*shrugs*
certain ethnicities excel in different things;
fashion, sports, entertainment, medical, technology, or service industries.
82% in that fashion show were white,..
in 2011 83% of players in the NBA were not white.
no biggie.
hopefully the best rise to the top, and deserve their hard earned success.
thats something that should be appreciated by all regardless of backgrounds.
It's funny... Jezebel is complaining about "white" models in the majority at FW... yet their front cover is an Asian model:
This ratio has been relatively constant for many years... and is somehow not real news to me.
The fashion industry has been critizised for underemploying ethnic models for a long time, because they are basing their selection on the demographic they are aiming at for sales.
However, if you look at Mara Hoffman for example... she had so many ethnic diverse models in her show... way above average... it was great and refreshing to see!
The article makes a reference to the shows with the most ethnic diversity... and out of the 20 shows, that I personally covered, 7 are mentioned with a higher content of ethnic diversity..., guess that's over a third of the shows that I have been involved in and affects my experience of FW!
Has anyone thought that maybe it's difficult for other races to fit those stringent standards? Asian women are usually not tall enough and Latino and African American ladies tend to have more booty. I think that would explain the disproportional ratio.
Miroslava Svoboda wrote: Has anyone thought that maybe it's difficult for other races to fit those stringent standards? Asian women are usually not tall enough and Latino and African American ladies tend to have more booty. I think that would explain the disproportional ratio.
No... that is not the reason, because in NY the amount of ethnic diverse models that fit the standard runway requirements are more than abundant.
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,028
Beverly Hills, California, US
The world has always had a fetish for white skin as we see in mythology. Cortez and his invaders were initially mistaken for Gods because of their pallor. In Polynesia Captain Cook and his sailors were called goblins as the spirits who came out at night were white, hence Pakeha in Maori.
As for beauty, we have the authority of a pope: when he first saw fair-skinned Anglo-Saxon boys put on sale at the slave market in Rome, he exclaimed: Non Angli, sed angeli – "They are not Angles, but angels". He also sent a mission to convert them, inspired by the beauty he saw.
Though the fair may be ungodly to much of the world the skin colour appeared supernatural. It is more recent in the human record than dark skin. Just as blue eyes first made their appearance 8000 years ago and is more recent than brown eyes, and blonde hair according to DNA research about eleven thousand years ago, many millienium after the appearance of brown hair, and blonde hair appears to be the result of sex selection in Northern lands.
The hair variation is rather extraordinary amongst fair peoples. Celtic Red, Welsh dark like Catherine Zeta, brunette with auburn highlights, blonde, and variations of blonde, and when combined with the eye colour: blue (Much of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden used to have a vast propenderance of blue eyes), and then there's the real gem: green eyes, very rare, and the sometimes bewitching hazel. I have hazel eyes and in the morning they are sometimes gold and in the evening green.
To reduce fair peoples to the idea that is unfair that they dominate fashion and beauty is to invite this retort: "Sorry, baby, in the world of mythology we're magical-looking and supernatural. Be afraid."
Garry k
Posts: 25,156
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Paolo Diavolo wrote: *shrugs*
certain ethnicities excel in different things;
fashion, sports, entertainment, medical, technology, or service industries.
82% in that fashion show were white,..
in 2011 83% of players in the NBA were not white.
no biggie.
hopefully the best rise to the top, and deserve their hard earned success.
thats something that should be appreciated by all regardless of backgrounds.
why do some people keep comparing athletics with fashion modelling ?
One is based on objective and measurable skills on the part of the player the other on the subjective values of those who are hiring
To make it in the NBA it doesnt matter what color your skin is you just need to be super tall and have a specific althletic skill set
"White Men can't dunk , but certainly Non White Models can walk a runway
Garry k
Posts: 25,156
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
udor wrote: It's funny... Jezebel is complaining about "white" models in the majority at FW... yet their front cover is an Asian model:
This ratio has been relatively constant for many years... and is somehow not real news to me.
If they are complaining about too many white models wouldn't it seem that they are trying to promote the cause of non white models ?
I guess in recnt years there had been some indication that the industry was becoming more diversified racially , and NYFW was held up as an example of this
Garry k
Posts: 25,156
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
LA StarShooter wrote: The world has always had a fetish for white skin as we see in mythology. Cortez and his invaders were initially mistaken for Gods because of their pallor. In Polynesia Captain Cook and his sailors were called goblins as the spirits who came out at night were white, hence Pakeha in Maori.
