JadeDRed wrote:

Depends what you call real money, s'all real to me, i'm (relatively) poor.

Point taken and completely understood

The difference can be pretty big though, especially for a model not doing nudes.

David Shinobi  wrote:

My point being was if this was still the film age, TF would not be anywhere as rampant and there would probably be ¼ or less of the people you see here on MM.
Theres no instant gratification of viewing a photo then throwing it up in FB or wherever just to get 'Oh baby You're So Hot" comments with 2 minutes of snapping the image.

The affordability of digital had made every Tom, Dick and Harry a 'photographer'.

Film costs money from buying, processing and prints or scans.
Thats a lot of money to do TF all the time unless your name is Rockefeller.

I was doing a lot of TF back in the film days, but I was also getting hired by models enough so to pay my rent back in the day.  Now I only shoot TF with good models or with those who might have promise and are up for what I want to shoot.  Not because they're not worth paying, but I look at it as making all of our work better.  If I shoot trade with someone it is because I value them. 

I've paid models for my art and personal projects but I rarely (once in the last 4 years) give any images to them if I am paying a full rate.  I also pay when my client is paying the bill, this is mostly commercial and lifestyle work.

Bottom line is trade is about people working together who can help each other out.  Payment happens when someone has something the other wants.

Tiffany_B wrote:
It's great that you approach llamaing from this perspective and there are of course other llamas on the site who do as well but you have to know that there are a lot of "models" as well, girls and guys who think they're hot or are told repeatedly that they should llama and then instantly expect to be paid to stand in front of the camera. If I had a dime for every portfolio I came across filled with cell phone pics, badly lit and horribly styled shots where the "model" listed they were only interested in paid work I'd have enough money to go on a decent vacation.

Are there llamas who deserve to get paid? Of course there are, but I agree with a lot of the sentiment that any real money tends to come from clients as opposed to the photographers directly.

I agree with that - hence I have tried to share my experiences of where that money does come from. But photographers should also realise as much as many of us may like to; why would we give up a potential paid gig for a designer, boutique or Art institutioon, film company, performance gig, etc etc for a tf one?

So for example if someone approaches me for a tf shoot next week so I
1. Must take a day off my existing academic commitments
2. I only have to pick up the phone and go work in London for a designer for £200?

what do you think I am going to say?

Yes; I take your point about the ports where the girls just think they are hot so a photographer should pay them. Of course there are many ports like that. Why on earth would you be looking at them? It is exactly the same with photographers. Ports that have a dozen pics of a semi naked girl (often the same one) that look like they belong on Southern Charms. And; THEY are the ones that most frequently ask for tf and gets their tits in a twist when you say no. Then follow the abusive 'you are up yourself' and 'anyway your tits are too small to be a llama' emails.

But one just ignores the crap just as anything in life. There are also tens of thousands of high class llamas and photographers here (and stylists and designers here of course). And the llamas won't charge £1k for an hour because they are 'so hot' !!! or the photographers expect you to pay them because they had a picture in Fiesta Reader's Wives once.

4 R D wrote:
I heard some models here make a living as fitting models. If only one of them came to this thread to share her experience.

I am currently helping around twenty models into this work as a result of the threads you spoke about. I also got a model my job at AP.
So some find it useful. A damn sight more useful than sarcasm.

Now. Once more. WTF are people doing at MM if the models are no good, unreliable, should work for free etc? Just be off with you....go and approach an agency.

Most of us don't earn a fortune. But things like fit modelling, modelling for artists, promo work  etc pay. So surprisingly; a lot of models find my insights useful. Especially when many of them are actually far better models than I but haven't made it pay. Of course I can see that photographers would prefer models to stay hungry, be desperate, and believe they will become a star if they shoot with the right photographers but actually there are better ways to make a living as a model. As we have VERY few threads about fit etc and HUNDREDS about how models should work for free then I think I should be allowed to redress the balance without sarcastic comments.

And; if models start to realise that the living they can make in these ways is decent but not hugely lucrative; then they may start to realise that doing a shoot all day for a reasonable fee rather than pie in the sky figures ; then that is only going to help photographers too. Especially on the issues that Tiffany raised and in terms of reliability and professionalism.

Eliza C wrote:
Yes; I take your point about the ports where the girls just think they are hot so a photographer should pay them. Of course there are many ports like that. Why on earth would you be looking at them? It is exactly the same with photographers. Ports that have a dozen pics of a semi naked girl (often the same one) that look like they belong on Southern Charms. And; THEY are the ones that most frequently ask for tf and gets their tits in a twist when you say no. Then follow the abusive 'you are up yourself' and 'anyway your tits are too small to be a model' emails.

It's not always a matter of choice in terms of viewing the "model" ports some of them have decent avatars and some of them have no avatars (the latter of which is sometimes a site glitch when you're switching images) so sometimes you get sucked in without meaning to. And you're right there are a lot of "photographers" with the same issue.

BTW: How weird is it that we haven't said a single antagonistic thing to each other, this type of behavior usually takes us three or four pages in a thread

Tiffany_B wrote:

It's not always a matter of choice in terms of viewing the "model" ports some of them have decent avatars and some of them have no avatars (the latter of which is sometimes a site glitch when you're switching images) so sometimes you get sucked in without meaning to. And you're right there are a lot of "photographers" with the same issue.

BTW: How weird is it that we haven't said a single antagonistic thing to each other, this type of behavior usually takes us three or four pages in a thread

I don't know I come over perhaps sometimes as strong and get people's backs up. Eventually too I suppose there is the gradual understanding for one another's positions.

Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
And its driving me nuts to see good photographers have models with awkward poses and faces because there too cheap to pay a good model.
Your thoughts?

For hobbyists, either models or photographers, it makes little sense to spend money on a professional, unless they can afford the luxury or their plan is to eventually go pro themselves.

Eliza C wrote:

I am currently helping around twenty models into this work as a result of the threads you spoke about. I also got a model my job at AP.
So some find it useful. A damn sight more useful than sarcasm.

Now. Once more. WTF are people doing at MM if the models are no good, unreliable, should work for free etc? Just be off with you....go and approach an agency.

Most of us don't earn a fortune. But things like fit modelling, modelling for artists, promo work  etc pay. So surprisingly; a lot of models find my insights useful. Especially when many of them are actually far better models than I but haven't made it pay. Of course I can see that photographers would prefer models to stay hungry, be desperate, and believe they will become a star if they shoot with the right photographers but actually there are better ways to make a living as a model. As we have VERY few threads about fit etc and HUNDREDS about how models should work for free then I think I should be allowed to redress the balance without sarcastic comments.

And; if models start to realise that the living they can make in these ways is decent but not hugely lucrative; then they may start to realise that doing a shoot all day for a reasonable fee rather than pie in the sky figures ; then that is only going to help photographers too. Especially on the issues that Tiffany raised and in terms of reliability and professionalism.

It is amusing seeing you respond to a lot of points I have not made at all.

Heather Elizabeth M wrote:
Okay so this has been driving me crazy for awhile now so i figured i might as well get others opinions. You hear models complaining about not getting paid all the time, but those are the same models that say yes to every TF offer they get! I see so many models who are shooting TF with photographers that are not up to their level. Why? Its not benifiting your port at all. You should be charging that photographer! Same goes the opposite way though. When your just statting out pay a good photographer! You cant show your abilities as a model with a point and shoot photographer who doesnt know how to edit. (Which is what 90% of TF shoots are)
Basically bottom line if your good at what you do stop doing TF for lower quality work. Its driving me nuts to see good models have crappy pictures because there too cheap to pay a photographer. And its driving me nuts to see good photographers have models with awkward poses and faces because there too cheap to pay a good model.
Your thoughts?

1)  People tend to forget that modeling is a competitive business.  The issue isn't how much one particular model is worth; the issue is how much do similar local models are worth.  If Suzy

4 R D wrote:

It is amusing seeing you respond to a lot of points I have not made at all.

You made a sarcastic point and thought I'd address that.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
I sometimes think too big a deal is made out of spending a couple of hours doing tf model photography, on both side of the lens.
I suppose if you're a professional model or photographer it's probably the same as being a bricklayer who spends all day building houses and then gets asked by his neighbour to come round and build a wall in his garden - for free, in his spare time.

But between amateurs, why not?

Fine Tim...yes of course. And if a model needs better port work because she isn't getting paid work that works a treat.

