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Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5,409
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
It would be interesting if a model was paid on "merit" (successful images) instead of just for showing up. Kinda like the REAL world of modelling...lots of "tests" and proven results before landing a paid gig. Here, a model "throws up" a couple cell-phone-like images and puts a "pay me" line in her Profile. And I guess the so-called "GWC's" must line up to pay it.

Hell, I would be willing to pay an amazing model that I KNEW could provide the skills for me. One that showed up enthused and invested in the concept. But, here on Mayhem it's pretty much of a 1:10 "crap shoot"...and the odds are pretty thin. That's why I lean more toward the "mature" models...to try to tip those odds in my favour.

I'm sure it's the same odds for models finding photographers for portfolio work, except the model isn't usually paying $50-120/hr for the risk.

There are just TOO MANY unproven "new" models...and I can't bring myself to afford the (proven) experienced "travel" models. I will not risk $50-120/hr on that kind of "maybe" deal. So, I continue to shoot "trades".

There are  models in the "REAL world" of modeling who come off the street and are booked in paid jobs before they even have a test shoot. They don't even have to shoot nude to do so.

Jan 08 13 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Dan K Photography wrote:
There are  models in the "REAL world" of modeling who come off the street and are booked in paid jobs before they even have a test shoot. They don't even have to shoot nude to do so.

I'm not talking about the one in a billion Cinderella story exceptions, I'm talking about the REAL world. wink

The fantasy stories of models you speak of are 16years old, 5'-10"+, weigh about 119lbs soaking wet, and constitute about .0000001% of the modelling world. (And likely remove their Mayhem profile as soon as they earn serious payment, if they ever had one to begin with).

And, not exactly what I'm looking for in the Glamour genre.

Jan 09 13 07:01 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eva Forte
Posts: 13
Phoenix, Arizona, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

The model's time and talent is valuable, just as the photographer's!!! If YOU want to create art, that does not mean that it is "art" for the model too. Personally, for me it is a huge turn off, if a photographer starts their port with "I don't pay models". For me it shows that they do not value my time, talent and no I will most likely not shoot with them.
Just my 2 cents...

Jan 09 13 07:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Kithos
Posts: 359
York, Pennsylvania, US


I have a good reason why I should be hired on my portfolio page. I have an invested interest in getting published and obtaining more exposure in my community through the photos that are taken of me.

I pay photographers for the same reasons photographers pay me: Getting better pictures and more exposure. If a model or photographer can't get that for you, or doesn't care, then don't pay them. After shooting for almost 13 years, I have seen many of my model colleagues think than can just show up with minimal makeup and energy, get paid, and then just move onto the next. These days there are so many girls who are Internet models and photographers willing to hire can pick and chose. Models should be offering some sort of professional incentive to set them apart from the masses. Unfortunately, there are few who wont adapt to the change and see that they should be an active participant in the images created. Then instead of seeing how they can change, they blame the economy for not getting any paid work.
Jan 09 13 07:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,604
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


r4u wrote:
Thank for your contris wink
Happy 2013 & take care

I love it. You create this shit storm of a thread, bail on it for two weeks, then come back with this response.

Classic.

Jan 09 13 07:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jessie Shannon
Posts: 2,004
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
I'm not talking about the one in a billion Cinderella story exceptions, I'm talking about the REAL world. wink

The fantasy stories of models you speak of are 16years old, 5'-10"+, weigh about 119lbs soaking wet, and constitute about .0000001% of the modelling world. (And likely remove their Mayhem profile as soon as they earn serious payment, if they ever had one to begin with).

And, not exactly what I'm looking for in the Glamour genre.

Being agency signed is not a fantasy story in the least.   Being in the top 5% of agency signed models maybe, but many do very well as far as paid bookings go. That is the real world market.  catalog, etc.   I don't think that is a Cinderella Story, in fact I think it's actually much much harder to make it as an Internet model doing it all on your own. 


Note that I am not in favor of paying brand new internet models with no track record and no experience.


What get's me is how many people seem to think (based on what I have seen looking through thousands of ports)  that being a pretty girl in a bra makes them a model.   You guys as photographers sell them on this idea, then they try to charge the next one and the next Photographer comes into public forums to bitch about it, but then turns around and tells the next girl the same thing........ and so on and so on.

Jan 09 13 07:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Eva Forte wrote:
The model's time and talent is valuable, just as the photographer's!!! If YOU want to create art, that does not mean that it is "art" for the model too. Personally, for me it is a huge turn off, if a photographer starts their port with "I don't pay models". For me it shows that they do not value my time, talent and no I will most likely not shoot with them.

