrobe. People can decide for themselves who provides the better insight.

So - I think you have to think if I was telling you about how to make a living as a wardrobe stylist or jewellery maker you'd be understandably irritated. Of course I wouldn't: I'd attempt to learn from the insights of those who'd been there and done it.

How many modelling jobs last for months; give you up 3-6 days well paid work a week, they put you on the payroll and PAYE , and they don't want you to leave? As far as security goes in modelling jobs there is nothing more secure really if you are out of the top league. And you do a bit of shooting and a bit of runway and showrom etc. So it may not be the pinnacle of modelling but it is something that is more achievable for most of us than dreams of that.

David Shinobi  wrote:
Requirements to be a Victoria's Secret model.


Height: 5'7.5" to 5'9"
Bust: 35"
Natural Waist: 28"
Low hip (8" down): 38"
Body type: toned or firm



Do I need to say more?

Are you sure its a 28" waist? That's kind of big.

Eliza C wrote:
I have stated I don't know what the US situation is like re fit; but I can't think it that different. But I was a fit model for a top international lingerie company so advised it as a possible and pragmatic option for Briana. That is my only agenda.
I know how fit modelling works because that was my professional field; your speciality is wardrobe. People can decide for themselves who provides the better insight.

So - I think you have to think if I was telling you about how to make a living as a wardrobe stylist or jewellery maker you'd be understandably irritated. Of course I wouldn't: I'd attempt to learn from the insights of those who'd been there and done it.

How many modelling jobs last for months; give you up 3-6 days well paid work a week, they put you on the payroll and PAYE , and they don't want you to leave? As far as security goes in modelling jobs there is nothing more secure really if you are out of the top league. And you do a bit of shooting and a bit of runway and showrom etc. So it may not be the pinnacle of modelling but it is something that is more achievable for most of us than dreams of that.

You know how you're tired of everyone trying to tell you what fit models do for a living, my pet peeve is when people discredit my viewpoint on something like modeling on photography because as a wardrobe stylist I can't possibly know about anything other than what colors are trending or what the latest must have look is. As hard as it may be for people to believe we do step out the the closets and away from the fashion magazines and actually take the time to learn about the things we engage in conversation about, at least I do.

For example here's an article which states that the ideal fit model is between 5'7 and 5'8 and a US size 4 http://www.apparelinsiders.com/2011/10/ … ect-fit/#_  Are there exceptions of course? Will the women who are alternate sizes work as steadily? Maybe. But then again maybe not. And it's the latter part that the OP should focus on since she's at a disadvantage height wise.

http://www.perfectfitmodels.com/about-fit-modeling.html Here's another article that says that most fit models get their jobs via agencies. Again I'm sure there are exceptions. And I'm also sure that the models who aren't agency represented possibly have a harder time getting work with more well known clients, clients like VS.

Now of course these are just articles, written by people in the U.S.market, the one where it's likely the OP will be working so I'm sure they don't meet your standards since this is the life you've lived in another country.

Believe it or not, while I may just be a lowly wardrobe stylist I do pride myself on knowing (or learning before speaking) on how different markets may work and while it may not align with your vision of every wannabe model finding her niche, I do find that a little pragmatism and a little research goes a long way.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You know how you're tired of everyone trying to tell you what fit models do for a living, my pet peeve is when people discredit my viewpoint on something like modeling on photography because as a wardrobe stylist I can't possibly know about anything other than what colors are trending or what the latest must have look is. As hard as it may be for people to believe we do step out the the closets and away from the fashion magazines and actually take the time to learn about the things we engage in conversation about, at least I do.

For example here's an article which states that the ideal fit model is between 5'7 and 5'8 and a US size 4 http://www.apparelinsiders.com/2011/10/ … ect-fit/#_  Are there exceptions of course? Will the women who are alternate sizes work as steadily? Maybe. But then again maybe not. And it's the latter part that the OP should focus on since she's at a disadvantage height wise.

http://www.perfectfitmodels.com/about-fit-modeling.html Here's another article that says that most fit models get their jobs via agencies. Again I'm sure there are exceptions. And I'm also sure that the models who aren't agency represented possibly have a harder time getting work with more well known clients, clients like VS.

Now of course these are just articles, written by people in the U.S.market, the one where it's likely the OP will be working so I'm sure they don't meet your standards since this is the life you've lived in another country.

Believe it or not, while I may just be a lowly wardrobe stylist I do pride myself on knowing (or learning before speaking) on how different markets may work and while it may not align with your vision of every wannabe model finding her niche, I do find that a little pragmatism and a little research goes a long way.

It isn't exceptions: if you LOOK at castings for fit models as those of us who ARE or have been fit models do regularly you will realise that what a generalised  article may say is not necessrily the whole picture. Again; you can read an article that says model are between 5ft 7 AND 5FT 8ins and size 4 or whatever yet I cited a solid example of a California dress company looking for a size 18 fit model on here recently.