It is the ten tf offers a month from the caution tape, nude, and lifestyle photographers that is the problem. NO I don't want to shoot a wedding dress, a mortgage lender and couple stock shoot, another nude, or another pin up for free. We are not all amateurs. The assumption that we must be because we are on MM is starting to get people annoyed.

4 R D wrote:
It is amusing seeing you respond to a lot of points I have not made at all.

You want to know what I find amusing? The fact that you have nothing better to do then to try and get a rise out of someone. Wait? Did I say amusing, I meant annoying.

What was the purpose of your original comment aside from trying to get her to say something? You clearly didn't mean to contribute with your backhanded compliment.

Eliza can push her point pretty hard but in this case she didn't and for nothing more than what I suppose was your own lame amusement you decided to make an asinine and juvenile comment about her and her p.o.v. re: fit models.

I may not always like what she has to say or how she chooses to say it but I do respect that it's an aspect of the industry that a lot of new models aren't aware of as being an avenue to make money without them having to get naked.

Eliza C wrote:
I don't know I come over perhaps sometimes as strong and get people's backs up. Eventually too I suppose there is the gradual understanding for one another's positions.

I'm the same way...and I do think we've come upon a mutual understanding.

Tiffany_B wrote:
I'm the same way...and I do think we've come upon a mutual understanding.

It is kind of normal. In many ways internet forums like this don't have the physical presence that may otherwise make one err on the side of caution in a discussion excahnge. Nobody wants a fight in the pub so one avoids topics of mutual disagreement. That has the side effect of never understanding one another's position however; which isn't always good. In forums; sometimes that can be overcome. I don't bear grudges but am a terrier with a topic until they change my mind; I change theirs; or a mutual understanding of one another's views comes about based on informed opinion, insights, annecdotes etc. Unfortunately; some people do hold grudges; and don't debate a topic to learn/give the benefit of their knowledge; just to rant off. But I can see you don't hold a grudge and do see debate as productive so cool xx

Eliza C wrote:
We are not all amateurs. The assumption that we must be because we are on MM is starting to get people annoyed.

I guess that a proportion of both models and photographers make that assumption because of stupidity and ignorance, but I am not sure if it is because they are unable to recognise a serious portfolio when they see it or because they are too lazy to look in the first place.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know well paid professional fashion and commercial models who shoot for free all the time because they love being part of art and because they love modelling.   The same goes for photographers.   Modelling and photography is about the creation of art like singing or dancing or acting.   If your only focus is what a project pays then maybe you should do something else.   None of this is comparable or should be to normal jobs.   I am passionate about photography.   I read books, study and try to improve myself all the time.   I usually fail but I make the effort.

When I hear from models who seem more interested in my wallet then what my concept is then I don't want to shoot them.   However this my opinion.   If you are a model and you feel you only want to shoot when your being paid then that is your right.   I choose to try and work with people who are passionate about what they do and my experience has been that those individuals model all the time whether they are being paid or not.  This isn't to say models who only work for payment are less passionate then those who do unpaid tests.   I also have and will pay models but I won't ever want to pay a model who I feel sees me as a 'john'.   I don't ever want to shoot a model who's ideal of art is a photo of Benjamin Franklin.

However; in some cases people stick to their guns; moan about how much one writes; without taking any of it on board.

OK. I was in a VERY highly paid job; probably the best thing I will ever have on my cv. It was great don't get me wrong; but one is either happy with the money and disseminating information about the exploits of others or wants to do exploits themselves for less money.

So I went back to Uni; and did a bit of modelling for some extra money. Lots of girls here doing the same. Believe it or not; we don't expect to hit the heights; on either a fame level or a creative, job statisfaction level. Sometimes; we may get a bit of action that is worth it for a while. So I gave up my PhD as AP offered me a job. Well paid. But noweher near what I was earning before. So MONEY is NOT the motivation solely. And it is insulting for you to suggest that.

You guys do it for love and we are hookers if we don't effectively. You say this without any knowledge of the model's personal circumstances; and very limited knowledge of how most models earn a living or their motivation. You know a handful of fashion models and have seen a few crappy ports on MM and have a couple of unreliable stories. I know and worked in a network with each model having a different network of hundreds of freelance (and agency) models in London. I don't know one only in it for the money; but all were making money because they had creative input value: many in some weay involved in fashion and art in other ways or had been in the past or planning to in the future.

AND you also make no acknowledgement that 90% of photographers DO DO IT for the money too. Why else shoot weddings? And on a creative level; 90% of jobs we are asked to shoot are on this level; mundane. We DO NOT shoot caution tape pictures and mortgage advice stock shoots for FUN, LOVE OR ART because that doesn't come into it!!!!!! And; generally; when it is a more sophisticated shoot with fashion or artistic integrity it NEVER comes up that we do it for TF. Artists designer and the majority of photographers pay us. I know that perplexes you but it is the truth.

I work as a model because I am passionate about SOME jobs I do.
I am passionate about my academic work 100% of what i do.

I can do NEITHER without being paid to do so.

So if you can; bully for you but most of us don't have as fat a wallet as you that we can do things for fun with any sort of commitment. So to commit to it so we don't have to go back to doing a job for £80k a year we need pay enough to live. And; thankfully most fellow professionals in the fashion industry, artists etc realise that. We can't eat the pics you give us nice as they may be; they aren't going to get us more work UNLESS we are just starting off or our existing port isn't working or we need to test constantly at high fashion level; and there are a whole host of people happy top pay us. PLUS we don't get the copyright. We cannot ever sell it: you can; and will become professional.

So when you come along saying you read books on photography that shows you love it; what the hell do your think we do? We study the craft , fashion, etc too - yes some of us can actually read. I'd take you on in any pub quiz on fashion and slaughter you. I get paid to write articles on fashion. Or ask Jade; she's got a fashion degree perhaps you'd learn a bit more about fashion from her than you'd get from your photography books; and be well worth you paying; and is not earning a great deal from it when she would be capable of doing many other jobs for a good salary. So don't EVER say we don't do it for love or art etc and we shouldn't do it for money becuase we absolutely DO NOT do it for the meagre financial rewards. But we DO need those meagre rewards to continue to do it. And get them. And if we are lucky and hard working we may even get a bit more. So keep your wallet tightly bound and continue wasting your time here telling us we should do it for free because your attitude tells me that you care more about your money than your art; but there are plenty who never even question paying us because they know we are worth every penny to their projects.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When I hear from models who seem more interested in my wallet then what my concept is then I don't want to shoot them.   ...   I choose to try and work with people who are passionate about what they do and my experience has been that those individuals model all the time whether they are being paid or not.  This isn't to say models who only work for payment are less passionate then those who do unpaid tests.   I also have and will pay models but I won't ever want to pay a model who I feel sees me as a 'john'.   I don't ever want to shoot a model who's ideal of art is a photo of Benjamin Franklin.

I usually pay models (because everyone needs to eat), but I agree with you entirely about the "wallet" effect, especially as those who seem hungriest for money also seem to have the fewest posing skills.

natural beauties of qld wrote:
I usually pay models (because everyone needs to eat), but I agree with you entirely about the "wallet" effect, especially as those who seem hungriest for money also seem to have the fewest posing skills.

They are not professional models. Why would you pay them? I don't disagree on that. As Tiffany and I already agreed on.

And those of us that are professional ususally also have very reasonable rates; are 100% reliable, can pose etc. That is how we got to be professionals.

natural beauties of qld wrote:
I guess that a proportion of both models and photographers make that assumption because of stupidity and ignorance, but I am not sure if it is because they are unable to recognise a serious portfolio when they see it or because they are too lazy to look in the first place.

That is what I am also wondering.
I can understand it with a chancer gwc; but with someone like Tony I don't know how he'd ever get a flake from a pro model; or be looking at rank amateurs and wannabes ports. There are plenty of top models here if he wants them; and thousands of reliable journeymen pros. And none of us would have the idea of Art being a Benjamin Franklyn pic or be motivated solely by money. Those that are he shouldn't be looking at and the difference to me is obvious.

Eliza C wrote:

However; in some cases people stick to their guns; moan abouyt how much one writes; without taking any of it on board.

OK. I was in a VERY highly paid job; probably the best thing I will ever have on my cv. It was greast don't get me wrong; but one is either happy disseminating information about the exploits of others or wants to do exploits themselves.

