Tony Lawrence wrote:
Would you agree that Black llamas are underrepresented in fashion?   Not that there is a easy fix but just that fact.

Yes, but the real question is do they *deserve* to be under-represented?  Does the "tall, thin, white woman" *deserve* to prevail -- almost every time?   (Cameron expresses she "gets what she doesn't deserve" in her own opinion...)

It's not right, IMO, and I think Camreon acknowledges that very eloquently.

e m i l y wrote:

Yes, but the real question is do they *deserve* to be under-represented?  It's not right, IMO, and I think Camreon acknowledges that very eloquently.

That's a hard one I think.   Lets take you.   I think you are a beautiful woman.   What if you and a Black woman were up for the same job.   Should she be hired because she's Black?   Can we change people's perceptions of beauty?   Lets play a numbers game.   Black people make up around 14% of the population.   Of that number around 8% are female.  (rough math) and of that number how many are young enough, tall enough, thin enough to do runway or print or even want too.   There are a lot more White models.  There are even fewer Asian models then Black models.   What may start to happen is we may see more Hispanic models.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
That's a hard one I think.   Lets take you.   I think you are a beautiful woman.   What if you and a Black woman were up for the same job.   Should she be hired because she's Black?   Can we change people's perceptions of beauty?   Lets play a numbers game.   Black people make up around 14% of the population.   Of that number around 8% are female.  (rough math) and of that number how many are young enough, tall enough, thin enough to do runway or print or even want too.   There are a lot more White models.  There are even fewer Asian models then Black models.   What may start to happen is we may see more Hispanic models.

No, it's not about affirmative action - although I'd argue that many castings, particularly for "extras" edge on it because "diversity" is such a buzzword.  Somehow, though, diversity is going out like a fad in NYFW. 

Markets like NYC tend to be more racially diverse, then you consider the population of fashion models who attend castings, and I'd argue the populations are skewed from the general population demographics.   I would concur that the number of viable minority models still probably is less than the number of viable white models, however.   

I get that perhaps who is chosen reflects population demographics.  But as you said, everyone - minorities, whites - participates in fashion, but it's clear the industry chooses not to represent everyone, some designers not even selecting one minority model.   If race is such a superficial thing, then isn't it that much more important that an industry that focuses solely on appearance embrace it and represent it?  Oh wait, I forgot, it's fashion and there's this 'legacy'.   Can't we start seeing and accepting beauty in different ways besides the "legacy"?   I think that's the challenge.

I wish I could just copy and paste this whole discussion for my case study assignment this week... LOL   This has been more fascinating and engaging than my class discussions on the topic of discrimination!

Garry k wrote:
Sorry but I have to ask



[snip]

Further ( in a democracy such as the US ) from an social justice /employment equity perspective -shouldnt everyone have equal opportunity for employment based on ability,skills ( and relative beauty in the case of models )  not skin color - and shouldnt that equality be visibly apparent in the industry

I think I see the problem: you've mistaken the US for a democracy when it is more or less accurately a republic (now that corporations have the same rights as humans this may no longer be 100% but we can pretend for the sake of this discussion). Also you seem to believe that, the form of government is also an economic system. I can assure you that we are a purely capitalist system and in such a system the only ability with any value is the ability to make money for the company. While the companies assessment of value potential may be colored by race (pun acknowledged) what counts is the "perceived" ability to sell shit to rich people.
I am not saying that racism does not exist, I am not saying that the system is not inherently racist. I saying that looking at the models at fashion week and saying "there should be more black models" is stupid.
If you want more brown faces on the runway put more brown faces in the audience.

NewBoldPhoto wrote:

I think I see the problem: you've mistaken the US for a democracy when it is more or less accurately a republic (now that corporations have the same rights as humans this may no longer be 100% but we can pretend for the sake of ....

and i would counter that with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

which rates the US as more a democracy than not

Garry k wrote:
and i would counter that with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

which rates the US as more a democracy than not

Yes, but sadly they define a democracy as a egalitarian state with a representative form of government.  It also suggests that both Norway and Sweden are more democratic than the US... any guesses as to the complexion of the models at Oslo Fashion Week? Or Stockholm?
Consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic

ETA: according to your sighted source Canada is more of a democracy than the USA... what percentage of minorities walk the runways in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver Fashion weeks? Feel free to include Winnipeg, Calgary and Moose jaw  if it helps your case.