Now let us look at your cite. Perfect Fit is a Southern California fitting agency. No probs; but let us actually see what else is cited on their pages:

"Fitting model: If you're someone who's a perfect size fill-in-the-blank and has dimensions that match fashion industry standards -- "plus," "petite" and "big and tall" sizes included -- you may find work as a fitting model with a clothing company or clothes designer"

So in other words they come in ALL shapes and sizes which is what I have said.

"The most successful fitting models who make six figures know how clothes are made, know how different fabrics behave, and are very knowledgeable about the line they're modeling."

Which is why I stated that it IS an advantage to be a fan or work for the company in some other way; or have a knowledge or experience of garments. In my interview at AP I was able to demonstate an in depth knowledge of their products going back a long way. So Briana being a fan and working for the company already is an advantage IF she happens to see an opening for a fit job with them that her stats suit. That is unlikely; which is why I suggested looking at other lingerie companies; as she may suit what someone is looking for. If I hadn't got the AP job I'd have maybe got another one with someone else as I had several interviews that week. For every job I saw over a month or so I was the wrong stats for 90% of them but still managed to get several interviews lines up. Most of them I actually saw were for size 12 women. These aren't catwalk clothes they are making they are the real thing to fit real women.

"A successful fitting model can earn between $750 and $1,500 a day, Roberrts noted. On an hourly basis, you might earn between $200 and $275, Levine said. And you might work three-to-five days a week, for between five and eight hours a day."
Which is what I have said: few other modelling jobs offer such security in terms of job longevity, good pay and hours guaranteed. Not that I earned that; and I thought my pay was good. So they are talking about the top paying companies. My partner is a designer and told me this morning that the small factory in which he had his first collection made up had three fit models on the staff. They wouldn't have been paid anything like that and all had other duties. So fit models at the level being talked about are also just the top of the iceberg. In a recession small fashion companies are not going to book fit models at those wages through agencies; but there are an awful lot of them. If you are making garments you need fit models. That is an awful lot of work for a lot of girls besides the forty earning that kind of money in So Cal.

"The model is the one that gives (designers and seamstresses) the direction of how to make the garment," Levine said. "The model can make or break your sales."

Which again is what I have said: a good fit model is HIGHLY valued by the company; and they do not want to lose them.

So; if you are going to research a field which you don't know a great deal about make sure you research your own citations thoroughly rather than cherry picking something that appears to support one part of what you are saying assuming I won't read it. I did; and most of it supports what I have said. As far as most models getting work through an Agency of course an agency is going to say that!!!! And it is likely true when it comes to the $1500 a day jobs!! But yes there is nothing wrong with trying for an agency and they do place a lot of girls - with the small minority of companies that will pay high agency fees for fit models. But lots won't or can't and still pay well.

Eliza C wrote:
It isn't exceptions: if you LOOK at castings for fit models as those of us who ARE or have been fit models do regularly you will realise that what a generalised  article may say is not necessrily the whole picture. Again; you can read an article that says model are between 5ft 7 AND 5FT 8ins and size 4 or whatever yet I cited a solid example of a California dress company looking for a size 18 fit model on here recently.

Now let us look at your cite. Perfect Fit is a Southern California fitting agency. No probs; but let us actually see what else is cited on their pages:

"Fitting model: If you're someone who's a perfect size fill-in-the-blank and has dimensions that match fashion industry standards -- "plus," "petite" and "big and tall" sizes included -- you may find work as a fitting model with a clothing company or clothes designer"

So in other words they come in ALL shapes and sizes which is what I have said.

"The most successful fitting models who make six figures know how clothes are made, know how different fabrics behave, and are very knowledgeable about the line they're modeling."

Which is why I stated that it IS an advantage to be a fan or work for the company in some other way; or have a knowledge or experience of garments. In my interview at AP I was able to demonstate an in depth knowledge of their products going back a long way. So Briana being a fan and working for the company already is an advantage IF she happens to see an opening for a fit job with them that her stats suit. That is unlikely; which is why I suggested looking at other lingerie companies; as she may suit what someone is looking for. If I hadn't got the AP job I'd have maybe got another one with someone else as I had several interviews that week. For every job I saw over a month or so I was the wrong stats for 90% of them but still managed to get several interviews lines up. Most of them I actually saw were for size 12 women. These aren't catwalk clothes they are making they are the real thing to fit real women.

"A successful fitting model can earn between $750 and $1,500 a day, Roberrts noted. On an hourly basis, you might earn between $200 and $275, Levine said. And you might work three-to-five days a week, for between five and eight hours a day."
Which is what I have said: few other modelling jobs offer such security in terms of job longevity, good pay and hours guaranteed. Not that I earned that; and I thought my pay was good. So they are talking about the top paying companies. My partner is a designer and told me this morning that the small factory in which he had his first collection made up had three fit models on the staff. They wouldn't have been paid anything like that and all had other duties. So fit models at the level being talked about are also just the top of the iceberg. In a recession small fashion companies are not going to book fit models at those wages through agencies; but there are an awful lot of them. If you are making garments you need fit models. That is an awful lot of work for a lot of girls besides the forty earning that kind of money in So Cal.