Eva, I understand your point of view...but with some photographers it's not that we don't value your time as much as ours...it's that we ONLY value it as much as our own.
And equal "trade" of time and images.

And to some of us, it's not worth the "risk" of scheduling a paid shoot...because the models who are truly skilled are buried under a pile of unskilled amateurs that aren't interested in seriously "creating" anything except another dollar in their pocket. It's kinda like trying to find a needle in a haystack. In my area there are probably 10,000 "models" who want to "get paid" and probably about 100 with any REAL modelling skills that might be worth the $50-120/hr.

Jan 09 13 07:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Jessie Shannon wrote:
What get's me is how many people seem to think (based on what I see looking through millions of ports)  that being a pretty girl in a bra makes them a model.   You guys as photographers sell them on this idea, then they try to charge the next one and the next one comes into public forums to bitch about it, then turn around and tell the next girl the same thing and so on and so on.

LOL! Exactly!

Not -this- photographer. I actually value the "connection" and "skills", and I expect the "artistic investment"...and that's damned hard to find these days...I think because of exactly what you describe. The quick buck.

MM is "saturated" with "Models" who post a cellphone-esque portfolio, and the "GWC's" who are willing to pay them to just show up.

And the total "collaboration" consists of one or two "tweetlike" responses (limited to a 140 character attention span).

But, I still have faith that (someday) I will find my "Muse". wink And hopefully she will live in Sedona AZ! LOL! Then I might be happy to offer payment other than "trade" images.

Jan 09 13 07:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Koryn Locke wrote:
As a llama, after a certain point, the vast majority of the people contacting you for shoots have nothing to offer you in the way of images anymore. There will always be a few exceptions, but by and large, you just stop being able to benefit from shooting with the bulk of those who want to shoot you.

If, at that point, the llama is unable to start receiving financial compensation for her work, there is no longer a motivation to continue llamaing, or producing anything at all. As a result, llamas who have developed a large skill-set, strong portfolio and excellent work ethic will quit at the point when they COULD have been producing their best work --- and helping you to produce your best work.

This, completely. I hardly even shoot anymore, because people here would rather save a few shekels on a girl who has no idea what she's doing than to pay an experienced llama who actually shows up on time and ends up giving good images (me).

Jan 09 13 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

+1. And from my experience, Trained Ballet Dancers are the best, and DO make natural models. VERY intouch with their "presence" and "energy", and how it looks to an audience. Trained in constant (proper) hand and feet positioning...as it becomes "second-nature" to them.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

Jan 09 13 12:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,363
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


Dan K Photography wrote:
There are  llamas in the "REAL world" of llamaing who come off the street and are booked in paid jobs before they even have a test shoot. They don't even have to shoot nude to do so.

Hence the existence of MM where else would you get llamas nakkid.

Jan 09 13 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rainbow Candy
Posts: 118
Seattle, Washington, US


I have to say I appreciate this thread topic.

As an amateur model who decided she liked it as an art form, as creative expression, I really would prefer to get paid for explicit material, the kind you CANT post on MM, while still wanting to do TF for almost anything else.

Anything else other than explicit, including basic nudes and basic fetish/boudoir, I would gladly do TF for, so that I can build my skills in modeling and build up my network.

I read early on in this thread that Photographers need models MORE than we need them. I find that to be the opposite. If being a new face brings about it's perks and Photographers (as I have heard, correct me if I am wrong) would want to work with a new face, or even pay a new face sometimes, then I should have had more meetings with potential fellow artists! Artists like myself who would love to go and shoot and try to create some work! Even from the amateur photographers who are building up their skills! So I find that some models need photographers more than they need them, and in that case, I'm sorry, but I'm NOT paying YOU! That's going to be ALL Trade For - MY portfolio (maybe BOTH of our portfolios...? That would be the ideal situation!!)

smile Just my contribution.

-Aera
Jan 11 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,609
Los Angeles, California, US


So...you feel people should only make money doing things they hate?
Jan 11 13 09:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay llamas please!

Yes. Everything's value must be recognized. Even a trade of skill for time must have value to both sides, for it to be valid.

It sounds like you are trying to manipulate the market, by dictating the rules regarding when someone should be compensated monetarily.

Time itself has value, and that is what a lot of MM photographers recognize when they hire llamas.