E-ETA: Allow me to reiterate: To change the racial inequalities in this county (this probably holds true for any and all countries) one must change the distribution of wealth in this country.

Garry k wrote:

and i would counter that with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

which rates the US as more a democracy than not

I counter with this



which shows the US as being a Police State

Star wrote:

I counter with this



which shows the US as being a Police State

That is 90% drug war related. And while I think the drug war is misguided, the prison statistic is not an indictment of the overall culture.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I don't know any Black folks who feel protected.   You said race is a protected class.   Somebody let Trayvon Martin know.   The designers in NY, Paris, Milan and elsewhere are free to hire the models they want.   We are also free to criticize and talk about those choices.  Minority women spend millions on designer clothing and my guess is some of those who attend the fashion weeks might enjoy seeing a few more sista's, Asians and Hispanic models.   The video I linked does a better job of explaining how some feel.   Lets not forget that years past there were more minority women used.   That number continues to fall.   Is beauty and sex appeal based solely on European standards?   Should people speak up?   

This isn't about laws.   I don't feel we need quotas.   However is it fair to talk about?   Why is it when Black people discuss race we are unreasonable or complainers.   Not that you said that.   Watch the video if you haven't.

The amazing thing is that will all the grandstanding and efforts at shocking the audience or getting everyone to talk about a show, no one has thought to hire all black models and no white models for a FW runway show. That would provoke an enormous amount of discussion.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
This isn't about laws.   I don't feel we need quotas.   However is it fair to talk about?   Why is it when Black people discuss race we are unreasonable or complainers.   Not that you said that.   Watch the video if you haven't.

People are uncomfortable with emotional communication. Look at what happens when someone yells or cries on Survivor, they are always voted off next. People simply don't like to be around it.

I don't think it's realistic to experience a lifetime of racisim and not feel emotional about it, so I think a dialog is very difficult. When someone expresses something in an emotional way, the listener shuts down, and that makes the situation even more emotional. For the most part, everyone avoids the disscussion until something provokes it - meaning it's always going to be an emotional discussion.

The only way to be able to talk about it would be a planned, structured context that repeats. Maybe there should be racial education classes in schools just like sex ed.

Someone who doesn't experience racism has no way to understand how widespread it is in life. I don't mean "geographically" I mean in ways that are not obvious.

One of the biggest eye openers for me was an example a friend of mine gave me. He's a pretty well known musician and at one point was touring with the biggest musical act that was on the road. He'd meet lots of great people and have good personal connections and often get dinner invitations. More than once he went to someone's home and they'd prepared a meal that based on stereotypes. I don't remember if people actually said "We made this for you because we know you will like it." or "We made this because we wanted you to feel comfortable." He took it the right way and could see that it was good intentioned, almost like "nice racism" but it was still racist behavior. I would imagine that it made him a little uncomfortable because it's a reminder that these people are seeing you as different enough that they need to change the menu. I'd bet that the people who did this wouldn't consider themselves racist. I think that's probably the first thing that made me aware that it's possible to be racist in a way that's blatant way that we think of, and that good intentions can be racist.

I bet there's a long list of things like this that people experience every day and it's not just the "bad racism" that's an issue, but the constant racism that's the bigger problem.


There's another thing that makes this difficult too which is that it's possible to experience actions that are consistent with racism, but are not due to racism. I think I'm not going to go too deep into this idea because it's very hard to express accurately, but it's something that makes the discussion difficult for a lot of reasons.

Ultimately there has to be a lot of education before it's possible to have constructive dialog. Or there has to be a strong personal, and trusting relationship where people can listen non-reactively.


I think the answer to your question is that it's a very difficult conversation to have. In some cases there is complaining, and there's nothing wrong with that. In others the accusation of complaining is simply projection from someone who's uncomfortable for any number of reasons - guilt, hearing emotion if there is any, or maybe the just are unsure how to act in that context. And if they haven't had similar experiences, are they even capable of understanding?