As for beauty, we have the authority of a pope: when he first saw fair-skinned Anglo-Saxon boys put on sale at the slave market in Rome, he exclaimed: Non Angli, sed angeli – "They are not Angles, but angels". He also sent a mission to convert them, inspired by the beauty he saw.
Though the fair may be ungodly to much of the world the skin colour appeared supernatural. It is more recent in the human record than dark skin. Just as blue eyes first made their appearance 8000 years ago and is more recent than brown eyes, and blonde hair according to DNA research about eleven thousand years ago, many millienium after the appearance of brown hair, and blonde hair appears to be the result of sex selection in Northern lands.
The hair variation is rather extraordinary amongst fair peoples. Celtic Red, Welsh dark like Catherine Zeta, brunette with auburn highlights, blonde, and variations of blonde, and when combined with the eye colour: blue (Much of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden used to have a vast propenderance of blue eyes), and then there's the real gem: green eyes, very rare, and the sometimes bewitching hazel. I have hazel eyes and in the morning they are sometimes gold and in the evening green.
To reduce fair peoples to the idea that is unfair that they dominate fashion and beauty is to invite this retort: "Sorry, baby, in the world of mythology we're magical-looking and supernatural. Be afraid."
Please don't bring the Pope and his interest in little boys into this thread , thanks
Working non Caucasian models have spoken at length about the difficulties/biases they face in the fashion industry, even when they meet all standards.
It's not readily apparent, based solely on the statistics which factors might be skewing the numbers one way or the other......but fashion does definitely have some issues to work out regarding race (see the repeated fumbles/shitstorms created by less than well though out editorial e.g. Lara Stone in blackface for French Vogue, "Haute Mess" in Italian Vogue, the "slave" earrings incident which I think was also Italian Vogue)
This article does a better job of discussing the topic IMHO:
Miroslava Svoboda wrote: Has anyone thought that maybe it's difficult for other races to fit those stringent standards? Asian women are usually not tall enough and Latino and African American ladies tend to have more booty. I think that would explain the disproportional ratio.
Nope there are plenty, its about marketability. The minor change is just that, minor. There have been very few models of color in fashion. Many advertisers fear an identifiable ethnic model will associate their brand with that group and limit their market. I can't say they are right or wrong, its no doubt what their market research has found.
So don't blame the fashion industry for giving customers what they want; You can blame people for having a narrow view of the world if it makes you feel better. Things won't change until consumers make it - with their dollars.
Paolo Diavolo wrote: *shrugs*
certain ethnicities excel in different things;
fashion, sports, entertainment, medical, technology, or service industries.
82% in that fashion show were white,..
in 2011 83% of players in the NBA were not white.
no biggie.
hopefully the best rise to the top, and deserve their hard earned success.
thats something that should be appreciated by all regardless of backgrounds.
Do you think that if you quantified modeling skills the models who were hired would all have more skill than ones who weren't but wanted to be? I doubt it.
It's a question of whether it's acceptable to select models based on their appearance.
The comment about certain ethnicities excelling is a racist one, even if it was said with a good intent. There are other more socially acceptable ways to communicate that if you're willing to take the time.
LA StarShooter wrote: and then there's the real gem: green eyes, very rare
Back to the OP...
Interesting note.
Begs the question, (I'm studying HR!) -- is this a discrimination issue?
Can it be proven discrimination is taking place? If so, could a lawsuit be filed against the fashion industry?
MC Photo wrote: Do you think that if you quantified modeling skills the models who were hired would all have more skill than ones who weren't but wanted to be? I doubt it.
It's a question of whether it's acceptable to select models based on their appearance.
The comment about certain ethnicities excelling is a racist one, even if it was said with a good intent. There are other more socially acceptable ways to communicate that if you're willing to take the time.
+1000!
And not just their appearance, but specifically, race and skin color.
Is this protected under Title VII in the U.S.?
Are we saying that llamas were selected based on appearance? I find it appalling that 68% of llamas this year were brunette compared to 71% just two years ago. And only 4% were natural redheads.
This is a concerning trend and clearly discriminatory against redheads.
Maybe we can form some type of equal rights group...
Michael Pandolfo wrote: Are we saying that models were selected based on appearance? I find it appalling that 68% of models this year were brunette compared to 71% just two years ago. And only 4% were natural redheads.
This is a concerning trend and clearly discriminatory against redheads.