Although it may not be the case in all situations, some llamas DO find themselves in situations where they have concurrent offers from different photographers.

All other things being equal, what do you think gets the slice of the llama's time? TFP or paid?

If you don't recognize the value in a person spending some of his/her short llamaing time on this planet, with someone that WANTS/NEEDS him/her to llama for a photo session, then why pay for anything at all?

I am sure a lot of people that make a living selling photos, paintings, sculptures, music, and literature disagree with your characterization of art.

Jan 12 13 05:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jolly Rauncher
Posts: 1,516
Seattle, Washington, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

+100

by the way, how is not paying models working out for you so far OP?

Jan 12 13 07:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


MnPhoto wrote:
Time itself has value, and that is what a lot of MM photographers recognize when they hire models.

Believe me, there are many models who don't recognize the value of the photographer's time!

In a typical local "trade" shoot, I believe it takes the model -maybe- 2hrs to get ready for the shoot and another 1/2hr to travel to the location. Yet, I hear many models complain about ONLY receiving 5-10 finished images (probably 3-4hrs editing) from the "trade".

How many hours does a model expect the photographer to spend "pay" (in editing time) to create the number of finished images in "trade" of -her- 2.5hrs invested?

It is quite common here to read about "new" models complaining they want ALL the images from the shoot. For me, in a typical 2hr shoot, that would require editing about 150 images...or about a weeks worth of editing...in exchange for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time.

So, I feel my 15-20 finished edited images is MORE than fair "payment" for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time invested getting ready for "our" shoot. The time we spend together at the shoot...is a wash of equal time. And I sure don't feel I owe the model for her time spent the day before at her Pilates class.

Jan 12 13 07:14 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Raven-Lily
Posts: 77
Eastbourne, England, United Kingdom


obviously you need to establish the level of model you are talking about.

You could be talking about any level, if they are new like me, then i dont expect payment. Buts its nice if someone offers.

if say you booked a model like a male model friend of mine, who earns £5,000 a shoot simply because his photos end up all over the world, he has no idea where they will end up and he also cant leave the house without being recognised and hounded by teenage girls. He is paid that much simply for compensation for the other things he has to deal with when hes not physically shooting.

a lot of models need payment to cover costs such as gym memberships to keep their bodies looking good, they have to buy their own clothes, shoes, make up for shoots (not many models get paid enough in their regular jobs to cover these costs)

What if everyone stopped paying photographers for their weddings, or their baby portraits? simply because its an 'art'
Jan 12 13 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rainbow Candy
Posts: 118
Seattle, Washington, US


Raven-Lily wrote:
obviously you need to establish the level of model you are talking about.

You could be talking about any level, if they are new like me, then i dont expect payment. Buts its nice if someone offers.

if say you booked a model like a male model friend of mine, who earns £5,000 a shoot simply because his photos end up all over the world, he has no idea where they will end up and he also cant leave the house without being recognised and hounded by teenage girls. He is paid that much simply for compensation for the other things he has to deal with when hes not physically shooting.

a lot of models need payment to cover costs such as gym memberships to keep their bodies looking good, they have to buy their own clothes, shoes, make up for shoots (not many models get paid enough in their regular jobs to cover these costs)

What if everyone stopped paying photographers for their weddings, or their baby portraits? simply because its an 'art'

+1

I agree with this statement. We invest in our clothing and our makeup, and it's difficult to travel sometimes. So we put out and sometimes break our banks to create wonderful art and express ourselves with what will hopefully be the right partner in art/buisiness. And sometimes, that person we work with, we regret working with after it's all said and done. So certainly I think perhaps balance is needed. Negotiations and figuring out what is fair trade, what is fair payment is also what needs to happen.
But a model doesn't want to walk in and wait until after the photos are done and the Photographer looks at them all, assesses his amount of work and 'deducts' his amount of time from the amount of time the model put in to come up with a payment. She wants to be paid upfront to ensure she gets paid. So she doesn't get ripped of, as so many of us have (from what I've heard, but the smart model knows how not to get ripped off, one would assume)

So I think that this is something that the model and photographer needs to really, really assess, and it isn't really anyone's business what goes on in terms of payment or no payment, or item trade for work.

As long as everyone's happy, who gives a damn? But if someone isn't happy well then... oops. You can't please them all.

Jan 12 13 09:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Luminos
Posts: 6,057
Columbia, Maryland, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

If there's no commercial issue, then paying the model is pretty much her only reward.