Who knows, maybe for the next generation who grows up with the internet it will more natural for them to interact with someone for who the individual is, what they say and think, because they're used to not having visual or aural cues to set their stereotyping off.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I didn't get that from her video.   She spoke about White privilege, image and beauty.   She touched on the thousands of Black people stopped by the police for example.   Beauty in most of the world is represented by a thin, tall, White woman.   Sure we have Beyonce and Hallie and Tyra but look at most fashion magazines or who's on the runways.   Do you recall her clothing change at the start?   Her point was she could change people's perceptions in a few seconds.   Minorities don't have that luxury.   I don't want designers feeling pressured to include a few tokens.   I do want more of us to be honest about how we feel.   Take a look here:

http://www.dnamodels.com/women-main-board   How many minority women do you see?

Tokens just makes it worse. It just highlights the issue and lets people think they've done something that they haven't.

Not that I have any better ideas.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... okay.   Legacy is privilege.   Its not something she worked for.   Its not something she studied for.   She's a beautiful, thin, tall White women.   There are hundreds of her counterparts who are not White and who will never get a chance to  step a toe on a runway or do a real fashion shoot.   She was candid.   She acknowledge her success was largely based on race.   Legacy is when you born into wealth or privilege.   Would you agree that Black models are underrepresented in fashion?   Not that there is a easy fix but just that fact.

I don't think you can answer that question without a definition of fashion.

I don't know that all clothing is fashion or that fashion is even relevant. That what's happening at fashion week is simply "white fashion" and that in "black fashion" they're not under represented. I'd bet that in fashion week there are more female models than male models and more women's clothing than men's clothing.

Are black men underrepresented in extreme sports? Or is that simply a reflection of choices that are influenced by someone's surroundings when they grow up?

On the other hand, to make your point, I went to find a "fashion" example that I figured would be 100% black models. If you got to http://www.seanjohn.com/ that first photo makes your point perfectly.

Really what it comes down to is that black people are underrepresented in banking, which influences everything. That's probably directly related to "legacy" and if you trace things back to when legacy wealth began in this country, it was during the most inequal times and more time is needed to build that type of wealth. We're really in the first generation with athletes and entertainers earning enough money that they will be in a position to live off of capital rather than labor. That capital takes several generations to grow to the size where it's truly influential.

Star wrote:
Devil's Advocate- maybe it is a lighting issue?

Yeah, that's probably it.

e m i l y wrote:

No, it's not about affirmative action - although I'd argue that many castings, particularly for "extras" edge on it because "diversity" is such a buzzword.  Somehow, though, diversity is going out like a fad in NYFW. 

Markets like NYC tend to be more racially diverse, then you consider the population of fashion models who attend castings, and I'd argue the populations are skewed from the general population demographics.   I would concur that the number of viable minority models still probably is less than the number of viable white models, however.   

I get that perhaps who is chosen reflects population demographics.  But as you said, everyone - minorities, whites - participates in fashion, but it's clear the industry chooses not to represent everyone, some designers not even selecting one minority model.   If race is such a superficial thing, then isn't it that much more important that an industry that focuses solely on appearance embrace it and represent it?  Oh wait, I forgot, it's fashion and there's this 'legacy'.   Can't we start seeing and accepting beauty in different ways besides the "legacy"?   I think that's the challenge.

I wish I could just copy and paste this whole discussion for my case study assignment this week... LOL   This has been more fascinating and engaging than my class discussions on the topic of discrimination!

There are more than enough attractive black women with model proportions in NYC to fill every model position for every designer during fashion week.

Star wrote:

I counter with this



which shows the US as being a Police State

No it doesn't.

That shows the percentage in jail. You need to compare that to how many should be in jail. Maybe instead of being 1% of the population it should be 5% and we're underpolicing relative to the rest of the world.

That's not necessarily what I believe, but that chart doesn't have any meaning to what it shows. It's just a statistic on it's own.

MC Photo wrote:
On the other hand, to make your point, I went to find a "fashion" example that I figured would be 100% black models. If you got to http://www.seanjohn.com/ that first photo makes your point perfectly.

Philip Treacy did that in London.

