sublime LightWorks wrote:
Point is its your "guess". Nothing more. You're assuming something with no actual facts. In other words you have even less info than the rumor sites.  And FYI, Sony is in the business of selling those sensor chips. Canon is not. So you aren't going to see anything they have under wraps.

Fact is they did produce and show a 120Mpix sensor. Fact is you have no idea what it's based on.
Latest rumor is this 46Mpix is a different sensor technology and design. But that's all rumor too. You don't know.  I don't know. But we'll see. So let's get off the guessing game and pull for all makers and R&D to design and build better stuff. Then we all benefit from it.

Right now I'm a Canon 7D and 5D3 shooter who also owns a Phase One and a Hasselblad 500 with some Carl Zeiss glass I inherited from my dad. Frankly I would like to have something like the D800 from Canon so I can dump the Phase One and just go with my large collection of L glass.

Yes, we are all guessing but there is a different between educated guessing and guessing out of the blue.  If Canon has new sensors design, it would be on the 5DIII and 6D already.   Canon claimed that the 5DIII and the 6D are both new sensors.  But they are both from same 7 years old architecture base with minor twist here and there.  This is why we still see the shadow noise and banding.

  I do hope Canon comes out with a new sensor design and it can put out a 46MP camera.  I am not sure which Canon lenses can resolve that though.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
Yes, we are all guessing but there is a different between educated guessing and guessing out of the blue.  If Canon has new sensors design, it would be on the 5DIII and 6D already.

That might be an educated guess in your mind (to justify the guessing), but in fact it isn't. It's just a guess. An educated guess would be based on something more concrete than more guesswork.

The truth is ... It's just a guess and canon may indeed have some amazing new tech that they decided to keep back for whatever reason, or that wasn't ready. Or a multitude of other reasons.

Or they may not.

And none of us has any idea in the slightest.

This guesswork is just an expression of negative bias, presented as educated to add weight.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
Canon claimed that the 5DIII and the 6D are both new sensors.  But they are both from same 7 years old architecture base with minor twist here and there.  This is why we still see the shadow noise and banding.

There's hardly any 6d files out there, so that is a guess too. We've got very little idea what the 6d is capable of.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
I am not sure which Canon lenses can resolve that though.

Of course you're not. I presume no one outside Canon does. Why not take a guess though?

All your guesses may prove to be correct, but the point is that they are guesses and no more educated than anyone elses, no matter how much you would like people to believe they are.

R_Marquez wrote:
People, don't feed the trolls.

Yes. You're right. Apologies.

Karl Blessing wrote:

I think the same was said about 14-16mp. (or 8-10, etc)

Yup - and 98% of photographers don't need that either!

All hail the thumbnail.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

Yes, we are all guessing but there is a different between educated guessing and guessing out of the blue.  If Canon has new sensors design, it would be on the 5DIII and 6D already.   Canon claimed that the 5DIII and the 6D are both new sensors.  But they are both from same 7 years old architecture base with minor twist here and there.  This is why we still see the shadow noise and banding.

  I do hope Canon comes out with a new sensor design and it can put out a 46MP camera.  I am not sure which Canon lenses can resolve that though.

None of us has enough information to make an educated guess!

Phil Drinkwater wrote:
That might be an educated guess in your mind (to justify the guessing), but in fact it isn't. It's just a guess. An educated guess would be based on something more concrete than more guesswork.

The truth is ... It's just a guess and canon may indeed have some amazing new tech that they decided to keep back for whatever reason, or that wasn't ready. Or a multitude of other reasons.

Or they may not.

And none of us has any idea in the slightest.

This guesswork is just an expression of negative bias, presented as educated to add weight.


There's hardly any 6d files out there, so that is a guess too. We've got very little idea what the 6d is capable of.


Of course you're not. I presume no one outside Canon does. Why not take a guess though?

All your guesses may prove to be correct, but the point is that they are guesses and no more educated than anyone elses, no matter how much you would like people to believe they are.

the difference is this.  I shoot both Nikon and Canon and from outside, I see Canon hasn't done much for the past few years.  If Canon has new sensor technology design, it would already announced long ago.  Why?  Marketing!  Get people to believe in your product and people will wait for the new thing to come out.