"The model is the one that gives (designers and seamstresses) the direction of how to make the garment," Levine said. "The model can make or break your sales."

Which again is what I have said: a good fit model is HIGHLY valued by the company; and they do not want to lose them.

So; if you are going to research a field which you don't know a great deal about make sure you research your own citations thoroughly rather than cherry picking something that appears to support one part of what you are saying assuming I won't read it. I did; and most of it supports what I have said. As far as most models getting work through an Agency of course an agency is going to say that!!!! And it is likely true when it comes to the $1500 a day jobs!! But yes there is nothing wrong with trying for an agency and they do place a lot of girls - with the small minority of companies that will pay high agency fees for fit models. But lots won't or can't and still pay well.

Are YOU looking at U.S. castings? If not then you can't honestly speak to what may be needed or at the very least is being routinely cast in this country. And that could be a major difference e.g. consider the way matters of copyright are handled in different countries.

Do you know what the word "ideal" means? It means quintessential or preferred so if you're going to nitpick about something I quoted at least pull the whole quote because the operative word in the initial statement you're referencing refers to the standard and while I have said time and time again that there are exceptions to those standards those exceptions don't magically negate the fact that they exist.

Also, please tell me that you realize that all models aren't successful. While a successful model may make between $750 and $1000 how much does an average model make. Can you give me those numbers? What's the salary look like in the U.S. for a model who isn't the ideal size and who has never done this before? Because I'm sure that for every Alek Wek or Linda Evangelista type there are 10, 20 or 100 girls who don't even come close. And yes, I realize that they're fashion models but every facet of the industry has those who are more successful then others.

Additionally in regards to the fact that fit models come from agencies I'll kindly redirect you to the very first page of this thread it's noted that's how VS selects their model. Note that it doesn't say that's how runway models are selected or catalog model or fit models, simply that it how models are selected.

Finally, I will state (again) that you're personal experiences with AP aren't necessarily going to be the same experiences that the OP (or anyone else) has with another company.

Tiffany_B wrote:
First, do you know what the word "ideal" means? It means quintessential or preferred so if you're going to nitpick about something I quoted at least pull the whole quote because the operative word in the initial statement you're referencing refers to the standard and while I have said time and time again that there are exceptions to those standards those exceptions don't magically negate the fact that they exist.

Secondly, please tell me that you realize that all models aren't successful. While a successful model may make between $750 and $1000 how much does an average model make. Can you give me those numbers? What's the salary look like in the U.S. for a model who isn't the ideal size and who has never done this before? Because I'm sure that for every Alek Wek or Linda Evangelista type there are 10, 20 or 100 girls who don't even come close. And yes, I realize that they're fashion models but every facet of the industry has those who are more successful then others.

Additionally in regards to the fact that fit models come from agencies I'll kindly redirect you to the very first page of this thread it's noted that's how VS selects their model. Note that it doesn't say that's how runway models are selected or catalog model or fit models, simply that it how models are selected.

Well I shall do just that.
I didn't have time earlier because I had some slides to finish so am back to address that very point.

HERE IS THE REST of the paragraph you cherry picked the first line of:

“My team and I tend to use fit models at all stages of the design process, from draping newly sourced fabrics on the model to final fitting stages,” says Daniel Feld, a Project Runway alum and designer of the line KYMERAH. For every category of clothing, from swimwear to denim to jackets, the ideal proportions vary — though across the board, fit models hold more attainable shapes than runway models."


And it goes on:
“In the swim market, the models tend to be taller, due to the need for the proper torso measurement,” she says. “Even though people come in all shapes and sizes, in swim, the torso length is key to fitting a broad range of bodies. With denim, the rise is key to proper-fitting jeans, along with a great hip-to-waist ratio. If a woman is too small-waisted, there might be issues fitting the general public.“

So they use different size models; some tall; some larger waisted etc. Which I have said all the way through. I never said they ONLY use models who are shorter or larger. Swim generally uses taller models; but again not necessarily the editorial model height or stats.

As for your eralier accustaion that I was somehow looking down on you nothing could be further from the truth. As a fit model it is us who are the backroom girls; just journeymen. You as a designer and stylist I would respect you as I respect anyone for what they do and the value of their knowledge through doing it. It is when they come telling people how what and why about my job I have an issue!!! I DO NOT enter threads about styling throwing my authoritah about!!

Now true there may be some differences in the USA; but pretty much all it has said in your cites supports what I have said.

