Orca Bay Images wrote:

Why is that phrase almost always misspelled?

Because spell check wont catch it and most folks dont know the difference.

EbbysTouch wrote:
Just A Suggestion:
--Model Release completed before shoot even begins
--If you have an iPhone/iPad or Droid consider going paperless with your model release using  the Easy Release App
--Shoot and be deliberate with your shots, 400 frames is a lot unless she had a kazillion looks to be captured.
--Try giving 2 images per look(or something similar)
--place TRASH (the images you don't value) in the TRASH BIN
--Decide whether YOU are going to choose the finals or whether the model will choose from your final selections--get a system. Giving all the images is not beneficial to the model OR to you. ONLY show the best of the best.
--Give Jpegs. Convert.
--If someone cancels ...shake it off, move on. Next!


hope this helps.

^^ +1    and let me explain a bit further why everyone is telling you not to give out RAW files. Being you are new to photography in general, there is a good chance that you have never shot film in your lifetime. Back in the day the equivalent to a RAW file was the film negative. If one were to say shoot a roll of film (that was paid for), develop film (again with materials that are paid for), print prints (paid for), and then hand over the prints and the negatives to a model or anyone else, they are essentially giving their work away.

Now, this might be less common these days for some in a world where digital technologies have over saturated the market to the point where anyone can purchase a DSLR and call themselves a photographer, but there are those of us out there that take this stuff really seriously. You mentioned that you just want to shoot "pretty girls". I mean this with no disrespect, but to you and all of the GWC's on this site, please grow up!  It is pretty obvious that both you and the model are very new to shooting from your replies. I mean this with the best possible constructive criticism too when I say that the biggest mistake new photographers make is to undervalue their work. I am not sure what you do for a day job for example, but imagine if you went to work and did your job all week, and then your boss said "whoops, we're not going to pay you this week". This is the same deal with doing a photo shoot. While I understand that you are learning the craft of photography at this point, no one ever needs 400 images of themselves, and no photographer ever needs 400 images of the same look from a model either. If you are serious about learning photography, go take a couple workshops from reputable photographers that know what they are doing, or go take a couple classes at your local college to see if it is something that you are interested in doing. You will save a lot of time and effort for both you and models in the long run by having that experience.

In reply to your original post also, always get the release signed before the shoot starts. No release = no shoot simple as that. The number of images that you give a model should be 1 or 2 per look plain and simple as others have mentioned. Anything more unless it is completely mind blowing and amazing should be scratched as repetition does nothing for your port or your models port. and if the model comes back cold like that after everything was fine originally, it is not your fault, there are other political issues at play (ie. boyfriends, husbands, families, someone told her they didn't like the way she looked and she is too insecure with herself, she found religion and decided to stop modeling, etc..etc..etc.). In this case, simply thank her for her time and say next. There are a million and one people that want to "play model" just like there are a million and one people that want to "play photographer".   and I agree that it is also the photographers responsibility to convert the few images that they do give on trade so that a model can use them for his/her port. Just convert them to web res .jpg files unless you agree to provide physical tangible prints.

aside from this, go take some workshops or classes as I mentioned. It will get you a lot farther a lot faster. It will also save you many pitfalls and learning curves from the get go. good luck!

John Choi wrote:
My edited work is precious to me and I think of them as a gift to anyone who worked with me.  The unedited files I think of as basically trash that I want my models to look at for their benefit to improve their modeling skills.  Also, they may actually like some of those pics more than the ones I liked.  Who am I to say only the ones I like are the ones they'd like?  If they want a different picture to put on their portfolio, Id like them to pick and have me edit them.

Although a model can certainly improve by looking at the unusable files, I think it would help her more if you gave her some guidance and direction during the shoot and BEFORE you press the shutter.  There's nothing wrong with putting the camera down, walking over to her and gently delivering some specifics on how you think she could move, pose or emote to improve things.  If it's still not working for you, then go ahead and show her a shot from the LCD so she can see what's happening and give her ideas.. "See we were doing this? .. Let's try doing THIS instead..".  That should give you many more "keepers"..

And since you're a nice guy and like to give the model the option of choosing from proofs, you can also take your best ones (that you absolutely wouldn't mind being shown in her port as a representation of your work), batch them with a light opacity PROOF watermark and then let her choose from those on a proofing site.

I agree with the consensus also on handing out JPEGS! 

Stay positive and remember photography is a constant learning experience.  Take all your critiques, good or bad, with a grain of salt and learn from them.

~K

John Choi wrote:
I'm still relatively new to MM and also to fashion photography. But I've been doing it for over 6 months an have done quite a bit of shooting. Generally, I like to do a TF shoot where after I shoot with a model I give them a DVD or two of the entire shoot plus several edited photos. The number of edited photos varies but roughly it's about 2-5% depending on the number of images. For instance a typical shoot will have about 400 images and I will edit around 10-20 images. Furthermore, I usually will tell the model that if they like any of the non edited images, I'd be happy to edit or retouch a few of them. The images are in NEF format as I shoot with a Nikon camera.

Ok, so recently I shot a model and thought the shoot went great. When I emailed her some images she replied with "OMG I love these!"  So I was happy. We even scheduled a second shoot.

Then a week later she abruptly cancelled the shoot via text and wanted to know when she would receive the DVDs. This was about one week after the original shoot and I had already emailed her about 8 edited images. I told her I'd be happy to hand over the DVD if she meets me with a signed release which I gave her and forgot to get signed. I was planning on giving her the DVDs when we met for our shoot. An the tone of her texts were very cold and felt very different than previous correspondence.  We met a few days later and exchanged DVDs for release.