Maybe we can form some type of equal rights group...
Hair color isn't a protected class in the U.S.
Race is.
Or do these laws not apply to those who work in the fashion industry? And if so, how and why are they exempt?
Please enlighten me - no snark - I'm truly interested!
Lana Belle
Posts: 38
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Should we even be surprised at this point?
White models even homely looking ones are going to automatically get more work than the most aestethically pleasing Black/Hispanic/Asian models. For example Beverly Johnson and Lauren Hutton. An ethnic models has to be twice as pretty, talented, and just plain good to get any work.
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,133
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
e m i l y wrote:
Hair color isn't a protected class in the U.S.
Race is.
Or do these laws not apply to those who work in the fashion industry? And if so, how and why are they exempt?
Please enlighten me - no snark - I'm truly interested!
I am not familiar with the specific laws in the US (or Canada for that matter) but my experience when working on film and television is that acting roles are essentially excluded from the laws, or at the very least a great deal of latitude is given. Generally speaking when casting actors for leading roles you could limit to whatever race(s) you want. As you get down into supporting roles it is preferred that you try to cast to reflect the general makeup of the population you are trying to depict. But this means you can still cast mostly white people if you are setting your story in a white community. And of course if your lead is Tom Cruise you aren't likely to cast Asians as his parents and African Americans as his siblings (unless the story is that he and his brothers were adopted)
Because casting models is mostly about appearance I suspect similar exceptions are extended. Ultimately the models selected for the ad or runway are most likely a reflection of the people the advertiser is speaking to.
I can imagine some cases where race should not be a factor - for instance for fit modelling.
Or do these laws not apply to those who work in the fashion industry? And if so, how and why are they exempt?
Please enlighten me - no snark - I'm truly interested!
Protected class? I missed that memo. Here's a current White fashion model who might shed some light on this: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/17/opinion/r … ostpopular Where do I sign up for this protection though? Somebody has to inform the police as well.
Do You view China as a "melting pot " of ethnic diversity and do you view China as a democracy ( as the US is considered ) and if so - do you realize that the population of non asian people living in that country is zero percent statistically speaking ..see this chart
Further ( in a democracy such as the US ) from an social justice /employment equity perspective -shouldnt everyone have equal opportunity for employment based on ability,skills ( and relative beauty in the case of models ) not skin color - and shouldnt that equality be visibly apparent in the industry
e m i l y wrote: Hair color isn't a protected class in the U.S.
Race is.
Or do these laws not apply to those who work in the fashion industry? And if so, how and why are they exempt?
Please enlighten me - no snark - I'm truly interested!
Tony Lawrence wrote: Protected class? I missed that memo. Here's a current White fashion model who might shed some light on this: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/17/opinion/r … ostpopular Where do I sign up for this protection though? Somebody has to inform the police as well.
Can you answer my questions or are you just being snarky?
In any other industry if one were to discriminate on race there would be a lawsuit. I'm not being incredulous, it was just a question that I thought was interesting, perhaps in vain as my interest is in HR.
Nevermind.
This pertains to actors, not models, but still interesting.
Although the law allows intentional discrimination (e.g., choosing a worker by sex or age) when a “bona fide occupational qualification” (BFOQ), as when a particular lead actor must display these traits, there’s no BFOQ exception for “race.” So, unless “only a woman” or “only someone under 39” can do a job, then it might be okay to discriminate under the BFOQ exception. However, if you remember The Crying Game or Boys Don’t Cry, maybe sex isn’t a BFOQ for lead actors. And it never is legal to choose an actor by race.
e m i l y wrote: Hair color isn't a protected class in the U.S.
Race is.
Or do these laws not apply to those who work in the fashion industry? And if so, how and why are they exempt?
Please enlighten me - no snark - I'm truly interested!
Tony Lawrence wrote: Protected class? I missed that memo. Here's a current White fashion model who might shed some light on this: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/17/opinion/r … ostpopular Where do I sign up for this protection though? Somebody has to inform the police as well.
Can you answer my questions or are you just being snarky?
In any other industry if one were to discriminate on race there would be a lawsuit. I'm not being incredulous, it was just a question that I thought was interesting, perhaps in vain as my interest is in HR.
This pertains to actors, not models, but still interesting.