Some of what the models quoted say is also virtually identical to what I have said in terms of job staisfaction too:

"All my jobs doing fit are memorable. I feel like after working with each and every one of [the designers], sometimes for months at a time, they’re truly appreciative of me being there. When they see their final piece done, and on my body, they’re really happy, and that makes me happy."

That is; that modelling in this field is about being part of a team; not ones own ego.

Now Michelle is 5ft 11"
I am 5ft 6ins.
Kindall Kollins is 5ft 6ins
My friend for La Senza was 5ft 2ins

So that is a good indication of range of height; and the fact I have given Stop Staring as wanting a size 18 while the article quotes size 4 gives an indication of range of sizes.

Then the other modelling opportunities you do a bit of mirrors exactly what I have said as stated by Christy Thompson:

"Does your work as a fit model ever intersect with other types of modeling jobs?
Sometimes I’m asked to do showroom because I already fit the clothes so well. Fit modeling [often] branches into showroom. You can still do print, but most times, fit models are just for fit because of their body type. They’ll fit the clothes on you but look for a girl who’s size-zero to do print."

Then there is what Kindall Kolins - also an actress btw -
"Do you ever feel like other types of models have more perks?
No. They do their thing, and I do mine. I’ve done regular modeling, as well. I think fit modeling is a great job…I don’t feel overshadowed in the least, and I usually wind up working for the company for a long time, where they work one day or one show."

What’s one thing that you like the most about being a fit model?
The designers are so creative, and when they actually ask for your input, it feels really good…You walk into a store, and you’re like, “That’s my body!”

Which again describes to a tee what I have said in defence of fit modelling and its benefits. We may not get the editorial stuff but its a pretty good job.


So; I don't think those are bad citations you have provided in support of what I have been saying pretty much all through.
As I said; things may differ slightly in the USA; but generally it doesn't look that way. The girls cited and fit models looked at of course are top of the business; but like anything else there is a whole iceberg of fit model beneath them that range from the seamstress assisant who is the fit model and receptionist in a small Brick lane leather shop to the girls cited here. What you WON'T often find is fit models that are the editorial standard.

When VS states their models I wouldn't have thought that fit models come into that. If they are making lingeire for exam,ple for larger sized women or larger cups they shpou;d have fit models that reflect that. Or maybe they don't; and that is why we had a crit of their sizing earlier in the thread.

I have SAID that the wages for the girls quoted are the ones at the top; but even the ones at the bottom BECAUSE the nature of the job is the same you need consistency and so fitting models tend to be with a company a long time are still good. I would say in the UK the average is about £150 - £200 a day; won't differ much in the USA I wouldn't have thought. May be more; or you get the girls in the smaller garment companies also manning the office etc. so fit and showroom is just part of their job. The important thing is that in modelling I cannot think of ANY other type of work that is more secure. If you are valued because you are good at it; good with comms, know the product, are enthusiastic about it etc you are made.

Now you can carry on slagging off fit as a decent job all you like but your cites will actually be making it FAR more lucrative looking than I have to many girls here who are modelling their tits off for peanuts and tfp.

Tiffany_B wrote:
First, do you know what the word "ideal" means? It means quintessential or preferred so if you're going to nitpick about something I quoted at least pull the whole quote because the operative word in the initial statement you're referencing refers to the standard and while I have said time and time again that there are exceptions to those standards those exceptions don't magically negate the fact that they exist.

Secondly, please tell me that you realize that all models aren't successful. While a successful model may make between $750 and $1000 how much does an average model make. Can you give me those numbers? What's the salary look like in the U.S. for a model who isn't the ideal size and who has never done this before? Because I'm sure that for every Alek Wek or Linda Evangelista type there are 10, 20 or 100 girls who don't even come close. And yes, I realize that they're fashion models but every facet of the industry has those who are more successful then others.

Additionally in regards to the fact that fit models come from agencies I'll kindly redirect you to the very first page of this thread it's noted that's how VS selects their model. Note that it doesn't say that's how runway models are selected or catalog model or fit models, simply that it how models are selected.

Well I shall do just that.
I didn't have time earlier because I had some slides to finish so am back to address that very point.

HERE IS THE REST of the paragraph you cherry picked the first line of:

“My team and I tend to use fit models at all stages of the design process, from draping newly sourced fabrics on the model to final fitting stages,” says Daniel Feld, a Project Runway alum and designer of the line KYMERAH. For every category of clothing, from swimwear to denim to jackets, the ideal proportions vary — though across the board, fit models hold more attainable shapes than runway models."


And it goes on:
“In the swim market, the models tend to be taller, due to the need for the proper torso measurement,” she says. “Even though people come in all shapes and sizes, in swim, the torso length is key to fitting a broad range of bodies. With denim, the rise is key to proper-fitting jeans, along with a great hip-to-waist ratio. If a woman is too small-waisted, there might be issues fitting the general public.“

So they use different size models; some tall; some larger waisted etc. Which I have said all the way through. I never said they ONLY use models who are shorter or larger. Swim generally uses taller models; but again not necessarily the editorial model height or stats.