   Few years back.  Canon users were laughing at Sony's sensor.  Now, it is reverse.  If Canon has new sensor technology, wouldn't you think they already announced it? 

  Look at Sony's Exmor.  Look at how much Sony put on advertising it.

Same way with Fuji's Super CCD at that time.  At one point, Canon was also advertising heavily on its sensor.

  There is a road map  that companies follow.  From the road map, the last two years, canon was concentrating on chasing RED.

  Anyway, show me a list of Canon's latest patent on Sensor technology?

excluding this one:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/pate … ed-sensor/

As I said before.  Canon can definitely put out higher MP count on FF sensor.  This isn't the problem.  The problem is, DR and shadow noise.  Canon's current technology won't allow improving DR and shadow noise.  So, for Canon to have a new Sensor technology, it needs new Sensor technologies and new processor engine (not the same Digi).

Another thing.  If Canon does come out with 46MP camera, I am pretty sure it won't be below $5K.  If Canon management do think it competes with MF, it probably will price like one too.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

the difference is this.  I shoot both Nikon and Canon and from outside, I see Canon hasn't done much for the past few years.  If Canon has new sensor technology design, it would already announced long ago.  Why?  Marketing!  Get people to believe in your product and people will wait for the new thing to come out.

   Few years back.  Canon users were laughing at Sony's sensor.  Now, it is reverse.  If Canon has new sensor technology, wouldn't you think they already announced it? 

  Look at Sony's Exmor.  Look at how much Sony put on advertising it.

Same way with Fuji's Super CCD at that time.  At one point, Canon was also advertising heavily on its sensor.

  There is a road map  that companies follow.  From the road map, the last two years, canon was concentrating on chasing RED.

  Anyway, show me a list of Canon's latest patent on Sensor technology?

excluding this one:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/pate … ed-sensor/

As I said before.  Canon can definitely put out higher MP count on FF sensor.  This isn't the problem.  The problem is, DR and shadow noise.  Canon's current technology won't allow improving DR and shadow noise.  So, for Canon to have a new Sensor technology, it needs new Sensor technologies and new processor engine (not the same Digi).

Another thing.  If Canon does come out with 46MP camera, I am pretty sure it won't be below $5K.  If Canon management do think it competes with MF, it probably will price like one too.

The rumor site said that it was new sensor technology!  It also said they were concentrating on improved dynamic range.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

The rumor site said that it was new sensor technology!  It also said they were concentrating on improved dynamic range.

I know what the rumors said.  There are also a lot of other rumors about Canon as well.  My point is.  I do not believe it until I see it.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

I know what the rumors said.  There are also a lot of other rumors about Canon as well.  My point is.  I do not believe it until I see it.

But you keep making educated guesses.   

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
I know what the rumors said.  There are also a lot of other rumors about Canon as well.  My point is.  I do not believe it until I see it.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
But you keep making educated guesses.   

Exactly.  I don't think he gets that.  His info/guesses are on less footing than the rumor sites.

Frankly, I don't care.  I ordered a 1Dx today from Best Buy as I was able to use a Rewards member discount of 12% on it.  I'll keep my 7D and my 5D3 which replaced my 5D2 (which replaced my 40D).  They have roles in my work, as does the PhaseOne.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

the difference is this.  I shoot both Nikon and Canon and from outside, I see Canon hasn't done much for the past few years.  If Canon has new sensor technology design, it would already announced long ago.  Why?  Marketing!  Get people to believe in your product and people will wait for the new thing to come out.

   Few years back.  Canon users were laughing at Sony's sensor.  Now, it is reverse.  If Canon has new sensor technology, wouldn't you think they already announced it? 

  Look at Sony's Exmor.  Look at how much Sony put on advertising it.

Same way with Fuji's Super CCD at that time.  At one point, Canon was also advertising heavily on its sensor.

  There is a road map  that companies follow.  From the road map, the last two years, canon was concentrating on chasing RED.