So I went back to Uni; and did a bit of modelling for some extra money. Lots of girls here doing the same. Believe it or not; we don't expect to hit the heights; on either a fame level or a creative, job statisfaction level. Sometimes; we may get a bit of action that is worth it for a while. So I gave up my PhD as AP offered me a job. Well paid. But noweher near what I was earning before. So MONEY is NOT the motivation solely. And it is insulting for you to suggest that.

You guys do it for love and we are hookers if we don't effectively. You say this without any knowledge of the model's personal circumstances; and very limited knowledge of how most models earn a living or their motivation. You know a handful of fashion models and have seen a few crappy ports on MM and have a couple of unreliable stories. I know and worked in a network with each model having a different network of hundreds of freelance (and agency) models in London. I don't know one only in it for the money; but all were making money because they had creative input value: many in some weay involved in fashion and art in other ways or had been in the past or planning to in the future.

AND you also make no acknowledgement that 90% of photographers DO DO IT for the money too. Why else shoot weddings? And on a creative level; 90% of jobs we are asked to shoot are on this level; mundane. We DO NOT shoot caution tape pictures and mortgage advice stock shoots for FUN, LOVE OR ART because that doesn't come into it!!!!!! And; generally; when it is a more sophisticated shoot with fashion or artistic integrity it NEVER comes up that we do it for TF. Artists designer and the majority of photographers pay us. I know that perplexes you but it is the truth.

I work as a model because I am passionate about SOME jobs I do.
I am passionate about my academic work 100% of what i do.

I can do NEITHER without being paid to do so.

So if you can; bully for you but most of us don't have as fat a wallet as you that we can do things for fun with any sort of commitment. So to commit to it so we don't have to go back to doing a job for £80k a year we need pay enough to live. And; thankfully most fellow professionals in the fashion industry, artists etc realise that. We can't eat the pics you give us nice as they may be; they aren't going to get us more work UNLESS we are just starting off or our existing port isn't working or we need to test constantly at high fashion level; and there are a whole host of people happy top pay us. PLUS we don't get the copyright. We cannot ever sell it: you can; and will become professional.

So when you come along saying you read books on photography that shows you love it; what the hell do your think we do? We study the craft , fashion, etc too - yes some of us can actually read. I'd take you on in any pub quiz on fashion and slaughter you. I get paid to write articles on fashion. Or ask Jade; she's got a fashion degree perhaps you'd learn a bit more about fashion from her than you'd get from your photography books; and be well worth you paying; and is not earning a great deal from it when she would be capable of doing many other jobs for a good salary. So don't EVER say we don't do it for love or art etc and we shouldn't do it for money becuase we absolutely DO NOT do it for the meagre financial rewards.

Eliza,   I didn't quote you nor was I speaking too or about you.   Yet you once again made my comments about you.   I have only spoken about how I see this.   I didn't call anyone a hooker and I respect those models who only work for payment.   I have no ideal who Jade is and I didn't say that models who only work for payment aren't in love with modelling.    I will say, will you ever post a thread where you DON'T tell us you were a fit model for AP, name drop or talk about being a PH.D.   We all get it.   You are really smart and if we didn't know you remind us constantly.   We get it.   You've helped models on this site become fit models and are a mentor to many more.   True or not, you always tell us.

As for saying why women model, I didn't.   I did say I don't want to work with models who's only focus is what I can pay.

natural beauties of qld wrote:

I usually pay models (because everyone needs to eat), but I agree with you entirely about the "wallet" effect, especially as those who seem hungriest for money also seem to have the fewest posing skills.

Nothing wrong with that.   A lot of the ideals I shoot have no real value beyond my goofy artistic notions.   I had a model pose in a bug ridden dirty factory in Texas.   Others in corn fields and in most cases nude.   I paid.   I treated lunch.   I bought clothes and paid for gas.   They were my ideals and while several did it TF I would still give them some money.   Not one focused on what I was or wasn't paying.   You are correct.   My feeling is that those the hungriest for money tend to be the worst models.

I had a recent model show and she literally stuck her hand out and ask how much was I paying per hour.   This when she approached me for a TF shoot.   My response isn't fit to repeat but we didn't shoot.

Eliza C wrote:

For the most part we aren't. Only when you get a photographer in forums constantly telling models how to earn a living and they can't unless they are ten foot tall size 00 unless they go and do porn; and all MM models are rank amateurs. I am exagerating of course but that kind of message constantly from Tony and a tiny minority of others winds me and a lot of other models up.

Tony is a great photographer. He doesn't need to take that approach and I would respect his work and opinion on photography and other insights in every other way. But don't please Tony continue to tell granny how to SUCK EGGS! Or that we can only get said eggs from you; when in fact you don't have any chickens (ie you don't pay in eggs)

Tony's also correct.  MOST models and photographers on MM are amateurs and/or hobbyists, who will probably never make much, if any, money from their craft.  I've been at this for a long time and a very small percentage of the models I knew 10 years ago made enough money to quit their day job and most ended up adjusting their expectations and shot for fun, because... there's not a whole lot out there.  Same with photographers.  They either got really good with weddings and senior portraits, or they decided to just shoot for the heck of it.

You make it sound like there are fashion designers and boutiques on every corner, just waiting for someone to come by and ask if they need a model and ready to sling out wads of cash and high end merchandise for the lucky girl that comes in and asks.  Unfortunately, that's not the way it is for most models.  And, in a lot of cases, that's fine, because the model isn't in this to make a living.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza,   I didn't quote you nor was I speaking too or about you.   Yet you once again made my comments about you.   I have only spoken about how I see this.   I didn't call anyone a hooker and I respect those llamas who only work for payment.   I have no ideal who Jade is and I didn't say that llamas who only work for payment aren't in love with llamaling.    I will say, will you ever post a thread where you DON'T tell us you were a fit llama for AP, name drop or talk about being a PH.D.   We all get it.   You are really smart and if we didn't know you remind us constantly.   We get it.   You've helped llamas on this site become fit llamas and are a mentor to many more.   True or not, you always tell us.

As for saying why women llama, I didn't.   I did say I don't want to work with llamas who's only focus is what I can pay.

And I do not know ONE llama whose only focus is pay. Or think art is a picture of Ben Franklyn. I cite myself constantly because I am living proof your stereotypes are false; and I am just a bog standard pro llama. Jade is another. We just happen to be in this very thread.

Furthermore you again question whether I am telling the truth. No need for it; taken personally and another sign your presence here is meant purely to insult and antagonise.

Tiffany_B wrote:
You want to know what I find amusing? The fact that you have nothing better to do then to try and get a rise out of someone. Wait? Did I say amusing, I meant annoying.

What was the purpose of your original comment aside from trying to get her to say something? You clearly didn't mean to contribute with your backhanded compliment.

Eliza can push her point pretty hard but in this case she didn't and for nothing more than what I suppose was your own lame amusement you decided to make an asinine and juvenile comment about her and her p.o.v. re: fit models.

I may not always like what she has to say or how she chooses to say it but I do respect that it's an aspect of the industry that a lot of new models aren't aware of as being an avenue to make money without them having to get naked.

Eliza was already doing her thing, that is what prompted me to make that post in the first place. I have no issue with anyone trying to guide and mentor new models but maybe she should stop doing it in threads and use a more appropiate space, like private messaging. All I see in her posts is a woman desperate for recognition and credibility arguing in an internet forum.

Oh, and I already have responded to OP, hence my contribution to her.

Eliza C wrote:
And I do not know ONE model whose only focus is pay. Or think art is a picture of Ben Franklyn. I cite myself constantly because I am living proof your stereotypes are false; and I am just a bog standard pro model. Jade is another. We just happen to be in this very thread.

Furthermore you again question whether I am telling the truth. No need for it; taken personally and another sign your presence here is meant purely to insult and antagonise.

I know a metric crapton of models who were in it (briefly) mainly for the money.  They'd shoot with anyone and everyone with a few bucks in their hand.  Most of them didn't last long, because the GWC's that paid them found a new hottie and paid her instead. 

I mean, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, it can be said that *I* was in it for the money and, in some cases, that would be true.  But I really savored those shoots where the photographer and I could stretch our creative legs and do something really off the wall.  I also made sure that whomever did hire me got their money's worth and then some.

So, who's right?  Me, who's seen plenty of them or you who hasn't met any?

This is why science 101 states that anecdotal evidence is virtually meaningless.

Eliza C wrote:
And I do not know ONE model whose only focus is pay. Or think art is a picture of Ben Franklyn. I cite myself constantly because I am living proof your stereotypes are false; and I am just a bog standard pro model. Jade is another. We just happen to be in this very thread.