As for your eralier accustaion that I was somehow looking down on you nothing could be further from the truth. As a fit model it is us who are the backroom girls; just journeymen. You as a designer and stylist I would respect you as I respect anyone for what they do and the value of their knowledge through doing it. It is when they come telling people how what and why about my job I have an issue!!! I DO NOT enter threads about styling throwing my authoritah about!!

Now true there may be some differences in the USA; but pretty much all it has said in your cites supports what I have said.

Some of what the models quoted say is also virtually identical to what I have said in terms of job staisfaction too:

"All my jobs doing fit are memorable. I feel like after working with each and every one of [the designers], sometimes for months at a time, they’re truly appreciative of me being there. When they see their final piece done, and on my body, they’re really happy, and that makes me happy."

That is; that modelling in this field is about being part of a team; not ones own ego.

Now Michelle is 5ft 11"
I am 5ft 6ins.
Kindall Kollins is 5ft 6ins
My friend for La Senza was 5ft 2ins

So that is a good indication of range of height; and the fact I have given Stop Staring as wanting a size 18 while the article quotes size 4 gives an indication of range of sizes.

Then the other modelling opportunities you do a bit of mirrors exactly what I have said as stated by Christy Thompson:

"Does your work as a fit model ever intersect with other types of modeling jobs?
Sometimes I’m asked to do showroom because I already fit the clothes so well. Fit modeling [often] branches into showroom. You can still do print, but most times, fit models are just for fit because of their body type. They’ll fit the clothes on you but look for a girl who’s size-zero to do print."

Then there is what Kindall Kolins - also an actress btw -
"Do you ever feel like other types of models have more perks?
No. They do their thing, and I do mine. I’ve done regular modeling, as well. I think fit modeling is a great job…I don’t feel overshadowed in the least, and I usually wind up working for the company for a long time, where they work one day or one show."

What’s one thing that you like the most about being a fit model?
The designers are so creative, and when they actually ask for your input, it feels really good…You walk into a store, and you’re like, “That’s my body!”

Which again describes to a tee what I have said in defence of fit modelling and its benefits. We may not get the editorial stuff but its a pretty good job.


So; I don't think those are bad citations you have provided in support of what I have been saying pretty much all through.
As I said; things may differ slightly in the USA; but generally it doesn't look that way. The girls cited and fit models looked at of course are top of the business; but like anything else there is a whole iceberg of fit model beneath them that range from the seamstress assisant who is the fit model and receptionist in a small Brick lane leather shop to the girls cited here. What you WON'T often find is fit models that are the editorial standard; which is pretty much what you and others are implying; and some actually stated it as gospel because the catwalk clothes have to fit the models. that ISN'T what fit models do: we are the template for the ACTUAL clothes manufactured. Every garment you see is made originally on a fit model unless its a cheap fit all rag. They can work stuff on a dummy but if it is a quality garemnt they are going to use a live model; a dummy can't tell you how it feels or move it; and certainly can't tell the wholesale and retail clients about it and show it off to them.

When VS states their models I wouldn't have thought that fit models come into that. If they are making lingeire for example for larger sized women or larger cups they shpou;d have fit models that reflect that. Or maybe they don't; and that is why we had a crit of their sizing earlier in the thread.

I have SAID that the wages for the girls quoted are the ones at the top; but even the ones at the bottom BECAUSE the nature of the job is the same you need consistency and so fitting models tend to be with a company a long time are still good. I would say in the UK the average is about £150 - £200 a day; won't differ much in the USA I wouldn't have thought. May be more; or you get the girls in the smaller garment companies also manning the office etc. so fit and showroom is just part of their job. The important thing is that in modelling I cannot think of ANY other type of work that is more secure. If you are valued because you are good at it; good with comms, know the product, are enthusiastic about it etc you are made.

Now you can carry on slagging off fit as a decent job all you like but your cites will actually be making it FAR more lucrative looking than I have to many girls here who are modelling their tits off for peanuts and tfp trying to break into the FAR more competitibe biz of editorial modelling. I am trying to share a far better route where you don't get as much glory (which is possibly why few of you know what we do) but it is a damn decent job and models do NOT have to be editorial standard.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This is the second time you've said this.   Care to share which companies those might be?   The ones I know of use agency standard models.   Since no one has said this I will.   The sad truth is few Black models no matter how attractive are being used for fashion or lingerie.   Most companies won't hire freelance unrepresented talent.   They have no time for flakes or bs so they use agencies or models they know personally.   While there may work for a few as a fitting model it is NOT something most models can do.   The paid work for non agency models is going to usually be with photographers who may provide lingerie but not for companies to advertise their products.