Jan 12 13 09:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Honey Stinger
Posts: 6,328
Madison, Wisconsin, US


This thread. What a fuck-ton of nonsense.
Jan 12 13 09:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
optimistic negatives
Posts: 83
Wichita, Kansas, US


Aera Crescent wrote:
+1

I agree with this statement. We invest in our clothing and our makeup, and it's difficult to travel sometimes. So we put out and sometimes break our banks to create wonderful art and express ourselves with what will hopefully be the right partner in art/buisiness. And sometimes, that person we work with, we regret working with after it's all said and done. So certainly I think perhaps balance is needed. Negotiations and figuring out what is fair trade, what is fair payment is also what needs to happen.
But a model doesn't want to walk in and wait until after the photos are done and the Photographer looks at them all, assesses his amount of work and 'deducts' his amount of time from the amount of time the model put in to come up with a payment. She wants to be paid upfront to ensure she gets paid. So she doesn't get ripped of, as so many of us have (from what I've heard, but the smart model knows how not to get ripped off, one would assume)

So I think that this is something that the model and photographer needs to really, really assess, and it isn't really anyone's business what goes on in terms of payment or no payment, or item trade for work.

As long as everyone's happy, who gives a damn? But if someone isn't happy well then... oops. You can't please them all.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, you may have gone out to spend money on gym memberships and clothes and makeup, but  has spent $10,000 on their cameras, lenses, and lighting.

Count that up to $20,000-30,000 if that includes studio space and a photography-related education.

Jan 12 13 09:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Misty R H
Posts: 471
Anaheim, California, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
"How many hours does a model expect the photographer to spend "pay" (in editing time) to create the number of finished images in "trade" of -her- 2.5hrs invested?

It is quite common here to read about "new" models complaining they want ALL the images from the shoot. For me, in a typical 2hr shoot, that would require editing about 150 images...or about a weeks worth of editing...in exchange for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time.

So, I feel my 15-20 finished edited images is MORE than fair "payment" for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time invested getting ready for "our" shoot. The time we spend together at the shoot...is a wash of equal time. And I sure don't feel I owe the model for her time spent the day before at her Pilates class.

Models usually want all of the images because often the model likes different pictures than the photographer because they are looking at different things. The photographer is looking at lighting, composition etc.  The model is looking at her/his facial expressions, how flattering the pose is, wardrobe malfunctions.  I would be fine with getting a limited number of the pictures as long as I get to choose with ones I get. With the photographers approval of course.

Jan 12 13 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Daniel Pierce
Posts: 629
Burbank, California, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

A stick in a hornet's nest...

Jan 12 13 09:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,309
New York, New York, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Believe me, there are many models who don't recognize the value of the photographer's time!

In a typical local "trade" shoot, I believe it takes the model -maybe- 2hrs to get ready for the shoot and another 1/2hr to travel to the location. Yet, I hear many models complain about ONLY receiving 5-10 finished images (probably 3-4hrs editing) from the "trade".

How many hours does a model expect the photographer to spend "pay" (in editing time) to create the number of finished images in "trade" of -her- 2.5hrs invested?

It is quite common here to read about "new" models complaining they want ALL the images from the shoot. For me, in a typical 2hr shoot, that would require editing about 150 images...or about a weeks worth of editing...in exchange for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time.

So, I feel my 15-20 finished edited images is MORE than fair "payment" for the model's 2.5hrs of pre-shoot time invested getting ready for "our" shoot. The time we spend together at the shoot...is a wash of equal time. And I sure don't feel I owe the model for her time spent the day before at her Pilates class.

It is nice to be quoted, but preferable to be quoted in your entirety. This way an argument doesn't ensue over something that is being taken out of context.

If you quote my post in its entirety (not one sentence) you will see that I am addressing the aspect of the OP's post regarding photographers, which are looking for individuals to spend time modeling for them.

Regardless of whether the person trying to fill the role of "photographer" or "model" is qualified, the question was about putting value on someone's time (modeling) or artistic talent (photographer).

Compensation exists in different forms: money, knowledge (teaching), experience (practice), association (celebrity sessions), or portfolio images (prints or files).

Some people choose to pay money, because they need a subject. Once the session is complete the model is on her way, and expects nothing else in return.

Others offer trades for compensation (as listed above).

If the individual wishes to pursue freelance modeling as a career (or simply better compensation rates), then s/he will shoot a lot of tests and trades in order to respectively, gain experience and acquire images so the best marketing tool (a quality portfolio) improves quickly.