Furthermore you again question whether I am telling the truth. No need for it; taken personally and another sign your presence here is meant purely to insult and antagonise.

Eliza using yourself as proof of your theory doesn't work.   Lets say I was the late 
Richard Avedon and every time a photographer asked about becoming a fashion photographer I raced in to tell him and every one else about how wrong he was based solely on my experience.   Not taking into account where he lives, who he might know, his talent and vision and his overall goals.   Whatever success you had as a Fit model has no bearing on a discussion of models who aren't you or live in the UK or know the people you claim too.   Lets start with your 'I do not know ONE model whose only focus is pay'.   Do you know all models?   Do you know every model on MM?   Doesn't it stand to reason that there are SOME models focused on only payment?   

If, Jade has to charge or feels she always has too that's her business.   I can guarantee she won't work with the best shooters because they largely don't pay.   The key is using yourself as the mold for your theory is bad science.   As to me being insulting.   I can do that also but I haven't nor have I made anything personal.   I actually like you but I don't like that you seem to have to name drop and remind us all ad infinitum about the shows you walked in and who've met and that you were a AP Fit model.

4 R D wrote:
Eliza was already doing her thing, that is what prompted me to make that post in the first place. I have no issue with anyone trying to guide and mentor new models but maybe she should stop doing it in threads and use a more appropiate space, like private messaging. All I see in her posts is a woman desperate for recognition and credibility arguing in an internet forum.

Oh, and I already have responded to OP, hence my contribution to her.

Why do you care what Eliza does or how she does it? Does it effect you?

If you already responded to the OP there was zero reason to make some sarcastic comment about Eliza. I know she can come on a little strong (she in fact admits this about herself) and she's clearly passionate about what she's done. If you have a problem with that how about taking your own advice and sending her a private message as opposed to voicing your opinions about her in a very public space...just a thought.

Tiffany_B wrote:
Why do you care what Eliza does or how she does it? Does it effect you?

If you already responded to the OP there was zero reason to make some sarcastic comment about Eliza.

I made those comments for the same reason you are having this exchange with me: I find her posts annoying.

Tiffany_B wrote:
If you have a problem with that how about taking your own advice and sending her a private message as opposed to voicing your opinions about her in a very public space...just a thought.

Why? I have no interest in mentoring her or winning an argument or letting her know what I think of her. I did not even intended to elaborate or escalate on the issue but you kept asking me "why" in the forum, so I gave you an answer in the forum.

4 R D wrote:

Tiffany_B wrote:
Why do you care what Eliza does or how she does it? Does it effect you?

If you already responded to the OP there was zero reason to make some sarcastic comment about Eliza.

I made those comments for the same reason you are having this exchange with me: I find her posts annoying.


Why? I have no interest in mentoring her or winning an argument or letting her know what I think of her. I did not even intended to elaborate or escalate on the issue but you kept asking me "why" in the forum, so I gave you an answer in the forum.

Fair enough...

Lieza Nova wrote:

Tony's also correct.  MOST models and photographers on MM are amateurs and/or hobbyists, who will probably never make much, if any, money from their craft.  I've been at this for a long time and a very small percentage of the models I knew 10 years ago made enough money to quit their day job and most ended up adjusting their expectations and shot for fun, because... there's not a whole lot out there.  Same with photographers.  They either got really good with weddings and senior portraits, or they decided to just shoot for the heck of it.

You make it sound like there are fashion designers and boutiques on every corner, just waiting for someone to come by and ask if they need a model and ready to sling out wads of cash and high end merchandise for the lucky girl that comes in and asks.  Unfortunately, that's not the way it is for most models.  And, in a lot of cases, that's fine, because the model isn't in this to make a living.

I lived in London. There ARE fashion designers and boutiques on every corner. There would be in any metropolis with a fashion quarter.

If models do not present themselves to these then they simply are not marketing themsleves well. Work does NOT come to you on the strength of a reasonable portfolio; YOU have to tell people it is there. Yes I have punded the streets introducing myself to these boutiques and designers; and at first the work comes back is minimal. But then six months after you suddenly get a call because they need a model and their fashion show budget doesn't allow for agency girls. So they use maybe 4 clients (they feel really chuffed they have been asked to model); the daughter of the boutique owner and a freind; and ex model or two;  and two or three pro models - to show them how to do it and make them feel special. Then you do this kind of thing and you get asked to do a few shoots for their ads in local mags; do showroom in the shop on new collection dates and xmas etc. Almost every quality boutique in the UK does this kind of thing.  There is shed loads of such work if you look for it. It rarely though sometimes involves photography; and therefore I think many girls do not think about seeking it because they think of modelling solely in terms of photography.

I can't tell you in provincial areas how much they value having a model around; and they put you into their fellow boutique owners too. Now I only do a bit of this; but see the same girls on the circuit who are local models the same. So why aren't there more doing it? These girls are either making a  living between Swansea and Cardiff; or like me they do it part time.

Yes I can understand in the US things may work differently. Fo a start; there may not be enough concentration of work in close towns. So while Cardiff is twenty minutes from Swansea and there is shed loads of modelling work and several agencies; the next twon in the US may be a hudred miles or more away. So yes that may limit the amount of work available.There may be other factors. But how long do you think I would be unemployed in NY? It isn't that different to London. Of course with fit you have to be exactly the size they are loking for and sizing may work differently; but all sizes are sought at some company at some point.

If you are NOT in it to make a living you have to do something else for a living which limits your availability and commitment to the job. So for example if I got a job in PR; and a design house called me up to do three days work I wouldn't be able to do it. THAT is the reality. You CAN do it for love and art; but you can't always make yourself available.

Most photography work is pretty mundane too; and certainly I cannot think that photographers would love shooting a haveanawayday poster for a train company with a model getting off a train helped by a guard with a kid. Incidentally; the train guard is 54 and makes a living as a model and film extra too and has done for twenty years. How do I know: funnily enough I also worked for a train company several years ago. Now neither the models, or the photographer does that kind of thing for 'art' or 'love' and that is the very kind of mundane job for corporations that most of us have to do. There are even agencies now that specialise in character models because many of theose companies WANT their customers to identify with them. On one shoot I did the photographers was really excited to shoot me after I had been styled - but the client asked for most of my make up and my gloves and stockings to be changed because I looked 'too racy'. So we ended up with a tedious shot. THAT is the way things are: both photographers and models do lots of that stuff purely for money.

NOW if some of those photographers then want to shoot a bit of fine art nude or high fashion for fun that's great. But they can likely afford to if they are shooting weddings or the train company: pays well. The models for the train company however don't make much; and have to do a lot of tht kind of thing.

Then you have promo modelling. Once again; those with high expectatons probably look down their nose at it. I can tell you about a friend who has a promo company securing pretty big contract with mobile phone companies. All his girls are models; either professional or part time or at least done a bit. They get paid extremely well and do events such as big race meetings, huge rock concerts, and shopping malls. They tour around being put up in hotels etc. Some end up doing the photo ads; get used on websites etc so they HAVE to have a good image be well styled and have modelling expereince. It is modelling. It may not be to those that see it as 'Art' and do it for 'Love' but it is; and it pays. Then there are the models who lead in the horse after a race for the sponsor; and the model who presents the trophy to an athlete at the olympics; or the ring girl at a boxing match. Now ALL these girls will do a bit of photographic modelling. And because of their experience with the public they are generally pretty good at their job and I have seen them work their tits off in a shoot and learned from them.

Then you have the 'alt' girls. Yes; a lot of then start off doing it for fun. But eventually; they do get some pay; and if they wish to promote themselves and graft at it they can make money from it; some making a living. It's hard graft to get there; and some are happy just doing the odd bit. Others end up doing fit and catalogue shoots for alt and retro designers; and from that perhaps get on the books of agencies like UGLY. There are many such now. Other times it will be a photographer shoots you at a tattoo convention then calls you up and offers you some cash to do a studio shoot. Then others wnat you. Or they may also do birelsque; vintage shows, fetish conventions either promo, showroom, or even fashion show, and performance (trapeze, stilt walking etc). Then you get used for music videos. Now tghey MAY love this work and do it for fun. BUT a lot of them graduate to making a living from it or at least part time and there is nothing wrong with that.