The OP is very pretty and I want to be clear I have no ideal what she is capable of but I do know that most of the models used in on-line catalogues or mail outs are either agency models who fall within agency standards or friends of the site owner or company.   However, please share companies or websites petite models like the OP can apply too.   If she can be a 'fit' model.   Where should she go?   Websites?   Its nice we can be supportive but bullshi

Venessa M Baez wrote:
Well, since you've asked for examples. AND since you're being rude now, without reason. I said nothing for you to bite my neck off like this.
EXAMPLES:

Not to mention many glamour agencies take petite and below-petite models.

hey thanks Vanessa.
The problem is here that certain photographers and others who are NOT models are telling models how to do their job, what to do, and to get their feet on the ground because they'll never make a living. This arrogance astounds me. I peronally know two petite models doing fit work and used in catalogues etc for other top lingerie companies; the top fit girl in the field in the USA is only 5ft 6ins, yet the  denial and negative scorn still remains.

Venessa M Baez wrote:

Well, since you've asked for examples. AND since you're being rude now, without reason. I said nothing for you to bite my neck off like this.
EXAMPLES:

Not to mention many glamour agencies take petite and below-petite models.

Vanessa, I'll ask nicely. Can you please direct me to U.S. based companies that have the practice of taking models that fall outside of the industry standard on a regular basis? VS (the company the OP is interested in) is out since their own site says that they pull agency models. I ask because unless someone is planning on buying the OP a plane ticket to Europe so that she can contact any one of these hundreds of companies it's kind of a moot point what they do.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Vanessa, I'll ask nicely. Can you please direct me to U.S. based companies that have the practice of taking models that fall outside of the industry standard on a regular basis. VS (the company the OP is interested in) is out since their own site says that they pull agency models. I ask because unless someone is planning on buying the OP a plane ticket to Europe so that she can contact any one of these hundreds of companies it's kind of a moot point what they do.

YOUR OWN QUOTES HAVE STATED THAT FITTING MODELS ARE NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD in the way you imply.
The reason I have cited all those other companies is that they are the ones I know; to show the Op that there are lots of very classy lingerie companies; they take various size and shapes fit models (and I KNOW many of them) ;  and there will be dozens of US companies too. EVERY garment manufacturer uses all sizes of model to make the clothes on for the market NOT the catwalk. READ your own cites.

If a company is looking for a fit model and Briana fits the bill she can do that. It may not be VS but if she has an interest in fashion and lingerie it is a realistic - the only realistic - option. she just has to find out the US companies; If they are using editorial industry standard models to make lingerie on however no wonder they have fit issues with the customers as is evident from testimony here!!!

Anyway here are ten in the USA; and certainly they aren't even all using industry standard size fashion models in their editorial/catalogue shoots:
http://thelingerieaddict.com/2011/07/10 … n-usa.html
Here are 1060 manufacturers and retailers:
http://www.manta.com/mb_35_B008905M_000/lingerie

Venessa M Baez wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This is the second time you've said this.   Care to share which companies those might be?   The ones I know of use agency standard models.   Since no one has said this I will.   The sad truth is few Black models no matter how attractive are being used for fashion or lingerie.   Most companies won't hire freelance unrepresented talent.   They have no time for flakes or bs so they use agencies or models they know personally.   While there may work for a few as a fitting model it is NOT something most models can do.   The paid work for non agency models is going to usually be with photographers who may provide lingerie but not for companies to advertise their products.

The OP is very pretty and I want to be clear I have no ideal what she is capable of but I do know that most of the models used in on-line catalogues or mail outs are either agency models who fall within agency standards or friends of the site owner or company.   However, please share companies or websites petite models like the OP can apply too.   If she can be a 'fit' model.   Where should she go?   Websites?   Its nice we can be supportive but bullshi

Tiffany_B wrote:
Vanessa, I'll ask nicely. Can you please direct me to U.S. based companies that have the practice of taking models that fall outside of the industry standard on a regular basis? VS (the company the OP is interested in) is out since their own site says that they pull agency models. I ask because unless someone is planning on buying the OP a plane ticket to Europe so that she can contact any one of these hundreds of companies it's kind of a moot point what they do.

Taffiny, nobody's telling her to go contact them. Things take time, practice, experience. Obviously. But to say that it's completely useless not to work towards that point is a bit ridiculous cruel.

Eliza C wrote:
YOUR OWN QUOTES HAVE STATED THAT FITTING llamaS ARE NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD in the way you imply.
The reason I have cited all those other companies is that they are the ones I know; to show the Op that there are lots of very classy lingerie companies; they take various size and shapes fit llamas (and I KNOW many of them) ;  and there will be dozens of US companies too. EVERY garment manufacturer uses all sizes of llama to make the clothes on for the market NOT the catwalk. READ your own cites.

If a company is looking for a fit llama and Briana fits the bill she can do that. It may not be VS but if she has an interest in fashion and lingerie it is a realistic - the only realistic - option. If they are using editorial industry standard llamas to make lingerie on however no wonder they have fit issues with the customers as is evident from testimony here!!!