If the individual is pursuing freelance modeling as a quick way to make some money, then s/he will drop rates during every potential negotiation.

Regardless of how you feel about yourself as a photographer, your only option is to accept the terms or pass.

Jan 12 13 09:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Raven-Lily wrote:
a lot of models need payment to cover costs such as gym memberships to keep their bodies looking good, they have to buy their own clothes, shoes, make up for shoots (not many models get paid enough in their regular jobs to cover these costs)

I would only pay for your time for my shoot...at a fair price.
For myself, that would be in "trade" images.

If others want to pay in shoes and gym memberships that's totally up to them.

Jan 12 13 09:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Natural Means
Posts: 543
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
This thread. What a fuck-ton of nonsense.

Please keep your post brief and to the point in future! :-)

Jan 12 13 09:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kyle T Edwards
Posts: 418
St Catharines, Ontario, Canada


As a new photographer, I've found that paid models are a godsend!  I know everyone says "shoot friends and family at first", but I have two choices: do shoots with my friends, where neither of us really know what we're doing, so I'm only learning by trial and error, and take a while to get good at this, or pay a model, rent a studio, get much better shots out of it, get pointers from experts (both from the models and the studio techs) and cut my learning curve exponentially.

Sure, one approach costs more up front than the other, no argument here.  However, from a business standpoint, there'll be a faster ROI, and it won't take as long before I can be the one charging for shoots.

So, with all that said, I have no problem paying a model.
Jan 12 13 10:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


Unless you have a client.   Paying llamas isn't a good business plan.   Sure it may mean having more reliable people but its not a smart short or long term business plan.   Photographers need to shoot all the time to keep their eye sharp and having to pay to practice can get very expensive very quickly.   If you want to shoot fashion or commercial work then get a few decent samples and hit up local agencies.   If your work isn't good enough to get free tests then paying llamas won't help you.   Paying is fair if you have a real commercial outlet or sell your work via stock or gallery but my guess is many here don't.   Paying llamas won't get you at some point llamas willing to pay you either.   

Paying llamas makes sense if you have a great location or wonderful MUA or outfit and you want a specific llama who won't trade with you.   However in most cases paying will only mean you have less cash in your wallet.   I have friends who act who do projects that pay little to nothing because they enjoy acting.   Seek out llamas like that.   There are plenty around.   This isn't too say how people should spend their cash.   I don't have  a few hundred to pay every llama I shoot.
Jan 12 13 11:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 579
Bothell, Washington, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

Well I generally only shoot TFCD but from now on I will pay models just to annoy you.





j/k

Jan 12 13 11:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Rainbow Candy
Posts: 118
Seattle, Washington, US


optimistic negatives wrote:

Just to play Devil's Advocate, you may have gone out to spend money on gym memberships and clothes and makeup, but  has spent $10,000 on their cameras, lenses, and lighting.

Count that up to $20,000-30,000 if that includes studio space and a photography-related education.

But he could sell images from TF Shoots if one agrees to that. Ideally, the Photographer and the Model should come up with their own set of unique agreements and stick to them, and be honest with one another about their expectations. I understand where you are coming from.
I am an artist aside from being an amateur model with little modeling experience (so excuse me for talking here..) So I spend money on pencils, water colors, paper, different weights of paper, and I went to college. Have I sold any of my artwork? No. But I'd like to be paid for modeling so I can continue to pay for supplies. Sure. But I digress.
The bottom line is, if the photographer feels he's spent MILLIONS AND MILLIONS (over exageration here) on equipment and education, and the model feels she's spending a lot of her time, effort, and money on other things to pursue her artistic endeavors in modeling, then they should, in my humbly inexperienced opinion, come to some sort of agreement.

-State Expectations
-Figure out rates (rather than the model charging flat rates, but some do and that's fine IMO)
-Be happy for the experience and continue to grow and improve

I don't see what the problem is here. The Photographer could open up his own studio, sell prints continuously for hundreds of dollars, whereas the model may not be able to sell anything! And the photographer may, in his agreement not share any bit of it. Some of my images may be sold for example, and all I got were 20 touched up images for my port! No cash payment! And that photographer could sell those images for 200 a pop! Plus continue to get paid memberships to his site to view my images!!! And I got nothing but 20 touched up images!
The Ideal situation would be that in the future I would be paid. But, these images were very important FOR MY PORTFOLIO (of which sadly I lost a huge amount of weight and so now they are no longer relevant to my port on MM.....)
So this photographer has 1000+ images of me that he can sell, put up as prints in his studio and sell for hundreds of dollars!! I did a ton of work for him, for 20 touched up images. He's making profit off of me, or could. It's life.