So....because Tony and yourself don't see all thjis; or because it doesn't happen in your town, don't assume it isn't happening.

because of my assdcoaition with Art, Fashion, Horse racing, and the alt scene I have seen all of this. I have seen girls do it for fun; then those who make some money from it, then girls who eventually give up the day job to do it. IF they are not agency signed they will HAVE to have an online portfolio. Nobody even looks at your hard port these days. Many of those girls are here.

Yes; there are also complete amateur wannabes who will never have a chance of one day's paid modelling.
There are also those who purely do it for enjoyment.

But what I am saying is I have seen all these first hand; whereas I think Tony and with due respect yourself have not.

Now I am fully aware that some of you are fed up of hearing about fit because either you mistakenly belive it is a tiny minority niche, is somehow lowly, or only happens in London or Paris and NY; OR you think I am telling you about it to 'show off' that I worked as one for AP. If you believe that you are just kidding yourselves and remain in denial of reality if you wish. YES if one wants to work professionally as a model one MAY have to move to a metropolis. That should go without saying. And there is NOTHING special about being a fit model as others keep telling me. So why would one show off about it? I am just simply showing how it is

1.Possible to make a living from modelling in ways some apparently do not know exist; though with fit photography is seldom involved so you'd have to reduce any ambition of fame and glory. But the work is well paid, reliable and regular and every designer and design house use them.
2. Showing you don't have to be 6ft and size 00 to work as a pro model; not even in fashion. Of course some of you won't count that as fashion; but for those with an actual interest in fashion rather than dreams of stardom it's a pretty good gig.
3. Showing that once you ARE working as a model whether it is in fit, promo, performance, or Fine art nude for Art institutions and artsists; it is ALL paid work; you are NOT going to do tf and potentially miss a paid gig. The diary fills up quick; and it is ALL paid work. You may have to work across genres ; but most pro models do.

I have NO problems with models who choose to just do it for fun love and art. BUT I have major problems with those who suggest IF we do it for money we are hookers when in fact MANY of us have either interrupted academic studies or a high paid career to do it because it interest us for other reasons (I just mainly wanted to see how fashion designers work; and work with artists because I can't draw etc to contribute) . AND the reason we gave up other careers or take a year or two out from studies is the paid modelling work mounted up so we could.

AND when people are prepared to pay you to do something you love then you turn down the money THEN you can speak this view. Nobody does that. Artists and photographers and designers the same. Yeah they may start out doing it for love and art but if someone wants to pay I would like to see them refuse. In fact; usually the ones who whine most about money being a motivator being bad are usually in  my expereince the ones who keep the tightest hold on their purse strings. And at some point; the hobbysit either becomes professional or has to do something else. They can stay a hobbyist; but few will honestly want that.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Eliza using yourself as proof of your theory doesn't work.   Lets say I was the late 
Richard Avedon and every time a photographer asked about becoming a fashion photographer I raced in to tell him and every one else about how wrong he was based solely on my experience.   Not taking into account where he lives, who he might know, his talent and vision and his overall goals.   Whatever success you had as a Fit model has no bearing on a discussion of models who aren't you or live in the UK or know the people you claim too.   Lets start with your 'I do not know ONE model whose only focus is pay'.   Do you know all models?   Do you know every model on MM?   Doesn't it stand to reason that there are SOME models focused on only payment?   

If, Jade has to charge or feels she always has too that's her business.   I can guarantee she won't work with the best shooters because they largely don't pay.   The key is using yourself as the mold for your theory is bad science.   As to me being insulting.   I can do that also but I haven't nor have I made anything personal.   I actually like you but I don't like that you seem to have to name drop and remind us all ad infinitum about the shows you walked in and who've met and that you were a AP Fit model.

I use myself as an example precisely because I AM a journeyman model and have done the whole breadth of modelling work; with the possible exception of the tiny narrow and competitive field you consider as modelling. So that is why I have more of a clue about how journeyman models make their living than you and Richard Avdeon put together would: you don't know what the fuck we do. My experience is NOT limited to fit, to fine art, to showroom to boutique to lifestyle magazine to hair salon to promo to performance etc etc. I have DONE the lot and made money at all of it; and so do a hell of a lot of my freinds and colleagues in some degree or other.

Again; I would relate it to any other industry; but here is one I know about.
The photographer has to shoot Frankie Dettori the jockey for a magazine. From this and the interview the journalist does; the assumption will be made that there are maybe only 100 jockeys like him around and that it is a minority sport in which only elite riders can make a living.

This assumption would of course be utter nonsense. Every ONE to FOUR of racehorses in the UK (25 000 or so) has a work rider. Some of those will be semi pro and amateur jockeys; a few hundred will be pro jumps jockeys, a few will do work riding as part of other equine duties, etc. The photographer hasn't a clue how big the industry is; or what goes on in the back room; let alone all the other affiliated equine and racing industry realted fields that emply getting on for half a million people in the UK alone and contribute a colossal amount to GDP.

So ...the work rider who DOES see all that would be entitled to come into a forum and bollock you for making stupid assesments based on your narrow experience.

So let's say a kid at school says he wants to be a jockey. Who would he best listen to; the photographer who shot Frankie Detorri , big shot celebrity photographer as he is, or the work rider? The work rider will give him all the realistic likely avenues he can work as a rider and get paid for it. No glamour unless he is very lucky; but he makes a living working with horses; and doesn't have to do it JUST because he loves them.

Because that is what myself and many other models do. We do the massive amount of work you apparently have no clue exists simply because YOU think we want to be Dean Johnson and that's where your ambition is focussed. Well some of us have our feet placed more firmly on the ground and make a living. And we are legion.

Now I will NOT go away Tony until you stop trolling these forums putting girls down based on comparing us with top fashion girls and saying you can get them for free and that we are a load of wannabes that haven't a clue and are unreliable and should work for bigshots like you for free. FUCK that; I am not having it; and I have the support of plenty of other girls I assure you.

The best shooters don't pay because the third party does.

And we DON'T and cannot all ride Frankel in a race; and don't need to or aspire to just to work as a work rider/groom in racing.

You have NO CLUE what models do for a living - I have cited fit as one small part; and there are other fields I know and have worked in; and know many other models that have too. I don't know things like glamour but that is another field open. But I know a damn sight more than you do about how to make a living as a journeyman model.

Now; if you wonder why my tone is harsh it is because you CONSTANTLY imply that I am boasting; or lying.
As I have already stated; there is little to boast about being a fit model. We are the backroom girls. If I wanted to boast I would choose somehwere else in which to do it where I have a far larger audience than these threads. The truth is it is just trying to share my experience so people like you realise we often can't work tf because it would mean sacrificing paid work. Maybe not as glamorous as shooting; but it pays bills and still has a lot of job satsicfaction. I know it has also helped other girls.
The second is that I am lying. I am putting a stop to that crap once and for all here and now and calling you out. IF you believe that; put your money where your mouth is. Care to wager? How about $1000? Come on....do it because I can easily prove my work record and tax paid on AP slips. I can also prove easily all the other experience across a wide range of modelling from boutique shows to fine art at Art institutions. NOW. Either desist from these spurious implications; or place your bets. Put up; or shut up.

The third crit is the 'outlier' one. This is one that I do not consider a personal attack and it is reasonable. Perhaps my experience is not typical of the 'average' MM model. But it is certainly typical of many. I have however PROVED this to you in past threads by showing you the many fit models on MM - including the Vivienne Westwood girl. Then in the last thread I showed you a Victioria Secret 5ft 2in bra fit model. And in past threads dozens more. Also dozens more shorter models making a living from fashion from fit to print that are not 6ft tall 00; and that is without going through all the hundreds of outsize girls. They have told you too. If you do NOT wish to shoot them because you want a 6ft model that is your perogative; but don't you DARE tell us we cannot make a living because many of us do; or dare say we are unreliable etc. yes; many are: but they are easily avoided with a bit of common sense.

So there are lots of us just here; and the vast majority of fit models don't actually have to be: they are employed; on the payroll. Don't always need the extra work from photographers. So while it may be reasonable to suggest my evidence may be an outlier; the truth is I have provided ample evidence it is NOT.

Yes; I agree with you and Tiffany there are also thousands of ports where the 'model' is in cuckoo land. There are also thousands of ports from photographers who shot a wedding three times (badly) and wants to CHARGE models to shoot them. There are also thousands where the photographer is just wanting to shoot girls with their boobs out for fun; and again EXPECT the model to pay!!! There are also photographers who are proper creeps and we have all had expereince of them. So WHERE are the threads with models judging ALL MM photographers by these people?