  Anyway, show me a list of Canon's latest patent on Sensor technology?

excluding this one:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/pate … ed-sensor/

As I said before.  Canon can definitely put out higher MP count on FF sensor.  This isn't the problem.  The problem is, DR and shadow noise.  Canon's current technology won't allow improving DR and shadow noise.  So, for Canon to have a new Sensor technology, it needs new Sensor technologies and new processor engine (not the same Digi).

Another thing.  If Canon does come out with 46MP camera, I am pretty sure it won't be below $5K.  If Canon management do think it competes with MF, it probably will price like one too.

Lol as before really. All of that complete guesswork is just an expression of negative bias dressed up as an educated guess.

This is a rumour. However at least it's based on something more concrete than "I think therefore it is" and then given another title to make it seem more authoritative. They, at least, are honest about what it is.

Phil Drinkwater wrote:
This is a rumour. However at least it's based on something more concrete than "I think therefore it is" and then given another title to make it seem more authoritative. They, at least, are honest about what it is.

I am curious, what is it based on?

Phil Drinkwater wrote:
I really can't be bothered any more.

And I shouldn't feed the ...

For the record, I understand your point.  I just think the 46mp rumor is just a bunch of huff and puff.  On this one, I don't think anyone really knows anything.  I think it is all just speculation, both the people here and the rumor sites.

So my post wasn't an attack on you.

Phil Drinkwater wrote:
Lol as before really. All of that complete guesswork is just an expression of negative bias dressed up as an educated guess.

This is a rumour. However at least it's based on something more concrete than "I think therefore it is" and then given another title to make it seem more authoritative. They, at least, are honest about what it is.

Phil,

  From many of your posts, it is clear to me that you are Canon lover.  Nothing wrong with that. 
 
  From my point of view, I don't care if it is Canon or Nikon since I use both.  I do see Canon is lacking in Sensor Department and I don't see it is going to have any new Sensor design anytime soon. But to you and some Canon loyalist, Canon already has some new sensor design simply because it is the brand that you prefer.  There is no proof or any indication that Canon comes out with new sensor technology, not even any patent.
   
  When someone love or have loyalist to certain brand, it is very highly likely that their judgement and bias toward that particular brand.

  I remember 5DIII rumor, people were saying that the 5DIII will have 30MP+ with highest DR and it will do this and that.. Guess we already know about the 5DIII's DR.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
From my point of view, I don't care if it is Canon or Nikon since I use both.  I do see Canon is lacking in Sensor Department and I don't see it is going to have any new Sensor design anytime soon.

I happen to agree with that as well.  Nikon has managed to pass Canon in sensor development.  I think Canon's engineers are working on new things, but I do think they have to deal with DR, high ISO, etc before they tackle a high density sensor.

My problem with this whole discussion is that the CR posts are rated CR1.  That means they have little confidence in them.  By the same token, I don't think anyone here has anymore information.  I see this thread is fun musing, which I happen to enjoy.  I just don't think any of it is based on speculation.

That having been said, I totally agree, I don't think a 46mp camera is in the wings, but I do think that, at some point, Canon will come out with a higher density camera.  I just have no idea what.

R_Marquez wrote:
People, don't feed the trolls.

I agree. A certain individual's ego here is just too sensitive to let it go. Good post!

ei Total Productions wrote:

I happen to agree with that as well.  Nikon has managed to pass Canon in sensor development.  I think Canon's engineers are working on new things, but I do think they have to deal with DR, high ISO, etc before they tackle a high density sensor.

My problem with this whole discussion is that the CR posts are rated CR1.  That means they have little confidence in them.  By the same token, I don't think anyone here has anymore information.  I see this thread is fun musing, which I happen to enjoy.  I just don't think any of it is based on speculation.

That having been said, I totally agree, I don't think a 46mp camera is in the wings, but I do think that, at some point, Canon will come out with a higher density camera.  I just have no idea what.

Yes, I agree.  It is also good for us as consumers..  .

R_Marquez wrote:
People, don't feed the trolls.

In this case the is self substaining. Thousands of post about basically the same subject... over.. and over.. and over again. An obsession really.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

But you keep making educated guesses.   

Meaning I did research and think through without brand loyalty.  When someone has this brand loyalty, that person tend to be bias and will accept or believe anything that would him/her feel good about the decision.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

Meaning I did research and think through without brand loyalty.  When someone has this brand loyalty, that person tend to be bias and will accept or believe anything that would him/her feel good about the decision.