So, I completely understand your POV, and I hope people understand our POV, and that people can just come to some happy arrangements and be smart about what they sign. That's all. smile

Jan 13 13 01:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Aera Crescent wrote:
But he could sell images from TF Shoots if one agrees to that.

Yes, because the market for images of unknown internet models is so strong these days...

He could make millions! borat


/sarcasm




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 13 13 03:09 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


I deserve to be paid for this hobby because I invested money into it!
*smh*
Jan 13 13 04:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Damianne wrote:
I deserve to be paid for this hobby because I invested money into it!
*smh*

I have cookies smile

Jan 13 13 04:28 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

I have cookies smile

I have muffins!
Let's hang out.

Jan 13 13 04:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Damianne wrote:

I have muffins!
Let's hang out.

borat

Jan 13 13 04:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,363
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


Damianne wrote:
I deserve to be paid for this hobby because I invested money into it!
*smh*

I thought the idea of a hobby is not to make money but to pay for it.

Jan 13 13 04:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Grosz Csaba
Posts: 1
London, England, United Kingdom


This is a Joke. I am photographing ONLY PAYED MODELS. If you wanna be Uncle Bob who got Ok pictures don't pay, but the pictures will look like as your model looks. If you get confident, serious pro model, you get what you payed for.

If you want Mary Lu from your next door, who posing for you than go for it. But she is not a real model, BUT you have to spend from 6 hours at least 3 hours to direct them, instead of focus on your technic and lightnings.

If you want quality>>>>> you pay for it.
If you don't want >>>>> you risk every single time, don't.

150 pounds for a day, is not that hard to pay off once in every 2 months.

I am amateur and getting into the studio world, but when I pay for a model (who works for Yeburys) I know that, I only have to concentrate on my composition, technic, and lights because She is PRO. That will makes your job Look Like a Pro

Chucks Photography
Jan 13 13 05:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


GChucks Photography wrote:
This is a Joke. I am photographing ONLY PAYED MODELS. If you wanna be Uncle Bob who got Ok pictures don't pay, but the pictures will look like as your model looks. If you get confident, serious pro model, you get what you payed for.

If only that was true!

But sadly, paying a model on Mayhem (or Facebook, etc) is no guarantee of skill level. There are just way way way too many "wannabe's" that post a profile and expect payment for their time...yet have ZERO in the way of modelling training or creative ideas. They expect to just show up and get paid...and enough photographers are willing to pay for just that.

Jessie Shannon wrote:
What get's me is how many people seem to think (based on what I have seen looking through thousands of ports)  that being a pretty girl in a bra makes them a model.   You guys as photographers sell them on this idea, then they try to charge the next one and the next Photographer comes into public forums to bitch about it, but then turns around and tells the next girl the same thing........ and so on and so on.

This.

I have found about 10:1 "new" models are not in any way skilled "confident, serious pro models"...but are still somehow convinced they should be paid in cash. I get notices everyday for models who expect $50-120/hr...and who's work looks like a portfolio full of bad cellphone images. No thanks.

Not -ALL- "internet models" should be paid...except perhaps in test images. But, if you can throw up a few "modelling" images in a "portfolio" to get photographers to help pay for your shoes or Pilates class...more power to you! wink

Jan 13 13 08:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
- Aina -
Posts: 731
Redlands, California, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I would agree with you in the sense that not everyone desires monetary gain with what they do. While I haven't heard that "every work must be paid," I can say that some projects require monetary effort to get it to the level that YOU want to it.

There are very few photographers that I frequently work with for pure trade, with that said.

Jan 13 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Raven-Lily wrote:
a lot of models need payment to cover costs such as gym memberships to keep their bodies looking good, they have to buy their own clothes, shoes, make up for shoots (not many models get paid enough in their regular jobs to cover these costs)

None of us are responsible for someone else's expenses.

That's a recipe for disaster that only ends up as a pissing contest for who spends more. You bought a new pair of shoes? Great. I just bought a $275 battery grip. Pay me. See? It doesn't work...for either side.

When a photographer starts talking about "needing" to be paid because he's spent $20,000 on his equipment, everyone laughs. Rightly so. The amount someone spends on modeling/photography has no bearing whatsoever on one's value and whether one should be paid.

Jan 13 13 08:42 am  Link  Quote 
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