So. Either you accept my testimony; and at least see it as a balance to your view even if you do not agree; or back up your allegatuions that I am a liar. But I warn you; I have already made peope here who called me a liar look very foolish when I delivered the proof re my academic work.


What you are NOT doing is trying to shut me up calling me a liar and accusing me of boasting. That is ad hominem and the sign of a bankrupt argument. It is also a low and false claim. My interest is only to stop the degrading attacks on all MM models because of a few flakes from photographers who are trying to get something for nothing from the very inexperienced wannabes they then judge us all by. AND to help other models realise WHERE to gain satisfactory paid employment in modelling because I have a wide range of professional expereince at the journeyman level. And; not to rely on photographers because they generally don't pay if they are professionals UNLESS it is their personal project. The third party does. And that is something I think probably we can agree on.

Now. The last thread we locked horns in was the VS thread. How was it NOT relevant my testimony when I made a living mainly as a fit model for the best lingerie fashion house in the business? It wasn't a boast - I was just trying to give her a potential realistic route biut told her she may have to widen her traget to other lingerie companies and look at fit not print. TWO of my friends were fit models before me for other lingerie companies too; and that was in a small academic circle of friends: so that should give you an indication that it is a fairly common job. And yes; I'd tell Richard Avedon the same but I would think he'd already know about fit models because Lauren Hutton started as one: yes; EVEN Vogue employed them.
http://dianavreeland.com/page/posts/op/read/id/114

Using myself AND others as an example doesn't work for YOU because your mind appears so narrow it is unwilling to see any testimony as anything but a lie or a boast because it contradicts your apparent agenda.

4 R D wrote:
I made those comments for the same reason you are having this exchange with me: I find her posts annoying.


Why? I have no interest in mentoring her or winning an argument or letting her know what I think of her. I did not even intended to elaborate or escalate on the issue but you kept asking me "why" in the forum, so I gave you an answer in the forum.

You are NOT forced to read them and everyone has the right to give their opinion.

And I assure you the feeling is mutiual; especially when none of your testimony has given anything positive. You don't like me because what I have to say fine; just ignore it. But if you want to make an enemy of me and generally be rude and sarcastic expect shit back.

And yeah; I know my posts are annoying to the photographers who prowl here grumping that they don't want to pay pro llamas. If MM girls are so crap just leave; stop trolling.

4 R D wrote:
Eliza was already doing her thing, that is what prompted me to make that post in the first place. I have no issue with anyone trying to guide and mentor new models but maybe she should stop doing it in threads and use a more appropiate space, like private messaging. All I see in her posts is a woman desperate for recognition and credibility arguing in an internet forum.

Oh, and I already have responded to OP, hence my contribution to her.

What utter bollocks. You do know I have a huge blog audience, a public persona and here in threads maybe a dozen people are looking right? I actually dislike attention; but I have it already so I have to live with it. And it doesn't come from MM - I come here for breaks away from it. I spent four hours yesterday with a film crew for a tv documentary about my academic work. Best you research people before you throw around ridiculous allegations.

I neither like arguing; nor need attention from it. But when I know about a subject and share my insights trying to put me down by saying I am a liar or boasting just to attempt to discredit what I am saying is pathetic. I  and other MM models are getting sick and tired of the usual suspects; a tiny minority of disgruntled photographers, coming into the Model Coloquoy forum and insulting us. If you do not wish to hear from me and think MM is full of amateurs and girls who do not deserve pay then why not leave? There are far better places for you to demonstrate what a good photographer you and don't need to pay  than the small group of people who read these threads; especially if you have such a negative view of MM models. I suggest you go to an agency.

Everything I write is to enlightne some of you guys how and why a model does what she does. I have a wide circle of freinds in all theatres of modelling; and have done many myself and earned a living. So if I can help other girls - and not everyone wants to comm by pm for fear of nuisance - with advice publicly; and put a few of you straight that don't get how we get paid then all well and good. I also btw have many emails from photographers who appreciate what I am saying.

If you think I am an attention seeker why give it to me? Frankly I wish you'd ignore my posts and leave those who do appreciate them read. Maybe its you who are desperate for attention.

Eliza C wrote:
I lived in London. There ARE fashion designers and boutiques on every corner. There would be in any metropolis with a fashion quarter.

If models do not present themselves to these then they simply are not marketing themsleves well. Work does NOT come to you on the strength of a reasonable portfolio; YOU have to tell people it is there. Yes I have punded the streets introducing myself to these boutiques and designers; and at first the work comes back is minimal. But then six months after you suddenly get a call because they need a model and their fashion show budget doesn't allow for agency girls. So they use maybe 4 clients (they feel really chuffed they have been asked to model); the daughter of the boutique owner and a freind; and ex model or two;  and two or three pro models - to show them how to do it and make them feel special. Then you do this kind of thing and you get asked to do a few shoots for their ads in local mags; do showroom in the shop on new collection dates and xmas etc. Almost every quality boutique in the UK does this kind of thing.  There is shed loads of such work if you look for it. It rarely though sometimes involves photography; and therefore I think many girls do not think about seeking it because they think of modelling solely in terms of photography.

I can't tell you in provincial areas how much they value having a model around; and they put you into their fellow boutique owners too. Now I only do a bit of this; but see the same girls on the circuit who are local models the same. So why aren't there more doing it? These girls are either making a  living between Swansea and Cardiff; or like me they do it part time.

Yes I can understand in the US things may work differently. Fo a start; there may not be enough concentration of work in close towns. So while Cardiff is twenty minutes from Swansea and there is shed loads of modelling work and several agencies; the next twon in the US may be a hudred miles or more away. So yes that may limit the amount of work available.There may be other factors. But how long do you think I would be unemployed in NY? It isn't that different to London. Of course with fit you have to be exactly the size they are loking for and sizing may work differently; but all sizes are sought at some company at some point.

If you are NOT in it to make a living you have to do something else for a living which limits your availability and commitment to the job. So for example if I got a job in PR; and a design house called me up to do three days work I wouldn't be able to do it. THAT is the reality. You CAN do it for love and art; but you can't always make yourself available.

Most photography work is pretty mundane too; and certainly I cannot think that photographers would love shooting a haveanawayday poster for a train company with a model getting off a train helped by a guard with a kid. Incidentally; the train guard is 54 and makes a living as a model and film extra too and has done for twenty years. How do I know: funnily enough I also worked for a train company several years ago. Now neither the models, or the photographer does that kind of thing for 'art' or 'love' and that is the very kind of mundane job for corporations that most of us have to do. There are even agencies now that specialise in character models because many of theose companies WANT their customers to identify with them. On one shoot I did the photographers was really excited to shoot me after I had been styled - but the client asked for most of my make up and my gloves and stockings to be changed because I looked 'too racy'. So we ended up with a tedious shot. THAT is the way things are: both photographers and models do lots of that stuff purely for money.

NOW if some of those photographers then want to shoot a bit of fine art nude or high fashion for fun that's great. But they can likely afford to if they are shooting weddings or the train company: pays well. The models for the train company however don't make much; and have to do a lot of tht kind of thing.

Then you have promo modelling. Once again; those with high expectatons probably look down their nose at it. I can tell you about a friend who has a promo company securing pretty big contract with mobile phone companies. All his girls are models; either professional or part time or at least done a bit. They get paid extremely well and do events such as big race meetings, huge rock concerts, and shopping malls. They tour around being put up in hotels etc. Some end up doing the photo ads; get used on websites etc so they HAVE to have a good image be well styled and have modelling expereince. It is modelling. It may not be to those that see it as 'Art' and do it for 'Love' but it is; and it pays. Then there are the models who lead in the horse after a race for the sponsor; and the model who presents the trophy to an athlete at the olympics; or the ring girl at a boxing match. Now ALL these girls will do a bit of photographic modelling. And because of their experience with the public they are generally pretty good at their job and I have seen them work their tits off in a shoot and learned from them.

Then you have the 'alt' girls. Yes; a lot of then start off doing it for fun. But eventually; they do get some pay; and if they wish to promote themselves and graft at it they can make money from it; some making a living. It's hard graft to get there; and some are happy just doing the odd bit. Others end up doing fit and catalogue shoots for alt and retro designers; and from that perhaps get on the books of agencies like UGLY. There are many such now. Other times it will be a photographer shoots you at a tattoo convention then calls you up and offers you some cash to do a studio shoot. Then others wnat you. Or they may also do birelsque; vintage shows, fetish conventions either promo, showroom, or even fashion show, and performance (trapeze, stilt walking etc). Then you get used for music videos. Now tghey MAY love this work and do it for fun. BUT a lot of them graduate to making a living from it or at least part time and there is nothing wrong with that.