Your educated guesses are no better than Canon rumors.  They might have contacts that give them information.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
Phil,

  From many of your posts, it is clear to me that you are Canon lover.  Nothing wrong with that. 
 
  From my point of view, I don't care if it is Canon or Nikon since I use both.  I do see Canon is lacking in Sensor Department and I don't see it is going to have any new Sensor design anytime soon. But to you and some Canon loyalist, Canon already has some new sensor design simply because it is the brand that you prefer.  There is no proof or any indication that Canon comes out with new sensor technology, not even any patent.
   
  When someone love or have loyalist to certain brand, it is very highly likely that their judgement and bias toward that particular brand.

  I remember 5DIII rumor, people were saying that the 5DIII will have 30MP+ with highest DR and it will do this and that.. Guess we already know about the 5DIII's DR.

Uh huh. You're completely brand neutral. That's right. I remember now.

Now who started the thread with this? Hmmm ..

"Good luck with that.  Canon aren't going to bring out the 46MP camera this year or next year.  The rumors is nothing more than Canon fanboyish dream so that they won't feel bad about the D800."

Yep. Sounds neutral lol!!

As it happens I think Nikon/Sony have done an amazing job with the sensor and it doesn't fuss me because I don't need it for my work. I also think canon have done an amazing job with af and camera handling.

Look. I don't want to "argue" any more. What I would ask is that people are fair with facts.

Phil Drinkwater wrote:
Uh huh. You're completely brand neutral. That's right. I remember now.

Now who started the thread with this? Hmmm ..

"Good luck with that.  Canon aren't going to bring out the 46MP camera this year or next year.  The rumors is nothing more than Canon fanboyish dream so that they won't feel bad about the D800."

Yep. Sounds neutral lol!!

As it happens I think Nikon/Sony have done an amazing job with the sensor and it doesn't fuss me because I don't need it for my work. I also think canon have done an amazing job with af and camera handling.

Look. I don't want to "argue" any more. What I would ask is that people are fair with facts.

Let's just agree that you and I have different opinion on how Canon currently stack up vs the competitor.  I think I am being pretty fair with the facts I know but obviously you do see it differently.  I am sure in time, we will see how Canon play out against the competitors.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
You think the people who own the medium format Hassy 30-50 megapixel cameras were just waiting for Canon to produce a comparable megapixel count so they could switch right over? Highly unlikely.

I have a feeling Hasselblad will do just fine regardless of what Canon, or any other dslr producer does.

Carl Zeiss Lenses beat out any Canon or Nikon optics, hands down!!

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
Let's just agree that you and I have different opinion on how Canon currently stack up vs the competitor.  I think I am being pretty fair with the facts I know but obviously you do see it differently.  I am sure in time, we will see how Canon play out against the competitors.

I don't think we do disagree, presuming we're talking facts. The d600 is a more competitive camera than the 6d. Canons AF is top notch and, while sensors are virtually the same at high iso, Canon is much poorer at low ISO. We will disagree on lenses possibly because our needs are different.

I have positive things to say about Nikon where it's deserved and not where it's not, as I see it. I have pointed out the flaws of Canon too as well as where they excel.

If you feel Canon don't excel *anywhere* then I'm afraid you are not being fair with the facts imo or aren't up to date with your information.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I don't know who does your contracting work but nails are usually hammered...not drilled.

(eye roll)

Yup, you caught me in a poorly phrased metaphor.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I don't know who does your contracting work but nails are usually hammered...not drilled.

(eye roll)

Yup, you caught me in a poorly phrased metaphor.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
Yes, we are all guessing but there is a different between educated guessing and guessing out of the blue.  If Canon has new sensors design, it would be on the 5DIII and 6D already.   Canon claimed that the 5DIII and the 6D are both new sensors.  But they are both from same 7 years old architecture base with minor twist here and there.  This is why we still see the shadow noise and banding.

  I do hope Canon comes out with a new sensor design and it can put out a 46MP camera.  I am not sure which Canon lenses can resolve that though.