Actually my quotes have stated the standard for fit llamas and have noted that exceptions do exist. For someone who proclaims to know so much about the industry you should know that there are different standards for different facets of llamaling so why are you even bringing this up.

You can say whatever you want about the U.S. market but the point remains that it's not the market you work in and while I noted you claim about the top U.S. fit llama being 5'6 that's still taller than the OP and you provide no proof to back this claim up.

Finally, this entire thread is based on the OP wanting to work for VS her exact words were My ultimate goal in life is to be a Victoria Secret llama so your prattling on about other companies is really irrelevant in terms of advising her towards that. The point which you refuse to acknowledge remains that VS pulls their llamas from agencies,the OP isn't agency standard for fashion, lingerie or fit llamaing.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
However I am no expert so you and Eliza and can provide her and other petite models with direction.

Gee, thank you!

Nobody's saying OP will become famous. But it's a more realistic goal to work towards. Which was the point of my first post. It wasn't "Bullshi^"

So thank you.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I looked and I see no proof of your claims.   Any actual links besides some names.   Actual proof of their using petite models and can you name some glamour agencies.   In general those I know of only use standard height and weight models.   Petite models aren't used unless they are stars of some sort like Hallie Berry.  As for my being rude.   Not my intent so my apology that you took it that way.

My guess would be that some pretty petite models work but I think the OP is in the states and may not be able to fly to the UK.   So that I make it clear.   We are focused on the OP.   I have little ideal about Europe and agencies their.   She is in America and in this country agencies do not represent petite models for the most part and 'glamour' agencies' tend to portfolio mills.    However I am no expert so you and Eliza and can provide her and other petite models with direction.

I have just given a whole load in my post above.

Venessa M Baez wrote:

Taffiny, nobody's telling her to go contact them. Things take time, practice, experience. Obviously. But to say that it's completely useless not to work towards that point is a bit ridiculous cruel.

First of all my name is Tiffany, really simply to spell and even if not it's included next to all my tags.

Secondly, you clearly can't provide an answer to my question because if you could you would rather than telling me how "cruel" I am for telling someone that they should be realistic and the reality is that VS only pulls agency girls. You claimed to know of other companies that didn't and rather than show and prove you cited Eliza's examples which are from a foreign country and therefore don't count unless the OP is planning an international move to pursue modeling which at 5'5 would be insane.

Eliza C wrote:
I have just given a whole load in my post above.

Providing links to companies that make lingerie in the U.S. isn't the same as providing proof that those same companies will willingly and repeatedly hiring fit models that don't meet the industry standards. That's kind of like you asking me to prove I can sew and me sending you pictures of sewing machines or even finished garments.

Tiffany_B wrote:
First of all my name is Tiffany, really simply to spell and even if not it's included next to all my tags.

Secondly, you clearly can't provide an answer to my question because if you could you would rather than telling me how "cruel" I am for telling someone that they should be realistic and the reality is that VS only pulls agency girls. You claimed to know of other companies that didn't and rather than show and prove you cited Eliza's examples which are from a foreign country and therefore don't count unless the OP is planning an international move to pursue modeling which at 5'5 would be insane.

As well, my name is Venessa, not Vanessa, as you directed to me. I'd also appreciate a correct spelling. So thank you, for seeing my point as my name is also clear to see how to spell...

The OP said she wants to be a VS model, and I provided a more realistic goal to work towards, because there ARE other companies besides VS. Yes, those are in another country, but its another goal. Nothing happens overnight, as I'm sure we all know.
Working through years to get to a freelance standard that involves international work is still more realistic than trying to become a VS model.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Actually my quotes have stated the standard for fit models and have noted that exceptions do exist. For someone who proclaims to know so much about the industry you should know that there are different standards for different facets of modelling so why are you even bringing this up.

You can say whatever you want about the U.S. market but the point remains that it's not the market you work in and while I noted you claim about the top U.S. fit model being 5'6 that's still taller than the OP and you provide no proof to back this claim up.

Finally, this entire thread is based on the OP wanting to work for VS her exact words were My ultimate goal in life is to be a Victoria Secret model so your prattling on about other companies is really irrelevant in terms of advising her towards that. The point which you refuse to acknowledge remains that VS pulls their models from agencies,the OP isn't agency standard for fashion, lingerie or fit modeling.

Can you not read?

I have cited a fitting model job in castings for a size 18 with Stop Staring.
I have cited two of my colleagues who do fit for lingerie companies who are both petite.
I have cited Krystal Kollins probably the most well known fit model in the USA:
Here ya go; 5ft 6ins:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0464106/

There is a HUGE difference between saying someone has no chance and giving someone her only realistic opportunity of becoming a lingerie model (and it may not be with VS) that I KNOW because of my experience and colleagues and friends and knowledge of INSIDE the fashion world PLUS your own cites if you read them.