MC Photo wrote:

People are uncomfortable with emotional communication. Look at what happens when someone yells or cries on Survivor, they are always voted off next. People simply don't like to be around it.

I don't think it's realistic to experience a lifetime of racisim and not feel emotional about it, so I think a dialog is very difficult. When someone expresses something in an emotional way, the listener shuts down, and that makes the situation even more emotional. For the most part, everyone avoids the disscussion until something provokes it - meaning it's always going to be an emotional discussion.

The only way to be able to talk about it would be a planned, structured context that repeats. Maybe there should be racial education classes in schools just like sex ed.

Someone who doesn't experience racism has no way to understand how widespread it is in life. I don't mean "geographically" I mean in ways that are not obvious.

One of the biggest eye openers for me was an example a friend of mine gave me. He's a pretty well known musician and at one point was touring with the biggest musical act that was on the road. He'd meet lots of great people and have good personal connections and often get dinner invitations. More than once he went to someone's home and they'd prepared a meal that based on stereotypes. I don't remember if people actually said "We made this for you because we know you will like it." or "We made this because we wanted you to feel comfortable." He took it the right way and could see that it was good intentioned, almost like "nice racism" but it was still racist behavior. I would imagine that it made him a little uncomfortable because it's a reminder that these people are seeing you as different enough that they need to change the menu. I'd bet that the people who did this wouldn't consider themselves racist. I think that's probably the first thing that made me aware that it's possible to be racist in a way that's blatant way that we think of, and that good intentions can be racist.

I bet there's a long list of things like this that people experience every day and it's not just the "bad racism" that's an issue, but the constant racism that's the bigger problem.


There's another thing that makes this difficult too which is that it's possible to experience actions that are consistent with racism, but are not due to racism. I think I'm not going to go too deep into this idea because it's very hard to express accurately, but it's something that makes the discussion difficult for a lot of reasons.

Ultimately there has to be a lot of education before it's possible to have constructive dialog. Or there has to be a strong personal, and trusting relationship where people can listen non-reactively.


I think the answer to your question is that it's a very difficult conversation to have. In some cases there is complaining, and there's nothing wrong with that. In others the accusation of complaining is simply projection from someone who's uncomfortable for any number of reasons - guilt, hearing emotion if there is any, or maybe the just are unsure how to act in that context. And if they haven't had similar experiences, are they even capable of understanding?


Who knows, maybe for the next generation who grows up with the internet it will more natural for them to interact with someone for who the individual is, what they say and think, because they're used to not having visual or aural cues to set their stereotyping off.

Well stated and I agree.   When Blacks talk about racism many White Americans roll their eyes or think.   He/she is playing the race card.   Are Black folks too sensitive, sometimes.   Are we always wrong, no.   Lets talk this discussion.   Someone pointed out the NBA was mostly Black.   While true its based on the visible skill of those involved.   Its hard to ignore talent when its in your face.   However the perceptions of beauty are different.   Should more minority women be used?   After all the face of America is changing.   I don't think most White people are outwardly bigoted.   Most would be disgusted by a David Duke or Skin head spouting some racist crap.   Yet so many hold on to bigoted views of Blacks.   They accept all the negative stereotypes.

A member made a great point.   I want young Black women to value education and personal achievement over a short career of taking photos and walking down a runway.   They could be doctors or scientists or owners of business.   Why chase a dream based primarily on something as superficial as beauty.   Heck instead of being on the stage those girls could own and or work for the companies that have their representatives in the audience.

Star wrote:
I counter with this



which shows the US as being a Police State

Total fail.

All police forces and judiciaries are not equal.

I shouldn't need to precise but I would propose that the people in Russia and Iran who were killed by their own people before arriving in prison is a significant challenge to those statistics.

Star wrote:
Devil's Advocate- maybe it is a lighting issue?

MC Photo wrote:
Yeah, that's probably it.

Nope, that's the most unlikely issue!

udor wrote:

Star wrote:
Devil's Advocate- maybe it is a lighting issue?

Nope, that's the most unlikely issue!

Thus the use of sarcasm.

MC Photo wrote:
Thus the use of sarcasm.

Ooops... 