Far from true and as I stated before Canon is a large company with different needs and products.  The 5D and new 6D are not the end all be all of the company.  Most of Canon technology developed goes into the other imaging equipment.  Six figure and up medical imaging equipment is far more important then a loss leader base Rebel.

Again I have no doubt Canon is working on much larger MP sensors, smaller sensors, and a whole host of other technology.  None of that means its headed to a consumer DSLR.

AJScalzitti wrote:

Far from true and as I stated before Canon is a large company with different needs and products.  The 5D and new 6D are not the end all be all of the company.  Most of Canon technology developed goes into the other imaging equipment.  Six figure and up medical imaging equipment is far more important then a loss leader base Rebel.

Again I have no doubt Canon is working on much larger MP sensors, smaller sensors, and a whole host of other technology.  None of that means its headed to a consumer DSLR.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 … inema.html

AJScalzitti wrote:
Far from true and as I stated before Canon is a large company with different needs and products.  The 5D and new 6D are not the end all be all of the company.  Most of Canon technology developed goes into the other imaging equipment.  Six figure and up medical imaging equipment is far more important then a loss leader base Rebel.

Again I have no doubt Canon is working on much larger MP sensors, smaller sensors, and a whole host of other technology.  None of that means its headed to a consumer DSLR.

No one said Canon can't come out with a 46MP 35mm sensor.  As a matter of fact, if Canon wants, they can produce a 120MP sensor.  However,  for the past two years, Canon has been aftering RED.  There is no proof or evident that Canon has new sensor that can improve on DR and reduce shadow noise.  Secondly, Canon hasn't refresh much of its EF lenses, especially the high quality prime lenses.

  To produce a new sensor design, that would involve 1. The architecture of sensor itself, 2. The processor.  These things take time and it would be anywhere between 1 year to two years for development.  Take another few months to a year or so for testing.  So, the total cycle you looking at 1. New sensor design and 2. testing.  These would take about 1 1/2 to two years minimum.  (I know the Rebel/XTi get replace every 12 months or earlier but those sensors aren't base on new architecture).

For the past 7 years, Canon's sensor's DR has always been between 11 to 11.9.   I have no reason to believe Canon can improve on DR (i.e. 13 or higher) base on current Canon's Sensor technology.

Canon is a big company but Sony is a bigger company when it comes to putting more money into R&D regarding digital Sensor.

The Rumor of Canon's 46MP comes right after the announcement of D800.  Not only it is a rumor with higher MP counts but later on, it also announced it has higher DR than current D800's sensor.   There is no proof that Canon has new sensor technology (no new patent), no new camera use any of the new sensor technology, etc.

Another thing.  If canon already has a 46MP and they are already testing it, I am sure Canon already announce it.  Look at the 1Dx and how long did Canon announce that thing before it reach production?  We also see a price jump in 5DIII and the new lenses, i.e. 28mm f2.8 IS, 24-70mm f2.8L II.   Since the 5DIII has MSRP at $3.5K, what price do you think Canon would put the 46MP at, $5K or $8k?

Canon has marketing genius department.  If Canon has new sensor that would give better DR, high ISO performance etc, I am sure we would be seeing advertisement of the new sensor already.  We see Sony's EXMOR everywhere these days.  We also see Sony's EXMOR R and then EXMOR RS and they are also patented.  Few years back, Fuji was advertising its Super CCD sensor left and right.

  Few months back, the president of Canon stepped down.  I am sure there was a reason for that.

  What I am saying is.  It is unlikely Canon will bring out a 46MP camera with better DR and reduce shadow noise than the D800 this year or next year.  At some point, Canon can and will bring out a high MP Camera that will surpass the D800's but it won't be this year or next year.  Maybe 2014,  who knows?  But by then, Sony also will be bringing out its new generation of sensor base on Exmor technology.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 … inema.html

Why are. You linking a 1D?  If you would like I could like a RadPro FM product sheet?  I think the small ones are under $100k these days, hence 6 figures

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
http://photorumors.com/2012/09/29/rumor … eries-eos/

The Rumor getting better and better.  If it is 1 series, it won't be competing with the D800.  The price along would be at minimum $7K.