I don't know any Black folks who feel protected. You said race is a protected class. Somebody let Trayvon Martin know. The designers in NY, Paris, Milan and elsewhere are free to hire the models they want. We are also free to criticize and talk about those choices. Minority women spend millions on designer clothing and my guess is some of those who attend the fashion weeks might enjoy seeing a few more sista's, Asians and Hispanic models. The video I linked does a better job of explaining how some feel. Lets not forget that years past there were more minority women used. That number continues to fall. Is beauty and sex appeal based solely on European standards? Should people speak up?
This isn't about laws. I don't feel we need quotas. However is it fair to talk about? Why is it when Black people discuss race we are unreasonable or complainers. Not that you said that. Watch the video if you haven't.
Tony Lawrence wrote: I don't know any Black folks who feel protected. You said race is a protected class. Somebody let Trayvon Martin know. The designers in NY, Paris, Milan and elsewhere are free to hire the models they want. We are also free to criticize and talk about those choices. Minority women spend millions on designer clothing and my guess is some of those who attend the fashion weeks might enjoy seeing a few more sista's, Asians and Hispanic models. The video I linked does a better job of explaining how some feel. Lets not forget that years past there were more minority women used. That number continues to fall. Is beauty and sex appeal based solely on European standards? Should people speak up?
This isn't about laws. I don't feel we need quotas. However is it fair to talk about? Why is it when Black people discuss race we are unreasonable or complainers. Not that you said that. Watch the video if you haven't.
Garry k
Posts: 25,156
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I don't know any Black folks who feel protected. You said race is a protected class. Somebody let Trayvon Martin know. The designers in NY, Paris, Milan and elsewhere are free to hire the models they want. We are also free to criticize and talk about those choices. Minority women spend millions on designer clothing and my guess is some of those who attend the fashion weeks might enjoy seeing a few more sista's, Asians and Hispanic models. The video I linked does a better job of explaining how some feel. Lets not forget that years past there were more minority women used. That number continues to fall. Is beauty and sex appeal based solely on European standards? Should people speak up?
This isn't about laws. I don't feel we need quotas. However is it fair to talk about? Why is it when Black people discuss race we are unreasonable or complainers. Not that you said that. Watch the video if you haven't.
and what if you are a non caucasion model seeking work such as the young lady in this video doc
"Renee Thompson is trying to make it as a top fashion model in New York. She's got the looks, the walk and the drive. But she’s a black model in a world where white women represent the standard of beauty. Agencies rarely hire black models. And when they do, they want them to look “like white girls dipped in chocolate.”
When it comes to fashion, it's about "legacy", which is what Cameron speaks about. (I posted that video on my Facebook some time ago.)
Still doesn't mean it's right, you know? I think we agree.
I didn't get that from her video. She spoke about White privilege, image and beauty. She touched on the thousands of Black people stopped by the police for example. Beauty in most of the world is represented by a thin, tall, White woman. Sure we have Beyonce and Hallie and Tyra but look at most fashion magazines or who's on the runways. Do you recall her clothing change at the start? Her point was she could change people's perceptions in a few seconds. Minorities don't have that luxury. I don't want designers feeling pressured to include a few tokens. I do want more of us to be honest about how we feel. Take a look here:
e m i l y wrote: When it comes to fashion, it's about "legacy", which is what Cameron speaks about. (I posted that video on my Facebook some time ago.)
Still doesn't mean it's right, you know? I think we agree.
Tony Lawrence wrote: I didn't get that from her video. She spoke about White privilege, image and beauty.
The real way that I became a model is that I won a genetic lottery, and I am the recipient of a legacy. What do I mean by legacy? Well, for the past few centuries we have defined beauty not just as health and youth and symmetry that we're biologically programmed to admire, but also as tall, slender figures, and femininity and white skin. And this is a legacy that was built for me, and it's a legacy that I've been cashing in on.
Tony Lawrence wrote: I don't want designers feeling pressured to include a few tokens. I do want more of us to be honest about how we feel.
Me either, and to me it's not about affirmative action, it's about the hope for ending prejudice and racial discrimination in an industry that actively discriminates. That's how I feel about it anyway.
Hmmm... okay. Legacy is privilege. Its not something she worked for. Its not something she studied for. She's a beautiful, thin, tall White women. There are hundreds of her counterparts who are not White and who will never get a chance to step a toe on a runway or do a real fashion shoot. She was candid. She acknowledge her success was largely based on race. Legacy is when you born into wealth or privilege. Would you agree that Black models are underrepresented in fashion? Not that there is a easy fix but just that fact.
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