                                           

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... okay.   Legacy is privilege.   Its not something she worked for.   Its not something she studied for.   She's a beautiful, thin, tall White women.   There are hundreds of her counterparts who are not White and who will never get a chance to  step a toe on a runway or do a real fashion shoot.   She was candid.   She acknowledge her success was largely based on race.   Legacy is when you born into wealth or privilege.   Would you agree that Black models are underrepresented in fashion?   Not that there is a easy fix but just that fact.

Let's not forget... slavery "legally" ended 148 yrs ago but when was it legally and forcibly enforced?  And what long term effects did "slavery" have on those enslaved and their off springs as well as the demented mindset of oppressor?!  

Now, let me make my point... racial equality and or simple GOD given equality for all is relatively new in this country.  They're some who feels a sense of "entitlement" regardless of the industry and refuse to bury the ignorance of "past"!

As a photographer I photograph models/people as deemed fit for my clients and or whom have retained my services.  So, "industry" equality depends on the client's demand and or marketing needs.  And changing such "demands/needs" requires equal standards of quality (quality demands quality) and public demand not skin color aka tokens! IMHO

I found the below video link to be interesting and just wanted to share it... She's white but it relates to the overall subject matter. (equality)

http://style.time.com/2012/11/20/male-m … e-species/

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Well stated and I agree.   When Blacks talk about racism many White Americans roll their eyes or think.   He/she is playing the race card.   Are Black folks too sensitive, sometimes.   Are we always wrong, no.   Lets talk this discussion.   Someone pointed out the NBA was mostly Black.   While true its based on the visible skill of those involved.   Its hard to ignore talent when its in your face.   However the perceptions of beauty are different.   Should more minority women be used?   After all the face of America is changing.   I don't think most White people are outwardly bigoted.   Most would be disgusted by a David Duke or Skin head spouting some racist crap.   Yet so many hold on to bigoted views of Blacks.   They accept all the negative stereotypes.

A member made a great point.   I want young Black women to value education and personal achievement over a short career of taking photos and walking down a runway.   They could be doctors or scientists or owners of business.   Why chase a dream based primarily on something as superficial as beauty.   Heck instead of being on the stage those girls could own and or work for the companies that have their representatives in the audience.

I misread what you wrote at first and it got me thinking about the statement "the NBA is mostly black". It seems like a pretty neutral observation - I can see and I can count, but what the NBA is is "the best players in the world." The scouts don't see race, they seen winners and losers.

They profile as much or more than the police do. That's the entire premise of the Brad Pitt baseball movie. The difference is that race is not part of the criteria.

Once we move into the beauty and bigotry discussions, it gets complicated.

On a broader note, I think most people are both lazy and lack the critical thinking skills to question the validity of statements in general. If someone makes a racist generalization and another person internalizes it, is that second person racist/bigoted or a lazy moron who'd know better the they took a split second to think about it.

In practical terms they are racist because their behavior will be racist when their actions are based on that internalized idea. However, they may not be racist in their beliefs. And, if they'd been taught better critical thinking skills the incorrect generalization wouldn't be affecting their behavior.

So if someone accuses that person of being racist and they say they're not, they're both right. "They're not racist" because they don't have racist beliefs. "They are racist" because of their behavior. These aren't semantic differences even though the come very close. I think one of the problems is that the discussion is often about the wrong thing. We could debate whether or not that person is racist, but it accomplishes nothing. All that can be done is demonstrate to that person how their behavior is racist and demonstrate how someone could genuinely not be racist, but still have racist behavior.

For me the fashion week situation is confusing. I'm pretty sure that the people who make the casting decision are not making it based on "beauty standards". I think they see only seeing people who've been filtered and meet "beauty standards". So what influences their decisions? That I don't know.

I think part must be personal taste and that can be connected to race. If there's a target market, then selecting models who's appearance matches the target market makes sense. I don't think it would be racist to have all black models if you were trying to sell a product only to black people.

Is having a target market racist? I guess it depends on whether race is part of the criteria. If you make the target market based on income, then the racial percentages may not be racist in that they are an accurate reflection of the target market. However they would be reflecting racial issues in other parts of life.