I am so sorry this particular non industry standard model is pissing on your attempt to belittle someone's dream but I WAS an Agent Provocateur model; and round these parts that carries a lot more prestige than VS.

Venessa M Baez wrote:
As well, my name is Venessa, not Vanessa, as you directed to me. I'd also appreciate a correct spelling. So thank you, for seeing my point as my name is also clear to see how to spell...

The OP said she wants to be a VS model, and I provided a more realistic goal to work towards, because there ARE other companies besides VS. Yes, those are in another country, but its another goal. Nothing happens overnight, as I'm sure we all know.
Working through years to get to a freelance standard that involves international work is still more realistic than trying to become a VS model.

Point taken.

I still see no actual examples of U.S. based companies that take non Industry standard sized models though so I'm going to have to assume that you were just making claims for the sake of making them which in my opinion is far crueler then providing someone with facts regarding the facet of the industry they want to be involved in.

Eliza C wrote:
Can you not read?

I have cited a fitting model job in castings for a size 18 with Stop Staring.
I have cited two of my colleagues who do fit for lingerie companies who are both petite.
I have cited Krystal Kollins probably the most well known fit model in the USA:
Here ya go; 5ft 6ins:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0464106/

That's one company out of how many that's hiring for a model that doesn't meet agency standards?

Wow, two whole petite models in the entire industry.

That's one model, who by the way is taller than the OP.

Can you read? I've said, more than once that there are exceptions to the industry standard so it's no surprise than you can point out a few. But the existence of these three exceptions doesn't negate the fact that standards do exist and that more often then not they're what companies look for.

Tiffany_B wrote:

Point taken.

I still see no actual examples of U.S. based companies that take non Industry standard sized models though so I'm going to have to assume that you were just making claims for the sake of making them which in my opinion is far crueler then providing someone with facts regarding the facet of the industry they want to be involved in.

I have given you this:
http://thelingerieaddict.com/2011/07/10 … n-usa.html

Some of those images it is pretty evident some of the models are not 'industry standard'

Eliza C wrote:

YOUR OWN QUOTES HAVE STATED THAT FITTING MODELS ARE NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD in the way you imply.
The reason I have cited all those other companies is that they are the ones I know; to show the Op that there are lots of very classy lingerie companies; they take various size and shapes fit models (and I KNOW many of them) ;  and there will be dozens of US companies too. EVERY garment manufacturer uses all sizes of model to make the clothes on for the market NOT the catwalk. READ your own cites.

If a company is looking for a fit model and Briana fits the bill she can do that. It may not be VS but if she has an interest in fashion and lingerie it is a realistic - the only realistic - option. she just has to find out the US companies; If they are using editorial industry standard models to make lingerie on however no wonder they have fit issues with the customers as is evident from testimony here!!!

Anyway here are ten in the USA; and certainly they aren't even all using industry standard size fashion models in their editorial/catalogue shoots:
http://thelingerieaddict.com/2011/07/10 … n-usa.html
Here are 1060 manufacturers and retailers:
http://www.manta.com/mb_35_B008905M_000/lingerie

I know of three in your first link that are using agency standard models.   The second link has a lot of companies are using stock photos.   They are NOT setting up photo shoots of models in their clothing.   Very quickly, many smaller companies and websites do not hire models at all.   They buy their photos from stock companies.   Those stock shots feature agency models.   Some are plus sized but most come from a agency.   This is in small part why catalog works pays well.   Your photos my be sold several times.   

However you didn't actually do a shoot in Nowhere, Tx with Texas Panties.   Texas Panties bought your photos for their website.   Little surprised you didn't know that.

Tiffany_B wrote:
That's one company out of how many that's hiring for a model that doesn't meet agency standards?

Wow, two whole petite models in the entire industry.

That's one model, who by the way is taller than the OP.

Can you read? I've said, more than once that there are exceptions to the industry standard so it's no surprise than you can point out a few. But the existence of these three exceptions doesn't negate the fact that standards do exist and that more often then not they're what companies look for.

Jesus they are just TWO that I lived with; not that I know of.
Your own citation produced the best known US fit model whjo is 5ft 6 ins.
If I could be arsed to look I'd find lots more.

You think it is just ONE company that makes size 18 clothes? What do you think every company that makes clothes makes the ACTUAL (not catwalk) garments on?

I have no idea about VS fit models; but I know that neither UK European or US companies use industry standard models for fit. How the FUCK can you make lingerie for big boobed women on girls as thin as a rake with no tits??????

The op is ONE INCH shorter than the most famous fit model in the USA. 5ft 6ins is WAY off what you think industry standard is.

JessieLeigh wrote:
I ALMOST posted that it's mindboggling that this thread is still going on, but then I remembered what site I was on...

Do you ladies really feel this is worth going back and forth over, still?

I was expecting it to get locked after the OP, to be honest