So....because Tony and yourself don't see all thjis; or because it doesn't happen in your town, don't assume it isn't happening.

because of my assdcoaition with Art, Fashion, Horse racing, and the alt scene I have seen all of this. I have seen girls do it for fun; then those who make some money from it, then girls who eventually give up the day job to do it. IF they are not agency signed they will HAVE to have an online portfolio. Nobody even looks at your hard port these days. Many of those girls are here.

Yes; there are also complete amateur wannabes who will never have a chance of one day's paid modelling.
There are also those who purely do it for enjoyment.

But what I am saying is I have seen all these first hand; whereas I think Tony and with due respect yourself have not.

Now I am fully aware that some of you are fed up of hearing about fit because either you mistakenly belive it is a tiny minority niche, is somehow lowly, or only happens in London or Paris and NY; OR you think I am telling you about it to 'show off' that I worked as one for AP. If you believe that you are just kidding yourselves and remain in denial of reality if you wish. YES if one wants to work professionally as a model one MAY have to move to a metropolis. That should go without saying. And there is NOTHING special about being a fit model as others keep telling me. So why would one show off about it? I am just simply showing how it is

1.Possible to make a living from modelling in ways some apparently do not know exist; though with fit photography is seldom involved so you'd have to reduce any ambition of fame and glory. But the work is well paid, reliable and regular and every designer and design house use them.
2. Showing you don't have to be 6ft and size 00 to work as a pro model; not even in fashion. Of course some of you won't count that as fashion; but for those with an actual interest in fashion rather than dreams of stardom it's a pretty good gig.
3. Showing that once you ARE working as a model whether it is in fit, promo, performance, or Fine art nude for Art institutions and artsists; it is ALL paid work; you are NOT going to do tf and potentially miss a paid gig. The diary fills up quick; and it is ALL paid work. You may have to work across genres ; but most pro models do.

I have NO problems with models who choose to just do it for fun love and art. BUT I have major problems with those who suggest IF we do it for money we are hookers when in fact MANY of us have either interrupted academic studies or a high paid career to do it because it interest us for other reasons (I just mainly wanted to see how fashion designers work; and work with artists because I can't draw etc to contribute) . AND the reason we gave up other careers or take a year or two out from studies is the paid modelling work mounted up so we could.

AND when people are prepared to pay you to do something you love then you turn down the money THEN you can speak this view. Nobody does that. Artists and photographers and designers the same. Yeah they may start out doing it for love and art but if someone wants to pay I would like to see them refuse. In fact; usually the ones who whine most about money being a motivator being bad are usually in  my expereince the ones who keep the tightest hold on their purse strings. And at some point; the hobbysit either becomes professional or has to do something else. They can stay a hobbyist; but few will honestly want that.

At least half of this novel doesn't even pertain to what I wrote, so I'm not going to bother with it.  It also contradicts a lot of what you've said in earlier posts, which is something that I don't deal with on general principle.  I see no point in arguing with someone who can't even figure out what their own position is.

If you want to feel superior to the rest of us, because you can drop a few names and continually remind people of the work you've done, have at it.  I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you, as I find the practice to be utterly classless. 

My body of work speaks for itself.

Lieza Nova wrote:
Holy verbosity, Batman...


At least half of this novel doesn't even pertain to what I wrote, so I'm not going to bother with it.  It also contradicts a lot of what you've said in earlier posts, which is something that I don't deal with on general principle.  I see no point in arguing with someone who can't even figure out what their own position is.

If you want to feel superior to the rest of us, because you can drop a few names and continually remind people of the work you've done, have at it.  I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you, as I find the practice to be utterly classless. 

My body of work speaks for itself.

Good.

I do not do this to feel superior. How on earth is being a fit model being superior? I mentioned the top models simply to show the OP in the VS post that there are some moments where you get to glimpse the stuff she appeared to want.

As I have said to Tony; I have no interest in showing off. I am simply telling people how some pro models earn a living. And most of it is journeyman stuff. In the VS thread where you first attacked me it was entirely relevant to give my testimony as someone who earned their living as a lingerie model. Nothing to boast about it was just fit. But it pays.

Neither have I contradicted myself. If you have an example; cite it specifically so I can clarify rather than attempt to simply launch a personal attack.

I have not criticised your port or you; and you HAVE attempted a pissing match with me through personal attack. I shall not retaliate as you are correct that would be classless. At no point have I attacked anyone personally - unless it is a groundless attack on me  If what I have to say is not of interest to you simply ignore it. I write a lot to give my insights; and I write quickly. If it is of no interest or too much of a pain to read please just ignore it. I have given my thoughts about what you wrote and given it some thought and effort into replying; I can't see that that shows anything disrespectful. In my opinion Tony is far from correct. And I have explained to him over many threads with citations and examples of other models here and my own experience why that is. If you think citing my experience of being a bog standard journeyman model is boastful because it differs from your own then that concerns me because I was not. I was merely attempting to show how it is possible to earn a living and many of us do. true; you can't be a fit model in a city where there is no fashion district but like many jobs you have to go where the work is if you want to do it professionally. I have moved all around the world to go where the work is in all my professional interests. And if you don't want to earn money at it fine: then I don't have a problem with it - but suggesting that somehow we are mercenary because we earn money at it is simply not nice.

Eliza C wrote:
I use myself as an example precisely because I AM a journeyman llama and have done the whole breadth of llamaling work; with the possible exception of the tiny narrow and competitive field you consider as llamaling. So that is why I have more of a clue about how journeyman llamas make their living than you and Richard Avdeon put together would: you don't know what the fuck we do. My experience is NOT limited to fit, to fine art, to showroom to boutique to lifestyle magazine to hair salon to promo to performance etc etc. I have DONE the lot and made money at all of it; and so do a hell of a lot of my freinds and colleagues in some degree or other.

Again; I would relate it to any other industry; but here is one I know about.
The photographer has to shoot Frankie Dettori the jockey for a magazine. From this and the interview the journalist does; the assumption will be made that there are maybe only 100 jockeys like him around and that it is a minority sport in which only elite riders can make a living.

This assumption would of course be utter nonsense. Every ONE to FOUR of racehorses in the UK (25 000 or so) has a work rider. Some of those will be semi pro and amateur jockeys; a few hundred will be pro jumps jockeys, a few will do work riding as part of other equine duties, etc. The photographer hasn't a clue how big the industry is; or what goes on in the back room; let alone all the other affiliated equine and racing industry realted fields that emply getting on for half a million people in the UK alone and contribute a colossal amount to GDP.

So ...the work rider who DOES see all that would be entitled to come into a forum and bollock you for making stupid assesments based on your narrow experience.

So let's say a kid at school says he wants to be a jockey. Who would he best listen to; the photographer who shot Frankie Detorri , big shot celebrity photographer as he is, or the work rider? The work rider will give him all the realistic likely avenues he can work as a rider and get paid for it. No glamour unless he is very lucky; but he makes a living working with horses; and doesn't have to do it JUST because he loves them.

Because that is what myself and many other llamas do. We do the massive amount of work you apparently have no clue exists simply because YOU think we want to be Kate Moss and that's where your ambition is focussed. Well some of us have our feet placed more firmly on the ground and make a living. And we are legion.

Now I will NOT go away Tony until you stop trolling these forums putting girls down based on comparing us with top fashion girls and saying you can get them for free and that we are a load of wannabes that haven't a clue and are unreliable and should work for bigshots like you for free. FUCK that; I am not having it; and I have the support of plenty of other girls I assure you.

The best shooters don't pay because the third party does.

And we DON'T and cannot all ride Frankel in a race; and don't need to or aspire to just to work as a work rider/groom in racing.

You have NO CLUE what llamas do for a living - I have cited fit as one small part; and there are other fields I know and have worked in; and know many other llamas that have too. I don't know things like glamour but that is another field open. But I know a damn sight more than you do about how to make a living as a journeyman llama.