To start, I have no idea what the actual statistics for any of these things are. But it's hard to quantify reality. Just look at DxO mark for how wacky things get when you try to turn reality into a number.

Really fashion week is about money, like the NBA is about winning. I think they only see green. But race has affected the distribution of wealth and the access to capital, so really, in the end it all come back to racial inequality in the banking industry.

Even with the ideal amount of affirmative action, whatever that may be, they type of wealth that leads to influence and power takes generations to build as well as refining the process of passing it from one to another and education on how to handle family wealth and power that's given to you.

For every Paris Hilton, there's several Ivy League trust fund kids you don't hear about who have their act together and are building and continuing the cycle.

So on one hand best case scenario it take generations for the equilibrium to set in. On the other hand, our economic situation is because of a shift away from a labor base to a capital based economy, and that can happen much faster.

Garry k wrote:

Another fellow who obviously can't handle a serious discussion regarding the industry ( the fashion industry that is )

I will respect that you are a relative newbie to the forums and not flame you back

but be aware that we can all read your bio and see your work

Good topic Garry.  Wait a da%n minute... I just agreed with Garry K. (wtf)

Garry k wrote:
82 per cent of the models in this years NYFW were white , with 14 companies ( designers ) employing no models of color for their shows


http://jezebel.com/5985110/new-york-fas … ing-whiter

The numbers on the surface do not mean much without context. The breakdown the article
Models of Color At New York Fashion Week Fall-Winter 2013

Shows and presentations: 151
Total runway spots: 4479
Number given to white models: 3706 (82.7%)
Number given to models of color: 776 (17.3%)
Number given to Latina models:90 (2%)
Number given to Asian models: 409 (9.1%)
Number given to black models: 271 (6%)
Number given to models of other ethnicities: 12 (0.2%

To understand if there is a problem one would have to know the total number of models in each group that actually went on go sees for the spots. For example 776 models of color were hired. If 1000 went out and 776 were placed thats  a 78% placement - pretty high i would say. If there were 11,000 white models who also went for spots and 3706 got spots - 37%, which could be low by comparison of other groups.

Maybe there is a problem, maybe there isn't. The reporting only tells half the story.

The IT industry is male dominated, one of the big reasons for this is that, by comparrison, there are far fewer women that chose that field.

White Lace Studios wrote:

The numbers on the surface do not mean much without context. The breakdown the article
Models of Color At New York Fashion Week Fall-Winter 2013

Shows and presentations: 151
Total runway spots: 4479
Number given to white models: 3706 (82.7%)
Number given to models of color: 776 (17.3%)
Number given to Latina models:90 (2%)
Number given to Asian models: 409 (9.1%)
Number given to black models: 271 (6%)
Number given to models of other ethnicities: 12 (0.2%

To understand if there is a problem one would have to know the total number of models in each group that actually went on go sees for the spots. For example 776 models of color were hired. If 1000 went out and 776 were placed thats  a 78% placement - pretty high i would say. If there were 11,000 white models who also went for spots and 3706 got spots - 37%, which could be low by comparison of other groups.

Maybe there is a problem, maybe there isn't. The reporting only tells half the story.

The IT industry is male dominated, one of the big reasons for this is that, by comparrison, there are far fewer women that chose that field.

If we compare that with the ethnic breakdown of the American population we see that Hispanic or Latin American Models are the most under represented models in NYFW  followed by African American Models . Asian American Models are actually over represented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi … ted_States

Miroslava Svoboda wrote:
Has anyone thought that maybe it's difficult for other races to fit those stringent standards? Asian women are usually not tall enough and Latino and African American ladies tend to have more booty. I think that would explain the disproportional ratio.

*looks at own lack-of-booty in frustration and sobs in corner*

Garry k wrote:

If we compare that with the ethnic breakdown of the American population we see that Hispanic or Latin American Models are the most under represented models in NYFW  followed by African American Models . Asian American Models are actually over represented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi … ted_States

Do you happen to have any stats on the ethnicity of represented models in the US in general?

Saadiq Photography wrote:

Good topic Garry.  Wait a da%n minute... I just agreed with Garry K. (wtf)

LOL... Its a blue moon!