Now a few weeks later (original shoot was I think over a month ago) she texts me saying why can't she open the files. I advised her downloading a free software like Picasa an she should be able to view the files. I've sent dozens of these DVDs to different models and i have never heard of a problem.  I also advised her that she should get used to handling RAW files as I believe most photogs shoot in that format (please tell me if you guys agree).  Then after several texts she said something about it being not her job to convert files. She's the model and I'm the photographer an I'm waisting her time.  If she asked nicely, I would have actually gone back and converted all (I think over 400 images I think) images to JPEg but thought she was being so rude that I told her lets just go our separate ways.

Am I being unreasonable?  I really feel like I am not being unreasonable. I'd love to hear from models and photogs and anyone else who had an opinion.

I think you are very very generous, too generous! Different photographers work in different ways. I've worked with some that just load them all onto my USB straight after the shoot and others that give me 5-10 retouched images.

In saying that.... I will only ever use the very best 1 or 2 images from a shoot. While yes I have received over 400+ photos there is no way that I will use all of them and I don't expect them. I've had photographers who have sent me 5 of the best retouched images from the shoot (and I happily sign model releases and receive image license to display any image online to be low res and watermarked, and the high res for personal print portfolio only). And I am pretty happy with that. Because honestly... I have no real use for 400 different angles of my face and the same sets of clothing lol

In saying that, while JPG is easier to deal with and you probably should have given her those, if she didn't sign a release and that was part of the agreement you don't owe her anything as she didn't hold up her end of the deal You're allowed to be a bit stricter imo!

Good luck

John Choi wrote:
Thank you Caitin, it's nice to hear that from a model.  The only other model who responded if I didn't overlook anyone said I was an idiot and misspelled "you're". 

I feel much better.  But based on I think a majority of the posts so far, I probably should have done more to prevent the misunderstanding in the first place.  So no more mr nice guy?

No! stay Nice! don't ever let others issues become yours and change the special who you are.
Not everyone is going to understand each other. this probably isn't the last time it will happen. You just brush your knees off and learn something from it.
I would say maybe one small thing as hard as it would have been(with her attitude) would have been to ask what file format she is used to working with. Maybe that is the one thing to always ask in the future.
As far as her flaking and getting a little weird it could have been a number of things not related to you at all. Someone might of been filling her head with crap. maybe pressure from a boyfriend that was jealous of her modeling. Who knows, but one thing is for sure its not you. So don't beat yourself up over it. Be good to You!

John Choi wrote:
I also advised her that she should get used to handling RAW files as I believe most photogs shoot in that format (please tell me if you guys agree). Then after several texts she said something about it being not her job to convert files. She's the model and I'm the photographer an I'm waisting her time.  If she asked nicely, I would have actually gone back and converted all (I think over 400 images I think) images to JPEg but thought she was being so rude that I told her lets just go our separate ways.

Actually I disagree.  I don't believe "most" photographers shoot in RAW (I don't!)  and especially ... NOT ALL photographers are going to give her RAW files anyway! 

We've already had some heated threads regarding shooting RAW vs. JPEG in the Photographers section of the forum in the past.  It's not worth going over that territory again, but the assumption that "all" photographers would shoot RAW and give the model those RAW files is more than a stretch.  I give the model JPEGS that have been corrected, reduced and watermarked.  I don't often give "all" the images either ... that depends on the agreement I have with each individual model.

Some have called you overly generous ... I say that is your business what you give the model.  I'm just telling you that not all models are going to want all the images and/or in RAW.  Better luck next time.

John Choi wrote:

I suppose I should stop giving out all the pics.  My main reason for doing so is to help the model really see herself in a photo to help her to become a better model.  And since I don't have my name on it, I don't really care that it gets out even though it's not my best work.  I am only protective of my edited work.  I don't know, it's just a bunch of data bits.  I guess I should be more protective.

I understand that, that is why a booker may review a set with a model after a test shoot.  Still it's not every image and there is someone there to explain it to them.  I realize not every model is agency signed but I don't think a brand new model will get much from a few hundred images.  Sure she may pick the obvious bad ones but without the aid of an expert mentor or booker the review is going to be hit or miss.

John Choi wrote:
My main reason for doing so is to help the model really see herself in a photo to help her to become a better model.

It still doesn't make any sense to give the RAW files. Are her poses better in RAW-Res that couldn't be gained from a smaller more manageable JPG?

And maybe the reason the other models haven't had problems opening them is because they had help from someone else?

John Choi wrote:
When I emailed her some images she replied with "OMG I love these!"  So I was happy. We even scheduled a second shoot.

If I had a nickel for every time a model said they loved the images but never put a single one in their port or talked of a second shoot that never happened, I could afford a lot more gear,

why wouldn't you ever give out raw unedited files?  I would guess it's to protect your property?  I guess I'm just not at that stage yet.

Show the world your very best* as artists and writers the world over do.

Show the world everything and you look like a Facebook Friend.



*Selected and edited jpg or two.

Loki Studio wrote:
Model's interest and passion for photo shoots can sometimes change quickly.  Stay focused on your own portfolio, find rewards in your own work, and avoid the drama of others.  Everything else is a distraction to get where you want to go.

This. It's true for everyone in the industry, to a certain extent, but mostly those who do not have to actually invest a tooon of money in what they're doing, in order to get started... like young, newbie models. (Photographers need an expensive camera. MUA/hair people need expensive kits... and schooling. Models need.... themselves... maybe something out of their closets.)

Chuckarelei wrote:

Yes, you are being unreasonable. Many people do not know what RAW format files are. Just like if she poses for you in a corrugated box, you have to read her mind and figure how to decode the visual puzzle in order to see her without the box.

Make sense?

Well said.