Now; if you wonder why my tone is harsh it is because you CONSTANTLY imply that I am boasting; or lying.
As I have already stated; there is little to boast about being a fit llama. We are the backroom girls. If I wanted to boast I would choose somehwere else in which to do it where I have a far larger audience than these threads. The truth is it is just trying to share my experience so people like you realise we often can't work tf because it would mean sacrificing paid work. Maybe not as glamorous as shooting; but it pays bills and still has a lot of job satsicfaction. I know it has also helped other girls.
The second is that I am lying. I am putting a stop to that crap once and for all here and now and calling you out. IF you believe that; put your money where your mouth is. Care to wager? How about $1000? Come on....do it because I can easily prove my work record and tax paid on AP slips. I can also prove easily all the other experience across a wide range of llamaling from boutique shows to fine art at Art institutions. NOW. Either desist from these spurious implications; or place your bets. Put up; or shut up.

The third crit is the 'outlier' one. This is one that I do not consider a personal attack and it is reasonable. Perhaps my experience is not typical of the 'average' MM llama. But it is certainly typical of many. I have however PROVED this to you in past threads by showing you the many fit llamas on MM - including the Vivienne Westwood girl. Then in the last thread I showed you a Victioria Secret 5ft 2in bra fit llama. And in past threads dozens more. Also dozens more shorter llamas making a living from fashion from fit to print that are not 6ft tall 00; and that is without going through all the hundreds of outsize girls. They have told you too. If you do NOT wish to shoot them because you want a 6ft llama that is your perogative; but don't you DARE tell us we cannot make a living because many of us do; or dare say we are unreliable etc. yes; many are: but they are easily avoided with a bit of common sense.

So there are lots of us just here; and the vast majority of fit llamas don't actually have to be: they are employed; on the payroll. Don't always need the extra work from photographers. So while it may be reasonable to suggest my evidence may be an outlier; the truth is I have provided ample evidence it is NOT.

Yes; I agree with you and Tiffany there are also thousands of ports where the 'model' is in cuckoo land. There are also thousands of ports from photographers who shot a wedding three times (badly) and wants to CHARGE llamas to shoot them. There are also thousands where the photographer is just wanting to shoot girls with their boobs out for fun; and again EXPECT the llama to pay!!! There are also photographers who are proper creeps and we have all had expereince of them. So WHERE are the threads with llamas judging ALL MM photographers by these people?

So. Either you accept my testimony; and at least see it as a balance to your view even if you do not agree; or back up your allegatuions that I am a liar. But I warn you; I have already made peope here who called me a liar look very foolish when I delivered the proof re my academic work.


What you are NOT doing is trying to shut me up calling me a liar and accusing me of boasting. That is ad hominem and the sign of a bankrupt argument. It is also a low and false claim. My interest is only to stop the degrading attacks on all MM llamas because of a few flakes from photographers who are trying to get something for nothing from the very inexperienced wannabes they then judge us all by. AND to help other llamas realise WHERE to gain satisfactory paid employment in llamaling because I have a wide range of professional expereince at the journeyman level. And; not to rely on photographers because they generally don't pay if they are professionals UNLESS it is their personal project. The third party does. And that is something I think probably we can agree on.

Now. The last thread we locked horns in was the VS thread. How was it NOT relevant my testimony when I made a living mainly as a fit llama for the best lingerie fashion house in the business? It wasn't a boast - I was just trying to give her a potential realistic route biut told her she may have to widen her traget to other lingerie companies and look at fit not print. TWO of my friends were fit llamas before me for other lingerie companies too; and that was in a small academic circle of friends: so that should give you an indication that it is a fairly common job. And yes; I'd tell Richard Avedon the same but I would think he'd already know about fit llamas because Lauren Hutton started as one: yes; EVEN Vogue employed them.
http://dianavreeland.com/page/posts/op/read/id/114

Using myself AND others as an example doesn't work for YOU because your mind appears so narrow it is unwilling to see any testimony as anything but a lie or a boast because it contradicts your apparent agenda.

Wow... you are really fired up.    Nothing you've said really addresses my basic points.   MM is largely a site for amateur llamas and photographers with a few working full time pros.   Are there non agency standard llamas who make money here, I would think so but when real agency  struggle to get their llamas work with their connections to advertising agencies and magazines and designers and companies.   That you would think llamas who aren't listed and who aren't agency standard would make enough to live on by being here baffles me.

Companies and real world clients don't have time to research or vet llamas from sites like omp and MM.   They go to agencies.   Those that try and book llamas from sites like this one or Facebook are usually disappointed.   I know a women who had 18 confirmed llamas for a new magazine deal from FB where two llamas actually showed.   If you know working Fit llamas or women who make a living by booking non nude work from MM, wonderful.   Then ignore me because I am full of shi%.   So its clear, I have and will pay llamas but I don't want to work with llamas who only value what a project pays and my money.   Frankly I don't give a crap over if you were a Fit llama and who've met.   I am just tired of you yapping about it all the time and the constant name dropping.   

As for shutting you up.   Nobody on earth can stop you.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Wow... you are really fired up.    Nothing you've said really addresses my basic points.   MM is largely a site for amateur models and photographers with a few working full time pros.   Are there non agency standard models who make money here, I would think so but when real agency  struggle to get their models work with their connections to advertising agencies and magazines and designers and companies.   That you would think models who aren't listed and who aren't agency standard would make enough to live on by being here baffles me.

Companies and real world clients don't have time to research or vet models from sites like omp and MM.   They go to agencies.   Those that try and book models from sites like this one or Facebook are usually disappointed.   I know a women who had 18 confirmed models for a new magazine deal from FB where two models actually showed.   If you know working Fit models or women who make a living by booking non nude work from MM, wonderful.   Then ignore me because I am full of shi%.   So its clear, I have and will pay models but I don't want to work with models who only value what a project pays and my money.   Frankly I don't give a crap over if you were a Fit model and who've met.   I am just tired of you yapping about it all the time and the constant name dropping.   

As for shutting you up.   Nobody on earth can stop you.

yes I am fired up. I may be long winded in your opinion but I have taken massive and unwarranted personal attack here.
Constantly for example you have suggested that I 'claim' to know models and I 'cliam' to have done this or that . As though I am a liar. Unecessary and easily disproved: but of course you haven't got the balls to bet on it have you?


Now just think...you have mentioned that you know top fashion models. I have NEVER once doubted that you have told the truth. You may not be; but I always assume that grown ups engaged in proper debate neither lie nor insult one another. And impling that my testimony is a lie because you cannot undermine it any other way; or others suggesting I am attention seeking (which I can just as easily prove wrong) are pathetic attempts to devalue what I am saying.

I am NOT name dropping - where have I done it in this thread? I only did it in the other to show those that thought fit modelling was for us low lifes - it has the odd glamorous moment. So yes I mentioned one I did runway with. ONE. You have kept saying that you know top models but have FAILED to cite one. Not that I doubt you; but you did mention that you knew a lot.

You are nothing but a negative mysogenistic  determined to put model mayhem models down and these are the only threads you ever contribute to.

Now. I have said MANY TIMES but it is failing to get through to you that 99% of the fashion industry from boutiques to students to small designers to even larger fashion houses DO NOT have the budget to employ agency models for everything. I have told you ; as has my partner who is a small designer, that there is simply NOT the budget but models are still needed for a variety of activities from fit to showroom to event modelling of the garments; and not even advertisements and editorial  in small magazines. Fashion houses are not going to employ agency models as fit and there are at least as many fit models as editorial models and the work is more regular. Not highly paid; but regular. So there is plenty of such work for freelance models who make the effort IF they are in the right area to find it. To sneer at us because we don't do much photography disgusts me.

You ONLY know and aspire to editorial fashion photography and by your own admission are not yet a professional in that. I can't see why you wouldn't be able to but I take your word for it.

I have cited you dozens of models here ; and other models have come forward that stand as testimony to your claims that MM is mianly for amateurs, Even if it is; that gives you NO right to suggest we all are. And it doesn't take much to sort the wheat from the chaff or see that there are thousands of professional model ports here far more high flying than those of us who just do the journeymen stuff. You don't look at them because you seek models for free and end up with the moneygrabbers and the unreliable in the end anyway. Pay peanuts get monkeys.

As for your insults ...well as someone else put it that is classless. All arguments that resort to personal attack when confronted with evidence are.


If you are tired of me yapping then desist coming to the model coloquy forums telling us we are a bunch of amateurs. As I said; what the hell are you doing here then?

You are difficult to ignore when you keep bnaging the same drum and will not accept that there are many models here of all kinds; including agency girls. While you keep saying we are all amateurs and wannabes you will keep getting a piece of my mind.